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Women's status in Indian society

H Vyas
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Women's status in Indian society

Postby H Vyas » 08 Jul 2002 00:23

Howdy!

Following is a news story appearing in not only sify.com but also Indian Express.

Such utter non-sense goes on in India, heck even in India's bigger cities. I wonder what all goes on in its smaller towns and villages?

We look at the gang-rape case in Pakistan and feel a bit at easy, that atleast not in India do we have 'elected' community councils ordering barbaric punishment. But actually we do have such people!

I say such retrograde practices should be attacked with the full force of the law! And RELIGION as a trump card has no place in this issue. India's laws that ensure equal protection and equal rights must be made supreme over some laws based on religion or some weird reading by some people into religious texts.

Further, only yesterday there was a news item about 900 tribal girls in Orissa being SOLD OFF to brothels across the country, but of all the people, some assumed NGO's!!!

What is the status of women in Indian society? And I mean Indian, not Muslim, not Hindu. Even in AIMPLB thread, I had stressed this to be an Indian issue and only after I had put it that way did the likes of narayan backtrack and say they also looked at that as a national issue.

Atleast I'm of the belief that even though the Hindu society may worship Godesses, that generally, women are not independent, not free. Same is true with Muslim women, and Christian women and others.

To prove fidelity, woman forced through agni pareeksha

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby kautilya » 08 Jul 2002 06:42

krish,
Nobody claims that in Indian society <B> all women [/b] are free and enjoy equal status as men. All is the keyword here.
But, the redeeming factor is the open debate, free press and constant improvement in the status that goes on to attain that goal. Admitting that their are a lot of problems currently, especially I rural areas, nobody can deny that there has been a steady improvement in the status of women. This is also helped in no small way by the equal status of women enjoyed in the law.

When people talk about incidents in societies like puki, they also know that the situation is a lot worse then reported -- no free press, a move back to fundamentalism which is decresing instead of increasing the status of women etc. etc. The non-equal status of women in the fundamentalist laws in societies like pukis is another big issue that will never allow the staus of women to rise there. when the law itself does not allow for equality , where is the hope?

P.S. Your point about the 900 orrisa women does not mean anything, for it's a comment on poverty, and not status of women.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby advitya » 08 Jul 2002 06:59

Actually women are repressed all over. You should see some of the battered women's shelter's in the US. The problem is just as endemic. Education and rule of law is the answer.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kedar » 08 Jul 2002 08:58

Krish:

I am glad that Narayan has been able to make you see the light. I hope we will continue to focus on such issues as national issues rather than as a Hindu or a Muslim or a Jat or a Gujurati or a whatever issue. When we consider everyone as "our people" rather than "those people" will be able to focus better on societal problems some of which plague all sections of the society.

Now coming to the topic on "Women's status in Indian society", I am personally disappointed that we haven't made much progress in that field. I still feel that women are meted out second-class treatment. The situation is better in some parts of India and amongst some communities, and utterly pathetic in some parts and some communities and I won't start any flame wars by pointing fingers but for me until we reach a level of zero atrocities on women across the board, I won't feel satisfied or complacent.

As a solution, I don't feel that any tougher or stricter laws are needed if we don't have the heart to implement them. If the current laws itself are implemented with full vigor, we can see a lot of positive results. As a broken record I will repeat for the nth time that until a nation improves its law and order situation, much of its progress will come to nought. For example, even under the current laws, any man who marries an underage girl can be charged with statutory rape. Implement it and we will see a possible decline in child marriages.

Secondly, I will like to say that educational and economic upliftment of women is the key especially the economic part. Even in nations like the US, UK, Canada, where women are economically helpless and dependent on their men are less likely to resist and take any kind of BS thrown at them.

Finally, we have to get rid of this obsession of having a male heir. I know families that are total losers, having half-a-dozen kids because they wanted a male offspring. Why? to carry their loser tradition?

Kautilya:

Let's not bring Pakistan into picture. I personally don't give horse droppings as to how they treat their women. I am more concerned about India and at this time the treatment meted out to them stinks.

Advitya:

Crimes against women may be universal but let's not delude ourselves by saying that. You mentioned the US and the battered women's shelter. What percentage of battered women are able to access a shelter in the US v India? How many spousal abuses go more unreported in India than in the US? How many instances is the offending male more likely to walk away in India than in the US? In California, when a cop is called in a domestic violence case and if he sees assault marks than he has the authority to arrest the husband there even if the wife denies that he has hit her. In Oklahoma, irrespective of who hit first, the person who suffered more injuries (most women) are deemed victims.

By education, did you mean education of women. In that case I agree with you. However, I have observed that many educated men and women behaving equally bad in treating women in their family especially daughter-in-laws. For example, my wife's cousin and her husband (jacka$$) are Maharashtrians who by and large have a better record in the treatment of women vis-a-vis than the rest of India. Jacka$$ is a graduate of IIT Bombay but he forced his wife to abort their second child because it was going to be a daughter again.

As individuals we can do a few simple things for the upliftment of women.

a) Practise what we preach in our daily lives like refusing to take dowry in marriage.

b) Sponsor a little girl and her education in India. It might not cost more than $20-25 a month.

c) Speak out more forcefully against atrocities on women.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 08 Jul 2002 10:32

Originally posted by krish:
What is the status of women in Indian society?
Very bad.

Originally posted by krish:
I say such retrograde practices should be attacked with the full force of the law!
I thought netas have ALREADY made laws to protect women. If you think existing laws are insufficient, what additional laws do you propose?

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Eshwar » 08 Jul 2002 11:36

In my opinion it is not just the implementation of the laws but also the conservativeness of our society, especially about women, which makes all the difference. As someone mentioned, in the US the cops come only when the wife calls up for help. In India that does not happen. In India, making the problems of a family public is strictly prohibited by the 'elders'. And the society has been supporting that. But the situation is definitely changing, though mainly in the urban areas.

Atrocities against women will decrease when women have the economic freedom and the education for achieving that. There has to considerable change in the soceity also. With more and more girls getting educated and getting good jobs, there will be a considerable change in the situation in a decade or so. It can easily be seen that in most wealthy families these problems are minimum. But these always exceptions and these are like any other crimes.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Jodhka » 08 Jul 2002 21:16

I must comment upon the wording of this topic.

There is no such thing as "The Status" of women in our society at least. If you'll notice the results of various kinds of surveys taken in US, they say things like
18% of blacks do something
34% of whites do something else
2% of black literate do that
1% of white females do this something else.
In other words, there is no one absolute answer. The answers depend upon categorization of people into groups.

That we ask "What is the Status of women in our society" is a reflection of lack of knowledge about ourselves. If we did more such surveys, we'd be wary of putting all Indian women in one category.

The status of women, in general, is different in metros than it is small towns in which it is different from that in villages. Even in the same town-area, it varies from family to family depending upon various factors, job-hours and financial condition being two I can think of at the moment. Religion, or rather extent of religious conditioning, probably is another one.

