Intelligence & National Security Discussion

shyamd
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 02 Feb 2013 07:07

So many factors to take into account. But to meet CMD they have to at some point. Everyone is watching us too. Pre-elections is my expectation. But it's gonna be interesting because of Obama's pledge to eliminate nuc's and they are negotiating with the Russians now again.

See latest PC decision and think about it

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Feb 2013 09:54

What PC decison?

The cut in RM budget?

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 02 Feb 2013 14:07

Cutting budget (by 8% - $20b)in election year 'to meet deficit' and upsetting rest of the cabinet. If you were smart, you would have probably cut budget last year and then let loose (spent more) this year in time for elections. One of the first orders ABV gave on nuc file was to prepare economy for sanctions.

But again I could be wrong. But all I know is they have to test at some point and they can't meet CMD unless they do. This topic is worth writing an essay because so many things need to be taken into account.

US needs a good global economy so can't rock the boat too much either.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 03 Feb 2013 16:43

shyamd wrote:Image
Image

EXCLUSIVE: Welcome to what could be India's newest listening post. On the northern eastern tip of Oman lies Ras Al Hadd. European intel services have been speculating the purpose of a listening post set up 2 years ago. Located on a rocky plataeu, the site is well protected by several police checkpoints. The European intel services also drew up a list of US listening posts in the country - and found that this facility wasn't on it. So, the europeans said if it ain't ours or it ain't the US's either then who's is it? The conclusion appears to be that this is likely to be an Indian post - India and Oman have had active security relations incl. the defence pact in 2008 and the facility is located directly opposite Pakistan. The building had been under construction since 2009 and has been operational since 2010.

India till date has had interception posts in North of Madagascar since 2007 and is planning to build others in the Maldives, Seychelles and Mauritius.

The US has had a monopoly in the region with a comprehensive set of listening posts in the region which has been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Oman - the NSA has facilties in Aboot, Masirah island and 2 posts in the Musandam peninsula. Further it has listening posts in Masira island, Bahrain, Sir Abu Nuair an island off Abu Dhabi, a 2nd faciltiy in Masirah island as well as Diego Garcia

What has china been upto in the region? China has been trailing behind on listening on the arabian sea and has been working on building permanent facilities.. It has deployed specialists to support the ISI and iranian intel services but these only have limited capacities to intercept. In an effort to boost its presence the PLA is working with Djibouti and Kenya - however this hasnt produced any results to date. In the meantime, China routinely despatches "oceanographic observation" vessels crammed with interception gear to the arabian sea. These ships frequently cross paths with the french naval intel ship - the Dupy de lome and spends much of its times in the same area..

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby svinayak » 04 Feb 2013 03:31

ramana wrote:



Isn't this a underwhelming objective?

India is the largest power in Indian Sub-continent And why use kafir formulations for Indian sub-continent?

Shows no need to read the article.

Until the Indian economy reaches 5T + and dominant in external trade non of these security framewor will work.
India will achive all the alliace only after strong trade relations with these neighbors

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 04 Feb 2013 19:20

Aditya G wrote:There is an ongoing debate as to the reason why J&K Insurgency has tapered off in recent years


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 327568.cms

Q: About violence coming down. Partly this is due to domestic management and partly due to external situations outside India's control. So can this calm prove illusionary?

A: I don't think the situation can alter dramatically. That will take monumental failures on the line of control. Our entire counter-insurgency grid will have to fail. Our fence will have to fail. There are those who are suggesting that the withdrawal of US forces in Afghanistan, there will be a spillover effect in Jammu and Kashmir. I am not convinced. I believe it is something we need to keep an eye on but I am not convinced you will see a massive spurt in infiltration and violence. A large part of the credit for less violence goes to the way in which security forces have harmonized operations.

The local population is fed up with insurgency, allowing us to generate pin-point intelligence for operations. The capacity of state police has increased, no operation takes place without the active support and participation of J&K police.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby sum » 04 Feb 2013 19:31

How Pakistan sends infiltrators through Indian borders

While the Intelligence Bureau and the military intelligence have proof of this modus operandi, the bigger worry continues to be the growing number of facilitators that have infiltrated the Kashmir [ Images ] valley.

According to a report by the IB, there are at least 70 persons working on the border areas who facilitate infiltrations into India. Not only do these persons help Lashkar operatives cross over into India, but also provide them with crucial logistics about the Indian Army.

