Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Women's status in Indian society

Imtiaz Ahmed
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Chicago

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 15 Jul 2002 22:36

I am sure there is a rational explanation, though I dont know what it is in this specific instance, because I do not know what was exactly done. The confidence stems from a recent TV show that showed a group of rationalists in India that tour villages and perform tricks to educate the public. The tricks include walking on fire (ash and moisture on the soles - feet are washed with water prior to the walk - permit almost anyone to walk on hot coal), inserting needles and hooks through one's skin (if done right it is not painful at all and has nothing to do with any lack of pain induced by "faith"), etc.

Atish
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 07 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 15 Jul 2002 22:43

There is gotta be a way for guys and gals to interact and fall in love and stuff. I mean if u dont tell guys what is proper and what is not, they get confused. A lot of guys are just confused about right and wrong. They are not depraved or frustrated creatures. In any case, no woman should be subject to unwelcome advances.

I know for a lot of guys are unable to engage in perfectly normal flirting and wooing coz they confuse it with eve teasing. I mean they are so petrified of being accused of teasing that go to the other extreme. Deuced painful personal experience.

Nate
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 8
Joined: 04 Jun 2002 11:31
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Nate » 16 Jul 2002 00:44

Someone in one of the posts mentioned that the onlookers do not generally agree/throw their weight(literally?) behind the victim in the case of eve teasing. From what I have seen, if the girl objects and brings the attention of onlookers in the "Singara Chennai" buses, the general trend is to use the aggressor as a good punching bag by all and sundry present! This behavior however, (strangely though) does not manifest till the woman lodges her protest vocally!

Eshwar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 12 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Eshwar » 16 Jul 2002 02:11

Could not find the related thread anywhere. So posting here.

From India-Today subscription site:

RELIGION: MUSLIM CHILD MARRIAGE
Nothing Personal

The Muslim Law Board discovers that a 73-year-old law on child marriage is against the Shariat

By Lakshmi Iyer
INNOCENT VICTIM: The AIMPLB claims it wants to protect the girl child's interest

It took the cussedness of a jilted Hyderabad lover Mazhar Hussaini to push his entire community into rooting for child marriage. Way back in June 1997, when he was only 18, Hussaini moved the Andhra Pradesh High Court to frame charges under the Child Marriage (Restraint) Act, 1929-better known as the Sharda Act-against the parents of his cousin Fatima Mehezabin, 17, for marrying her off to another cousin. Hussaini persisted with the case and in November 2001, he finally won.

The quaint Sharda Act does not nullify the marriage but only penalises abettors with a three-month jail term. Mehezabin's parents and four others were found guilty. It was the inclusion of a government employee among the accused that set the cat among the pigeons, since he stood to lose retirement benefits. The All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) got into the act and fashioned a new line of defence. At its annual three-day meeting in Hyderabad in June, the board declared that since the Sharda Act preceded the Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937, it was not applicable to Muslims. It also filed an intervention application in the Supreme Court which is hearing an appeal by Mehezabin's relatives against the high court ruling.

"Why do courts rush to interpret the Koran when they are not equipped to do so?"
Yusuf Muchchala, Muslim Law Board member

Community leaders, in tandem with the AIMPLB, have since been working overtime to justify its controversial move. Senior Supreme Court advocate Yusuf Muchchala, who is on the 30-member AIMPLB executive committee, argues that there is nothing retrograde about its stand. "Law cannot be an instrument of social engineering. The country has been passing laws without considering socioeconomic conditions of the Muslims, like the spread of education among them."

Chartered accountant Kamal Farooqui says the AIMPLB does not want to encourage child marriages but only wants to ensure that exit routes are not closed when a girl child is in a piquant situation like an unwanted pregnancy. The AIMPLB, he contends, was primarily guided by the lofty mission of providing an honourable life to girls orphaned by Gujarat riots. "This is not a retrograde step, but a positive response. Hindus should also be permitted to perform such marriages," says Farooqui.

Liberal Muslims, including women activists, are shocked. Yet they do not see this as a right moment to talk of reforms as "post-Gujarat the community is under siege". Says Syeda Hameed of the Muslim Women Forum: "We will not confront but convince the AIMPLB about the perils of its stand." Former MP Syed Shahabuddin says he would have opposed the decision if he had attended the Hyderabad conclave. Only Zuhara of Nisa, an NGO working in Malappuram district of Kerala, went on record opposing the AIMPLB.

Legal eagles, however, admit that what has really irked the AIMPLB is the manner in which both the Supreme Court and the high courts interpret the Muslim Women Act, 1986. "While the courts refrain from interpreting the Hindu scriptures, why do they rush to interpret the Koran when they are not equipped to do so?" asks Muchchala. But then Muslim personal law is not outside the Constitution and so not beyond judicial scrutiny.

Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 17 Jul 2002 00:12

Originally posted by sbajwa:
Eveteasing is definetely a cultural problem and a growing one at that. .. I blame Raj kapoor to Amitabh Bachchan to Anil Kapoor on the erosion of our values.
It is NOT cultural; it is 100% legal i.e. due to lcak of law-enforcement. The problem is ONLY becuase policemen/courts are NOT punishing the offenders. There is NO reason to blame the movie-makers. Yes, the movie makers are spoiling the heads of youth, but a criminal ALWAYS weighs the situation and makes a move ONLY when he feels safe from punishment. If the policemen/courts improve, and even if there are 100 times more romeos in movies, the romeogiri in street would decline.

Originally posted by Aditi:
There are orientation courses organized by NGOs, UN bodies, Government Institutions etc on ‘gender sensitization’. ...
Ignore NGOs (jhola-wala/walies) and such academicians. As if "sensitization" is going to remove crimes, corruption, ill-treament etc. If you listen to NGOs, they will advice that we should remove all policemen/courts and have "classes" to reform criminals.