Literacy is no small factor. Though I don't know for sure, but I've heard that "the status" is far better in Kerala, where traditional familial structure plays a role too.

Hence when members reply to this thread, make it a point to make us aware of which region of India you refer to and what economic and other conditions prevail there and why do you think whether this answer can be generalized to whole of India.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby venkat_r » 08 Jul 2002 22:02

There has been considerable change in the thinking in India regarding the role of women in the past decade, Though we need to cover a lot more ground still.

most of theis effect has come from the effects of the TV and the Movie industry. The role of the women seems to be changing in the society and it is well dipicted.
Most of the polls in India indicated that women gave preference to health care for the betterment of women. Education came a close sencond.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby H Vyas » 08 Jul 2002 22:07

I am glad that Narayan has been able to make you see the light.
;)

Be that as it may; I seem to agree with eshwar here. Laws are already there, they need implementation.

Katilaya, not just India is poor; poverty afflicts other soceities as well, but the way women are made to suffer in the Indian subcontinent is pathetic.

Also, giving the example of women's shelters in the U.S. is not such a great idea. Atleast there, they do have large and recognized women's groups and shelters. In India, how many women are able to flee from their in-laws, or even from their own families and not get the wrath of the general society? I would say that in India, women are always guilty until proven innocent and this agni pareeksha is just one example.
Also, do you think povery leads the in-laws to burn women down? There have been examples of well-to-do families asking for huge dowries as if they're out there to sell their sons, and when the dowry didn't materialize, forget that the people are considered 'educated', they don't even have an ounce of nicety and instead burn the woman to death.
So its not poverty, I'm afraid. Its the ingrained view of women in many backward areas.

But I agree that the situation in pakistan and india is different. Atleast in India, there is equal protection in some laws; what needs is implementation.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 08 Jul 2002 22:15

As individuals we can do a few simple things for the upliftment of women.

a) Practise what we preach in our daily lives like refusing to take dowry in marriage.

b) Sponsor a little girl and her education in India. It might not cost more than $20-25 a month.

c) Speak out more forcefully against atrocities on women.
Good suggestions, Kedar and easy to do, and each drop will count. If I may add

(d) Encourage girls in India (who we are in touch with thru family or friends) that are in high school or college to study by offering guidance about future prospects etc. Sometimes all it takes is paying 10 or 15K rupees (max 300 hundred dollars) and forcing them to join a coaching institute for competitive exams. Typically the girl or her parents will demur about paying such fees, but will acquiesce if you present them with a fait accompli by paying the fees. Also try if possible to impress on their parents the tremendous advantages they will confer on their daughter if she studied well. I know of many girls that are better than boys, but receive less family and societal encouragement to pursue their goals. A phone call from the US asking how studies are progressing or an email can lift their spirits and motivate them. Most of us are well educated and considered successful - so they kinda naturally look up to us - some encouragement from us, some guidance, some money will go a long way in making a girl's career at crucial stages - high school, and later when finishing say, Bsc. Each such person whose potential is taken to a different orbit will later stimulate many more to emulate her. Sometimes all it takes to move to different orbit is a gentle push, encouragement, guidance or some money, and I would emphasize that these have to be offered at the right time in the girl's life to make a difference. Believe me, the satisfaction that one gets is immense.

With (b) above listed by Kedar, it is easy to find a maid (domestic help) that works for your parents, uncle/aunt/relative, and pay for her daughter's school and some basic nutrition (e.g. insisting on a couple of glasses of milk and a couple of eggs everyday and pay for it). Give the money to the girl's mom - the fathers in many cases are prone to spend it on drink. Can also easily find a driver's daughter or a priest's daughter (many priests or maulvies etc are poor), and be a godparent to them. $20 or $30 per month is all it takes, as Kedar says. You can send $300 or $400 in one go to your local contact (parents/relatives) and ask them to monitor the spending.

If each one of us in the US spends even $500 per year on such things, with about 2 million Indians in the US, and a family size of 4 persons, there are about 500,000 families in the US that can set apart $500 each per year. That works to 500 x 500,000 = $250 million per year or about 1,250 crore rupees on girl child's education. This is about 25% of the central govt's annual expenditure budget on all education. Plus, the money we spend does not go thru Governmental red tape etc.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2002 01:23

Excellent suggestions from Kedar and Imtiaz. I also believe advertising is a good way to spread the message on girls education.

What does it take to collar an ad agency to make free TV spots to promote female literacy (or literacy in general)? Then grab some TV executives by the vitals and urge them to insert these spots (free again) just once a week or even a month? Alternatively, once the spot is made and insertions agreed, sponsors could be sought out to cover the costs over time... There's got to be a way. I think it will have a great impact, especially if the spot is good.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4501 » 09 Jul 2002 01:31

JE Menon from the Pakistani discussion thread

First on BR process: If BR considered that my post on the Indian situation didnot belong to the Pakistan discussion thread, it should have been deleted by admins instead of this prolonged and incessant whining about it which doesnot belong there either.

Secondly, I believe my post belonged there.

btw, the biggest reason why vicious Paki RAPE propaganda promoting Pakistan against India doesnot work is because their propaganda material is not borne out by facts on the ground in Pakistan and India.

Similarly, there is emotional satisfaction but zero propaganda percentage for Indians in highlighting one single rape in Pakistan as a sign of Paki barbarism when its clear to the world that in India, the 'rape is a capital crime' Home Minister has refused to make it clear to the authorities and general public that rapes were unacceptable and FIRs in Gujarat MUST be lodged against the culprits (I have not seen a single statement to this effect, I may have missed it).

BRites may see merit in shaky hollow propaganda as opposed to no propaganda after a rape, but I am not one of them.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Eshwar » 09 Jul 2002 02:01

Originally posted by Gyta:
Similarly, there is emotional satisfaction but zero propaganda percentage for Indians in highlighting one single rape in Pakistan as a sign of Paki barbarism when its clear to the world that in India, the 'rape is a capital crime' Home Minister has refused to make it clear to the authorities and general public that rapes were unacceptable and FIRs in Gujarat MUST be lodged against the culprits (I have not seen a single statement to this effect, I may have missed it).
The home minister's not asking the authorities to do the needful does not mean he supports such crimes. It is a very well known law of the land and I am sure the police will do what is necessary.

Do you have any facts to support your claim that the home minister "refused to make it clear"? You sound as if someone asked him to condemn and he refused. Moreover, he is just an individual who has been given that job to execute the law.

The pakis' numerous crimes towards their own (Bangladesh in 1971 etc.) and also towards India gives enough gun powder for any pakistan-hating-Indian to use any and every occasion for propaganda against them. And every one should exploit such occasions.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby S Bajwa » 09 Jul 2002 02:18

One of the very basic psychological abuse of a girl child across all cultures
that I have observed is summed up by following statement.

"She is a girl she does not need to learn mathematics. Home science
and fine arts are good for her."