These persons provide details about the movement of the Indian forces which not only helps the Lashkar, but also the Pakistan army [ Images ].

For the recent operation, the Lashkar had hired a person by the name Ismail Langda and he was paid a sum of Rs 5 lakh for the same, according to a source. An IB report states that these persons are locals and their job is to provide information about Indian security agencies.

They are hired on a salary of Rs 40,000 per month and bonuses are paid after successful completion of an operation.

They are first chosen by the headhunters of these terrorist groups and later sent to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan where they undergo training. For the first couple of months, they settle into the place and get themselves familiar with the areas and the operations of the Indian forces.

Their standing instructions include not using cell phones or emails to communicate. All the information passed on is through word of mouth for which they have a fixed set of agents, the report states.

The report further states that among the 70-odd persons hired for the job, there are some who gather information while others just help with the infiltration. However, for the Lashkar and the ISI, the more crucial role is played by the informers, based on which they decide on sending in their forces.

The report explains the manner in which these persons work; it states that the entire operation starts in Pakistan with the ISI directing the Lashkar to commence the infiltration process. There are camps in Pakistan which are frequented by the Lashkar and ISI operatives who then draw out the plan.

The decision to infiltrate is taken only once the informer provides all details regarding the situation and the movement of the Indian security forces.

Then there are porters to help these infiltrators carry arms and these persons are aided by the ISI guides who help a safe crossover. Prior to the crossover, a motivational speech is delivered by the head of the Lashkar, the intelligence report states.

The says that most of these persons who aide the Lashkar often act as double agents and even the military intelligence would suggest that a thorough check ought to be kept on the same.

“It becomes extremely difficult for the agencies to ascertain the credentials of each and every person, since most of them are Indian locals,” informs a source.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 04 Feb 2013 19:32

Well OA better toe that line if he wants AFSPA removed.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 04 Feb 2013 23:06

Must read:

@vkthakur: Unreliable sources may be taking intelligence agencies for a ride http://t.co/keKig9mn

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 09 Feb 2013 21:52

shyamd wrote:
shyamd wrote:Image
Image

EXCLUSIVE: Welcome to what could be India's newest listening post. On the northern eastern tip of Oman lies Ras Al Hadd. European intel services have been speculating the purpose of a listening post set up 2 years ago. Located on a rocky plataeu, the site is well protected by several police checkpoints. The European intel services also drew up a list of US listening posts in the country - and found that this facility wasn't on it. So, the europeans said if it ain't ours or it ain't the US's either then who's is it? The conclusion appears to be that this is likely to be an Indian post - India and Oman have had active security relations incl. the defence pact in 2008 and the facility is located directly opposite Pakistan. The building had been under construction since 2009 and has been operational since 2010.

India till date has had interception posts in North of Madagascar since 2007 and is planning to build others in the Maldives, Seychelles and Mauritius.

The US has had a monopoly in the region with a comprehensive set of listening posts in the region which has been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Oman - the NSA has facilties in Aboot, Masirah island and 2 posts in the Musandam peninsula. Further it has listening posts in Masira island, Bahrain, Sir Abu Nuair an island off Abu Dhabi, a 2nd faciltiy in Masirah island as well as Diego Garcia

What has china been upto in the region? China has been trailing behind on listening on the arabian sea and has been working on building permanent facilities.. It has deployed specialists to support the ISI and iranian intel services but these only have limited capacities to intercept. In an effort to boost its presence the PLA is working with Djibouti and Kenya - however this hasnt produced any results to date. In the meantime, China routinely despatches "oceanographic observation" vessels crammed with interception gear to the arabian sea. These ships frequently cross paths with the french naval intel ship - the Dupy de lome and spends much of its times in the same area..


Love this.. Clear Line of Sight to Gwadar.. :D :D :D

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 10 Feb 2013 19:41

O man a listening post in Oman.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Arav » 11 Feb 2013 14:10

Should IB, RAW be monitored Parliament and CAG, asks SC

The Supreme Court today issued notice to the Centre over a plea seeking to make intelligence agencies like the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Intelligence Bureau (IB) accountable to Parliament.

Hearing a petition, the apex court sought responses from the IB, RAW and National Technical Research Organisation to bring them under the oversight of Parliament and CAG

The court has given the Centre and intelligence agencies six weeks to file their response and asked the Attorney General to assist it in the matter.

Presently all three organisations operate independent of Parliamentary oversight and have budgets that are unaudited by the CAG.


