Why has it become so cool to hate India

A_Gupta
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby A_Gupta » 10 May 2003 02:06

Originally posted by Nandu:
Hi, I wasn't aware that Barry Bearak had tracked down one of the Chattisinghpora mass murderers to Pakistan. Can I have a link to or copy of this article? Googling didn't help. Thanks in advance.
Barry Bearak's article in The New York Times Magazine is available at

http://www.sikhreview.org/may2002/chronicle.htm

Not quite what you might expect.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JCage » 10 May 2003 02:16

Originally posted by arindam:
nitin, your post on the LCA helped get things rolling. thanx.
Mention not ! In fact,if you ever skewer these Thapar types again(when they pop up as is their wont),i'll gladly provide more ammunition for your Sixgun. :)

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 10 May 2003 02:17

apologies to admins - nitin, my email address is arindam_banerji@yahoo.com - please drop me a line when you a get a chance

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 10 May 2003 02:26

Any relation between the Histeria expert Thapar and the Dee-fence expert Thapar? Just curious...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kedar » 10 May 2003 02:29

Originally posted by GGanesh:
This idi0t doesnt realize that his ancestors, Konkani Brahmins like mine were subjected to all sorts of torture
The Inquisition by the Catholic (a misnomer, if ever there was one) clergy in Goa on innocent hindus, including cutting breasts of women in front of their husbands and children so that they could "see the mercy of their Lord Jesus Christ", is significant for two reasons:

(1) Its barbarism surpasses anything that even islamic invaders of yore perpetrated on innocent hindus and
(2) To a man, the Goan christian refuses to acknowledge these atrocities.
I am a Konkani and tell me about it. Goan Christians suffer from severe Stockholm syndrome (similar to the RAPE). Mangalorean Konkani Christians identify more with Mangalorean Konkani Hindus and derisively say that the Goan Christians have Portugese blood in them. Goans on the other hand think it is a mark of pride that they have Portugese blood in them and of course most of it is bunkus. These people used to carry their religion on the sleeve (similar to RAPE) and used to look down on their Indian heritage and culture. Because of their religion they used to identify themselves more with the Western world (similar to Pakistanis identifying more with the Arab/Persian world). The 1970s racist immigration laws in nations like Australia which gave preference to Christians convinced them of their "superiority". However, they got treated like dirt and were shown their aukat (similar to the Pakistanis) and have come down to earth.

What bugs me about the Goan Catholics is that they may have lived in Mumbai their entire life but they will claim that they know only English and very little knowledge of Hindi and Konkani (forget Marathi) which is not true. 99% of them will claim that they speak English at home. I can understand if they said Portugese because Goa was a Portugese colony until 1961 but why English?

OTOH, my observation has been that Malayalee, Mangalorean, Tamilian, NE, Marathi and other Christians are proud of their culture and heritage.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Sanjay Joshi » 10 May 2003 02:44

Namaskaru Kedar, my great grandpa was Bhandary from Kundapur so maybe we are related. :D

People in general like to associate themselves with what is cool. This is particularly true with the losers, those who have no achievements of their own, so they want to bask off the reflected glory. If India was the world superpower, you would see people wanting to be Indians. In the case of these Goan Christian Konkanis, they were brutalized and converted by the Portuguese. Religious Conversion is a big danger that we face even today, the Arabs converted the people of Sindh and so we have a Pakistan today. If this did not happen, I don't think we would have Terroristan next to us. Its more of a politcal issue than a religious one.

A few years ago, I got into a spat with some Christian Konks on the Konkani-Net mailing list and they began saying how "in darkness" the hindus were and how lucky they were since they now see the light. The Pope himself had the gall to say this on Indian soil, I hope he had gone to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to say this. :D These Goan Christians hear of the great conquest stories and like to associate themselves with the conquerers rather than the conquered (their own ancestors). Like Kedar said, parallels with the RAPE class of Pakiland.

Originally posted by Kedar Bhandary:
I am a Konkani and tell me about it. Goan Christians suffer from severe Stockholm syndrome (similar to the RAPE). Mangalorean Konkani Christians identify more with Mangalorean Konkani Hindus and derisively say that the Goan Christians have Portugese blood in them. Goans on the other hand think it is a mark of pride that they have Portugese blood in them and of course most of it is bunkus. These people used to carry their religion on the sleeve (similar to RAPE) and used to look down on their Indian heritage and culture. Because of their religion they used to identify themselves more with the Western world (similar to Pakistanis identifying more with the Arab/Persian world). The 1970s racist immigration laws in nations like Australia which gave preference to Christians convinced them of their "superiority". However, they got treated like dirt and were shown their aukat (similar to the Pakistanis) and have come down to earth.