Thus... you do not see many girls in supposedly "Male" professions like computers,
Engineering, Physics, etc.

I think it is our moral responsibility to shun any such stereotypes.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kaushal » 09 Jul 2002 02:41

FIRs in Gujarat MUST be lodged against the culprits (I have not seen a single statement to this effect, I may have missed it

You may not find many statements condemning murderers either, but that does not mean there are too many BRites supporting murder .

Incidentally, VB on domestic violence and other issues. Domestic violence is a problem among Indian expats also.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/08varsha.htm

"And that's just in national politics. What happens inside homes is far more sordid. A January 12 report in the HT says, "While 90% of Meghalaya women had experienced domestic violence, 40% of Tamil Nadu women said they had been physically mistreated by family members from the age of 15." In a study by the International Center for Research on Women, a huge 50% of the women questioned reported having experienced physical and/or psychological violence at home. The study found that "domestic violence is pervasive across caste, class, education and employment status. Forty-five per cent upper caste women in rural Gujarat, for instance, have reported physical or psychological abuse. In Mumbai, special cell records show that over 36% of the women seeking help against violence are involved in paid work. Of these, a massive 70% have either primary or secondary education and a fifth are from the middle class."

Kaushal

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby jarugn » 09 Jul 2002 02:52

Two factors determine social and economic development more than any other. The indisputability of these factors is simply stunning. No amount of developmental economics or sociology or finance can explain the growth of a society better than these factors. These factors are

1) Education level of women
2) Economic emancipation of women

In India women have a way to go to before the nation can set itself on true economic reform. The kind of reform where a rising tide will lift all not just the college educated.

Toward that effort India must pass the Women's empowerment legislation. The 33% set aside is a good start. Compare and contrast this with the decline of male college graduation rates in the US.

Today nearly 60% of all graduated in American colleges and professional schools are women barring some male oriented professions such as engineering or military academy.

Far more than the IT or other high-tech business, the empowerment of Indian women will create nearly 300-400 million new consumers in India. JUST IMAGINE WHAT THEIR PURCHASING POWER CAN DO! The multiplier affect would be stunning in consumer goods alone. If you observe American society, Women and teenage girls shop more than men - companies regularly target them via advertizing etc because of their puchasing power.

The fastest way India can develop and bust at seems is by educating and empowering women. I can not imagine a better way.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Pennathur » 09 Jul 2002 03:26

There is an insidious move afoot among the conservatives in the US to wink at the practice of streaming "boys" and "girls" into traditional streams - sciences for the one and arts for the other. And of course as it always happens here, both sides conservatives and their opponents are playing a statistical game - with even serious academics saying that there is nothing wrong because "we all know that girls do better at writing etc., while boys do better at Math" I am not painting a dark picture but suggesting that this is a widespread closet sentiment. In contrast for the last 30 years in India, gender differences in the matter of enrollment have all but disappereared in the sciences and engineering. This may be a very small part of the much larger and more onerous task of banishing discrimination, adverse and pervese against women in India, but one we shd feel proud of.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2002 03:55

Gyta,

Thanks for shifting forums.

>>First on BR process: If BR considered that my post on the Indian situation didnot belong to the Pakistan discussion thread, it should have been deleted by admins instead of this prolonged and incessant whining about it which doesnot belong there either.

I have not said your post did not belong in that thread, any more than the discussion on the rape did. The suggestion to shift threads and forums was made by Div. As for prolonged and incessant whining, if memory serves me right, we were happily wallowing in the gang-rape/gang-sodomy issue in Pak when brought India into the picture. Therefore, the whining, as you see it, and you have every right to, will not end simply because the point has to be made. You cannot attempt to equate the situation facing women in India legally and those in Pakistan. Once that matter is cleared, I said I would have no more to say on the issue. You have said that you did not intend to equate, and I will take it in that spirit.

>>Secondly, I believe my post belonged there.

OK.

>btw, the biggest reason why vicious Paki RAPE propaganda promoting Pakistan against India doesnot work is because their propaganda material is not borne out by facts on the ground in Pakistan and India.

There you go. This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

>>Similarly, there is emotional satisfaction but zero propaganda percentage for Indians in highlighting one single rape in Pakistan

Actually, there is huge propaganda percentage. This particular incident was covered by everybody and his uncle.

>>as a sign of Paki barbarism when its clear to the world that in India, the 'rape is a capital crime' Home Minister has refused to make it clear to the authorities and general public that rapes were unacceptable and FIRs in Gujarat MUST be lodged against the culprits (I have not seen a single statement to this effect, I may have missed it).

Now you're in a thread about women's status in Indian society, so you're free to say what you want, but I see that it is difficult to get away from the business of comparing with Pakistan.

On a more mundane level, I ask out of ignorance actually, why does the Home Minister have to make a statement on rapes when the law is clear on the subject? Or is the law not clear?

>>BRites may see merit in shaky hollow propaganda as opposed to no propaganda after a rape, but I am not one of them.

Do you mean you're not a BRite? Surely, you mean not yet.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2002 06:31

Originally posted by Gyta:

BRites may see merit in shaky hollow propaganda as opposed to no propaganda after a rape
Just one post from me - then I'll exit - because my post will be totally off topic of thread.

Propaganda is propaganda and thrives on making a big deal of the smallest events. One rape in Pakistan is nothing - but using the fact that on particular rape is "visible" to international media gives it tremendous propaganda value.

All propaganda is by definition shaky and hollow. Tell a lie long enough and it will be believed. If its not a lie so much the better. No satyameva jayate here - just a dirty scheme and no apologies.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kaushal » 09 Jul 2002 07:18

The notion that India (or any subgroup in India) does not practice propaganda or should not practice it because of ethical considerations, is naive. As always it is caveat emptor. it is up to the reader to discern the truth from the welter of noise and ... propaganda. But it becomes self defeating if you start believing your own er.. propaganda

Kaushal

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Bibhas » 09 Jul 2002 08:00

Status of women in a society is a broad based term and can be easily subdivided into Economic Status and Socio-Cultural Status. Condition and status, in which a woman spends her life in India, varies very widely from region to region, religion to religion and even from time to time. There is no definitive constant value by which one can describe the status of women in India. People normally have a conception that by removing illiteracy and poverty countrywide, status of women can be improved a long way. This has largely been proved to be wrong. Moreover poverty and status of women are very remotely linked and can be safely ignored for all practical considerations. Here are some of my arguments.

In the socio-economic structure of very poor tribes (like Santhal etc), women play a very major role. No of working/earning women per 100s of women are much more than that of a middle class sample of the same size. Majority of workingwomen in India are from the lower strata of of our economic spectrum. If you look at any building or factory construction site you will understand that. Compared to that, upper middle class and upper class families consider the income of women as something supplementary to the original income earned by her male counterpart. It is even more eratic in very rich families. this proves my first point that poverty is not a hindrance to economic status of a women, and in fact, it works as a positive catalyst.