NIA and CBI should also be made accountable.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Feb 2013 08:42

SC must be on hafim.

First start with CBI and that do nothing NIA.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 12 Feb 2013 09:14

Arav wrote:Should IB, RAW be monitored Parliament and CAG, asks SC

The Supreme Court today issued notice to the Centre over a plea seeking to make intelligence agencies like the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Intelligence Bureau (IB) accountable to Parliament.

Hearing a petition, the apex court sought responses from the IB, RAW and National Technical Research Organisation to bring them under the oversight of Parliament and CAG

The court has given the Centre and intelligence agencies six weeks to file their response and asked the Attorney General to assist it in the matter.

Presently all three organisations operate independent of Parliamentary oversight and have budgets that are unaudited by the CAG.


NIA and CBI should also be made accountable.

I am getting a feeling that SC has put up a secret plan into motion to bring all the few independent departments out there to be under the ambit of parliament except itself. :lol:
Na CBI na good for nothing NIA direct RAW.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Sridhar » 12 Feb 2013 09:17

I may be mistaken, but I thought CBI and NIA are already under parliamentary oversight. In any case, this will have to be an executive decision. The SC has just sent the Government a notice asking what it's response is. It is unlikely to come to anything unless the Government itself wants it.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 12 Feb 2013 09:24

Sridhar wrote:I may be mistaken, but I thought CBI and NIA are already under parliamentary oversight. In any case, this will have to be an executive decision. The SC has just sent the Government a notice asking what it's response is. It is unlikely to come to anything unless the Government itself wants it.

They are under the direct control of GoI and not parliament oversight I suppose. :-?

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby svinayak » 12 Feb 2013 11:19

SagarAg wrote:They are under the direct control of GoI and not parliament oversight I suppose. :-?


GOI is under the control of an elected govt which is answerable to Parliament. What is th problem. :roll:

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 12 Feb 2013 11:29

Acharya wrote:
SagarAg wrote:They are under the direct control of GoI and not parliament oversight I suppose. :-?


GOI is under the control of an elected govt which is answerable to Parliament. What is th problem. :roll:

Saar GoI is answerable to parliament not the departments. Think of these departments as a part of GoI which reports to it but GoI is not obligated to report those reports/findings in parliament. :wink: I hope you didn't got more konfused. :lol:

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby svinayak » 12 Feb 2013 11:45

The elected govt will report the findings to the Parliament according the procedures which are defined

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 12 Feb 2013 12:02

Acharya wrote:The elected govt will report the findings to the Parliament according the procedures which are defined

Saar the Govt report the findings to judicial courts and not in parliament.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby svinayak » 12 Feb 2013 12:44

To Both

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Sridhar » 12 Feb 2013 12:48

All departments of GOI are subject to Parliament scrutiny. And no department directly reports to Parliament and even in the PIL, that is not what is asked for. The issue at hand is that the functioning of the IB and RAW are unique in that they are not subject to Parliament questions, their budgets are not subjected to the demand for grants process that every other department and arm of Government is subject to, their finances are not scrutinized by the Public Accounts Committee and they are not subject to CAG scrutiny. There is no standing committee of Parliament that can call for documents (even non-classified ones) or call any officer of these agencies to testify, and no committee that submits even advisory repots. Much of this is due to the IB legacy from before independence, when it was formed as a secret police organization serving a colonial master. It was never altered after independence (partly because politicians wanted to continue to use it as a secret police rather than an intelligence agency per se) and RAW inherited IB procedures when it was formed.

In this, these agencies are unique across the major democracies of the world. Intelligence agencies require some degree of secrecy, and there are processes in other countries to have scrutiny/accountability along with secrecy, but there is virtually no scrutiny of IB/RAW by public representatives. Other democracies don't have secret police organizations, we are the ony one that does and IB in particular is regularly misused by the Government of the day, for purposes that have nothing to do with national security. The demand for some form of scrutiny is not therefore an outlandish demand. The problem is the extremely low levels of trust in MPs to keep the secrecy part of the bargain. That said, the demand for scrutiny has come even from former senior IB/RAW officers due to the many cases of abuse that regularly occur, both by officers of the agencies and the politicians they report to.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 16 Feb 2013 18:45

How India is preparing to counter the China threat
India is bolstering its defences vis-a-vis China in a big way and is set to spend at least $15 billion for China-specific military activities by 2017.