What bugs me about the Goan Catholics is that they may have lived in Mumbai their entire life but they will claim that they know only English and very little knowledge of Hindi and Konkani (forget Marathi) which is true. 99% of them will claim that they speak English at home. I can understand if they said Portugese because Goa was a Portugese colony until 1961 but why English?

OTOH, my observation has been that Malayalee, Mangalorean, Tamilian, NE, Marathi and other Christians are proud of their culture and heritage.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Leonard » 10 May 2003 03:05


BR'ites lets start emailing DD inviting him to the Debate:

dilipd@rediff.co.in



For his article at:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/may/03dilip.htm

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nirdesh_Nepal » 10 May 2003 03:13

((A few years ago, I got into a spat with some Christian Konks on the Konkani-Net mailing list and they began saying how "in darkness" the hindus were and how lucky they were since they now see the light))

Look man what you can say to these stupids...

deleted

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Leonard » 10 May 2003 03:20

Unfortunetly all the "Atrocities" committed by

Church, Portuguese, or Islamic Invaders is not mentioned or illustrated or mentioned in any History Books.

On top of that the Catholic Schools/Convent schools are not going to state that Christianity was introduced under the Sword.

Unfortunateley Some of Us now have
" no Recollection of our Ancestry/Family Tree " beyond the last 2 generations. :(

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JE Menon » 10 May 2003 04:07

Warning to all - go back now and delete references critical of religious practices.

Admin

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JE Menon » 10 May 2003 04:11

To read about the Goan Christians and the Portuguese invasion, perhaps the foremost scholar in the world today is Dr. Sanjay Subramaniam. I think he's currently based in an elite Ecole National somethingorother in Paris. Google.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby GGanesh » 10 May 2003 04:15

BR'ites lets start emailing DD inviting him to the Debate:

dilipd@rediff.co.in
Why? Does anyone expect honest debate from him? If yes, I would argue that people on this board would have not been as critical of him, were he perceived to be a man of integrity who just happened to voice a view that was different from our own.

However, the fact that DD'S has a hidden agenda, whether fueled by an evangelical fervor at denigrating everything hindu or the typical desi mentality of being more "gora" than the "gora sahibs" themselves.

Either ways, an honest discourse cannot be expected from him and by inviting him to debate on this forum, we (1) give him the exposure he so craves and (2) debase BRF.

What next, invite Musharraf or Shirileeeeeeen for debate?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nandu » 10 May 2003 04:41

Arun_Gupta, thanks for the link. Not what I expected, but interesting and useful, nonetheless.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 10 May 2003 07:43

May I point out that India-hatred among Indians is not religion specific.

I may risk being "attacked" but I personally observe at least some evidence to say that Indians who are not hindu often have a much less negative view of themselves, their community and country than hindus.

Among the worst culprits are hindu.

Under the circumstances - I think it may a "mindset" that requires modification rather than religion. "Hinduism" itself is so broad that it is everybody's father - with a few people in India thinking that their particular brand is the most pure and accurate.

If you have been born into a brahmin family, try and look objectively at how dozens of your relatives talk and behave. I would be surprised if there were NO people in that group who considered themselves the purest of hindus, purer than anyone else.

Similar feelings exist in myriads of layers in indian families, and pinning down religions is just getting scapegoats. A lot of people I know who are "Christian" call themselves "hindu" merely because that description most aptly describes their family and community practices which are stronger than religious practices. Indic culture is characterized by "religion" playing a big role - but the definition of god is generally accepted as variable and used defined.

There are many muslims who realise damn well that they belong and fit in best in their little community in India - but the constraints and compulsions of Islam prevent them from going so far as to claim hindu culture which a Christian can do without shame of fear.

Indic culture is everybody's root in india and I think an understanding of that is essential.

JMT

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nirdesh_Nepal » 10 May 2003 10:51

Following is a comment made by a major Brtish media, The daily Mail, on Cherie Blair when she wore a Sari and a Bindi during an event to celebrate the success of the Asian women in London- NOw think if this was published by any major Indian Newspaper insulting certain community like this...