Literacy (means somebody who can sign his/her name) has hardly helped improving the situation in India. Amount of dowry (assuming that dowry system degrades women’s status) is always higher for a "higher educated" groom than a less educated one. Andhra Pradesh is one of such example where the amount of dowry varies even depending on whether the groom has visited USA once at least. If we consider that "the guy who went to USA for his job" is "educated" then the equation becomes more horrible. In fact that means that forget "literacy certificated" from local panchayat, even university degrees has failed to achieve anything on the ground and rather it has worsen the situation. Maybe we were better off with some illiterate bunch of paddy field workers. It has also been observed in many states like Bengal etc where the amount of dowry varies depending on the educational degree of the bride. This is further an insult to the injury as in that case education is treated as a commodity. One-way or other education or literacy system in India has failed achieve anything in improving the general status of women in India.

Does that mean that the situation has not improved? NO. The situation has improved a lot since last 50 years. But no thanks to the education system or their fathers bank balance. It has improved because of the constant struggle of the women in India in every field. They themselves have made it possible. With a very little or no help from their male counterparts, they have struggled all the way from a 100% social slavery to at least something. They have given (and still giving) tremendous effort to perform duties of both world, compared to the their male counter part.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Mohan Raju » 09 Jul 2002 08:21

Originally posted by Gyta:
...instead of this prolonged and incessant whining about it which doesnot belong there either.
See, perception is everything! To me, you are the one who is whining. You come in here, post this moral lecture about how you are so much better than everyone else, and then complain when people challenge you.

BRites may see merit in shaky hollow propaganda as opposed to no propaganda after a rape, but I am not one of them.
Who is "them"? You are not a BRite? But then...

Secondly, I believe my post belonged there.
If your post belonged there, you are a BRite.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kaushal » 09 Jul 2002 11:06

With a very little or no help from their male counterparts

That is debatable. Let us assume there is domestic violence in 20% of the households (e.g. middle class ). This is of course a high number and one cant assume the remaining 80% are paragons of virtue either, but that leaves a fairly large number of households where women are treated with respect and dignity. Again it is the tyranny of numbers that works both ways (good and bad). I maintain there are millions of men who are helping the women in this battle. In any event violence, however small the percentage above zero, against women (and children ) is unacceptable in any society that prides itself as being civilized.

The answer is women's education and empowerment. I am not a big fan of quota systems, because where these are implemented without the requisite infrastructure of education and law, you end up with the Rabri Devis of the world who are manipulated behind the scenes by unscrupulous men

Kaushal

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 09 Jul 2002 11:30

I think we should confine goal to protecting women against violence (domestic plus external). And in case of domestic voilence, there is not much society can do unless the victim at least walks out of the family and files a police complaint. Without a police complaint, it is next to impossible for policemen to act.

Now saying that education and jon will save women from violence is TRUE, but its like throwing 20 year "muddat" (date) and postponeing the problem forever.

The ONLY solution is to make women physically and economically stronger AS SOON AS possible. so education, a 20-30 years process, is useful BUT COMPLETELY INSUFFICIENT.

Here are solutions I propose

1)Using revenue of royalty of natural resource, it is possible to dole out Rs 500 to Rs 700 per month to EVERY person (man, woman, children etc). This should be done at earliest. This little cash will enable woman to walk out of her house in case she is being victimized.

2)Enacting TTT-like divorce mechanism where a woman can obtain divorce within 48 hours after filing a cliam before Magistrate, and will get child custody as well. Today, if husband does not co-operate, it is quite a clumsy process of a woman to take divorce

3)Taking literate/illiterate young/old/child women to courts and explain them the whole judicial/police process so that they become more familiar with law and its usage. Today, over 95% women are simply afraid of approaching policemen/judges for help and do so only in extreme hardship. Universalizing law education as far as possible will certainly improve the situatiom.

4)Universalize weapon education and self-defence education. A woman who can fight back will be safer than a lame duck and we cant have policemen everywhere to protect every women in time. Women should be encouraged to learn weapon-use and carry weapons.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 09 Jul 2002 13:14

Regarding laws in the Indian CrPC. The laws on the statute books are woefully inadequate to successfully prosecute rapes. A ridiculously low fraction of rapes actually lead to convictions - I unfortunately cannot present the exact reference for this, but I was deeply disturbed to hear that. I believe there are two problems and they relate to societal pressures: (1) It is incumbent on the rape victim to undergo a medical examination as soon as possible after the attack (I loathe wimpy words such as "incident"). I believe any time interval beyond 24 hrs has trouble finding acceptance in the courts. (2) Rape itself is only considered to have happened if there is "penetration".

I am not sure if (2) is obsolete if there are adequate sexual battery laws on the statue books.

In any case, if we spent less time on pointless issues such as mandirs and masjids and more time fixing the fundamental problems we have, things will be better.

Of course, better enforcement is much more important than better laws, but let us not forget the laws as they are now in our clamour for better policing.

Now some people on this thread and the other thread seem to distinguish the Paki atrocity with our local one on the basis of "being sanctioned by justice". This is so disingenuous that it makes me puke. The crude "justice" meted out by the tribal panchayat is in no way representative of the pakistani legal system (which may still be really bad). There have been plenty of cases reported in India where panchayats in rural areas have ordered young lovers from different castes t be lynched. India Today covers one such incident every 10 months on average I'd think. Let us not lose an opportunity for introspection into our own ills.

Originally posted by JE Menon:

On a more mundane level, I ask out of ignorance actually, why does the Home Minister have to make a statement on rapes when the law is clear on the subject? Or is the law not clear?
There are errors of omission and those of commission. Arafat not condemning suicide bombers in arabic is an example of disingenuous behaviour. Similarly, when an incident as terrible as gujarat took place traumatizing the country as such, it is incumbent on the home minister to make clear where he stands. By taking the initiative, he forces his subordinates (yes yes "law and order" is a state subject .. but then I believe gujarat deserved an independent cbi investigation .. not the attention of people like senor modi who have been accused of complicity). to take appropriate action.

In general, organizations perform better when there is proper executive backing for actions. By shilly-shallying on the subject, he makes it easy for people to delay and prolong investigations. An error of omission is not necessarily a crime, but it does show us the quality of the gentlemen in question with pitiless clarity.

Another parallel is when the controversy over conversions by christian missionaries and the attacks on them broke out. The soporific chap at the wheel made a statement about "the need for a national debate" instead of unequivocal condemnation. The result ? The emboldened dara singh commits a perverse act of murder. Not the PM's fault but .. Again, our driver did not stridently call for peace and calm right after Godhra .. I am confident that if he had done so we would have seen a markedly lower casualty rate.

Anyway, despite my obvious biases (although I am a BR newbie) I do not wish to derail the thread into discussing the events that the admins in their wisdom have decided not to talk about. My views hold precisely the same way for say Rajiv Gandhi and his govt in the wake of the IG assasination.

Errors of omission reveal the real qualities of our leaders. My respect for Shrub in the US comes solely by his quick actions appealing for peace against arabs and muslims in the aftermath of 9/11.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Prateek » 09 Jul 2002 13:21

>>> Using revenue of royalty of natural resource, it is possible to dole out Rs 500 to Rs 700 per month to EVERY person (man, woman, children etc). This should be done at earliest. This little cash will enable woman to walk out of her house in case she is being victimized.

Exactly how this amount is paid ? Who pays this ? and for how long ? If this continues over a longer period of time, many men will stop working and so does a women. Children, with that amount of money have all the chance in the world to go for things which he should not be doing (drugs/Smoking/Alcohol/women etc.). I don't approve this, without some rigid restrictions and unless this continue for over a shorter period of time.

>>> Enacting TTT-like divorce mechanism where a woman can obtain divorce within 48 hours after filing a cliam before Magistrate, and will get child custody as well. Today, if husband does not co-operate, it is quite a clumsy process of a woman to take divorce

Making divorces easy will not help much to either husband or wife. One can expect that the society will be more peaceful with lesser number of divorces. Child custody, if not an infant, depends on where its future lies. I mean father or mother who can take care of the child better, and also the will of the child. What if the child refuses to stay with her mom ? Divorces doesn't help stop any domestic violences.

>>>> Taking literate/illiterate young/old/child women to courts and explain them the whole judicial/police process so that they become more familiar with law and its usage. Today, over 95% women are simply afraid of approaching policemen/judges for help and do so only in extreme hardship. Universalizing law education as far as possible will certainly improve the situatiom.

Probably, by with the help of MEDIA like TV/Radio most people know the laws to some extent. But many still don't come open and complain to the police, for many reasons. You know how the police and judicial system works in INdia, highly corrupt and inefficient. Even if a women comes out and complains, because of our society and the system, women has lesser chances of coming out victorious, since MONEY can buy cops and Judges, apart from being treated low in the society in the end.

>>> Universalize weapon education and self-defence education. A woman who can fight back will be safer than a lame duck and we cant have policemen everywhere to protect every women in time. Women should be encouraged to learn weapon-use and carry weapons.

In the west and USA, women are trained to fight. But there is still a lot of domestic violence going on every where and everyday. Again instead of only the women getting hurt, you may witness both men and women getting hurt. :) This may help women to some extent, but not a complete gyarantee of safety, since after the women attacks her man, you never know, what a man is going to do if he is attacked once. He may be even more forceful in attacking the women.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Prateek » 09 Jul 2002 13:41

>>>> Excellent suggestions from Kedar and Imtiaz. I also believe advertising is a good way to spread the message on girls education.

I agree that suggestions are good, but they take care of only one side of the problem. How can one be so sure that by educating just the female children, the women abusement will stop or wil be reduced ? Is it assumed or is it a fact that all men are educated?

How do you make the men understand what they are doing is WRONG ? Women becoming educated and totally independent is not a complete solution to the problem. It's a partial solution.

How is a man going to learn to stop doing the wrong deeds? How and what is going to change their mindset w.r.t women ? Don't they need some good education too? What if a good education helps a man to stop commiting crimes against women ? will it not help ? So why not give them an opportunity to have good education too? Normally, I have seen that most of the times women are abused in uneducated families. The abuses are less, in an educated and financially OK families. So, my feeling is that, it helps if both men and women are educated.

Also, why educate only poor female children ? why not any POOR children (boy or girl, should it really matter)? I mean what if a driver or a housemaid has only male children ? You want to punish her and her family, by not providing money to her for the children education, just because she doesn't have a girl ? Doesn't their male children have the right to get educated too ?

IMHO, Literacy and education rate should be targeted to reach 99.9% % (Ignoring mentally retarded and disabled people). Every one deserves education. High % of literacy rate can cure lots of problems in the society, and this requires that both MEN and WOMEN be educated.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2002 15:44

>>Now some people on this thread and the other thread seem to distinguish the Paki atrocity with our local one on the basis of "being sanctioned by justice". This is so disingenuous that it makes me puke. The crude "justice" meted out by the tribal panchayat is in no way representative of the pakistani legal system (which may still be really bad).

I suspect the “some people” refers to me since I’m the one who responded to Gyta on this issue in the other thread. What exactly is it that heralds the puke session - That (a) an attempt is made to distinguish, or (b) that there is in fact there is no difference?

If the former: the under Hudood ordinance of 1979 the “Zina” (technically adultery) rule has covered rape in innumerable cases. It works like this: a woman is raped, she does not have 4 male witnesses; therefore, it is not rape; consequently, she is liable to be prosecuted for adultery. Hence rape victims often end up getting up to 100 lashes or more for their troubles. Not surprisingly, it does not pay to file a rape complaint – quite aside from the social stigma common in almost all oriental societies. This is what I meant by legally-sanctioned rape: in other words, the laws are such that rape is not only permitted (the 4-witness clause) de facto, but also encouraged, because under “Zina” adultery can be charged. Thus you have husbands getting a woman they want to divorce raped by someone else, and then charged with adultery – simplifying the divorce procedure (socially, not legally, speaking). Alternatively, a woman cannot file divorce from an abusive husband because he can accuse her of “Zina” and get her imprisoned (if needed) and then bail her out, effectively preventing divorce and teaching her a lesson.

If the latter: the implication that such a situation prevails in India is, hmmm, “disingenuous”? But I think I’m not morally upright enough to want to puke :rotfl:

>>There have been plenty of cases reported in India where panchayats in rural areas have ordered young lovers from different castes t be lynched. India Today covers one such incident every 10 months on average I'd think.

Of course, there is. It’s wrong. They should be prosecuted according to the law. If they do not, the problem is not with the law but in its application and enforcement. That problem should be addressed. This is quite different from the question of the Hudood ordinance.

>>Let us not lose an opportunity for introspection into our own ills.

I suspect you feel introspection into “our own ills” is only possible to those morally upright enough to want to puke at the disingenuity of lesser mortals… So yes, let’s introspect, but wait… I feel the nausea setting in (WHERE’S THE BATHROOM ? :rotfl: ). Sorry, I couldn't help that dig.

Seriously, boss, nobody’s saying things are perfect in India – but to suggest that the legal situation facing women in India and Pakistan are similar – is absolute tripe. But are you saying that? Don’t think so. From what I understand, what you’re saying is there are problems at home so why poke at Pakistan’s troubles. I recall there was a thread about women’s rights and other issues on BR Hicaf not so long ago, so we do discuss it, but this is nothing new – read any Indian newsmagazine or paper there’ll be one story at least saying how badly women are doing… All well and good, should help advance the position of women in our society. But as I said, to compare and contrast with Pakistan…. Please.

PS - this is my last post on this subject. I do not know enough about the rape laws in India, but am confident enough that they don't compare with the Hudood ord. If this difference is not obvious, there's no way I'm going to attempt to waste time to get through.

Besides, there's this fine article that N has written that I'm savouring at leisure. You chaps will have to wait for BRM :lol:

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby S Bajwa » 09 Jul 2002 19:24

The Only way that women can improve their situation is if they start earning on the par
with their male counterparts through better education and with enforcement of
anti-discrimination laws.

A woman that earns livelihood for the family or contributes substantial money in the
family has much more rights and freeddom then women who are depended upon their
husbands, fathers, brothers, etc.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4501 » 09 Jul 2002 19:46

JE Menon and others

If you think one gangrape in Pakistan has propaganda value for India, WAKE UP. Multiple gangrapes and lynchings in India were spectacularly 'visible' to the international community too.

You ask" why does the Home Minister have to make a statement on rapes when the law is clear on the subject? "

Where have you folks been? First there has to be willingness of the law and order machinery to do things the way 'the law makes clear'.

After a crime for example a rape, first an FIR must be allowed to be lodged, next it must be acted upon, investigated and prosecuted by the law and order machinery. If the accused has political influence in government, the law and order machinery can be deliberately inactive during any of these steps. Due to public apathy, amply demonstrated here, culprits and the police both escape scotfree.

This is not the first time those responsible for mass violence have escaped due to political influence over the law and order machinery:

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=2750

In Gujarat, keep vigil (May)

Check these out too:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&content Id=A49183-2002Jun2&notFound=true
Rapes Go Unpunished In Indian Mob Attacks
Muslim Women Say Claims Are Ignored (June)

http://www.ektaonline.org/cac/resources/reports/womensreport.htm
HOW HAS THE GUJARAT MASSACRE AFFECTED
MINORITY WOMEN

The Survivors Speak

http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=1719
Rape of justice

The least Gujarat police could do is to listen to the women (April end)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=12098052
Only 2 FIRs on rape in Gujarat (May)

Its known to the world at large that a large number of rapes occurred but justice is not being pursued as it should. Though there is public outcry and questions are being asked in Parliament, there is no corresponding action from the Central government. There is even denial at the extent of the tragedy perpetuated on women.

The police and law and order machinery in India are under political control. If the Gujarat government refuses to take action because its political supporters were involved, are you telling me the normal course envisaged by our constitution is that citizens must wait for the next Gujarat assembly elections, defeat Modi and only then expect justice from the state?

When all it would take to get the Gujarat police and the Gujarat administration make the the prosecution of rapes as much an administrative priority as the Godhra investigation, for instance, is a one line public utterance from the Home Minister, to the effect that 'all those guilty of rape mustnot be left unpunished'. or even 'the dishonor of our women is unacceptable'. Given that the Home Minister represents Gandhinagar in Lok Sabha, its doubly incumbent on him to speak up.

Donot discount the power of such a statement from the top level of government, it might even prevent a few men from committing rapes of hapless women in the future political/communal mob violence too.

Its also clear that the reason such a simple statement has not been made is not because its not required from a responsible leadership, its because of political 'considerations'.

Bottomline : You can't yell 'mouse' or even 'wolf' where there is an elephant in the room.

It fills me with rage, but the fact remains that the hated Musharraf comes off smelling of roses compared to the cruel apathy demonstrated by the Indian government. As I said earlier, it would indeed pay if Indians too sometimes thought of their image. (edited)

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 09 Jul 2002 21:16

Folks,

I tend to agree with what Gyta says in her previous post. People who live in glass houses musn’t throw stones at others. The status of women in India is way below that of the menfolk - infact way below anything else.

Rapes and dowry murders are ofcourse serious crimes but there is so much more that goes on in India in terms of harassment of women. The pressure to produce a male child, discriminations in inheritance according to Hindu laws, poor nutrition compared to the male child, obstructions in the path of pursuing higher education – pressure to get married and settle into domesticity rather than be provided an opportunity to explore their talents and develop skills and contribute to society in other ways than simply through reproduction.

While some of this may be limited to economically backward regions/communities, economic prosperity does not necessarily mean social liberalism. You’d be amazed to see how conservative many of the prosperous communities in Gujarat are when it comes to providing higher education to their sisters, daughters etc. as well as allowing them to be financially independent (this is specifically applicable to certain communities in the State of Gujarat and not to Gujaratis living elsewhere). Many times it is the husbands/in-laws who put forward conditions before marriage saying that the bride must be a housewife.

In the north, especially in cities like Delhi – eve-teasing is an everyday hassle which women/young girls must go through. And this is not limited to verbal catcalls, winks and whistles. Travel on Delhi’s Blueline buses to see hooligans openly grabbing women, rubbing themselves against them and what not. Women who complain often times receive no support from other passengers or even cops.

Through anti-dowry laws, perhaps bride burning has reduced in recent years, but dowry harassment cases still remain high. Since I have lived in the north, I know that in Punjab, Delhi, UP, Bihar (and perhaps even the south though I don’t know much about it) to get a daughter married is a major drain on the parents’ resources and often times the greed is not quenched even after giving large sums as dowry.

And as has been pointed out, inspite of magnificent laws crimes such as rape have very low conviction rates in India. JE Menon says that because Pakistan has implemented the Hudood Ordinance which legalizes rape and provides virtually very little room for women in their society to seek justice and India has laws to punish rapes, the two cannot be compared. But what is the ground reality? How easy is it for a rape victim in India to pursue and eventually get justice? Remember justice delayed is justice denied. So it matters not if the Indian woman can go to court and present her case. Eventually (and as mostly happens when higher castes or politicians or the bureaucracy is involved) the law almost always lets the perpetrators go scot free. Look at the Bhanwari Devi case in Rajasthan… she is yet to get justice. Look at the Priyadarshini Mattoo case in Delhi. In what way are similar Pakistani victims worse-off?

Our laws are very good in theory and some of us feel proud that in theory atleast we are granting equal rights to women to pursue justice through these laws – but these laws remain just what they are – theoretical. It is not just enforcement that is the problem. Social conditioning of both men and women in our country from the beginning has been so severely flawed that one doesn’t know what it will take to improve an average Indian woman’s lot.

On a positive note, I do feel that our society has changed for the better and certainly many women are coming forward in almost all professions and asserting their identities. But there is a long path ahead and I personally wouldn’t showcase the status of women in Indian society as a beacon of light versus the status of Pakistani women.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 09 Jul 2002 21:25

Pls lets not bring Pak into picture. Pls dont compare India with Pak, compare instead compare India with some CIVILIZED country of west such as Sweden, Norway, Germany, Canada, US etc. West is the way to go.

Rahul says: Using revenue of royalty of natural resource, it is possible to dole out Rs 500 to Rs 700 per month to EVERY person (man, woman, children etc). This should be done at earliest. This little cash will enable woman to walk out of her house in case she is being victimized.