3. However, Rahulji’s TTTT had me totally zapped. Okay so the battered woman gets a tatkal divorce, does it mean she is better off than before? Why should she take the final step of divorce till the errant husband is made, through a court of law to pay for her/ children’s subsistence? I can on the other hand imagine the husband merrily using the TTTT double quick, to get rid of a wife/children he does not care for any more.
To explain clearly : TTT = Talaq Talaq Talaq = a law by which EIGHTER party, if wants divorce decree, he can obtain it WITHOUT having to provide any reasons. No questions asked.

TTTT = Tatkal TTT = if a party wants divorce decree fast, and is willing to pay a high court fee, should get decree within 72 hours. To implement this, every Tahsil should have 3-4 Tatkal Divorce windows where Magistrates/bailifs etc are available on 24 hour 365 day basis.

Tatkal TTT DOES NOT mean husband can escape from alimony etc. It means that for a higher fee the Magistrate will move the case at a lighening pace and nothing more. Alimony will be there, as per the law and/or as per the pre-neputial contract.

Okay so the battered woman gets a tatkal divorce, does it mean she is better off than before?
Thats is for a woman to decide, whether she wants a divorce or not, whether she will be better off with divorce or better off with a wife-beater. Sorry, babu/judges/society cant help her decide this. But if she has decided, Tatkal TTT scheme can assist her by getting divorce-decree, alimony and child custody at lighetning speed.

(Aside: Law cannot and SHOULD NOT try to improve a husband so as wife would love him more. Law should imprison a bad husband. Law should enable a wife to secede from a marriage ASAP if she wants. The Law should confiscate husband's wealth/income ASAP to get her alimony. But the Law MUST NOT force husband to "change" his life style. To be more specific, a woman can state whether she wants divorce, how much alimony she wants etc But, before the Law, a woman has no right to say "Force my husband to give up liquor etc".)

Why should she take the final step of divorce till the errant husband is made, through a court of law to pay for her/ children’s subsistence?
As per my TTTT proposal, If the husband wants Tatkal Divorce, he MUST pay at least 6 to 12 months of alimony/child-support IN ADVANCE, the amount will be decided as per the law and/or as per the pre-neputial contract, and will be decided by the court.

If wife wants a Tatkal divorce, the divorce will be granted IMMIDIATEDLY, and the amount will be decided within a week by the court, and the husband will have to pay from day-one.

Once again, TTT ONLY means "no reason to be given." And TTTT means Tatkal. It DOES NOT mean alimony is waived.

I can on the other hand imagine the husband merrily using the TTTT double quick, to get rid of a wife/children he does not care for any more.
As I said, TTT or TTTT cant be used to escape from alimony. In fact, as I proposed, if husband wants Tatkal Divorce, he will have to pay 6 to 12 months alimony in ADVANCE as decided by the court.

I had seen a very practical solution to the ‘uncaring’ husband syndrome. The battered wife approached the husband’s office stating that the husband did not give any money for subsistence of the family, and spent the amount in booze and womanizing. The employer got the credentials of the case investigated independently, and decided that the salary due to the husband would only be credited to the joint bank account of the husband and wife. The wife was not educated. There was no divorce, as the wife did not press for it, and the man had little choice in denying his family their legitimate support.
In US, I have seen court orders where courts order the employers to mail some 10% to 30% salaries to ex-wife and give only the remaining to the employee. Thats is an excellent way to implement alimony.

But the employer mentioned in above example, if he did it WITHOUT court-order, should be fined/imprisoned by a court. An employer has NO moral/legal right to investigate and decide upon a dispute between husband/wife or ex-husband/ex-wife. What is next? Use street-criminals to evict tenants?

I think courts and ONLY courts should have right to cut payments from husband's salaries and give it to the ex-wife or wife.

Now while we discuss those who harass women in buses etc., lets not forget a more henious category of such romeos. There are full-timers who "cultivate" affairs with women and then force them into prostitution, and skim-off their incomes. There are some full-timers who specialize in teenagers as there are plenty of sick rich men who want a virgin and offer 1000s of rupees. These criminals often have protection of local policmen/magistrates and they seldom get punished, and so such crimes flourish. we better fix our policemen/courts if we want to reduce victims in this category.

Atish says:There is gotta be a way for guys and gals to interact and fall in love and stuff.
I agree. But here is what I once observed. There was a small hotel in Abad which started renting rooms for Rs 50/hr. Collagians and adult couples started using this hotel big time. And guess what? Some moral-policmen made a huge noise and then policemen raided this hotel, arrested some 20-30 couples, some were underage boys/girls etc. The hotel owner was beaten up and forced to pay bribe. The men were beaten and forced to pay bribes. In case of some boys/girls, the policemen called their parents to police-station and threatened them an expose in newspaper if they dont pay bribes. The hotel stopped renting room for cheapand switched to usual Rs 250/day.

There was NO forced prostitution, and in fact, there was NO prostitution in that hotel. Yet the policemen raided the place. I think such cheap hotels REDUCE sexual violence problem, and it is our moral-police and police which is stopping such meeting places to come up. Sometimes, I think we should lock up our moral policemen along with romeos. That will result in a bigger reducation in harassment.

Also, if can one fix laws so that a large number of cheap "closet apartments" or "coffin apratments" (small 8 ft by 8ft apartments with attached bathroom, the kind of apts you see in NYC) all over India, with cheap rent, then the teens will move out and will have a place of their own. Then they will have more and better opputunity to interact freely. This too will decrease unwanted behavior. Having said so, I dont know which legislations will ensure that a large number of cheap small coffin apartments come up.

-Rahul Mehta

member_3084
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_3084 » 17 Jul 2002 00:25

"Why do courts rush to interpret the Koran when they are not equipped to do so?"
Yusuf Muchchala, Muslim Law Board member
:)Are they [this so called Muslim board]equiped to do so???? Then they have to bring something from the same Koran to support their funny claims. Those shariyah laws are nothing but the words from hadith[In Hindu mythology, Smruthi] and not from Koran.

When we will see some Muslims organize to fight the real evils of their society?[One man army is not enough..it was proved when a Moulavi got killed in Kerala for his Koranic arguments against shariah. Quran is the right word I think.