Cherie Blair, not surprisingly, has been smirked at by a daily for wearing the sari, specially the bindi. The Daily Mail wrote under the heading "Cherie's extra Eye", the premier's wife looks East for inspiration by wearing the orb that brings Hindus good fortune. It is just the sort of thing a busy QC (Ms Blair is one), judge, Prime Minister's wife and mother of four could do. An extra eye."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5983_250127,00430005.htm

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby svinayak » 10 May 2003 11:21

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=308958

Colliding barbarisms: Demystifying history
The Hindu Business Line
Mr Peter Popham, of the Independent, long beset by an incontinent hatred for India, pronounced that the country represented a brand of "quixotic fascism" bred in "an immature democracy". Poor Mr Popham. If the truth be told, his posting in Delhi among multitudes of the lesser breeds beyond the law must be condign punishment for sins in a previous incarnation. In a front-page report on June 3, 1999, in the midst of an acute provincial water shortage, he foretold, with carnivorous relish, the coming famine in impoverished Gujarat, pouring vitriolic scorn on any notion of economic progress in post-Raj India. In a subsequent piece, he was equally dismissive of India's capacity to enter the fraternity of manufacturing nations, there being some unstated genetic disorder that had disabled the Indian intellect.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Pulikeshi » 10 May 2003 12:03

Why has it become so cool to hate India

The parents of hatred are ignorance and prejudice. Truth is people know so little about India, Indians and especially the aspirations of the modern Indians. Problem is India is such a diverse, chaotic universe, and the attention span of an average western/eastern person is decreasing all the time. This ignorance is what leads them to act or say things that are offensive and hurtful. The problem is two fold, involving external and internal agents.

Some examples of this ignorance and prejudice in agents:

External to India:

1. Constant portrayal of poverty, hunger and disease in India. This has to do with rather poor image management by India, as well as Indians abroad.
2. Portrayal of Hindu Gods/Goddesses on slip-ons and toilets. This is clearly one of the failing of the Hindu community. They only react when someone does a booboo. How about they be pro-active and educate the people in Churches/Mosques/etc. about the philosophical and traditional ideas of Hinduism. Why are we not trying to start a dialog? Even if some of our ignorant brothers from other religions do not want to talk to us.
3. Associating India with Hinduism and ignoring large minority religions. I feel this is something that is purely India’s failing. Why not project Omar Abdullah and other well spoken patriotic Indians on International media as spokesperson for the Indian/Muslim point of view. It’s unfortunate that we let Pakistan and its half-baked intellects the platform especially on the western media. Indian democracy should not be afraid of a powerful and vibrant Muslim minority that is patriotic.

Internal to India:

1. People falling over them to appease outsiders. This is not a recent phenomenon, seems like we have had this problem for a long time. Be it desi Kings who supported invaders, communists looking to Russia and China, religious minorities looking to cultural influences before their own. My personal opinion is this problem is both our strength and weakness. We assimilate by taking outside ideas, we also loose something that is our own. We need a healthy balance. However, this servile mentality is a curse to our civilization and nothing good is ever going to come from it.
2. Always second guessing the Indian government and its officers. The media/opposition is cynical rather than constructively critical. Some of this has to do with “90% thinkers and 10% doers” curse that India suffers from. I seriously think there is too much cacophony in our democracy, its time to talk-less and do-more.
3. Blabber about foreign policy, secularism, democracy, etc without a fundamental understanding of these principles. Its time for India to become more self confident and aware of its own unique potential in the world. We are probably the only true democracy in the east created by our own founding fathers and intellectuals. Hinduism is a major reason for our democracy. While secularism is unnecessary if India was a purely Hindu country, it’s perhaps important to keep this uniquely western concept to keep our minorities comfortable.
4. Extreme drama and low substance. Mr. Bush dropping in to visit Mr. Singh or Mr. Mishra given more importance than what the US policy is towards the Indian subcontinent. Pledge by TSP to give up terrorism is given more importance than its reconciliation to the very existence of India.
5. Terms such as “Hindu rate of growth”. One other esteemed ignoramus talked about corruption being a “Hindu problem”. Another example of shameless chest beating. Surely comes from the feeling of helplessness. Time to empower everyone, from the cart pusher to the DOO.