Though the scale of the Indian military preparation is grossly small compared to what China has already done with regard to India, it gives a sense of how much China has been dominating Indian military thinking and strategy over the past few years.

George Fernandes was the first Indian Defence Minister to have gone on record in describing China as India’s “potential enemy one.”

The then Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee had corroborated this articulation immediately in the wake of the May 1998 Pokharan-II nuclear tests by explaining to the world powers that the Indian move was in response to the threats posed by Chinese nuclear weapons.

Since then China has officially replaced Pakistan as India’s number one threat perception.

It is now a decade-and-a-half since India has been overtly preparing itself militarily to deal with the potential Chinese threat even though the two neighbours continue to intensify their bilateral engagement, which includes military-to-military contacts. India-China trade has been galloping with every passing year and the quantum is all set to reach a historic $100 billion mark very soon.
:
:
:
However, there is one fact that goes in favour of the Indians. China has never fought a war since 1962. The Chinese troops are not battle-tested. In contrast, Indian soldiers have fought two full-fledged wars with Pakistan (1965 and 1971) and a limited war in Kargil in 1999. Besides the Indian soldiers are in war-like theatres across the country for the past three decades continuously, thanks to numerous terrorist and insurgent activities.

The Chinese must be aware of that!

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 16 Feb 2013 21:59

The bungled operation in Somalia to rescue the french spy 'Denis Alex' was lead by the DGSE's (french external intel) Special action group only and not by the defence min's CoS (french army special forces). They actually took more casualties than they have publicly released - another 3 members are critical in addition to the 3 dead they announced.

The DGSE chief visited the homes of the dead personally.

So what happened? Plan was made quickly as soon as intel came of location of Denis. Plan was to get airdropped 9km away from the target site in the night and approach the target compound in a surprise attack. Unfortunately, they were spotted early en-route at some point and the shabaab were waiting for them. The forces were equipped with silencers on their rifles.

1 got shot in the courtyard and in the 3 hour gunbattle, his body was left behind. as casualties mounted, order was given to exfiltrate the SF troops out. Exfiltration was again led by the SAG's airwing.

Now there are calls to merge SAG and the COS(french SF) but no plans yet by hollande


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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Aaryan » 26 Feb 2013 14:01

http://www.esquire.com/features/man-who-shot-osama-bin-laden-0313

At Jalalabad, the Shooter saw the CIA analyst pacing. She asked me why I was so calm. I told her, We do this every night. We go to a house, we ****** with some people, and we leave. This is just a longer flight. She looked at me and said, "One hundred percent he's on the third floor. So get to there if you can." She was probably 90 percent sure, and her emotion pushed that to 100.


I have been thinking of asking this question for some time... My question is.. I can understand that she was sure that OSB was there... But how come she was soo damm sure about him being on 3rd floor??? He could have been in some underground blast proof room... Why did she mention only 3rd floor as if she knew his exact location.. Some thing thing is missing... :roll: :roll:

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby anmol » 26 Feb 2013 17:42


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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 27 Feb 2013 00:47

The Prime Minister's Men

The reference is apparently to former Prime Minister Inder Gujral. It is not correct that Gujral ordered the R&AW operations in Pakistan to be abandoned. The R&AW had two kinds of operations in Pakistan— for intelligence collection and covert action.

He ordered only the operations for covert action to be closed since he felt that such a gesture might facilitate his efforts to improve relations with Pakistan under the so-called Gujral Doctrine. He did not order the intelligence collection operations to be discontinued.
It would have been stupid on his part to have done so. He, like all our Prime Ministers before and after him, understood the importance of a good intelligence collection capability in Pakistan. What he ordered to be closed accounted for only about 15 per cent of the R&AW’s operations in Pakistan. He encouraged the remaining 85 per cent to continue.


When the NDA government under Mr Atal Behari Vajpayee came to office, the intelligence community was hoping that he would cancel Gujral’s decision and order the resumption of covert action operations in Pakistan. To their surprise, they found that Vajpayee too, like Gujral, wanted the R&AW to focus on intelligence collection in Pakistan and avoid operations for covert action.


-Ankit

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Feb 2013 03:29

Centre relents on NCTC to inform states before Operations


....
The Centre is learnt to have agreed to inform the chief of state police organisations before conducting any anti-terror operations in that state, sources said.

