Women's status in Indian society

Imtiaz Ahmed
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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 10 Jul 2002 02:21

The same woman can get beaten more than once. So it does not have to be 2.25 million women. Just as the statement "half of all marriages end in divorce" includes people that marry and divorce repeatedly.

Added Later: Spinster Garu "beat" me by 1 min :)

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kaushal » 10 Jul 2002 02:33

It was the Japanese PM ( a few years ago) who admitted to beating his wife (a good spanking every once in a while is good for them - paraphrasing his words). Obviously not very well received by the world and certainly not a good example for his country where the practice appears to be widespread perhaps even today.

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/Deadline/ViolenceAgainstWomen/articles/Kozu.htm

" According to this survey, 77% of the 796 respondents experienced at least one type of abuse, physical, emotional, or sexual, and more than half experienced all three. Fifty-nine percent experienced some type of physical abuse. Eighty-five percent of these women were slapped or punched, which were the most frequent forms of physical violence. Sexual abuse was experienced by 60% of the respondents, and 80% of these women experienced forced sex. Two-thirds of the respondents experienced emotional abuse, verbal abuse being the most frequently experienced."

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/740/context/archive

A survey by the local government in Osaka, found that two-thirds of women there reported abuse by their partners.

Another study by the national government showed that about one-third of the women murdered in Japan each year are killed by their husbands, a proportion similar to the rate in the United States. Last year in Japan, 1,096 murders and injuries related to domestic violence were reported in Japan--almost double the number reported the previous year, according to the National Police Agency.

Kaushal

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Narayan_L » 10 Jul 2002 03:12

Aditi, Gyta, Ponniyin Selvan:

Great, insightful posts.

Jarugn>>"I have been looking for data on India and I can say it is very hard to find."

Try the fire service department records or local crematorium records. Most of the cases involving "kerosene stove explosions" or "gas stove explosions" are actually murders. I know a researcher at the Univ. of Madras who studies these matters deeply. What he has to say about the status of women in our "modernizing India" makes for very depressing listening.

A stark but tragic example of misdirected fuel subsidies to our great, emerging, urban middle class - India's Great White Hope, which still places a premium on "superior caste", "wheat complexion", "tall and slim", "computer graduates", "H-1B holders",.... and not the person.

But, it appears that we are still better than Pak. - that gold standard for treating people right. :roll: They don't use subsidized gas or kerosene. They just grab the nearest AK rifle or the largest rock. Score: Bharat 1, Pak 0

This one made my day:

**post edited by**
shiv

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2002 05:54

Leave alone beating, I want to quote (from memory- so please excuse any errors if you have the book by you) some statistics from a book about women in India ('May you be the mother of a hundred sons' - by Elisabeth Bumiller).

Women produce 60% of the world's food but own only 4% of the land. Women are paid 10% of the salaries that men are paid. And in general a woman who is paid money is more likely to use the money for her family and children, while a man is far more prone to spending the money on himself - frequently on liquor.

These facts (quoted in the book from some UN study) are true for the whole world - not just India. Women really are treated like rubbish

And a little request - nayaran_L - I request you to stop taking potshots at others as you habitually do, And the person Narayanan is taking potshots at - please DO NOT RESPOND if you read the post. A response is exactly what Narayan_L wants, and that will help notch things up into what will become a flame war. Note that in this sort of situation lack of response can be construed as "victory" and a response construed as "admission of guilt". So not a chirp please.

If this does happen - at least some posting rights will go. I don't like to use this as a threat - but I see in the language used the very same undertones that I have seen in many other threads.

Debates CAN be conducted without using language designed to personally offend, couched in language of plausible deniability.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 10 Jul 2002 06:49

Originally posted by shiv:
Women produce 60% of the world's food but own only 4% of the land. Women are paid 10% of the salaries that men are paid.
The reason for this disparity is mainly becuase there are too many countries like India, Pak, China, South Asia, Africa etc and too few countries like US, Canada, Sweden, Germany, New Zealand, Austalia etc.

This may be world stat. But what is stat in say Sweden or Germany or Canada or US? What is the extent of income-disparity? What is the difference is ownership of say houses? I am over 100% sure that disparity is MUCH MUCH less than in India etc.

And in general a woman who is paid money is more likely to use the money for her family and children, while a man is far more prone to spending the money on himself - frequently on liquor.
I agree, which is why we should make a firm ONE-SIDED law that the child custody MUST go to the mother and not to the father. In less than 1 out 100 cases, perhaps father will make a better parent than mother. But allowing this possibility will force the courts to go thru each and very of the 100 disputes and will cuase 99% unnecessary expense to the society.

(Aside:
... while a man is far more prone to spending the money on himself - frequently on liquor.
I agree, which is why we should

the reason for higher expense on liquor ALSO becuase liquor is directly or indirectly over-taxed in all countries. If the liquor is taxed at par with soft-drink and fully delicensed, a man's expenditure on liquor will REDUCE and thus men will be able to spare MORE for their families.

Anyone who is serious about welfare of child and women in India in lower class individuals MUST seriously re-consider the ultra-high taxes and ultra-high profits of liquor maker, shop-owner etc. These high profits are becuase we still have licence-quota raaj in liquor business. If these taxes and profits come down to soft-drink level, the child/wife welfare will IMPROVE.)

About bashing Pak: There is NOTHING wrong in bashing Pak about women's issues etc. But that is NOT going to tell us how situation of Indian women can be improved i.e. how domestic/external violence can be reduced. So pak-bashing will be just an academic (=wasteful) exercise.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2002 08:35

Originally posted by Rahul Mehta:
I am over 100% sure that disparity is MUCH MUCH less than in India etc.

pak-bashing will be just an academic (=wasteful) exercise.

-Rahul Mehta
Rahul - You may personally "be sure" about a lot of things.

However, you may be wrong.

Kindly dig up some studies and quote to support your "more than 100 % sure". Rhetoric is great. Everyone agrees that Indian women are screwed in more ways than one. Much time is being spent on agreeing on this and asserting that "My knowledge of Indian women's suffering is greater than yours"

It have been extablished beyond reasonable doubt that all Indian women belong to the lowest of castes in India and get only the most contemptible of treatement.

So what next? What is to be achieved by asking people not to talk about other things other than mindless repetition? It that any more than an "academic exercise"?

For example - what are you personally doing about women's right? Perhaps we can learn something new. And If you care to ask, perhaps I too will look inwards and ask myself what am I doing and say it out in public over here.

I do accept your point about liquor as one that needs to be implemented if possible. How? What are the political/caste/economic forces that stop this "ideal" from being implemented? Anyone care to educate me?

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 10 Jul 2002 13:39

Originally posted by shiv:
For example - what are you personally doing about women's right? Perhaps we can learn something new. And If you care to ask, perhaps I too will look inwards and ask myself what am I doing and say it out in public over here.
I DO NOT believe in individual actions. IMO, goods buy money, money buys goods, but goods dont buy goods.

So IMO, a private-citizen has no moral right to assert over another citizen in any way. Only a govt officer can assert laws on a private citizens. A citizen MUST assert his demands ONLY before neta/babu NOT before a private citizens, get the demands legislated, and using the legislations and administrative procedures, make officers assert on other citizens.

Whatever needs to be done in society, should first be legislated and then procedurized in the administraion. Then only the the change will occur. Even if all 100 billion citizens agree on a idea/change, but unless and until they first legislate and procedurize the administration, the desired change wont occur.

So what am I doing for women's rights? Trying to spread the word that
1)TTT-type divorce laws should be enacted
2)Divorcees should get monthly pensions
3)child custody MUST stay with mother to make divorce easy
etc etc

in short, (aside from earning bread-butter), my day begins with legislative proposals and ends with administrative proposals. Charity/NGOism etc is not for me.