I don’t know about you guys who whine that we are a defeated civilization. In my understanding of history, I find that every colonized country has risen to become a power. Instead of whining that the British divided and conquered us, it’s time we divided and conquered others! Use the lessons learnt in being conquered to become conquerors. Clearly the British learnt how to run the world from the Romans. The onus is on us to guide this effort to sustain and nurture this coming future. We need more workers and few thinkers. Those outside India need to become ambassadors. Sorry for sounding preachy, but we take more time beating our chests, rather than pick up a spade.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Vijnan » 10 May 2003 12:10

Originally posted by Pulikeshi Varma:
[b]Why has it become so cool to hate India

5. Terms such as “Hindu rate of growth”. One other esteemed ignoramus talked about corruption being a “Hindu problem”. Another example of shameless chest beating. Surely comes from the feeling of helplessness. Time to empower everyone, from the cart pusher to the DOO.
[/b]
More about this from Shekhar Gupa
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=23567

In fact, according to the figures, in 1990, applying the principle of purchasing power parity, Pakistan’s per capita income was $1862, more than 70 per cent higher than India’s $1072. By 2001, Pakistan per capita income had risen to $1920, but it stood over 25 per cent lower than India’s, which was now $2450.

How has Pakistan lost such a headstart? One, these years have coincided with Indian economic reform and transition from the era of Hindu growth rates to what could be called more secular growth rates. But more importantly, these have also been the years of Pakistan’s most deliberate and cynical use of terrorism against India in Punjab and then Kashmir.
Who makes such idiots editors?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby debjani » 10 May 2003 12:10

Its a great article by Arindam.

Its easy and cool to criticise India since greenbacks are cool. Ask Tariq Aziz!

Traitors may come and traitors may go, but none can subdue India!

Further there is an Urdu couplet which goes that the sun can be pushed down in the West, but it will reappear again in the East. You can't put a good thing down for long.

The person who stated that the LCA is not indigenous is not very wrong. He too would not be indigenous. In India, so many raiders, marauders and conquerors have come, looted and raped that we have far too many bloodlines and rather mixed one too. Therefore, there are no 'real' Indians I reckon. In this mileu if someone sells his soul, 'naam, namak and nishan' to the Great White Father or to some mad mullah. it does not perturb me. There are many amongst us, who inspite of our roots will not sell to the Great White Father, the mad mullahs or to the sole custodians of the Hindu faith. We will be Indians now and forever. It is because of this vast majority, pin-pricks like Bidwai [I have said earlier bid him bye bye and don't ask me 'why' because that is obvious] or Arundhoti [funny guy to have such a dhoti]D' Souza [squeeze his ***** and de-man him], Kuldip Nayyar [a blinking knacker (a person who buys and slaughters worn-out horses and sells their flesh as dog‘s meat, etc.) ]et al are aberrations.

It pains me to write so against such oddballs of Indian society since it is not gentlemanly or democratic, but then I think that its the last straw that broke the camel's back, even though I am no camel.

In this aspect I fell the Skhs have done a great job. Whilst countries are going berserk over the veil the Muslim women wear and preventing children adopting so in schools, the Sardars have
forced all Nations to accept their turban and beard as an exception to the dress code! Of course, tandoori chicken is not theirs, even if they claim so. It is that of the frontier; or rajma chawal which is Dogri. See how they conquer the Empire. Be like them.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 10 May 2003 19:34

I have the following observation on this thread:

I will presume to co-opt Arindam as a "BRF person" and ignore all the other good things he does, because that's a natural thing to do.

Given that, consider that this thread is about a BR -origin article which has definitely won international mainstream acclaim.

Why do I dare claim "mainstream"? Because, slowly - or rapidly, but surely, the e-mail circuits and websites are becoming the real mainstream of desi-related media. Yeah, there are still zillions of "India accuses .. Pakistan denies .. only moral support" type garbage trying to "explain" indiapakistan to the ignorant, but for people who want to know the news, those dorklications are irrelevant. By the time I see something in those "media", I have long-since seen it circulated on the e-mail circuit, and dissected in detail on BRF.

Permit me, an old fogey of BRF with a 3-digit postor number, to indulge in a bit of nostalgia - and, with all the certificates I've earned from the Pakis (what was that? "narayanan-monkey"? :D ) and the Commie-Dorks, some chest-thumping as well.

This time of year, 1998, the e-mail circuits were hardly known. We were all (at least I was) at the mercy of the CNN and Atlanta Constipation types. There may have been a very few desi-POV web sites, but the vast, vast majority were the "ejucated" types - IOW, Pakis. On May 10, 1998, around this time, Jesse Helms was declaring that "The Indian Government has shot itself in the foot, and probably in the head". And the dorks were nodding their empty heads in violent agreement and approval.

JUST FIVE YEARS AGO.