H Vyas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 17
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby H Vyas » 24 Jul 2002 21:10

one case of agni pareeksha started this thread....and here I am again, with another sick story. What kind of sicko does this to his own wife??? This is insane....the guys need to get rigorous punishment for their crime.

Man records wife's rape; seeks divorce in Rajasthan
You don't need a tribal council to shame a woman. Rape is such a social weapon, a husband in Govindgarh town of Rajasthan will tell you. He decided to use this "weapon" on his wife so he could get a divorce.

Jangir Singh is cooling his heels in jail after he conceded that he got his brother and nephew to rape his wife so that he could get a divorce, Additional Superintendent of Police Dungarsingh Chudawat said.

member_4383
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4383 » 24 Jul 2002 21:30

Originally posted by krish:
one case of agni pareeksha started this thread....and here I am again, with another sick story. What kind of sicko does this to his own wife??? This is insane....the guys need to get rigorous punishment for their crime.

Man records wife's rape; seeks divorce in Rajasthan
You don't need a tribal council to shame a woman. Rape is such a social weapon, a husband in Govindgarh town of Rajasthan will tell you. He decided to use this "weapon" on his wife so he could get a divorce.

Jangir Singh is cooling his heels in jail after he conceded that he got his brother and nephew to rape his wife so that he could get a divorce, Additional Superintendent of Police Dungarsingh Chudawat said.
The most suitable punishment for an act like this is to "cut the genitals" ...but then again, we are democracy.

Ajay K
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 04 Aug 2001 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ajay K » 28 Jul 2002 20:19


Pakistan son murders mother in latest "honour" killing
ISLAMABAD, July 28 (AFP): A 35-year-old Pakistani widow was shot dead by her son carrying out an 'honour killing' to end her affair with a man from her village, the official APP news agency reported on Sunday.

Widow Mehr Bibi had developed "illicit relations" with a man identified as Ramzan (eds: one name) at a village near the city of Lahore, 250 kilometres (156 miles) south-east of here, APP said.

"On Saturday night when her son, Muhammad Razaaq, found his mother absent from home. He along with two other persons went to the house of Ramzan where they found Mehr Bibi and Ramzan in (an) objectionable position... they opened fire on them," APP said.

The news agency said that the victim's relatives had warned her to "mend her ways" and stay away from her lover but "she did not care".

The so-called 'honour' killings are widespread in Pakistan and accounted for the deaths of 40 women in Punjab province in the first half of this year, according to human rights activists.

The term refers to punishment killings for women who 'dishonour' their families.
© 2002 AFP
Folks, we are far better than our neighbour !

Sridhar
BRFite
Posts: 834
Joined: 01 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Sridhar » 28 Jul 2002 20:46

Our own RAPE class speaks. When the discussion is about Indian women's status, point to TSP or Saudi Arabia to show how bad women's condition elsewhere really is.

A certificate that we are better than TSP or Saudi Arabia is not worth the paper it is printed on!!

Ajay K
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 04 Aug 2001 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ajay K » 30 Jul 2002 09:34

Our own RAPE class speaks.....
Oops wrong place to post, my mistake. Hope this post is relevant to the thread.

Police Abuse of AIDS Workers

Most of the abuse of women in India is partly due to the psyche of the Indian male and the Hindu caste system.
Reminded of the popular quote "Men think between their legs".

member_4383
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4383 » 06 Aug 2002 19:57

There we go again...
Sati reported in Madhya Pradesh :mad:

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby saint » 06 Aug 2002 22:12

She is not even teen, not mid, but an old lady.. police tried and now you can't blame the administration.

Its the people!!! read web page

Pennathur
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 14 Aug 1999 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Pennathur » 06 Aug 2002 22:28

Rather than looking at things statistically - incidence of violence against women - date rape or road rape (euphemistically called eve-teasing); domestic murder (dowry death, agnipariksha etc.,) one should look at why and how these things happened. A woman committing sati or being forced into it; reflects very very poorly on our state of social development. The practice is entirely Indian and should not happen in any circumstances. The law enforecement mechanism in India contrary to what we think is pretty good in these cases even in remote villages. Police are usually quick to swing into action because there is zero political/public tolerance for such deeds. In the cities the law descends on you like a tonne of bricks. But that is not enough. How do we prevent these deeds? We must incessantly din it into childrens' heads that these practices are plain evil and unacceptable. Children must be taught that marriage as a modern institution has no room for the pati-paramaeshwar nonsense. (I am married and can assure you that men are pretty much at the receiving end :D in a marriage)
You would never hear of such an incident in the South or the West or East of India. Why do we hear it only in certain parts of the North. The hold of tradition must be broken mercilessly.

As for road-rape; every incident must be hunted down with ruthlessness. Some years back the killers of a college student (Sarika Shah) in Madras were tracked down and brought to book within 5 days. Wish we could do that with every incident. I know of how the students of Madras Christian College came together to thrash road-rape thugs about 20 years back; as the police did not bother to do anything about it.

Atish
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 07 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 17 Aug 2002 23:40

What the F%uck is wrong with these people? What are these "middle class sensibilities" that the subhuman scum from TOI is talking about? God forgive and help us all.

H Vyas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 17
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby H Vyas » 18 Aug 2002 04:32

Indian pen-pushers have no qualms about mud-slinging the govt. on foreign policy and every other topic, just to show how macho they are.

When it comes to saving one girl, they become pussy cats. Just shows the stupidity that's out there and the character of those who write our newspapers. Shame shame :(

Aditi Parikh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 25 Aug 2002 07:57

For women, metro street's a dark alley

Explaining the phenomenon, Kiran Singh, president Janawadi Mahila Samiti says, "The reason for sexual assault and violence against women is their subordinate and unequal status in society. Offenders know there will be no backlash."
Part of the problem lies in the mindset of metros. According to psychologists, urban apathy is primarily responsible for the increasing brazenness of the offenders.
According to the C-voter survey, a majority of women feel wearing western dresses does not invite trouble while most men feel it is bound to. It's time the male gaze grew more liberal and mindsets changed.

Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 25 Aug 2002 14:58

Explaining the phenomenon, Kiran Singh, president Janawadi Mahila Samiti says, "The reason for sexual assault and violence against women is their subordinate and unequal status in society. Offenders know there will be no backlash."
What above listed thought would mean "unless women and men become somewhat equal, violence against women would not reduce" which would mean "just wait for another 20-40 years till men/women become equal". I disagree with that. WITHOUT waiting till women's status improves, it is possible to reduce violence againt women by imprisoning the aggressors. How? Bby improving pandu/courts. How? seperate topic.

Part of the problem lies in the mindset of metros. According to psychologists, urban apathy is primarily responsible for the increasing brazenness of the offenders.
When something is within reach, I may try to achieve that goal. But if it is way beyond reach, I may loose interest, which is NOT same as saying I have apathy.

I cant speak for all metro-ites, but most *are* worried about violence of all types, incl violence and assult against women. Everyone has wives, daughters, sisters etc. whom they care for and worry about. There is no apathy, but helplessness as and ONLY becuase it is becoming more and more difficult to imprison the agrresors these days, again thanks to pathetic pandu/kazies/laws.

The psycologist is *assuming* that solution (i.e. punishing the aggressor) is easily within reach, in which case NOT trying for solution can be RIGHTLY labelized as apathy. But we know that psycologist's assumption *is* wrong. The solution (i.e. punishing the aggressor) is NOT easy and so lack of interest is "helplessness", NOT "apathy"

So we DO NOT need to improve awareness in citizens in this issue, as we already have more than enough awareness and every citizen *is* worried about safety of women. In fact, it would be wrongly insulting to citizens to say that "citizens are not aware about this issue". We only need to fix pandu/courts/laws/procedures to get more and more aggresors into prisons.

(Aside, changing real estate related laws can also decrease violence against women in a remote but significant way, but that is a SEPERATE topic).

-Rahul Mehta

Aditi Parikh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 29 Aug 2002 20:17

Rediff is doing a special on women's safety in various metropolitan cities in India. So far they've done reports on Mumbai and Kolkata:

Fear in the Cities

Kolkata: Safe streets, unsafe offices

Mumbai: Citizen's indifference is the problem

I have no doubt in my mind though which city is going to be declared the worst in terms of women's safety. Its definitely Delhi... which is a shame. As a Delhite, I have wonderful memories of growing up in the City and I sincerely wish the officials and the citizens of Delhi do more to address this problem.

S Bajwa
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 11 Jan 1999 12:31
Location: pittsburgh,pa, usa
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby S Bajwa » 29 Aug 2002 21:20

have no doubt in my mind though which city is going to be declared the worst in terms of women's safety. Its definitely Delhi... which is a shame.
Most of the North Indians have lost their sense of
1. Ethics.
2. Morality.
3. Character.
4. Dignity.
and I 100% blame it on Bollywood, TV and the Subsidized by Tax payers "College culture" .

Aditi Parikh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 29 Aug 2002 22:01

Sbajwa,

I share your despair as well but I wouldn't be so harsh on Bollywood or for that matter North Indians alone. Many recent films emanating from Bollywood have a tendency to display females only for song and dance purposes or have projected stereotypes like sati-savitri bhabhi, sister roles or the brainless, hapless, directionless creature who has only two types of dialogues in films repeated umpteen times- “Bachao” and “I love you”. Television too has its share of contributing to stereotypes with all kinds of saas-bahu serials – they don’t even think in terms of letting women out of the kitchen! Even so, these films and serials are watched everywhere - not just in North India alone. So influence of films or television alone does not account for Delhi’s dubious status in terms of crime statistics.

I think a bigger factor is the political activities in Delhi. It has been a base for national-level (and often dirty) politics for so long and people have seen those connected with power get off the hook so often that this mentality – “Hamein koi haath nahin laga sakta – Nobody can touch me” has percolated down to the common man level and there is therefore a brazen contempt of law and its reach. Therefore people are not averse to indulging in anti-social behavior and women are fair game. Power politics has also frightened the middle class into submission so that very few venture to take collective action against the wrong-doers.

Raghz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 12 Aug 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Raghz » 29 Aug 2002 22:24

I do not understand why people harp upon bollywood for every single social problem. Name a single country in the world where Rape does not occur. In the UK 1 in 10 rapist gets convicted. Rape goes unreported most of the times. If banning films would be the solution, we would have never had the problem at all (Movies were not existing 100 years ago, rapes were hapenning.)

What we need is more education to women and make them understand their rights. Sex education, basic safety training in schools / colleges does help. Laws / courts which are more sensitive to these cases may be created. If we expedite the rape cases and give stringent punishment to the rapists, we will create deterrance. Rapists will exist, be it any country. Only when the society stops degrading rape victims will women come out and report rape cases. Only one women come out and report will government make better laws. Only when there are better laws will there be better punishment and detterence.

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby saint » 29 Aug 2002 22:34

Behind every man, there exists a woman. Perhaps that is harder nowadays since girl babies are getting butchered in the wombs of the evil-mothers, rather having to balance the equation in a society.

"approach" matters ====> EDUCATION.

Unfortunately [in india at large], bollywood "seems" to be the media for education. I guess, everyone saw that note of language text conversions for subtitles helps bollywood and India attain better literacy rate. Wonder, why should not bollywood be the culprit as well as the educator [praise them too]

S Bajwa
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 11 Jan 1999 12:31
Location: pittsburgh,pa, usa
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby S Bajwa » 30 Aug 2002 00:25

I do not understand why people harp upon bollywood for every single social problem.
1940s... Indian movie Heroes were mature and quiet. wouldn't say a second word if woman says NO.

1980s.. Indian movie Heroes would bug the hell out of heroine (jeetendra, amitabh, etc) and at end of song or many of the Male chauvinist activities (flirting, beating up hooligans, double meaning dialogues,etc) heroine would fall in love.

1990s.. Now we have movies where almost all taboos have been broken.

Who is the role model for average Indian male?
A. Amitabh, Govinda, Salman

So.. now you tell me in between 1940 - 1980s the Indian society was not influenced by the dorkies in bollywood?