I do accept your point about liquor as one that needs to be implemented if possible.
Thanks

How? What are the political/caste/economic forces that stop this "ideal" from being implemented? Anyone care to educate me?
The liquor mafia, official or underground are the ONLY obstacles. They are DELIBERATELY keeping licence-quota raaj alive in liquor business. They ensure that neta-babu would never free the liquor business.

All we need is two-line law in Assemblies that

1. Government cannot impose ANY sales/excise tax on alcoholic drinks greater than non-alocoholic drinks, and the manufacturer of alcoholic drinks would need no permission from state as long as it uses ethanol and other permitted ingrediants".

2. Any shop which is over 100m away from school, hospital, place of worship , ______ , ______ and _______ can sell liquor to persons above 18 WITHOUT any licence.

This law will automatically lower the profits in lqiuor business, and will improve the economic well being of drunkards and their family members.

Say a drunkard in lower class earns say Rs 40 a day and spends Rs 30 a day in liquor. This is quite a typical scene. Then with abobe law and freeing up of liquor, Rs 30 liquor will cost only Rs 3 and even if the drunkard drinks thrice, he will be saving at least Rs 21 which he can spend on him and his family members. This will be a big step in welfare WITHOUT any contribution of govt, charity etc.

How do we get this law moving into Assembly? The ONLY way is to first enact a procedure by which citizens can DIRECTLY vote into Assembly.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi » 10 Jul 2002 15:50

A few years ago there was a media ad which went something like this: “You are right, a daughter will never be equal to a son ….unless you give her the opportunity to be so”…

The awareness building has to start right at the initial stages and formative years of education. The parents have the duty to consciously imbibe these values to their children, not only in words but also in spirit and action… like…thinking nothing of calling a son to help lay the table, even if there is a daughter around. Of course this is easier said than done in the prevailing value system. The change has to come in stages, it can not be radical. Even today the advertisements of the Insurance Companies talk of taking insurance for a son’s education, and a daughter’s marriage. Why not a daughter’s education?

In this situation, the teachers in schools have a significant role to play. They have to impart correct values in the children, and the text books have to get out of gender stereotypes in illustrations. As an example, in a hindi text book for class I, I have seen the following: “ Ma kya kar rahee hai?” “Ma rasoi(kitchen) me khana paka rahee hai”. “Pitaji kya kar rahe hai”? “Pitaji akhbar paDH rahe hai”. Per se there is nothing wrong in the sentences, and situations, but I just thought, if the mother was stated to be reading the newspaper instead of cooking, would that make any difference in the mind of the child? When the children exposed to ‘equal’ treatment grow up to adulthood, would not the status of women automatically improve?

Shri Rahul Mehta’s solutions to most problems are mostly un-implementable and the narrative gives an impression of high school essay. Sorry, Rahulji, there is no shortcut to education , societal change of attitude and economic empowerment. Doling out funds ( whose money, who distributes?) can never be a viable solution. Money has to be earned and/ or inherited , with dignity, for women to live in dignity and for the society to recognise such a status.

Muddur has expressed concern about “overkill” about ‘need for educating women’, as compared to the need for educating men. May I try to explain the rationale, as I understand it? The natural guide for a child of either sex in the formative years is the mother. If the mother is educated, she can impart the right values to her children, son and daughter. Socio-economic studies had thrown up statistically significant results to show that the educated mother has better control over her own life and that of her children. On economic empowerment also, similar studies carried out in rural and suburban areas have brought out that an economically empowered woman tends to spend more on the items required by the family as such, rather than on personal items of gratification, whereas any marginal increase in the income of a man is generally spent for personal items of gratification… booze, dress, eating out… entertainment…. A sharper focus on educating women and enabling their economical empowerment therefore would be in the interest of societal upliftment.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 10 Jul 2002 17:46

Originally posted by Aditi:
Shri Rahul Mehta’s solutions to most problems are mostly un-implementable and the narrative gives an impression of high school essay. Sorry, Rahulji, there is no shortcut to education , societal change of attitude and economic empowerment. Doling out funds ( whose money, who distributes?) can never be a viable solution. Money has to be earned and/ or inherited , with dignity, for women to live in dignity and for the society to recognise such a status.
Doles are unimplementable? Gujarat Govt ALREADY gives Rs 500/mo to every divorcee and Rs 500/mo to every widow. This proves that these methods *are* implementable even in India.

The cash doles or other forms of DIRECT payments are the BEST of all possible forms of subsidies. Other subsidies, like free education, free health care etc have too many points where funds leak out.

Originally posted by Aditi:
Sorry, Rahulji, there is no shortcut to education , societal change of attitude and economic empowerment.
The societies where women are better off (west etc) obtained betterment of women MUCH before univeral education came around. Even in 1800s, when most women in west were uneducated, there was no such thing as dowry deaths.

Nothing wrong with education but that is too slow and not-so-effective medicine compared to doles/employment. The doles will gives some courage to woman to walk out of a messy marriage and once she is out, she will find many unskilled/semi-skilled jobs around. The ONLY hard part is walking out, after that, there is a whole world out there.

Education as a solution to any problem is a 20 year muddat. If you "education is MUST" it is same as saying "see, for next 20-30 years, you have no option but to suffer". I dont like this idea.

-Rahul Mehta

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Nikhil Shah » 10 Jul 2002 18:07

Rahul:

I think it is nice that govt hands out money to divorced women, where is it getting the money from? Tomorrow if you divorce your wife and I end up paying for it, do I have a say in whether you should get divorced or not? This is a very tricky solution and needs an alternative. Otherwise India will turn into a welfare state.

Why do you want TTT style divorce in India for everybody?

Aditi: Agree 100%.

Education and Opportunity are the only two most sustainable solutions.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kedar » 10 Jul 2002 19:19

Rahul:

Your ideas are unimplementable and will further complicate the problem. For example.

a) TTT divorce. It has been observed the world over that when divorce laws get easy, a man is more likely to misuse them to walk away from his wife and family. You may talk about attaching his property and salary but any crooked attorney can easily help him hide his assets.

b) Liquor tax being removed. Do you know who would be the first group that would be protesting such a move of yours. The womens' groups. You nonchalantly state that if alcohol got cheaper then even if the guy drinks three times as much, it is okay and he will be saving the money. Have you considered that by liquor being cheaper, how many more people will be drinking and overall the national productivity will be decreasing. Plus if the liquor tax is gone, then the government has to raise tax elsewhere to balance the revenues. Even in western societies like the US, Canada (whom you want to emulate) alcohol and tobacco are highly taxed and are a major source of revenue to the government.

c) Monthly stipend to the woman. As Nikhil correctly asked whose money is it. Living on doles and welfare is okay in the short-run but in the long-run it does not help the cause of the woman. Have you observed the situation in the US on welfare.

i) It can be a big burden to the government and many states are now going for welfare reform.

ii) People who get addicted to welfare can remain on it for ages and won't go and find more productive work. For example there are cases of people moving states to get better welfare.

iii)The abuse of women is higher in the lower strata of the society and incidentally the women who are on welfare are more abused by their boyfriends/fiancees/close male.

iv) With the kind of corrupt society India is with poor accountability, can you imagine the fraud that will go on and how much will the exchequer be drained.