Mudder says: Exactly how this amount is paid ?
In India, the PSU (= neta/babu/judges + contractors) and some private companies have hogged up natural resources as if it their dad's property. So the state gets sub-peanuts of the market value of use/mining rights of the natural resources. I am try to device ADMINSTRATIVE PROCEDURES by which it becomes possible to collect the actual market value of natural resource and divide it equally amongst citizens.

Who pays this ? and for how long ?
The natural resource users have to pay as per the market value. How long, as long as the resource last.

eg in case of coal mines, the due to babu-contractor mili-bhagat, GoI does not even get 10% of market value of the coal below ground. (mkt value of coal below ground = sale price of coal in mkt - cost of digging - transport cost - cost of covering some risks). Using more participatory procedures, the revenue can be increased and should be distributed amongst the "owners" of the coal below the ground which is we, the people of [that perticular state/district])

eg as per rumor I heard, people in Saudi Arabia recieve payments from state in return of royalty state gets from crude-oil. I am NOT sure if this is true or not. But regardless, why shouldny every Indian get a share in royalty of natural resources that GoI gets? The money should FIRST go to citizens pockets, then GoI may collect income etc tax on it.

If this continues over a longer period of time, many men will stop working and so does a women. Children, with that amount of money have all the chance in the world to go for things which he should not be doing (drugs/Smoking/Alcohol/women etc.). I don't approve this, without some rigid restrictions and unless this continue for over a shorter period of time.
The revenue of natural resources MUST be divided as equally as possible as we, the citizens, own the natural resources. What one does with his share of money (drugs, liquor etc) is his PRIVATE life and MUST not be taken into account. eg say X's father has Rs 100,00,000 in bank. Should state confiscate Rs 100,00,000 by saying "see if X gets Rs 100,00,000, he will give upo work and start drinking etc." The argument is unethical. What I do with my money is my business and should NOT be a state concern.

Same way, revenue of royalty of natural resource MUST go equitably amongst its owners (i.e. citizens), even if some waste it away in lqiuor etc.

Rahul says: Enacting TTT-like divorce mechanism where a woman can obtain divorce within 48 hours after filing a cliam before Magistrate, and will get child custody as well. Today, if husband does not co-operate, it is quite a clumsy process of a woman to take divorce

mudder: Making divorces easy will not help much to either husband or wife. One can expect that the society will be more peaceful with lesser number of divorces. Child custody, if not an infant, depends on where its future lies. I mean father or mother who can take care of the child better, and also the will of the child. What if the child refuses to stay with her mom ? Divorces doesn't help stop any domestic violences.
Divorce is the ONE and ONLY ONE known solution to domestic violence problem, unless husband reforms himself, which is less than 1 in 1000 cases.

If a man/in-law is a wife-beater, earlier the divorce betterer. Wife-beating ALWAYS gets worse and worse as time passes and eventually ends in a fatal injury or even death. Even if there is no death, in over 99% cases, the woman ends up a as pysocological wreck, becomes used to beatings and becomes a zombie. In such cases, life is worse than death.

Lets ACCEPT the limitation of law/policemen/judges : No law/policemen/judges can protect the wife from a wife-beater AT THAT VERY MOMENT when husband (or in-law) is beating a woman. The most policemen/judges can do is to punish the beater, but ONLY if the beating was so intense that there are visible injury marks or if there are witnesses. No visible marks, no witness, sorry, no case and policemen/judge cant help. Now in over 99% cases, you neighter have witnesses nor marks. And the wife's testimony cant be assumed as 100% truth as there have been too many case of false complaints in past.

So sorry, other than fast divorce and economic support to divorcee, there is NO WAY I know of helping a woman who is suffering domestic violence.

Govt of Gujarat pays Rs 500/mo to every divorcee. I support this move and think it should increase as per increase in money-supply (M3).

mudder: Child custody, if not an infant, depends on where its future lies. I mean father or mother who can take care of the child better, and also the will of the child.
If the child is below 14, I dont think his will is admissible or should be even made admissible. A young kid can be always forced to speak against his will in the court. As per, "better future" how is judge/anyone going to decide which parent can provide better future? This is too subjective EVEN if we have all the necessary information. And gathering and verifying all the information is going to very time consuming and expensive affair for the court. And as a citizen/taxpayer, I will have to pay the all the court expenses.

eg consider a district of 10,00,000. say there 20,000 marriages a year and say there are 2000 divorces a year with 1 or 2 kids. If the court takes say 5 days to decide the child custody, then altogather 2000*5 = 10,000 court-days are needed. A court can work 200 days a year. That means the district will need 50 courts just for child custody issue. That is hell lot of expense on citizens' heads.

The divorce/custody/alimony laws MUST be simple enough that a court can resolve them in 1 day or less. The SIMPLEST law I can think of is --- instant divorce at eighter party's demand, alimony = Rs X hundred per mo. or as written in contract, child-custody to mother and end of the trial.

If a mother is facing a possibility of losing the child, it is very likely that she will keep tolerating an abusive husband. So law MUST be clear on custody issue and it must be on woman's side on THIS (child custody) issue.

Also, biologically/emotionally, be man or any mammal or any egg laying animal, mother-child bond is 100 to 1000 times stronger than father-child bond. Biologically, mother has to undergo far greater pain in birthing and raising a child than father (no I dont care about women votes). In fact, father-child bond is over 99% cultural/social than biological/true-emotional. So even from bio-emotional point of view, it is better if law CLEARLY states that woman will keep the child IRRESPECTIVE of any other conditions. There is LESS injustice is denying child to a father than denying child to a mother.

Unless the woman is ensured of child custody, there is no way she can ever raise her head against domestic violence.

Rahul says: Taking literate/illiterate young/old/child women to courts and explain them the whole judicial/police process so that they become more familiar with law and its usage. Today, over 95% women are simply afraid of approaching policemen/judges for help and do so only in extreme hardship. Universalizing law education as far as possible will certainly improve the situatiom.

mudder says: Probably, by with the help of MEDIA like TV/Radio most people know the laws to some extent. But many still don't come open and complain to the police, for many reasons. You know how the police and judicial system works in INdia, highly corrupt and inefficient. Even if a women comes out and complains, because of our society and the system, women has lesser chances of coming out victorious, since MONEY can buy cops and Judges, apart from being treated low in the society in the end.
Thanks for saying that policemen/judges are CORRUPT. You saved me lot of trouble :) . But thats why I want TTT (Talaq Talaq Talaq) type simple procedures and guranteed child custody so that there is minimal dependence on policemen/judges.

Rahul says: Universalize weapon education and self-defence education. A woman who can fight back will be safer than a lame duck and we cant have policemen everywhere to protect every women in time. Women should be encouraged to learn weapon-use and carry weapons.

mudder says: In the west and USA, women are trained to fight. But there is still a lot of domestic violence going on every where and everyday. Again instead of only the women getting hurt, you may witness both men and women getting hurt. :)
The weapon-use is to overcome external violence, not domestic. Consider the situation if EVERYONE in India in 1947 at the time of partition had weapons. There would have been fewer casulties amongst hindus/sikhs, women asas well as men. Say everyone had weapons in Naroda-patia. Fewer would have died and fewer women would have suffered. Weapons are God's gift to man/woman-kind. Didnt Dr K explained why nukes are cool? Apply the same logic at individual level and you will realize that guns are cool.