The dorkies like Manmohan Desai, Raj Kapur, Anand brothers, Deols, Khannas, Gulzar, Shabana, etc... are responsible if not in full but at least partly in shaping the psyche of nation's youth that indulges in "eve teasing" and "corruption" and has lost the desi values of "Ethics","morality", "character" and "dignity" that were so cherished by our forefathers.

What we need is more education to women and make them understand their rights. Sex education, basic safety training in schools / colleges does help. Laws / courts which are more sensitive to these cases may be created.
We have a fragmented society where each individual does not bother to look beyond his nose. (again ethics trouble).
Sex Education will not help., rather I like the old ways where a person who is found eve teasing is

1. First beaten by shoes.
2. His Face is blackened.
3. Taken around the whole city on the back of donkey while children dance and make his fun. Gets instant recognition in whole city.
4. Handed over to police., with thousand testimonies.

Aditi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 7
Joined: 09 Apr 2001 11:31
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi » 02 Sep 2002 17:26

Influence of films on general attitude towards women can not be undermined. In recent films there is a distinct glorification of eve teasing,and 'punishing' women for 'errant' behaviour. Subconciously it is 'hip' to eve tease, because the filmy heros indulge in eve teasing.. the more physical the teasing, the better. Life imitates art.

Right now, the cop's son, the MLA's nephew, MP's brother- in- law feed on immunity from action.Crime against women do not have any convicts, in the end, thats the hard truth.Exemplary action, in one or two test cases could set right examples....yes it is wishful thinking, may be...some day...

Nevertheless, it takes both hands to clap, therefore it is also a question of attitude, how women view themselves. A woman is a 'human being' first, and then a 'woman'. If women themselves recognise this, half the battle is won. Indian women MPs are clamouring for Women Reservation Bill... unsuccessfully so far, mercifully. I have a general problem with assertive action of 'reservation'. I have always wondered, what kind of battle for equality is it ? What will be gained for changing the status of women in India by having more Rabri devi clones throgh reservation by way of elected representatives in Parliament? Or for that matter, more Shabana Azmis or Renuka Chowdhuries in Parliament? Enactment of women oriented legislation have not done much for changing the attitude of men , having more women legislators through reservation could hardly help.

Just some stray thoughts as I read the posts.

Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Sep 2002 20:46

Even if 100% seats in Parliament/Assemblies etc are reserved for women, the situation of bottom 99.9% women will NOT improve even by 0.1% (Aside, IMO, 100% MPs/MLAs *are* women.)

Hence, gender-based reservation is a outrightly hopeless concept.

Bollywood-bashing --- I disagree with bollywood-bashing. The bollywood's lafadaa-movies and lafadaa-scenes (like hero chasing heroines) etc CERTAINLY do have impact on minds. But that DOES not make them commit any crimes by itself. Most crimes against women are pre-planned or from habitual-offenders. The criminal-minded persons commit crimes in most cases ONLY after they are assued that they are unlikely to face punishments after they act irresponsibly towards women or commit crimes.

So I request the folks to spare bollywood and bash the reasons/factors becuase of which effective conviction in crimes against women is so low.

-Rahul Mehta

saint
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby saint » 02 Sep 2002 22:00

for the displeasure of sbajwa:

http://rediff.com/news/2002/sep/02spec.htm

Delhi: 'Lacking a culture that respects women'
Between January and July 2002, the Crime Against Women Cell of the Delhi police registered 75 cases of dowry death, 229 cases of rape, 243 cases of molestation, 306 cases of eve teasing, and 570 cases of kidnapping of women. The figures raise the question: is Delhi safe for women?


Raghz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 12 Aug 2002 11:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Raghz » 02 Sep 2002 22:47

Originally posted by sbajwa:

1. First beaten by shoes.
2. His Face is blackened.
3. Taken around the whole city on the back of donkey while children dance and make his fun. Gets instant recognition in whole city.
4. Handed over to police., with thousand testimonies.
Good. Atleast your suggestion does not suggest to ban TV, Video, Internet, Movies et al. Punishment is diterrance, but not the complete solution. The society should be more open to accept womens problems and atleast start treating them as victims and not criminals. Almost every indian movies ends with Good winning over Evil. After every rape, there is revenge by the hero or say public.

Wasn't rape occuring before the advent of movies. Is it a new phenomenon. Please do not tell me that the number of cases have increased. The number of cases has increased in the developed world as well. It has got more to do with the number of women coming out in the open and seeking justice than just suffering. Movies do have impact on our minds yes, but not to the extent that a person sees a graphic eve teasing scene or a rape scene and want to emulate it.

Our forefathers no doubt enjoyed a much more "moral" society. But were we hearing any rapes within marriage at that time. Moral society is one thing and hypocrisy is quite another. Blessed is that society where women will come out and seek justice for rapes within marriage as well.

H Vyas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 17
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby H Vyas » 02 Sep 2002 22:53

I don't tend to buy the argument that bollywood or TV is to be blamed for the ills that it shows the society, for the dirty role models it has to offer. Granted that in India, since other more formal education is not prevalant, people tend to learn by watching, and the stupidity and apeing of the west is all that is on offer, so that is what they learn. Excuse me, I shouldn't even say 'apeing of the west,' for Bollywood never shows the stong woman, they only manage to show the hero smoking and flirting openly...not the jail that awaits those who practice sexual harrassment in the U.S.

But then, society is partly to blame for this stupidity. On the '15th aug. parade' thread, i wrote down that the bollywood and cricket icons should be shunned from atleast the festivities in America, for we should hold them to a higher standard. If they can wear dresses and talk like a Julia Roberts and a Van Damm, then they can also be better role models and pay their taxes, lead charity works, stop paying the underworld, etc... To that, someone said that the organizers clearly stated "we bring the bollywood celebs 'cuz then we know you will come"

If there is no market for such tamasha, then perhaps Bollywood would start producing films that are more relevant to Indians at large....Bollywood shouldn't just be a dream factory, an escape route for the wretched. But the society should be the one to demand that.