There is no short-cut to education and better economic opportunities. Rahul what you are suggesting is band-aid treatment for heamorrage.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Kedar » 10 Jul 2002 19:29

Muddur:

For emancipation or betterment of women, education of women is more effective and important than education of men. I am not against education of men and don't want it to stop but a bigger push has to be made to improve the education of women since female literacy and education levels still lag those of males. In fact, my observation has been that most of this anti-female bull**** goes on in middle class societies than the poorer societies. I have observed too many "educated" men treat their wives/sisters/daughters/daughter-in-laws like @#$% to think that educated men will have a greater respect for women in general. Indian male's ego is very big and fragile and only a nice danda will bust it. For female emancipation the following three steps are important starting with the most important.

a) Effective and forceful implementation of law and order especially against dowry deaths, female infanticide, etc.

b) Better economic opportunities for women. Will happen hand-in-hand with c).

c) Education for women.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby venkat_r » 10 Jul 2002 20:36

Boy! a party going on here.

I especially want to write to those people who say "we should not throw stones at other people's homes when we live in a glass house"

First of all Wake up!! Understand that in this world everyone lives in the Glass house. Couple of posts in the BR about a Rape in Pak is not anywhere equalent to Neighboring president going on to the TV to talk about the attrocities against the Indian minorities when their own backyard is rotting.

Secondly, what are you expecting, we all condemn the attrocities against women, esp the ones commited in Gujarat. But seems like in your opinion, because we have not put banners about that in BR or because we have not gone on Dharnas or because we do not have a thread dedicated to these things, so we are almost equal to these rapists and we do not have any right to condemn Paki rapes!!. If you are having any of the above impressions please inform yourself that you are in the wrong forum with a right agenda.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 10 Jul 2002 20:57

Beastly Tales

Two nations, two cultures, two religions, two differing situations, but the ideological underpinnings that render a woman guilty just for being a woman are remarkably similar.
Things will change only if three conditions are met. One, a criminal justice system that actively incorporates gender concerns in its functioning. This would mean political leaders and government officials publicly condemning such violence and responding with alacrity to evidence of such crime; it would mean training local officials, judges and police personnel on how to address such cases; it would mean monitoring crimes of this nature until justice is done in each case. Second, and most important, is to provide women with the confidence to fight such social abuses by ensuring their own literacy and by putting in place protection mechanisms which they can activate at the community level. The battle, finally, is precisely at the community level, it is here that attitudinal change needs to come about. Even to imagine that such a transformation would actually occur is difficult. But then, if it does not, it is an open acknowledgement that the overwhelming majority of citizens in this region live under the rule of barbaric custom rather than that of modern law.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 10 Jul 2002 22:35

Rahul said: I am over 100% sure that disparity is MUCH MUCH less than in India etc.
Shiv responded: Rahul - You may personally "be sure" about a lot of things.
However, you may be wrong Kindly dig up some studies and quote to support your "more than 100 % sure". Rhetoric is great. Everyone agrees that Indian women are screwed in more ways than one. Much time is being spent on agreeing on this and asserting that "My knowledge of Indian women's suffering is greater than yours"
Rahul is probably right. Please check

http://www.worldbank.org/research/projects/gender/gensa.htm

Key finding that bolsters Rahul's claim: First, certain regions of South Asia, particularly a band running through Pakistan and northern India, consistently have among the worst indicators of gender disparity in the world.

I find Rahul a valuable member of the forum. He can think out of the box and is original. He is also quite knowledgeable and is not thoughtless. He may not possess detailed in-depth knowledge on some topics when he airs his ideas, but I have not seen him worked up or being impolite when members respond (some of them impolitely).

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Jul 2002 10:42

Originally posted by Nikhil Shah:
I think it is nice that govt hands out money to divorced women, where is it getting the money from?
I explained it earlier, and later, I will start a NEW thread to show how market-rate royalty over coal, ores, crude-oil etc is sufficient to lower the poverty of ALL, be men or womnen, be divorced or non-divorced.

This is how it works. Consider a open-cast coal mine. Say price of coal AT THE MINE is Rs 10 per kg. Say cost of digging (labor, insuarnce, equipment EVERYTHING included) is Rs 2. Then GoI can easily get royalty of upto Rs 7 to Rs 7.50 per kg, if deals are negotiated properly. Today these royalty is sub-peanut due to collusions of all sorts.

Now why is the difference between price and cost so high in case of many natural resources like ores, coal, crude, marble,kota stone, granite, underground water etc. Becuase no country can allow all out digging of crude, coal, ores etc. If allowed, resources will vanish within a few days. eg if unlimted mining of underground water is allowed, water level will deplet to desert level as it is already happening in parts of India. So govt has no option but to impose a limit of amount of coal, crude, ore etc that can be mined. This creates a gap in cost and sale-price at the mine. This gap is what I call as royalty on crude, coal, marble etc etc.

Now, as per rumor I heard, Saudi Arabia, divides a certain portion of this royaltly on crude equally amongst all citizens (elders, widow, disabled get a little more than rest). In civilized countries like Norway, a chunk of this money is used for social secutity etc. In India, our elitemen simply pocket, without an iota of guilt, it as if it is whole country and its resources are their own feifdom.

So my suggestion goes as follows, and it is NOT a quickfix, and I havent worked out ALL details yet

1)Improve administrative procedures so that collection of royalty on coal, ores, crude, underground water etc improves

2)Divide this sum equally, with some more for elders, disabled etc.

This will NOT result into a penny of tax on non-poor. So no one is burden on anyone.

To make it clear, I am against imposing income/sales/excise or any tax for ANY welfare projects such elder-support, disabled-support, widow-support, divorcee-support, education, health care etc etc.

Why do you want TTT style divorce in India for everybody?
Nothing is more suffocating than a bad marriage. IMO, right to divorce is the fundamentalest right woman/man should have. Why should a judge decide if one can divorce his spouse? It causes tremendous cost/delay/agomy on party who wants divorce. And if judge has to review all details, then we will need 100s of judges per district just to resolve divorce/alimony/custody issues. Their salaries etc are too much burden on society.

Look at the family courts in India. Due to clumsy divorce laws, they are so clogged that many times it take 2-3 years to get a decree. Meanwhile he/she cant re-marry. This, by all means is INHUMAN.

Imagine a semi-bonded laborer, who can quit, but would need judge's decree to quit and law to become free are extremely cumbersome. Or imagine semi-bonded employer, who can fire an employee but would need judge's decree to fire the employee. The situation in many cases will become as bad as bonded-labor/employer.

Today what the three MOST important reasons why women hesitate in divorcing an atrocious husband?
1)economic -- who will feed me and my child if I walk out? where will I stay?
2)WORST -- fear of loosing child --- what if court gives child-custody to father
3)how to get divorce --- messy litigation details, which makes divorce trial expensive and so forth.

Solve partially or wholly above three and woman will be freer to break away from a bad marriage. TTT cant hurt a happy couple and can ONLY help a battered woman (or man). So I support TTT4all.

Aside, I request all BRites to visit a family court in any moderate sized city and see how crowded/disorganized/hellish they are, and you will realize the need of TTT.

Education and Opportunity are the only two most sustainable solutions.
Without TTT and woman-sided child custody laws, even educated woman will have to put with a wife-beater.

Kedar Bhandary says
a) TTT divorce. It has been observed the world over that when divorce laws get easy, a man is more likely to misuse them to walk away from his wife and family. You may talk about attaching his property and salary but any crooked attorney can easily help him hide his assets.
Once upon a time, divorce itself was illegal and it was believed that legalizing it would ruin the society. It took a time for everyone to realize that divorce will ONLY improve the situation of men as well as women. SIMPLIFYING divorce procedures will ONLY benefit everyone.

b) Liquor tax being removed. Do you know who would be the first group that would be protesting such a move of yours. The womens' groups.
When it comes to govt's role in improving woman's situation, we MUST a draw a line. If a wife says to society/govt that "my husbad is beating me, please arrest him, save me ..." it should be done. But if she says to society/govt "my husband is alcoholic; please change tax-policies or impose prohibition so he quits or reduces ..." such demand MUST be turned down. Protection, some support etc are the ONLY things society/govt should offer. Govt MUST NOT cater demands of converting husbands into "ideal husbands" or "what wives would like them to be."

If a woman doesnt like alcoholic husband, she can take her to rehab-center or whatever or just divorce him. But it MUST NOT BE govt's job to FORCE people to quit/reduce alcohol by prohinition or adjusting tax-rates.

Aside : Consider excess-tax on liquor, tobacco, tea, coffe, gutka etc. Now what is excess tax? say tax on pepsi, coke etc is 30%. say tax on beer is 200%. Then 170% is excess-tax on beer. similarly say tax on food-items in general is 10%. say tax on tea/coffee is 50%. Then 40% is excess-tax on tea. This excess-tax on liquor/tobacco/tea/coffee is unethical and also, it is a taxation on poor than rich. eg a poor making Rs 50/day drinks say 2 cups of tea and pays Rs 1/- per day as tea-tax. So tea-tax = 1/50= 2% of his income. A richman making Rs 500/day is NOT going to drink 20 cups a day. Say he drinks at most 4 cups and pays Rs 2 as tax which 2/500 = 0.4% at most of his income. Similarly, when computed as fraction of daily incomes, poor end up paying MORE %tax on liquor/tobacoo/coffee/tea etc. This WORSENS the situation of poor men, women, children, everyone. Today the excess-taxes on these items are the BIGGEST drains on the incomes of the poor.

also, these excess-taxes are UNETHICAL. neta/babu/judges/cops/soldiers etc have moral right to impose tax to fund their salaries. But why should they charge a bevada more than a non-bevada? why should a tobaccoo-chewer be made to pay more than non-tobacco chewer? This is simply unethical.

Simply put, by removing [b]excess taxes on some commodities[/b] (which consumed alomost equally by rich and poor on a per capita basis) such as liquor, tobacco, tea, coffee, spices, gutaka, cheap-cigerrates, bidi etc., we will enable poor to save LOT MORE money. This can ONLY help poor men, woman, children etc. Cant hurt them.

... Have you considered that by liquor being cheaper, how many more people will be drinking and overall the national productivity will be decreasing.
There is no evidence to show that increase in cost REDUCES consumption of items which are addictive like tea, coffee, liquor, drugs, tobaccoo etc. The tax on liquor DOES NOT reduce consumption of liquor, it ONLY drains out money from his pocket. If society is serious on reducing liquor consumption, it should try councilling, rehab etc.

As far as productivity goes, an employer is free to fire a bevada and hire a non-bevda. But employer cant ask govt to adjust laws so that his employee would reduce/quit. Catering such demands of employers is unethical. Govt's job is NOT to change life-style of people so that their productivity would increase. If so, I ask for a law that everyone should get up at 6.00am and take a 30 min walk. I demand a law cancelling after 9.30pm shows of movies (if people see a late show, their productivity in morning will be less). And so on. Life-style management MUST NEVER become govt agenda.

Plus if the liquor tax is gone, then the government has to raise tax elsewhere to balance the revenues. Even in western societies like the US, Canada (whom you want to emulate) alcohol and tobacco are highly taxed and are a major source of revenue to the government.
To balance the revenue gap, the govt may tax income, property whatever etc. But it doesnt make sense why a drunkard should pay more to govt than the rest. I do want to emulate west , but NOT every point. The excess tax *is* wrong and not worth emulating.

c) Monthly stipend to the woman. As Nikhil correctly asked whose money is it. Living on doles and welfare is okay in the short-run but in the long-run it does not help the cause of the woman. Have you observed the situation in the US on welfare.

i) It can be a big burden to the government and many states are now going for welfare reform.
welfare supported by taxation *is* a burden. welfare based on incomes of state-owned natural resources *is* not a burdend on anyone.

ii) People who get addicted to welfare can remain on it for ages and won't go and find more productive work. For example there are cases of people moving states to get better welfare.
Thats only when welfare amount is too large and too sufficient. The dole I suggesting is something JUST sufficient to rent a tiny room in a hostel and buy some basic food and NO MORE so that it is easy for a woman to walk out.

iii)The abuse of women is higher in the lower strata of the society and incidentally the women who are on welfare are more abused by their boyfriends/fiancees/close male.
Govt (=police/courts) can protect those and ONLY those women who are willing to walk out of an abusive company. If a woman/anyone clings on to an abusive husband/boyfriend/anyone, there is not much cops/judges/govt/soceity can do. Doles give an OPPURTUNITY to a woman to walk out. If she doesnt use this oppurtunity properly, policemen/judges cant help any further.

iv) With the kind of corrupt society India is with poor accountability, can you imagine the fraud that will go on and how much will the exchequer be drained.
Alternatives, like education, are MORE corruption/wastage prone than direct-payments.

eg over 99 out 100 NGOs/trusts engaged in the field of education are to evade taxes and siphon out govt grants. Out of every Rs 100 give to them by govt as grant or tax-relief, at least Rs 80 are siphoned out. Visit any low-fee school run by an NGO. You will find that most teachers are relatives the trust chairman. Result? In a typical low-fee NGO-run school, students of 5th standard cant show India on a world map, cant add (1/3 + 1/2) and solving (1/3 divided by 2/7) is out of the dreams.

All over the world, direct payments have proved to be the LEAST corruption/wastage prone.

So I am NOT against education, but I dont bank too much on this. First, education is MORE expensive than doles. Second even after education, if divorce/custody laws are messed by, a battered woman is still nowhere.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Jul 2002 14:59

Originally posted by Kedar Bhandary:
a) Effective and forceful implementation of law and order especially against dowry deaths, female infanticide, etc.
There is NO law-order (police/judge) solution to female infenticide/foeticide problem. Eighter the problem will disappear on its own (which is unlikely) or ONLY the following step will reduce female foeticide --- mother/father, who have LESS THAN 2 children, will get Rs X/mo for a girl child for whole life or till the girl child is alive. X can be Rs 100 or so.

Before you shoot at me consider 1) and 2) and 3)

1)as time passes, the sonography equipment becomes cheap and more and more available. So as time passes, there will be more and more sex-detection tests. Also, as time goes, abortion in general will become more acceptable, safe, cheap and common. So number of female foetice will increase.

2)Why there is no police/judge solution to aborting girl : sonography is TOO TOO useful and cant be banned. Now policemen/judges need proof to show that doctor who did abortion KNEW that feotus was female and the mother who was aborting child also KNEW that foetus was girl. Now all a woman has to do is --- dont do abortion in the same clinic where you did the test. Give fake name/addrss at the time of sex-detection and a different fake name/address at the time of abortion. The clinics destroy the foetus right after the abortion so policemen wont even find a body to prosecute. Thus policemen/judges cant do anything to hurt woman/husband/doctor. So there is NO policemen/judge (=law/order) solution to this problem.

3)whatever may be cost of Rs 100/mo to Rs 200/mo solution, it will be MUCH less than damage caused by 1000s of problems that will surafce when there are only 700 or less women per 1000 men.

Should society/nation be forced to pay the daughter-bearing parents? Lets take the hard cruel fact -- the Indian society/nation needs balanced female/male ratio more desperately than (Indian) parents care for a girl child. And so the society/nation will have to pay the parents to bear/raise girl. Even if it sounds outrageous ("what? should we pay people to bear/raise daughters?"), thats the only way out left.

And before someone says "EDUCATION": education is NOT going to make man or woman MORE caring about a female-fetus. The female foeticide is HIGH even amongst the educated women. Education in past 10 year *has* increase and the female fotecide too has increased.

And finally the The Best-Post-on-BR-Award goes to Imtiazbhai Ahmed

Imtiaz Ahmed says : Rahul is probably right. ... Key finding bolsters Rahul's claim ... I find Rahul a valuable member of the forum. He can think out of the box and is original. He is also quite knowledgeable and ...
Thanks :) .

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi » 11 Jul 2002 18:47

Originally posted by Rahul Mehta:
I explained it earlier, and later, I will start a NEW thread to show how market-rate royalty over coal, ores, crude-oil etc is sufficient to lower the poverty of ALL, be men or womnen, be divorced or non-divorced.

This is how it works. Consider a open-cast coal mine. Say price of coal AT THE MINE is Rs 10 per kg. Say cost of digging (labor, insuarnce, equipment EVERYTHING included) is Rs 2. Then GoI can easily get royalty of upto Rs 7 to Rs 7.50 per kg, if deals are negotiated properly. Today these royalty is sub-peanut due to collusions of all sorts.

Now why is the difference between price and cost so high in case of many natural resources like ores, coal, crude, marble,kota stone, granite, underground water etc. Becuase no country can allow all out digging of crude, coal, ores etc. If allowed, resources will vanish within a few days. eg if unlimted mining of underground water is allowed, water level will deplet to desert level as it is already happening in parts of India. So govt has no option but to impose a limit of amount of coal, crude, ore etc that can be mined. This creates a gap in cost and sale-price at the mine. [b]This gap is what I call as royalty
on crude, coal, marble etc etc.

Now, as per rumor I heard, Saudi Arabia, divides a certain portion of this royaltly on crude equally amongst all citizens (elders, widow, disabled get a little more than rest). In civilized countries like Norway, a chunk of this money is used for social secutity etc. In India, our elitemen simply pocket, without an iota of guilt, it as if it is whole country and its resources are their own feifdom.

So my suggestion goes as follows, and it is NOT a quickfix, and I havent worked out ALL details yet

1)Improve administrative procedures so that collection of royalty on coal, ores, crude, underground water etc improves

2)Divide this sum equally, with some more for elders, disabled etc.

This will NOT result into a penny of tax on non-poor. So no one is burden on anyone.
[/b]
This is only to clarify the constitutional and legal status of mining and royalty on minerals in India before Shri Mehta starts his new thread on “market rate of royalty” as the panacea for eradication of poverty. Once the thread starts this can be moved there. I thought of clarifying the concepts so that more meaningful discussion can take place at the appropriate thread, instead of discussion through the hat, not based on facts as they prevail.

Rahulji’s concept of ‘royalty’ is the difference between cost of mining a mineral and sale price of the mineral, which according to him, “ the elite class is pocketing”. What he has in mind is perhaps the profit from mining which is retained by the mining lease holder, which is however not the same thing as royalty. Royalty is a payment which a mining lease holder has to pay to the State Government for the mineral being mined. The rates of royalty are fixed either on basis on Rs X per tonne/ other unit mined( called the tonnage basis), or as a percentage of the sale price of the mineral(ad valorem basis).

Entry 54 of List-I of the Constitution gives powers to the Central Government for regulation of mines and mineral development to the extent to which such regulation and development under the control of the Union is declared by Parliament by law to be expedient in the public interest. The State Governments on the other hand have been given powers under Entry-23 of List-II for regulation of mines and mineral development subject to the provisions of List-I with respect to regulation and development under the control of the Union. Parliament enacted the Mines and Minerals(Development and Regulation) Act, 1957. Under this Act, the Central Government fixes the rates of royalty for all minerals and once fixed, these rates can be revised upwards not before three years.

The State Governments ( and not the Central Government) are the owners of minerals. The State Governments therefore collects the royalties at the rates fixed by the Central Government and retains them. In fact for mineral rich states, royalty from minerals is an important source of non-tax revenue. The revenue goes to the Consolidated Fund of the State Government concerned. As per Federal Policy therefore, the State Governments spend money from the consolidated Fund as per their priorities. In some countries, the revenue collected by the national Government is shared between national, provincial and local Governments and through them with the local community. In India, it is up to the States to devolve further funds in any manner they like.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Umrao » 11 Jul 2002 20:50

folks those of you who are fond of using Clichés (like me), The current thinking in the main street is to

"Think out of the Bun"
not the usual "Think out of the box". If it rings a bell its Thanks (to) Taco Bell!!

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Jul 2002 22:04

Originally posted by Aditi:
Rahulji’s concept of ‘royalty’ is the difference between cost of mining a mineral and sale price of the mineral, which according to him, “ the elite class is pocketing”. What he has in mind is perhaps the profit from mining which is retained by the mining lease holder, which is however not the same thing as royalty.
royalty + miner's profits = sale price at mine - cost of mining

Now due to collusion of mine-contractors and neta/babu/judges, the royalty shrinks to peanuts and miners' profits are super-high.

eg consider bauxite mines of Orissa, Jamnagar (Gujarat) etc. Due to nexuses of local mafia and some elite industrialists, very few people get oppurtnuity to apply for mine contracts/leases. Also, the leases are ALWAYS awadred in big plots and longer time so that small investors cannot get in. In addition, local mafias, powered by local neta/babu/judges will ensure that new-comers cannot function properly. In addition, there are 100s of micro-laws (you have to fill the land after digging, you must employ X% of local labors, you plant trees you have cut etc) which are NEVER obeyed anyway, but using these micro-laws, the babus harass a newcomer and force him out of the mining game.

Same is situation in lime stone mines in Porbandar areas, Granite mines in south India, marble/kota mines in Rajasthan and rest of the India. Mining in India has become a mafia-type oligopoly of private contractors, PSU-babus etc. The established families with support of neta/babu/judges have converted mines into their fiefdoms.

As a result, when mine-leases are auctioned, the royalty is low, and profits are high.

But *if*
1)we, the people of India, can lockup violent criminals

2)the process of lease allocation can be made more like a free market

*then* there will be too many MORE competent bidders for mine-plots. More bidders, more competition, higher the royalty that bidders would offer.

The key questions are

1)what admin/court procedures would lock up the violent criminals who have strong nexuses with neta/babu/judges

2)what admin/court procedures can improve "free-market-ness" in bidding for mine leases.

If we can find 1) and 2) royalty can be raised. QED for Part-I. Now Part-II : how can this increase in royalty remove poverty?

... Parliament enacted the Mines and Minerals(Development and Regulation) Act, 1957. Under this Act, the Central Government fixes the rates of royalty for all minerals and once fixed, these rates can be revised upwards not before three years. ...The State Governments (and not the Central Government) are the owners of minerals.
I think much of coal and ALL crude oil (and natural gas) are currently controlled by the center and not state.

The fuel is BEST royalty-generator. The fact that center has hogged up all coal and crude oil and natural gas has impoverished common Indians to stone ages.

We need following law in place
1)ALL resources, incl coal, crude etc become property the District, State and Military in ratio of 50:25:25
2)The DISTRICT will decide the royalty
3)50% of ALL royalty will go to DISTRICT, 25% to state, 25% to center STRICTLY for military purpose (NOT for neta/babu/judges salaries or their dream-ventures like schools, roads, hospitals etc).

... In fact for mineral rich states, royalty from minerals is an important source of non-tax revenue. The revenue goes to the Consolidated Fund of the State Government concerned.
Exactly. And here is where we need the change.

So you see, the money goes to Consolidated Funds or some account of State (or Center in case coal, petrol) i.e. in the hands of neta/babu/judges.

Why should this money go to neta/babu? Do neta/babu created the minerals? Did God create these minerals for neta/babus? IMO, No. The God created it for ALL, we the people.

So the money should DIRECTLY go to citizens' hands. Now how much money X, Y, Z and justin should get are the key questions. Well, AFAI can think, Jesus/God/Allah/etc loves us all EQUALLY. Or else, please give me proof to show that God loves some more than other. And so I CANNOT think of ANY reason why anyone should get more portion of royalty (i.e. God's Gift) than anyone else. (I believe in God 3 days/wk)

Now as you can see, this is NOT a tax on anyone.

Also, in this dole, there is nothing to be ashamed of. The God is The Daddy, and we, the people are the children, and the royalty-payment is the Pocket-Money or Monthly-Allowance given by The Daddy. Just keep it and spend it, there is no reason to feel guilty.

In India, it is up to the States to devolve further funds in any manner they like.
Thats theory. In reality, neta/babu just pocket it, or waste it away or spend it on their pet projects. The BEST way to utilize the royalty payments is to hand over this royalty DIRECTLY to the ownetrs i.e. the citizens. This may NOT eliminate 100% poverty, but REDUCE number of poor and will also reduce extent of poverty. Even if payment is as low as Rs 200 - Rs 300 per month, it can be a big help.

In addition, the land itself can be SUPER-HUGE source of rent/royalty.

(For details on land rent/royalty, please see the essay written by The Great Libertarian Thinker, Thomas Paine, titled "Agrarian Justice", which, IMO, is , a masterpiece in economics.

http://www.geolib.pair.com/essays/paine.tom/agjst.html

(Tommorow I will start a new thread on "Royalty of Minerals, Coals etc" and move this post there.)

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi » 12 Jul 2002 16:02

I think much of coal and ALL crude oil (and natural gas) are currently controlled by the center and not state.
All minerals, coal and mineral oil included, are the property of the State Government in whose jurisdiction (on land) these are found. In all cases of minerals in offshore areas (i.e in the continental shelf, Exclusive Economic Zone etc) however,the minerals belong to the Central Government. Therefore royalties are also payable accordingly. As for 'control'... coal was nationalised in 1973, which implies that coal mining is primarily done by PSUs... exceptions being captive mining of coal allowed for power etc to private sector. In oil sector, there is no such legal problem, as far as I know, although PSUs dominate.There is a price control mechanism (Administered Price Regime)in oil sector, which is being dismantled as per a declared time schedule.

PS. I will not hijack the thread any more, despite provocations :)

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby justin » 12 Jul 2002 21:55

One thing for sure , I am in awe with *Shri* Mehta's patience, though none of my post were meant to provoke him.

Aditi:
What you mentioned abt Delhi is quite right.
Delhi male sucks.

But what I am not able to understand is why they don't act collectivly.. say if somebody has been miss-behaved with why can't all the females just get together and just bash the guy/ goto his house and give nice one ?? I mean that kind of pressures will work wonder.

Talk abt Bhanwari case .. what has happened ultimately ? A Movie made -- money made by producers - a recognition for Nandita Das ..what beyond that ??? Why have junk personalities like Mohini Giri done except enjoy the fame/benefits of organisation they sit in ?
If lakhs can go to RJB , Lakhs can go for Dalit Rally, if Hundreds can go to India Gate for photo-ops for peace and security of freaking Pakistan , why cldn't 5-6 thousand females storm that village .. ??

I think FEMALE of India has failed herself ..knowing / accepting that the male haven't done anything ( which may not be exactlt right but for the arugement sake....)
What did Girja Vyas do there ???

Think how she got *mis-used* while these farts
of National Democratic Women Front etc had coffe/tea/bhasans at India Habitat Centre and IIC !!!

In nutshell if Indian Male is scum .. indian females in power are no good ...and common female who travels in Blue line still refuses too slap the irritant chap.

And Education has got nothing to do with it...belive me ..its cultural problem ...

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 12 Jul 2002 22:10

The security of the female is still the primary responsibility of the male. We cant expect the women to take arms/ slap offenders in buses. I am fairly sure in Delhi at least the janta would not come in support of the woman. The woman obviously does not want to get into any firther trouble. Moreover shock and humiliation tend to paralyze the senses.

The problem is very deep rooted. Our sense of honor is warped. We need a more free society for things to change.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby justin » 12 Jul 2002 22:34

Originally posted by Atish:
The security of the female is still the primary responsibility of the male.
Now Sir , I have found a Pathan from Pindi Bhattian ...in your statement ....

Female is not a cow/buffalo , that male needs
to take care of ...its a shame that we shld be saying that its male society's prime resp... I am talking abt equity in society
for either sex .... no need for a male to show magnanimity ..pls pls no statements on the lines of majority shld take care / look after minority stuff.. they in itslef reflect imbalance ..sorry I just don't agee.

We cant expect the women to take arms/ slap offenders in buses.
I am sure you have taken my stmt in ( don't know which ) some other manner.

What do you want a female to do then ? Goto
Police station ..man these ( its was an example ) buses are stuffed in like ..you got to see ..
Even Bombay local's are crowded ... misbehaviours are very very less there ...

I am fairly sure in Delhi at least the janta would not come in support of the woman.
They do come for help. But do you want to maintain that cycle ?? Tease-Help ?? Magnanimity huh...once this jhapad his sure thing ....... then I am more than sure that a
joker will think a 100 times before bringing into play is deperation ..


The woman obviously does not want to get into any firther trouble. Moreover shock and humiliation tend to paralyze the senses.

Kiran Bedi wld take you to pieces :) )

The problem is very deep rooted. Our sense of honor is warped. We need a more free society for things to change.
Don't talk abt free society ..less said the better :)

Can you imagine a guy in Valsad-Virar try any
smart acts .. man those Gujju woman will kill him ..atleast *VERBALLY*

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 12 Jul 2002 22:50

Originally posted by justin:
But what I am not able to understand is why they don't act collectivly.. say if somebody has been miss-behaved with why can't all the females just get together and just bash the guy/ goto his house and give nice one ?? I mean that kind of pressures will work wonder.
Thats the job of the policemen/judges. If is possible to resolve the disputes by "semi-violent", "mob-type" actions of the vitcims' groups, we should fire all policemen/judges and save us some uncessary expense.

Put non-sarcastically, it is NOT possible for victims to assemble in crowds and take action in over 99.99% cases. Why?

First the victims, be women or dalaits or whoever, are afraid. Say hundred of them go and the aggressor are few, say 5-10, but on one-on-one basis, an aggressor is more powerful. So the aggressor may EVENTUALLY loose, but some of the victims in the mob may get hurt very badly. And no one wants to take that risk.

Second, suppose 100 women/dalit etc were to attack their aggressors, it is possible that the policemen would prosecute them (the attackers). Now how will they justify their attacks. It might happen that the victims will land in bigger touble.

Third, in a mob action, some innocent too will get hurt along with guilty. eg if some women were to run down to a house of a habitual "romeo" and start beating him, it is likely that along with romeo, his familit members too may get beaten and their property too may get ransacked.

eg Phoolan Devi, instead to complaining before judge/policemen, just took guns and killed the aggresors, she also ended up killing a several innocents (like, as per rumor I hear, an 11-year old boy broke his spine in the shoot-out and is now suffering with paralysis).

In short, Vigilante Justice is too too unorganized and primitive way, and MUST BE used, but as a last resort, but it it is better to improve police/courts to solve such problems.

Talk abt Bhanwari case .. what has happened ultimately ? A Movie made -- money made by producers - ... like Mohini Giri done except enjoy the fame/benefits of organisation they sit in ?
The movie makers and neta/babu/judges/NGOs etc. are just looking for cash/fame etc etc. I dont expect much from them.

why cldn't 5-6 thousand females storm that village .. ??
Lets answer a simple question : why didnt the Indian courts punish the criminals, while in west such criminals get punished with better probability?

Women/men of west have NEVER resorted to mobs to reduce sexual-aggression (hasrassment, rape etc) problem. Without mob tactics, they have reduced the problem by improving courts/police. We should BLINDLY copy their ways and procedures instead of resorting to mobs.

Think how she got *mis-used* while these farts of National Democratic Women Front etc had coffe/tea/bhasans at India Habitat Centre and IIC !!!
Add intellectuals of Constitution Club in New Delhi in this list. They are the worst.

1. In nutshell if Indian Male is scum ..
2. indian females in power are no good ...
3. and common female who travels in Blue line still refuses too slap the irritant chap.
1. you are over-generalizing.
2. you are over-100% right
3. I am certainly in favor of weaponizing women. But without improving police/court, we wont get much far in solving EXTERNAL violence problem

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 12 Jul 2002 23:09

Problem is on many fronts. Actually rahul mehta is right there. A stronger rule of law is required.

I still maintain that women cannot be expected to defend themselves physically as a matter of course. At least not until we allow the right to own guns as a fundamental right. Its easy to say defend urself organize protest and all that crap. Ground realities are very diff for a lady who has to take the same route to work everyday.

Fact is society tolerates these scum. Public accepts it as tolerable behavior. i have seen this from my childhood growing up in Delhi.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Jodhka » 12 Jul 2002 23:21

I too grew up in New Delhi. And all that's been said about Delhi is correct.

To add to Rahul's post, eve-teasing is not just about making a comment on a pretty face, but also about the power the eve-teaser feels. So not only is resorting to mob-mentality harmful eventually, it is pretty certain that the eve-teaser teases only when he is in a stronger/escapable position, like with friends, or in a crowd. The rare case when he does get beaten, knowing Delhi mentality, he can probably return with a mob of his own, or have his dad call up the Police commissioner and turn tables.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 12 Jul 2002 23:55

I dont know what it is, but the whole attitude in Delhi is pretty sickening. I know its very bad in Calcutta too. Not sure bout other places.

I do know for a fact women are far safer and well respected in the US. I suspect our closed society may be at fault. I really dont know.

One fundamental prob is society still tends to blame the victim. Though it is obvious trhat however the victim dresses or behaves it is not a license to molest.
Unless people realize this (and I think it will take generations). Things will not change.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi Parikh » 13 Jul 2002 00:51

I agree that the situation is really bad in Delhi with respect to woman safety. The general apathy of the public is not limited to only watching women being eve-teased. In even more serious cases, such as a street accident where a person is bleeding, lying on the road – people just stand by and watch the tamasha (show) instead of lending a helping hand. I don’t know why this should be so.

Contrast this with Mumbai, which inspite of playing host to so many organized crime gangs, is a really safe city for women to travel in. Cases of misbehavior with women even on crowded local trains/buses are relatively rare.

I am assuming that by and large eve-teasing is a north India menace since I haven’t heard anybody from the south, west or east complain about it. If that is the case, I wonder what causes can be attributed to north Indian males for such behavior? What is it that contributes so much to public indifference on such issues? I have often heard women blame the "paan-chewing, illiterate or uneducated, UP or Bihari bhaiyyas" who have arrived in droves in Delhi in recent years. The image of the states they come from, their talk, certainly can’t stand up in their defence but there definitely have to be more factors than blaming it all on UP and Bihar. The other factor – “north Indian males are not taught to respect women” is a gross generalization and not true. Perhaps someone else can come up with explanations as to why eve-teasing is so prevalent in northern India as opposed to other parts of the country.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 13 Jul 2002 01:57

Aditi,

The apathy to the accident victims is totally unrelated to this issue. Even Delhiites are not inhuman. Thing is if u try to do anything the police will hound and harass you to death. It happened to my own dad. He took an injured guy to the hospital and the police accused him of hitting him himself (This was not in Delhi). Its like that all over the country. Almost the same thig happened to my uncle in Bangalore. They even threatened and bribed the victim to testify against my dad. All to get some money out of him (He didnt oblige). I got standing instructions from him never to be a good samaritan. And I personally would not help an accident victim in India.

Sorry if that sounds bad.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Bibhas » 13 Jul 2002 02:30

Atish

"I dont know what it is, but the whole attitude in Delhi is pretty sickening. I know its very bad in Calcutta too. Not sure bout other places."

I lived in Delhi for an year and my home city is Calcutta. Situation in calcutta is far far better than that of Delhi. In calcutta, eveteasing is omnipresent but at a fairly manageble level. Eve-teasing as a crime is often attached to young males by default. However, my personal observation (after living 30 years in calcutta) is bit different. Matured, and older crowd (normally 40+) indulge in eve-teasing and related crimes much more frequently (and strongly) than the younger crowed. So much so that I will say they contribute to 60% of the cases. Eve-teasing from young school boys and collage students are either directed to one particular girl for all the time or "just here and there" for temporary excitement. It is normally limited to verbal level. Compared to that matured office goers are much more organized (yes it is) and systematic. Most of the time they take it to physical level (mainly inside public transport system). People normally tolorate eve-teasing if the offender is young and the level is moderate. People go furious as the offenders age and level increases. I must also include that nearly 30-40% young girls too indulge in teasing boys (adam-teasing??) in various situations.

Alltogether, I must say that I have a different opinion about eve-teasers. Eve-teasing is a very normal psycho-sexual phenomenon for living being. There are definite medical reasons for that. Please refer any book on hormon and psycho-sexual behaviours. It is universal and displayed by many mamals apart from humans. The basic nature and formula is to get the attention of the opposite sex. As far as eve-teasing is concerned girls and women has always taken the "holier than thou" attitude which has further complicated the problem. Afterall, girls and women have not dropped out of the blue sky. They are definitely not celestial objects sent by God.

After listening to all these "tough laws", "tough cops", "danda" and "bandook(gun)" type recomendations from various posters, I am spellbound :confused: . Some posters have really over-estimated the power of law and police. It is a very limited force as far as human nature is concerned. And it is 100% ineffective when comes to sexual behaviour. The sooner we understand that, the better. There is just no need to jump on the eveteasers. Create enough job for the young people. Create enough park/pools/gardens and resturants and become a little bit open minded if you are a parent. A guy/girl with a job and future will definitely find out his/her partner of his liking (or vice versa). And after that he will be seen more with his/her partners on gardens and parks rather than loitering at the bus-stops under scortching sun of mid june.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Anoop » 13 Jul 2002 02:56

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aditi Parikh:
I am assuming that by and large eve-teasing is a north India menace since I haven’t heard anybody from the south, west or east complain about it. QUOTE]

Unfortunately, this menace is prevalent in the south too. I've noticed this in Madras during my school days. When I visited the city again after a gap of 5 years, the problem seemed to have become more widespread and blatant. I've seen it occur in crowded buses that ply routes along ome 'toughie' colleges. The culprits seemed to be college students and the victims, usually school students. So I guess it has less to do with economic and social background and more to do with opportunity, lack of fear of punishment and an adolescent desire to throw their weight around. Even in a crowd, the victim rarely gets any help. Hope things have improved by now.

Cheers
Anoop

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Atish » 13 Jul 2002 05:50

Here is a theory of mine.

The more a society accepts women wearing skimpy clothes the more woman emancipated it is. For skimpy clothes are not a license or invitation for harassment. In other words the responsibility for treating women well is on the guys rather than the victims. The most backward is Taliban Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia coz it covers the women up completely. It essentially implies that men can never control their actions.

No flames please on this. I personally prefer modestly dressed women.

Sabhi andaaz-e-husn hamein pyaare hai
Hum magar saadgi ke maare hai :)

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Sridhar » 13 Jul 2002 06:25

Atish:

I have lived in Delhi at various points of time for a total of almost 15 years. Am pretty much a Delhiite. I have also lived in all the other three metros - Bombay for five years, Madras for a year and Cal for 3 years - and have travelled to all parts of the country.

I have to say with regret that Delhi is the worst when it comes to respect for the rights of women. Eve teasing is at its worst in the city with only Madras coming anywhere close. Even Madras does not compare since it is largely a 'rowdy college' phenomenon in that city while in Delhi it is spread across a wider spectrum of society. Mumbai is perhaps the best and Calcutta is not bad either, relatively speaking. My experience has been that the same holds for accidents (though Mumbai has far fewer accidents, particularly serious ones), even though the harrassment by the police argument is the same everywhere.

Hard to say why this is the case. Perhaps the political culture of the capital has some role in this.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Rahul Mehta » 13 Jul 2002 07:29

We are mixing up too many issues

IMO, harassment (I dislike the word "eve teasing" as it sort of innoncetizes harassment) is HIGHER in societies which have hypocritical attidue about unmarried women-men company. In US etc there are bars etc where men/women freely mix with each other. While bars or such meeting places in most parts of India dont exist or are confined to super-rich. So frustration runs MUCH higher in men/women in India

Solution: Reduce taxes on resturants, bars; once that happens there will fewer people who would resort to harassment

Also, in India, most youngsters stay with parents and so cannot their company to their homes. This further worsens the problem. In US etc most of them stay alone or in company of 2-3 with a freind of same age, but not a family member. So it is possible to take a "friend" of opposite sex at your place.

solution: enocurage more and more studio type one room apt in India and enocurage youngsters to stay alone away from parents.

The serious harassment (physical) is ONLY becuase

1)The policemen/judges in India are so *%^&ed up that no one wants to be witness. eg. If I see X (or justin) harassing Y physically in US, I would be glad to be witness in the court. But if I see SAME incident in India, I would avoid becoming a witness. No witness, no case, no punishment --- criminal (aggressor) have a free run.

2)Forget witnessing, the policemen/judges in India are so %^&*ed up that even victims hesitate to file a complain before policemen/judges unless the harassment is too too severe. Once again, no complain, no case, no punishment --- aggresors have a free run.

solution : (please see thread titled "Corruption in Indian judges ...")

The reason why perhaps harassment is MORE in north than south/west is becuase police/courts in south/west are BETTER than those in north. Thats the ONLY reason crimes in general are less in west.

Unless policemen/courts improve, physical harassment is NOT going to reduce in near future.

And domestic violence cant be reducued MERELY by improving police/courts. The ONLY solution is to enable woman to easily get out of a sour marriage. How?
1. introduce TTT
2. introduce TTTT (TTTT = Tatkal TTTT = there should be 2-3 windows in courtroom a Magistrate on 24 hours, 365 day basis, and for a higher fee, he can get you divorce-decree within 72 hours.)
3. Guarnteed child-custody to woman.
4. eco-job support to divorcee
5. hostels for divorcees where they can get a one room studio for cheap etc etc

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 15 Jul 2002 13:16

Originally posted by Aditi Parikh:

I am assuming that by and large eve-teasing is a north India menace since I haven’t heard anybody from the south, west or east complain about it.
It's been some years since I've lived in Singara Chennai, so I'm not quite sure about the extent of eve-teasing in public transit. On the other hand, all seats on the left-side of the aisle are reserved for women, and woe-betide the man who dares to sit there when there are more women in the bus. In general, men aren't allowed to sit next to women (unless the woman permits it) in the "open category" seats.

Of course, there will always be the New College ppl and the Gill Adarsh kids fighting over "rights" to tease the Adarsh Vidyalay gals. Apologies to all alumni of said institutions.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby Aditi » 15 Jul 2002 17:05

A few comments on the above posts.

1.Of the metropolitan cities in India, I agree that Delhi is the most unsafe for women. Also, interestingly, the Indian States surrounding Delhi have recorded the lowest number of females per 1000 male as per the 2001 Census. Consider the following

All India no. of female per 1000 male : 933

Delhi (As Union Territory): 821 (lowest)
Haryana: 861
Punjab: 874
Uttar Pradesh 898

2. There are orientation courses organized by NGOs, UN bodies, Government Institutions etc on ‘gender sensitization’. Ironically, a random sample of the participants of such courses would reveal that mostly [B]women[\B] get nominated to attend these courses. This shows the seriousness with which the issue is generally viewed.

3. However, Rahulji’s TTTT had me totally zapped. Okay so the battered woman gets a tatkal divorce, does it mean she is better off than before? Why should she take the final step of divorce till the errant husband is made, through a court of law to pay for her/ children’s subsistence? I can on the other hand imagine the husband merrily using the TTTT double quick, to get rid of a wife/children he does not care for any more.

4. I had seen a very practical solution to the ‘uncaring’ husband syndrome. The battered wife approached the husband’s office stating that the husband did not give any money for subsistence of the family, and spent the amount in booze and womanizing. The employer got the credentials of the case investigated independently, and decided that the salary due to the husband would only be credited to the joint bank account of the husband and wife. The wife was not educated. There was no divorce, as the wife did not press for it, and the man had little choice in denying his family their legitimate support.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby GGanesh » 15 Jul 2002 18:49

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_17124,0008.htm

Dalit women raped, paraded naked in Jharkhand

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby S Bajwa » 15 Jul 2002 19:56

Eveteasing is definetely a cultural problem and a growing one at that.
Just look at the Hindi (bollywood movies) from Dev Anand to Govind have eve teased
in their movies all the way., attach that with

1. Frustrated youth due to no employment oppurtunity (unemployment).
2. "Show off" having replaced "simple living" values now means everyone must GRAB attention.
3. Erosion of values like self respect, dignity, honesty, integrity and CHARACTER.
and you got a case made...
BTW... in old Punjab every women was called "Mai" or "mother" or "buddhi" or "old woman"
so that they don't look her with lusty eyes.

I blame Raj kapoor to Amitabh Bachchan to Anil Kapoor on the erosion of our values.

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Re: Women's status in Indian society

Postby saint » 15 Jul 2002 20:41

*****
Speaking of Vaishno Devi, The Pioneer carried a horrifying story on July 9 about a newly-wedded woman forced to undergo an ordeal by fire for tripping off to the Himalayan shrine without informing her husband and in-laws. On her return, Sangeeta Sode was subjected to agnipariksha by having a red-hot iron bar -- heated for a precise 90 minutes -- placed on the palms of her hands to prove her fidelity. As per the ritual, Sangeeta walked five steps with the hot iron bar in her hands and then threw it on a heap of dry grass, which instantly caught fire.

Remember my saying -- about the Muslim women who were party to the passing of the AIMPLB's resolution rejecting the Child Marriage Restraint Act -- "Victims begging for their daughters to be victimised?" Well, Sangeeta was made to undergo agnipariksha not only by her mother-in-law, but also her own mother...

To top that, in an affidavit before a court in Indore, Sangeeta defended her in-laws against police action with: "If you want to prosecute them, you should prosecute me, as well as my mother, because we are directly involved in it." Not only that, she also endorsed the fire ritual on the basis of "traditions in our community," ie, the Kanjar Samaj.

Frankly, I wish Sangeeta and her mother had self-combusted, I detest victims that much. These are the women who perpetuate barbarity down the line: by teaching their sons to be chauvinistic and domineering, and daughters to be docile and all-suffering. The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world, and with a hand like Sangeeta's, the future sure looks dim.

Nevertheless, there is something that has totally stumped me: The report featured an Associated Press photograph of Sangeeta displaying the palms of her hands after holding the hot iron -- they were unscathed, without even a red mark. People who sear steaks and chops on the backyard barbie (which isn't preheated for one-and-a-half hours), know how quickly the iron grid scores the flesh, how the meat sizzles the moment it touches the iron. So... how... what...?

*****
Varsha Bhosle


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