The Central government has proposed that the NCTC be kept out of the ambit of Intelligence Bureau and remain as an independent entity directly reporting to the Home Ministry, a change from its earlier stand.

...

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 27 Feb 2013 05:09

Watch...last minute they will try to insert something.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Feb 2013 05:39

Actually this shows the failure of the IB under the Congress Raj. It has been reduced to a political intelligence bureau (of the ruling party) like the KGB or SS and now it has to be revamped to fight terrorists.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 27 Feb 2013 20:21

Wonder if the states will get veto power on operations?

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Sachin » 28 Feb 2013 12:15

ramana wrote:It has been reduced to a political intelligence bureau (of the ruling party) like the KGB or SS and now it has to be revamped to fight terrorists.

The opposition for NCTC comes from mainly non-Congress ruled states. I really cannot blame them here. Because it is now pretty much sure that CBI and IB etc. are more like Special branches of the Congress. Perhaps the Central Govt. is just trying to use the public anger (because of the bomb blasts) to some how push the existing NCTC. But I feel the state governments should retain the power for managing their own home grounds.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Feb 2013 13:00

shyamd wrote:Wonder if the states will get veto power on operations?

An intelligence organisation should not get powers of detention, period. They should go through whatever normal police procedures are. If today it means, involving even state police vetos, it is fine in the long run, the same procedure as the CBI has. If required NCTC can coordinate with CBI and work out a procedure to overcome it in extreme circumstances. An intelligence organisation should know before hand, that detention is not within its powers. We dont want NCTC to be an ISI.

Other operations are okay. Any organisation which has powers of detention must also be answerable to habeas corpus, which means within hours of any body under detention - the detained names should come out.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... nce-bureau
The intelligence bureau of India is without a statute or a law. The only law on which it operates is below. So let us not create an unanswerable body on which nobody except the ruling party knows its details.
http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/Laws/T ... t-1985.htm

The Criminal procedural code of India has this under the law.
http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/CrPc/s41.htm
I believe that is omnibus enough for any requirement.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2013 20:10

Terrorist attacks in India happen because they are allowed to happen (by INC). Its not like they will be prevented with a newly empowered NCTC. What case as NIA solved so far? Not even one.
All these are to cover up INC crimes and foist crimes on Opposition parties to reduce them. Same as the Mukhabarat in the Caliphate and modern Arab times.


INC in its last gasps is bringing in Emergency like powers without declaring it.

Sachin even Congress ruled states saw NCTC as a Chidambaram move to strengthen his position to become PM. It would have been used first on them to make them support him.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby RamaY » 28 Feb 2013 21:09

One Burkhadutt debate, I posted the link somewhere, has a BJP RS MP saying that the in it's original proposed form NCTC is not answerable to parliament, which is akin to ISI structure.

Not sure if PC was trying to build an Indian ISI (which became a pain in RAPE's bottom) that would be a pain in 2G bottoms.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 28 Feb 2013 21:34

RamaY wrote:One Burkhadutt debate, I posted the link somewhere, has a BJP RS MP saying that the in it's original proposed form NCTC is not answerable to parliament, which is akin to ISI structure.

Not sure if PC was trying to build an Indian ISI (which became a pain in RAPE's bottom) that would be a pain in 2G bottoms.

I am sure you are talking about this debate:
are-we-apathetic-in-our-response-to-terrorism

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby shyamd » 02 Mar 2013 07:15

This whole NCTC thing is nonsense. Just create NCTC within the NIA - NIA has authority to operate at federal level and make arrests. So MAC can pass on the intel to NIA. Develop a specialist cell in NIA that deals solely with terror cases across the country. Create a special anti terror force for raids. Intel collection - well the moment intel picks something up - they can pass to NIA for investigation

But again this will create a large bureaucracy as NIA will deal with crime as well

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 02 Mar 2013 10:02

The gov can't even be original about the name. They just took it from the Americans. What a bunch of bloody jokers. Get rid of the NIA and reform the IB and R&AW.

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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Mar 2013 10:12

RoyG wrote:The gov can't even be original about the name. They just took it from the Americans. What a bunch of bloody jokers. Get rid of the NIA and reform the IB and R&AW.


Chidu , NSA and our Intel Chief have spent a lot of time with Agencies in US when they went there perhaps inspired lot.

Never mind what they name it as long as it works as it suppose to , Indian Intel in past 2 decade atleast when it come to terrorism prevention and subsequent elimination/conviction has been a spectacular disaster.


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