What else can be done to change the peoples' mindset on this subject? I agree with many people who have already given reasons for the general apathy: nobody will get punished; why should i meddle in this issue and come under some personal danger; etc...But surely something can be done about this.

Aditi Parikh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 03 Sep 2002 00:49

India Today's September 9 Issue Cover Story - Rape

Five rapes rocked Delhi and Mumbai in the past month.
Most dangerous: Delhi, 266 rape cases in 2002.
Also unsafe: Chennai, maximum crimes against women.
Becoming insecure: Mumbai, 127 rapes in the past year.
Other unsafe cities: Bhopal and Hyderabad.


Dehradun, August 24: Raj Kumar Sharma, an additional commissioner of police, rapes his caretaker's wife Babita, 27. Sharma had sent the victim's husband out on an errand before assaulting her.

Delhi, August 19: A 32-year old woman is dragged into a car by four men who gangrape her and then dump her at an isolated spot. A day later, a female student is forced into another car and gangraped.

Mumbai, August 15: A drunken Salim Khan rapes a 12-year-old mentally challenged girl on
a suburban train between Churchgate and Borivili while seven passengers in the compartment watch.

Delhi, July 29: Four men drag a woman into their car and drive away. They use the victim's mobile phone to summon a Qualis—with tinted glasses and more room—and then gangrape her.


The litany is relentless and gets more frightening by the day. A suburban train rape in what is considered the safest city in the country for women. A senior police official committing a crime he is sworn to prevent, groups of youth driving around the capital, their repressed libidos finding brutal release in helpless women on their way home from work or in a college campus. The mean streets of urban India are getting meaner, while young women are stalked by fear-and depraved men.

The tragedy lurks not so much in the crimes but among the perpetrators. Last week, a news channel and a national newspaper sent women reporters on the streets of Delhi with hidden cameras. In broad daylight, men driving past stopped at regular intervals, making overtly sexual comments, gestures and invitations. The appalling aspect: they were mostly middle-aged, middle-class men going home to their wives and families, people we interact with every day, shopkeepers, junior executives, small-time businessmen. It is a shocking indictment of the urban Indian male. National crime records reflect the social degeneration. Almost 75 per cent of rapists are married men who have sex regularly at home.

The statistics are equally grim across the country's urban centres: sexual crimes against women are on the rise. The irony is even more tragic. The new-found freedom of Indian women, which gives them social and financial autonomy, may actually be the sum of their worst fears. India's overcrowded metros are straining at the seams but there's always a welcome mat for desperation and depravity. It comes as no surprise that a recent survey by Team C-Voter, a private research group in Delhi, found that 86 per cent of women don't feel safe in the city. Almost one-third of those polled knew at least one rape victim and three out of every 10 rapists are either friends or relatives of victims. And here's the most damning statistic of all. According to a study done by the World Health Organisation, every 54 minutes a woman is raped in India. Another by the Centre for Development of Women's Studies (CDWS) gives even more disturbing statistics. It says 42 women are raped every day in India, one every 35 minutes!

That would be alarming enough were it not for the fact that a large number of cases involving sexual molestation go unreported. A field study conducted in 2000 by the Chandigarh-based think tank, Institute of Development and Communication (IDC), on atrocities against women found that for every reported rape case, as many as 68 rapes went unreported, while for every fir filed on molestation 374 remained unreported. "The assertion of female identity is still viewed through a Stone Age prism and misconstrued as an expression of sexuality," says IDC Director Pramod Kumar.

There lies the rub. As many as 52 per cent of the respondents in the IDC survey squarely blamed the victims for inviting the rape/molestation by their " improper" dressing, conduct and mobility. Similarly, 54 per cent attributed rape to the influence of alcohol rather than deviant male behaviour. More outrageous is the statement of Delhi Police Commissioner R.S. Gupta. "Crime against women will drop by 50 per cent if they are careful in the way they dress, if they know their limits and if they do not exercise unsafe behaviour," Gupta said.

Coming from a man who heads the police force in the capital, it bespeaks an insensitive attitude. Yet, it reflects the urban male psyche. Sociologists and psychologists attribute this to the fact that India has for centuries been a patriarchal, male-dominated society. Lust in males who live in crowded homes and have little opportunity to interact with women, combined with the innate urge for an expression of power and domination, is a deadly cocktail being brewed in millions of houses across the country. In India, that finds an outlet in the ultimate act of male domination-sexual assault.

The rise in the number of rape cases is a reminder that any change in India's urban milieu is largely superficial. People may wear fancy clothes, drive sleek cars, live in snazzy homes and have well-paid jobs but the same intellectually limiting cultural fixtures remain wired into their behaviour. Today's male may come in better packages as a father, lover, husband or boyfriend, but inside he is still an uncouth voyeur who, for the sake of blind lust or power games, will violate the fundamental rights of the other sex and subject them to a lifetime of humiliation. Contemporary women who frequent pubs, clubs and salons or social service institutions to empower themselves and the rest of the society, are still battling to breathe freely in a masculine universe.

The deluge of studies and statistics on crime against women in India is sickening. Delhi rules as the crime capital of the country, with Chennai following close on its heels. According to the National Crime Reports Bureau, the number of rape cases in India increased from 15,468 in 1999 to 16,496 in 2000, a jump of 6.6 per cent. The National Commission for Women (NCW) says it receives complaints of sexual crimes against women every day. Between April 2001 and March 2002, it received 741 complaints from Delhi and 1,748 from Uttar Pradesh, another state with a dubious record. Rape isn't the only serious sexual crime against women. Sexual harassment at the workplace, marital rape, eve teasing, outrage of modesty by touching, pinching or pulling at clothes and attempt to rape are some of the other crimes that women are commonly subjected to.

The figures expose the ugly underbelly of Indian urban society. The psyche of the modern man resembles that of his prehistorical counterpart who realised that his sexual perversions could serve as a weapon to generate fear and exercise control over women. Dr Suruchi Pant, consultant, Institute of Social Defence, who did a thesis titled "Understanding Rape", says that rape is always more than just rape. "It is a symbol that this society allows victims but not survivors." She adds that the blame of the crime is pinned on the victim and the attitude of men, women, parents and neighbours to rape victims left her numb. Says Delhi-based criminal lawyer Meenakshi Lekhi: "Sadly, we are still in a medieval society where liberty means availability."