About a debate if Home Minister of India, LKA, was ignoring the riot-victims : we are discussing a lame issue. It is MORE THAN ESTABLISHED fact that Modi had threatened actions (transfer/suspension) to policemen if they tried to protect the muslims. When policemen leave weaponless folks to mobs, what else do you expect --- murder, arson, rape etc etc. So yes Modi and those spineless police chiefs are criminals, and judges are NOT going to punish them. To those who really feel sad about it, I can ONLY say following : want justice? get gun/RDX and become a judge-cum-executioner yourself. Pls dont expect any REAL help from anyone. I dont have any other better suggestion. It is best we end "is Modi a criminal" matter for good. Any further discussion on this is waste of time.

Originally posted by Ponniyin Selvan:
Regarding laws in the Indian CrPC. ...
The problem with rape case is a funadamental question "to what extent should testimony of victim should be taken as true WITHOUT supporting material evidences or witnesses?" The west has solved this problem by giving powers to Jurors --- Jurors are free to convict a person even if there are ZERO material evidences. In India, judges dont have such wide powers. And handing over such powers to punish accused WITHOUT material evidence is something I disagree as I have zero faith in judges' integrity. So this problem remains unsolved.

Another major problem in rape cases in India is the sheer length that a trial takes. In US, typical rape cases are over WITHIN 20-30 days after an accused is arrested. The cases in court take mere 3-7 days after first hearing. In India, 3-7 years time after accused is arrested is normal. Only way out is to increase taxes and improve tax-collection to beef up our police-staff, recruit more forensic experts and create more courts.

-Rahul Mehta

shiv
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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2002 21:28

I see a great deal of confusion here.

There seems to be some deep anguish and guilt that just because women in India are treated like bulls#it - we must not talk about ill treatment of women in Pakistan. I consider this quite ridiculous.

Different people may want to dicuss different issues. This is a forum for that and there is no need to bring in a biblical "Look at the beam in your eye before you look at the mote in mine business"

This thread is about the status of women in india. there is a separate forum where the gang rape of a woma in Pakistan. Why spend all this bandwidth on trying to shut up some people and stop them from discussing what they want to discuss just because others feel that they must turn their attention to women in India.

Cool off people. Talk about lousy treatement of women everywhere. Don't haggle about whom to talk aboput or what totalk about.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Bibhas » 09 Jul 2002 22:27

Kaushal,

I agree that in the sentence "With a very little or no help from their male counterparts.." the words "no help" was not appropriate. But I could not agree on the reason you cited. Here are my arguments

Firstly, Domestic violence or the lack of it can not be regarded as an yard stick of general women status. Lack of domestic violance can also be due to general submissive natures of Indian women to there families and fate. All their life they work very hard and compromise their personal freedom for buying peace for the family.

Secondly, It is very weird but true that majority of the reported incidence of domestic violence against women includes at least another women as primary offender. Torture & harrasment of newly weded bride by Mother-in-laws or Sister-in-laws are very common in rural, sub-urban or even in urban areas. It is therefore a very complicated sociological issues and can not be directly attached with status of women in India.

The respect for women in India is sometimes a two-way sword. I know that there are few people who respect women in the real sense of the term. But there percentage in 1 billion population is very low. Understanding of the word "honour & respect for women" for many Indians is very close to that of the Pakis who burn their sisters and daughters throwing acid for honour.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby jarugn » 10 Jul 2002 01:21

Every 14 seconds an American Woman gets beaten (Ads at Chicago EL-Train platform)- what does that tell you? That America is a nation of women beaters? Not.

The truth is statistics can be manipulated. Feminists by no means are handicapped at manipulating statistics. That is not to say that the problem of subjugation of women is not pervasive in India or for that matter in the US. It is and should be addressed in a pragmatic fashion by obtaining hard data. I have been looking for data on India and I can say it is very hard to find. You hear the occassional middle class bride burning/wife murde making into the papers but much is under reported. For a nation of billion the statistics don't appear to be staggering, If it is, I wish to see some reference or citation.

Social backwardness takes years to correct.

Mob violence is far less insideous violence against women than pre-meditated violence. In India abuse of women tends to be pre-meditated, malicious and revengeful. Temporory insanity type cases are far and few in between.

The best way to solve this problem is tough laws, swift justice and EDUCATION. Don't let the cases drag in courts; it might even warrant special courts to send the message on domestic violence and abuse of women. To root out the problem lot more mandatory education and counseling is needed.

Just imagine a required course at high-school on domestic-violence/assault on women prevention. It will have quick results.

On the other hands most parents in India wish their off-spring to study computers and medicine than sociology, psychology or law. This has to change. These subjects are good indicators of social development.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Umrao » 10 Jul 2002 01:30

Originally posted by jarugn:
Every 14 seconds an American Woman gets beaten - what does that tell you?
The Other 46 seconds the Man gets beaten. :lol:

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Prateek » 10 Jul 2002 01:35

[quote]Originally posted by John Umrao:
The Other 46 seconds the Man gets beaten. :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Jodhka » 10 Jul 2002 02:00

How are these figures arrived at?

There are 24*60*60 seconds in a day.
14 seconds --> 1 woman
means
24*60*60 ---> 24*60*60/14 women a day
= 6171 (approx)

There are 365 days in a year.
Means last year 6171 * 365 = 2.25 million women were beaten.

Is that so?

jarugn
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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby jarugn » 10 Jul 2002 02:19

http://www.acfc.org/essay/brott1.htm

According to Donna Shalala, Secretary of Health and Human Services, for example, 4 million women are battered each year by their male partners. But where did Shalala get her figure? From a 1993 Harris poll commissioned by the Commonwealth Fund. Two percent of the 2,500 women interviewed said they had been "kicked, bit, hit with a fist or some other object.'' Apply that to the approximately 55 million women married or living with a man and you get a total of 1.1 million. So where did the other 2.9 million come from? They were women who said they had been ""pushed, grabbed, shoved, or slapped.'' That's a form of abuse, to be sure, but is it what most people would call battering?

----------------

Umrao
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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Umrao » 10 Jul 2002 02:20

Originally posted by Jaspreet:
How are these figures arrived at?

There are 24*60*60 seconds in a day.
14 seconds --> 1 woman
means
24*60*60 ---> 24*60*60/14 women a day
= 6171 (approx)

There are 365 days in a year.
Means last year 6171 * 365 = 2.25 million women were beaten.

Is that so?
2.25 million is not correct, because the same woman/man could be beaten. we have to do a select distinct (in sql). So it could be 2.25 episodes of not so pleasent interaction between man and woman.

also remember

"In love's war He who fleath is the conqueror"


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