In 1999, about this time, we were hard put to find, say, 5 sites giving our POV on "Kashmir" or Pakistan, even as the Pakis launched their huge attack on India, backed by paratroop regiments and nuclear threats. NH-1 was firmly closed - the brave convoy drivers were dying from the accurate Paki artillery being directed from the ridges, and Indian soldiers were dying trying to fight uphill against machine-gun fire. Without proper boots. Or being tortured to death by the perverted savages. Siachen seemed a goner - and with that, Kashmir, and the integrity of India as we know it. The Republic was never in more danger.

THAT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO

What a change! And I think we on BRF especially, have at the very least ridden the leading edge of the Indian Wave. Damn it, I'm being too modest here - as I have no right to be! BRF people DROVE very large segments of that wave. We cajoled, argued, persuaded, certainly bullied, and I hope inspired to some extent, people to take the initiative - and showed that everyone could contribute something positive. We believed that we COULD make a difference.

And we have.

The Wave is moving - and growing as it reaches shore. I give the "mainstream" dorklets maybe one year before they either change or get drowned or washed away into the sewers. One of these days, "our" sites should take on the e-business too (or maybe the e-business advertisers will take care of the problem) and put the dorks out of business.

Note that the worst holdouts are the most "secure" in their print circulation - TOI and The Wimpoo. That's because, as one of the dorks said, there are only 3 computers per thousand Indians.

Think about that number. THREE COMPUTERS per thousand Indians!!! Not so long ago, I would have been amazed to hear of that many TV sets per thousand Indians - and I am old enough to be amazed at that many telephones or even radios per thousand Indians.

That number is exploding - far faster than the population. And with that, out goes the arrogance of Naxal Ram and his creations The Wimpoo, BOOTLICK, and the Times of Islamaintbad.

It occurs to me that in 1984, I wasted a lot of energy trying to persuade a local Marxist union neta in a Kerala university, NOT to go agitating against the introduction of computers in university offices. I tried to convince him that his efforts would be far better spent on demanding that the administration TRAIN his people to USE computers, rather than replace them with new operators - that it was easy to learn to use computers. Fortunately, the Commie was in no mood to listen - and his organization fought and were run over by progress. Otherwise the Commies might have got the jump on the New Mainstream Media, like they have tried to do in the West with the FOIL and the South Asia Communist Web.

Note that the enemy has tried hard - and without extreme efforts from us, they may have had a chance to destroy us. The websites, until recently, used to be pretty slick and well-done : far better of course than their stupid bigoted content.

Sorry for the long rant, but one has to take time out occasionally for some pat-our-own backs pow-wows.

Congraulations, Arindam! You've established a new landmark on our roll across the Media Empires that once looked so monolithic and untouchable. And your article is not just an occupation of a border village - its a direct precision strike on the Presidential Palaces of the Dork Media.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 10 May 2003 20:16

Not quite what you might expect.

Exactly what i might expect from Barry Bearak and NYT. When it comes to deciding whether somebody is on the side of evil or not, look for signs where he implies 'I am not on either side'.

Both Barry Bearak and Celia Dugger (husband and wife) are Professional India skeptics. Under the pretence of evenhandedness, they never write anything really good about India. Incidentally they choose to live in ND and bring up their children in India.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 10 May 2003 22:13

"Both Barry Bearak and Celia Dugger (husband and wife) are Professional India skeptics"

True, especially about Celia Dugger; but, Bearak was at least willing to "consider" the possibility that the other side could have a hand in it. Our own Pankaj Mishra was not - even when Jha pointed this out to him, Mishra retaliated with legalistic nit-picking.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JCage » 11 May 2003 03:59

Originally posted by arindam:
"Both Barry Bearak and Celia Dugger (husband and wife) are Professional India skeptics"

True, especially about Celia Dugger; but, Bearak was at least willing to "consider" the possibility that the other side could have a hand in it. Our own Pankaj Mishra was not - even when Jha pointed this out to him, Mishra retaliated with legalistic nit-picking.
So true.While Bearak despite a compulsive anti Indian slant,went so far as to acknowledge the opposite point of view-we have so called Indian citizens doing their best to rubbish their nation and mock the deaths of innocents.
Pankaj Mishra should have his citizenship revoked.This should be done to Praful Bidwai and a bunch of assorted Roys etc.Enough is enough.If these worthies hate this nation so much,then they have no God given right to reside in the same whilst acting against national interests 24/7.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 11 May 2003 05:58

Originally posted by nitin:

Pankaj Mishra should have his citizenship revoked.
This is like calling him "naughty boy"

The thing to do is to get a few goons to bash him to within an inch of his life and leave him to complain to Amnesty.

His whines can't get any shriller and it can be said that he is crying wolf, as usual. The tolerance of the Indian civilization allows you to place yourself at any spot under a huge bell curve, but if you misuse it the same thing can boomerang on you.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Rudra » 11 May 2003 06:53

I believe pankaj mishra is presently out of the
circus, lives in Simla and is writing a book on
Buddhism.

the good side of me wants to think like rohan
oberoi he has given up hope and gone away; the
realist side says hes going to write an opus how
hinduism has been oppressing buddhism, bring in
the dalit conversion angle and so on.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 11 May 2003 07:05

In the whole pro-desi community (what is described by some as the Hyper-Nationalist Jingo tribe) there appear to be very few dedicated attorneys. This is the real need of the hour.

Obviously I don't support any schemes of physical violence against writers, however dishonest. But there need to be some good, deeply-figured, determined lawsuits that nail them for lying.

For example, a suit filed on behalf of the commander of security forces in the vicinity of Chattisinghpura the day of the massacre. These guys were basically accused by the liar Mishra without a shred of evidence. What did they do to deserve that? And regardless of subsequent vindication of the security forces, the ass has never had the decency to even modify his slander, let along retract, apologize and make amends.

The other traitor Oberoi used to write these :whine: stories declaring how the "pro-India" vigilantes stopped the jeep in which he was gallivanting with foreigners in J&K, took him to an office and held them (no beating etc. - what a lost opportunity!) until "New Delhi" approved their release. These guys probably saved them from being kidnapped and having their little themselves removed by the Lashkar-e-Toiba - but to read his garbage, "New Delhi" had it in for him all along!

Same for A. Roy, who blatantly plagiarized a lie from TIME, and then failed to retract when TIME retracted the lie.

I agree completely with Shiv that they need to experience consequences - deterrent consequences- for lying. But the right course is through lawsuits.

A long time ago, Ariel Sharon sued TIME for writing that he bore responsibility for the massacres by the South Lebanon Christian Militia at the Palestinian refugee camps of Chattila and Sabra. Most of us would agree that Sharon bore indirect responsibility, because the Militia was very much an Israeli-sponsored outfit.

After a long trial, the jury found for Sharon - but awarded him just one dollar in damages.

TIME crowed - but could not hide the fact that their only defense was that they were bloody incompetents and loose cannons who never check their facts, and can't be held to be malicious, on account of their utter nit-wit nature.

I'd have to agree with Rahul Mehta that this was a brilliant jury verdict.

Then again, the Southern Poverty Law Center goes after hate-speech authors, diligently, and destroys them. Utterly. I used to be a "Founder's Council" supporter of his outfit in the days when he really needed money and was getting death threats regularly - before he won his 100-million dollar endowment, largely from punitive damages from the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Nations yahoos.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 11 May 2003 07:12

I don't see that much of a difference between the Geelanis and the Mishras - except, that Geelani may be more open about where his loyalties lie ...

Citizen Giliani


In the middle of the genteel gathering, a venomous argument broke out between Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the Imam of the historic Jama Masjid in Delhi, and Syed Ali Shah Geelani, perhaps the most visible figure of the Islamist Far Right in Jammu and Kashmir. The debate, which began over Bukhari's claim that the interests of Indian Muslims were at stake in Jammu and Kashmir, ended emphatically. "Kashmir will become a part of Pakistan," Geelani declaimed, "I am a Pakistani."

...

After his arrest last year, under the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act, he was shifted to the Birsa Munda prison in Ranchi, Jharkhand. The prison cell he was housed in was a two-room block custom-built to house former Bihar Chief Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav. The closest thing to a five-star accommodation available in the Indian prison system, Geelani's accommodation was in stark contrast to that given to most other prisoners from Jammu and Kashmir.

Early this year, a tumour in Geelani's kidney was found to be malignant. He was promptly flown to Mumbai from Ranchi, on the Jammu and Kashmir government's official twin-engine Beechcraft. A personal doctor flew on the plane from Srinagar, and was in attendance at the luxury suite made available to Geelani at the Tata Memorial Hospital, a premier cancer-care facility. On his return to Srinagar, however, he complained about poor prison conditions and healthcare, perhaps an effort to shore up his legitimacy with his understandably sceptical constituency.


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby debjani » 11 May 2003 07:38

I heard an interesting one in 'Walk the Talk' programme of NDTV 24X7 on 10 May 03.

Arun Sourie stated that Jairam Ramesh wrote an article 'YANKEE GO HOME' and the punch line was - but take us along with you!

:rotfl:

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Victor » 11 May 2003 08:49

The second post on this thread hit it on the head by answering the question like this:

Originally posted by SanjayJ:
Because we are not taught/brainwashed in school about Indian nationalism the way they do it here in the US.
If we had been 'brainwashed' in school to be proud and confident Indians, these assorted dorks would be dogmeat the morning after writing such crap. Like they would be in the US and China. I submit that we have much more to be proud and confident of than either country. It is never too late to start however and one wonders when we will learn.

In another post eons ago, I had addressed this very issue. Having lived all over India as a kid, the one thing that never occured to me then struck me much later in life: my closest friends were a totally diverse lot, as diverse as you can get, but the one thing we had in common was our complete happiness in who we were, what we were doing and the fact that we would gladly give our lives to defend India. Dissenters to this view would never have made it to our presence.

If we can find it within our vision, we should make something like the NCC compulsory for every school kid for at least 2 years. This is not as radical as it may seem. If one cannot march then they will play the bugle, flute, drums, hold the flag whatever. No need to massage history. No need to get fundoo in any way. India never needed that and never will. Just let the kids live together for a few weeks and play it like it is, away from the prejudices that invariabley exist in every home. It is amazing what some closely shared sufferings will do at that age. This is always present in any country's armed forces but why not inculcate this at an early age? Every other 'big' power does it, certainly the US and China in one form or another. What has kept us from doing this?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 11 May 2003 08:51

Originally posted by narayanan:
they need to experience consequences - deterrent consequences- for lying. But the right course is through lawsuits.
I was walking to the courts in order to press and urge for faster redressal of cases when I passed by Pankaj Mishra. Unfortunately a fly came and sat on my nose at that moment and my hand reflexly shot up to scare off the fly - and when that happened my hand accidentally struck PM in the eye and gave hima black eye.

How sad. Not my fault. If only there were fewer flies about. Maybe I should initiate a public interest litigation against flies.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AJay » 11 May 2003 10:26

Originally posted by shiv:
Drama, as in "graphic, explicit and colorful and emotive" is a very Indian form of expression. Hindi movies are an example, and another example (for those who have seen both) are the 8 hour english play "Mahabharata" made by phoren (Can't recall now) - with no big colorful sets/costumes - but capturing the essence of the story. Compare withteh mega serial "Mahabharat" - same story much color and drama. Both had their appeal, but the latter was obviously very Indian in its appeal and could be described as "garish" in Western terms.
I have seen both. I think the 8 hour english play is totally
unjust to the epic that Mahabharatha is. Mahabharatha is
a very complex peice of literature which describes
the great dharma yuddha in minute detail. In fact the
hindi serial also left out a lot of material in the begnning
of the epic, i.e. the Sarpa yajna where JanamEjaya wants to take revenge on
Takshaka. Probably a lot of the 100,000 shlokAs is left out.
My guess is that things like Draupadi-Yudhistira Samvada
are left out because they would not make good film making.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 11 May 2003 10:58

If the 8hour play is the one by peter brooks, I have seen a version of it performed live in San francisco several years ago. It did not leave a lasting impression on me.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Rajita » 11 May 2003 11:59

Guys has any one heard of this person:
Lise McKean
I heard her sometime ago pour scorn on Hindu-demons in the disguise of being a "researcher" on Hindu violence. She has made some outrageous claims of being molested by a Hindu babu etc. I would expect her to be actively joining hands with Desouzas, Matthew and Patwardhan (He is another poisonous person). I had mentioned the potential danger from FOIL on the Indian civilization list a few months before their famous campaign. I fear this person may be another character to watch out.

Regarding Peter Brooks' Mahabharat I wonder if you all have seen the new translation by Buitenen and his successors. Here they claim they are bringing out the real picture of the Mahabharat and downsize the Kings and emperors of ancient India by calling them chiefs and warlords. Peter Brooks depictions seem to convey a similar message- small time chiefs feuding over their tribal hunting grounds with little wooden spears. I feel this is done purposely to give the impression that India had no great rulers until the Greek influence.
Rajita

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Guest » 11 May 2003 17:34

What victor says does make sense. I think people who have been raised in mixed cosmopolitan communities have a better understanding and appreciation for other cultures. NCC is one such institution which should be made compulsory at least in schools. I hardly remember singing the national anthem in my school. Lastly schools run by religious bodies are not known to favour equality among students. The one that i went to, taught religion to catholics while others were taught moral science. Their were several other incidences which are disgusting when i think about it now...These are influences which most people carry thru their lives..

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 11 May 2003 18:06

There is something in what Victor has been saying about the NCC. All indians have got to get some kind of exposure to some defence-related outfit like that. Will reduce the incidence of ARoy-tolerators.

Hey, even though I practically separated from physics/math and associated algorithms later, yours truly was in NCC Air Wing! (And had to learn some discipline from the peers with stripes!)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 11 May 2003 18:16

yours truly was in NCC Air Wing!
Welcome to the club, etc. The most vivid memory I have of that is of pushing the broken-down NCC truck on the road to the shooting range in mid-summer, in full winter uniform, of course, with a little girl standing by the wayside, hands on her hips, and gloating - in perfect desi Angrezi:

Serves these naughty boys right!
Somehow does not sync with all the stories of the wimmen coming out in multitudes to swoon over the dashing Air Force officers... :whine:

Maybe that was Ongona Chotterji or Orundhoti Roy - but then again, she didn't actually throw stones at us. Seemed very happy though.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 11 May 2003 19:02

Heh heh N^3!

I hid the fact that I needed glasses-I pretended I did not (and copied all notes from a faithful friend with excellent eyesight sitting, with me on the last bench). All this to get into the Air Wing!

(The friend later on went on to join IAF).

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nirdesh_Nepal » 11 May 2003 22:40


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nirdesh_Nepal » 11 May 2003 22:47

Cry me a river for the Brits- they are getting very edgy for the fear of being potrayed negatively in the upcoming Film the INVADER.... :rotfl: ...

Britain gets edgy with epic film Invaders - By

Our London Correspondent

Britain gets edgy with epic film Invaders
- By Our London Correspondent

London: An epic film that explores the courage of Indian troops in the face of British conquerers way back in 1779 has raised concerns that it is yet another attempt by filmmakers to portray the English as bloody and self-interested conquistadors.
Compared to Mel Gibson’s Oscar-winning Braveheart which was widely condemned for presenting an unrealistic picture of English rule in Scotland, Invaders is a lavish reconstruction of the little-known clash between troops and local warriors at Wadgaon. The £30-million Hollywood epic is directed by Roland Joffe, the director of The Killing Fields and is co-produced by Ajey Jhanker, who has long campaigned for the “brilliant victory” at Wadgaon to be recognised more widely.
According to the Sunday Telegraph, the filmmakers have decided to create fictional characters and to take the battle in isolation. Invaders, which was provisionally entitled The Humiliation at Wadgaon, will use thousands of local extras as well as hundreds of horses and elephants to recreate the moment when advancing British troops were forced into retreat by Maratha leader Mahadji Shinde. The movie, which will be shot in both Hindi and English, will culminate in the death of the British commander, Lieutenant James Stewart, and the raising of the white flag.
Peter Rawley, who is producing the film, said he could not care less about the criticism. “I have not the slightest concern about the British reaction to the film might be,” he said.
“The British got a bloody nose at Wadgaon and ended up having to hoist a White flag. It happened and it’s in the English history books. If they can’t accept the facts, then that is tough.”
The British troops were in fact soldiers of the East India Company who were defeated while advancing from what was then Bombay to capture new territories, including Pune. Hundreds were killed and their final surrender at Wadgaon forced the EIC to sign a humiliating treaty which gave up all territories captured since 1773; the British would not ultimately take Pune until 1819.
An Indian public trust has been created to commemorate the battle with the motto “Indians are second to none.”
However, concerns have been raised about the filmmakers’ decision to fictionalise aspects of the story.


http://www.asianage.com/

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JCage » 11 May 2003 22:56

Originally posted by shiv:
Originally posted by nitin:
[b]
Pankaj Mishra should have his citizenship revoked.
This is like calling him "naughty boy"

The thing to do is to get a few goons to bash him to within an inch of his life and leave him to complain to Amnesty.

His whines can't get any shriller and it can be said that he is crying wolf, as usual. The tolerance of the Indian civilization allows you to place yourself at any spot under a huge bell curve, but if you misuse it the same thing can boomerang on you.[/b]
Shiv for PM.Being a tolerant Indian, i'll stand by and watch(and get a few in,if you dont mind).


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