This confusion is a serious one. Freedom in exercising choice in clothes, relationships and social habits of women are viewed as "asking for it". Sample these comments: "So what else does she expect if she dresses like that?" "If she is so bothered about her dignity, why doesn't she sit at home?" "If women decide to go to pubs and return late, they will naturally be in trouble." Women say they experience disgusting disbelief when men, instead of confronting powerful cultural changes they witness in women, are propelled to "punish them for it". Punish women for what? For having their own cars, for taking their own decisions, for earning for themselves or choosing to move out of control orbits that men have drawn for them? Or for wearing backless or spaghetti tops?

What is scary is that women don't know whom to trust. Studies reveal that men who befriend them and become their confidants often turn into rapists. The Delhi date rape case in July is the most recent manifestation. How to recognise a rapist is a question that women are asking themselves with increasing anxiety. Oddly enough, rapists elude definition or a clear personality profile. In broad terms, they may be men who thrive on the thrill of abuse. On screams of frantic, terrorised women. Men who have an urge to teach women a lesson by "manly behaviour".

In one of the most unusual studies, Dr Stanley L. Brodsky of the University of Alabama, US, showed convicted rapists videotapes of nine different forms of resistance, all reconstructed from case histories. The highly aggressive rapists said they were sexually excited by resistance and may have been dissuaded by passivity, crying and other signs of weakness. But an equal number said that the "weakness" of the victims also increased their sexual excitement.

In India, however, a rape victim's real weakness is forced on her again and again. It begins with the humiliation at the hands of a rapist, then the embarrassing and shameful journey that her parents, family, neighbourhood, police and finally the law subject her to. Her contribution to the crime is repeatedly suggested. As Ritikaa Khunnah, project coordinator at Sakshi, a violence intervention centre for women in Delhi, says, "It does not end with the dastardly act. The victim is raped every time she has to relive it." Secondary victimisation, the term used for post-rape trauma, often ends up coagulating the effect of the initial crime. "Numbness, denial, hatred and self-doubt, disinterest in relationships, general mistrust of men and sometimes complete withdrawal from life resulting in serious depression are only some of the effects that rape victims suffer," says Dr Neena Bohra, head of psychiatry at Delhi's Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital.

Even men and women who are far removed from such sexual violence but remain silent on such issues shoulder some of the blame. In both Mumbai rape cases, especially the one in the train, a group of people watched in silence while the drunken man raped the girl. Javed Ahmed, joint police commissioner, law and order, Mumbai, says, "The city has been forced into deep introspection. Unless there is active public participation, any effort on the part of the police is incomplete." Brinda Karat, president of the All India Democratic Women's Association (AIDWA), adds. "The greatest matter of concern is the eroding role of citizens. Silence has to be recognised as an abetment to crime," she says.

What also cripples the process of the rape victim's chances of surviving the trauma is the sniggering, lascivious attitude of the police. The protectors of law inadvertently rape the law when they put a rape victim to shame by their judgmental appraisal of her "character" while lodging the fir. "The women constables are the worst offenders. They discourage victims from filing complaints," says Asha Latha, secretary of AIDWA's Delhi unit. In fact, some male police officials have worked doggedly to see that rapists are convicted. But they are so few that the pervading image is that of an insensitive, sexist policeman.

Nothing illustrates this more than Delhi's Police Commissioner Gupta's statement. Going by his argument, demure, docile women in saris or burqas who know their "limits" (whatever that means) will bring about a dramatic drop in the number of rape cases, something that even the police, the judiciary and social forces haven't been able to achieve. Gupta admits that the police may have been insensitive in some cases but argues that it is only a part of today's urban Indian society that celebrates skimpily clad women in its newspapers and where rape is sensationalised by the media. "Imparting lessons in gender sensitivity is an every day task in all our police stations, not an incidental attempt," he says.

THE LAW on rape

Section 375 of the Indian Penal Code defines rape as "sexual intercourse with a woman against her will, without her consent, by coercion, misrepresentation or fraud or at a time when she has been intoxicated or duped, or is of unsound mental health and in any case if she is under 16 years of age." Section 376 defines the punishment for rape. If rape is proved then punishment can be up to seven years of rigorous imprisonment for raping an adult and up to 10 years for raping a minor. Criminal Procedure Code amendments have made all rape trials compulsorily in-camera (where only those directly connected are allowed) and where it is obligatory to protect the identity of the victim. Many years ago, Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani had promised that rapists would be given the death sentence. But the proposal remains what it was: a promise.

Contd..

There are no clear solutions to what is a serious and growing social threat. There's no easy way to treat the Indian male's psyche when he perceives nothing wrong with his gender bias and macho attitude. When seven people can sit in a train compartment and watch a drunken lout rape a helpless 12-year-old girl and do nothing, the societal fault lines run too deep for band-aid solutions. More policing is hardly the answer: in case after case, it's the policemen who encourage rapists by their attitude. Segregating women in safe compartments, safe zones, safe clubs and bars is turning the solution on its head: they offer survival at the cost of freedom and choice and give the male even more of a superiority complex. The goal, say sociologists, should not only be to sensitise men but also to bring up boys to treat women as people instead of "objects". Some journeys defy the map. This seems to be one such journey.

member_4635
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4635 » 07 Sep 2002 11:43

Actually the current state of women in India should be blamed on laws that have been created and enforced poorly by the "secular" authorities. If laws were made regarding treatment of women based on dharmic scripture, no problem would exist, women would be treated with the highest of respect.

Ponniyin Selvan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 11
Joined: 22 Apr 2002 11:31
Location: Madna

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 07 Sep 2002 12:26

Originally posted by amit16:
Actually the current state of women in India should be blamed on laws that have been created and enforced poorly by the "secular" authorities. If laws were made regarding treatment of women based on dharmic scripture, no problem would exist, women would be treated with the highest of respect.
Riiiiiight

member_4635
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby member_4635 » 07 Sep 2002 13:37

Do you have something useful to say?

Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Sep 2002 13:52

Originally posted by amit16:

1. Actually the current state of women in India should be blamed on laws that have been

1a. created and
1b. enforced poorly by the "secular" authorities.

2. If laws were made regarding treatment of women based on dharmic scripture, no problem would exist, women would be treated with the highest of respect.
Disagree with all three statements - 1a, 1b and 2.

1a. Which specific law that has been passed by MLAs/MPs have been so wrong that it would result into such tragedies? As far as I see, Indians laws treat women equal to men on issue of violent crimes, and all issues except alimony, inheritance, divorce etc and these civil laws have nothing to do with crimes against women.

So instead of long discussion, can you just CITE the specific laws that you think are wrong?

1b. The implementing authorities in India re NOT MLAs/MPs/Ministers (secular leaders as you say) but the judges. It is the judges, who by issuing punishments on irresponsible babus/policemen decide if babus/policemen will "implement" the law or not. If judges punish/lazy corrupt babus, the babus would reduce corruption and become prompt, and the law will get implemented. So the laws are NOT being implemented in Indias judges DELIBERARELY do not punish the officers who do not implement the laws. Now judges are NOT "secular" (read leftist) by any means. So your statement that "it is becuase leftist that laws are not getting implemented" is thus wrong.

2. Can you spell out the text of the "dharmic" laws that would improve status of women? We will discuss from there.

-Rahul Mehta

Harry Van
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 14 Jun 2002 11:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Harry Van » 07 Sep 2002 14:54

Originally Posted By Pennathur :

-------------------------------------------

The practice is entirely Indian and should not happen in any circumstances.

You would never hear of such an incident in the South or the West or East of India. Why do we hear it only in certain parts of the North. The hold of tradition must be broken mercilessly.

------------------------------------------
It is not true that it is only an Indian tradition.Northern Scandinavian countries had women immolating themselves to escape christian missionaries who indulged in forcible conversion and to escape being taken as slaves.

Russian women used to burn/blacken their faces to avoid being taken as slaves by Chengiz Khan.Even today Russian women are accused of not knowing to dress properly covering themselves in layer and layers of cloth.

Ponder over the Italicized Words.

Tamils have nothing to do with India and her traditions and don't have any continuity or connection with the historical and cultural mind of India.It would be a very wise decision if they were freed from the Indian Union.

Harry Van
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 14 Jun 2002 11:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Harry Van » 07 Sep 2002 21:03

Imtiaz Ahmed:

Key finding that bolsters Rahul's claim: First, certain regions of South Asia, particularly a band running through Pakistan and northern India, consistently have among the worst indicators of gender disparity in the world.

It jsut proves what I said earlier.All "Evils OF Hindu Society" happen only in areas previously dominated by Islamic Rule.

Bhibhas:



a)So much so that I will say they contribute to 60% of the cases. Eve-teasing from young school boys and collage students are either directed to one particular girl for all the time or "just here and there" for temporary excitement. It is normally limited to verbal level. Compared to that matured office goers are much more organized (yes it is) and systematic.

b)Create enough job for the young people. Create enough park/pools/gardens and resturants and become a little bit open minded if you are a parent. A guy/girl with a job and future will definitely find out his/her partner of his liking (or vice versa). And after that he will be seen more with his/her partners on gardens and parks rather than loitering at the bus-stops under scortching sun of mid june.


By your own statistics you are eliminating only 40% of the problem.

Atish:

Sabhi andaaz-e-husn hamein pyaare hai
Hum magar saadgi ke maare hai.

When ever you post in Hindi especially loaded with lot of Urdu and Persian , provide translations.

"I like all styles of beauty , but..." COmplete it for me....

Harry Van
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 14 Jun 2002 11:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Harry Van » 07 Sep 2002 21:18

The Asians societies like that of India , Islamic countries , Japan have placed a great premium on sprituality and have therefore tried to evolve a social system that curbs sex urges and to put it in action have restricted women and have tried to control them.The logic of these societies is the higher spiritual ideal is so great that the trouble it causes to women must be put up with.It is explained of as the result of bad karmas.

These societies lay a great emphasis on honour and in the case of Japanese we have such things as Hara Kiri.

The Western socities are more humanitarian in nature and hold increasing comfort of life and good living as the highest goal.This too was developed only after christianity itself went thru several reformations....being a religion it also created restrictions for women...

So this is a cultural problem.

Ponniyin Selvan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 11
Joined: 22 Apr 2002 11:31
Location: Madna

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 07 Sep 2002 22:25

Originally posted by amit16:
Do you have something useful to say?
What I said is as useful as how stupid your statement is. I don't pick battles that are so trivial as being beneath me.

Ponniyin Selvan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 11
Joined: 22 Apr 2002 11:31
Location: Madna

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 07 Sep 2002 22:28

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:
The Asians societies like that of India , Islamic countries , Japan have placed a great premium on sprituality and have therefore tried to evolve a social system that curbs sex urges
Not always .. India is the land of the KamaSutra. Not to speak of Khajuraho.

kautilya
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 46
Joined: 11 Apr 2001 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby kautilya » 07 Sep 2002 23:53

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:
The Asians societies like that of India , Islamic countries , Japan have placed a great premium on sprituality and have therefore tried to evolve a social system that curbs sex urges
This is a statement which only highlights your ignorance about Indian history. The current "sexual culture" in India is a result of Islamic and more so of british Victorian attitudes. Even Al Beruni wrote that he found it weird that all men took the consul of there wives before anything important was done. Sexualy India was more open about things like homosexulity before the victorian attitudes were imposed on us, and so on.

And, as for talking about spirituality, unlike some other "groups" injunctions where you increase your spirituality bu "hiding women", Indian spirituality relied on you being able to direct the same emotions to a higher cause rather then suppressing them. And, even that only for people who were on the path of spirituality, for others the field was wide open.


Return to “History & Current Affairs Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest