Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2010 14:21

chetak wrote:Free flow of info be damned. There are other means to safe guard free flow.


Well a smart state sponsored terrorist/anti-national elements/agencies will easily find a way out of BB service and can function efficiently , they don't really need a BB to remain effective.

As long as there is a valid court approval to tap into data ,RIM will be bound by it and will provide the data as demanded , for the rest its just the agencies thriving in their own insecurity be it Indian or UAE.

Avinash R
BRFite
Posts: 1973
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 19:59

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 03 Aug 2010 18:22

Kailash wrote:‘ISI agent’ held in Ferozepur

The Ferozepur police have arrested one Rajavillah who had been living in the town for the last three years with a fake identity of Rakesh Kumar. According to the police, Rajavillah was sent by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and he had been supplying secret information of the Indian Army, details of ammunition, railway lines and bridges to the neighbouring country via email.

The police said a laptop computer had been seized from the accused and more details would be revealed after investigation. The “ISI agent” was arrested on a secret information by the CIA staff in-charge Sarabjit Singh.


No mention of CIA in this report and some other details differ too
ISI agent living under cover in Punjab arrested

Avinash R
BRFite
Posts: 1973
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 19:59

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 03 Aug 2010 18:30

Austin wrote:Well a smart state sponsored terrorist/anti-national elements/agencies will easily find a way out of BB service and can function efficiently , they don't really need a BB to remain effective.

As long as there is a valid court approval to tap into data ,RIM will be bound by it and will provide the data as demanded , for the rest its just the agencies thriving in their own insecurity be it Indian or UAE.


Sharad pawar, Nitish kumar and carrot man may communicate using blackberry to escape phone tapping.
When the targets are political opponents then court orders are difficult to obtain.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3304
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 03 Aug 2010 18:54

Er, there is a bit of exaggeration going on in this BB business.

The way this system works is best described by this diagram

Image

What is proprietary to BB is the encryption between BB Enterprise Server to the wireless network and the connection between BB Enterprise server to the E-mail server. The email servers, themselves are NOT in control of BB, indeed they belong to the company that the BB user belongs to. These servers are not encrypted, and a simple request by the police to the email sysadmin of the company will allow the police to monitor the communication.

What the govt. agencies want is the ability to eavesdrop without the company knowing it, doing away with the need to track down the email server owners.

Of course, even if the govt gets its way and BB reveals the codes, the whole thing is easily circumvented if someone uses PGP or something similar.

On a related note, they seem to have agreed if you believe ToI group

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Inf ... ms?curpg=1

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3304
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 03 Aug 2010 19:07

Austin wrote:Does not speak well about our agencies interception and decoding facility.

If I am not wrong in US NSA has maintained the encryption level to 128 bit for all systems exported from US and US Gov internal communication needs atleast 256 bit encryption which is mandatory.


This is of course, incorrect:

http://www.bis.doc.gov/encryption/lechart1.htm

Another one that states relaxed controls:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/14768/us ... olicy.html

You can legally export and use encryption products such as PGP at huge key lengths. GPG allows you to do precisely that.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10097
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Aug 2010 19:15

On a related note, they seem to have agreed if you believe ToI group

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Inf ... ms?curpg=1

If ToI's earlier report ( about 1-1.5 yrs back) was to be believed, NTRO had cracked the BB encryption ( ToI words, not mine).

If the author of "Shadow Factory" is to be believed, Indian agencies had approached certain Canadian agencies/people to crack BB and they had agreed to it ( atleast 2-3 years back).

So, not sure what to finally believe!! :-?

Anshul
BRFite
Posts: 133
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 12:53
Location: Potala Palace,Lhasa

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Anshul » 03 Aug 2010 19:30

sum wrote:
Anshul wrote:The level of tech int available with the MI needs to be seen to be believed.We are self sufficient wrt tech-int at the moment.Infact we actually possess enough to share with the CIA/MI6/Mossad.The cold start doctrine relies heavily on tech-int.

Saar,

Are you mentioning only about MI or all agencies in general ( RAW, ARC, NTRO etc)?

From where have we caught hold of such complex equipment to be self-sufficient in TECHINT? Is everything imported?


Actually yes...and the flow of tech data to brigade/battalion levels is humungous.UAV + IRSAT + CARTOSAT + Comm Intercepts + Humint + Psych Profiling of Chini + Paki Commanders till unit level.There is so much data and so much detail that our guys don't know how much is too much.

IA has come of age....

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2010 20:29

sum wrote:If ToI's earlier report ( about 1-1.5 yrs back) was to be believed, NTRO had cracked the BB encryption ( ToI words, not mine).


Probably RIM must be changing their encryption algorithm regularly and hence what could be true for a specific period of time might not be true say today.

If indeed our agencies would have managed to crack the encryption they would not have made such a fuss to the extent of banning it and ditto for UAE and Saudi , their encryption must be a hard nut to deal with.

What about RIM/BB users in Europe , US and Russia , do intel agencies of these countries make a fuss about BB ?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2010 20:45

Tanaji isnt it true that only 128 bit encryption is allowed to be exported from US , didnt US Gov and MS had a big issue on this and finally they settled for 128 bit as it implied NSA had the capability to break these hence US Gov concerns were met ?

The email servers, themselves are NOT in control of BB, indeed they belong to the company that the BB user belongs to. These servers are not encrypted, and a simple request by the police to the email sysadmin of the company will allow the police to monitor the communication.


Why would BB not take those precautions of not encrypting mail on local server , when it can go to the extent of encrypting the whole range.

What the govt. agencies want is the ability to eavesdrop without the company knowing it, doing away with the need to track down the email server owners.


Well that would be a bad thing if this eavesdrop is not a authorised one and done at the behest of political/bureaucratic master.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3304
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 03 Aug 2010 23:00

Austin wrote:Tanaji isnt it true that only 128 bit encryption is allowed to be exported from US , didnt US Gov and MS had a big issue on this and finally they settled for 128 bit as it implied NSA had the capability to break these hence US Gov concerns were met ?



Why would BB not take those precautions of not encrypting mail on local server , when it can go to the extent of encrypting the whole range.

.


That was true earlier, but currently as long as you dont belong to Country Group E:1 you can get high grade encryption, with some restriction on military etc use.

BB's responsibility is secure delivery of email to your mail server, not mail server itself. The mail server is your corporation's responsibility and domain, why would BB care?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2010 23:10

Austin wrote:What about RIM/BB users in Europe , US and Russia , do intel agencies of these countries make a fuss about BB ?


May be these guys already have it on the quiet.

RIM may not be averse to sharing info with gora countries.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3304
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 03 Aug 2010 23:45

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:What about RIM/BB users in Europe , US and Russia , do intel agencies of these countries make a fuss about BB ?


May be these guys already have it on the quiet.

RIM may not be averse to sharing info with gora countries.


Very likely, but it is also true that these agencies monitor *all* data traffic regardless and they can suck whatever they want on the unencrypted end or bug the device itself using a keylogger type of program. We dont do either of those, hence the requirement.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Aug 2010 02:07

As long as there is a valid court approval to tap into data ,RIM will be bound by it and will provide the data as demanded , for the rest its just the agencies thriving in their own insecurity be it Indian or UAE..



if the server is in canada - RIM will claim Canadian jusidiction or some nonsense reason and not comply with any court order. And what if we need it urgently.

in a fast moving environment one cannot wait for the courts.

Sudip
BRFite
Posts: 378
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 05:42
Location: Paikhana

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Sudip » 04 Aug 2010 02:47

deleted
Last edited by Sudip on 04 Aug 2010 03:39, edited 2 times in total.


Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Aug 2010 03:43

ban them

Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 04 Aug 2010 04:13

why?? because they refuse to part with the encryption key?? How about FUND the R&D department of TCS, INFOSYS and IIT's to come up a way to NOT ONLY crack their encryption, but also hack into their servers located in KAN-ADA, if India is going to claim to be a software giant in the IT, then it needs to PROVE it's METTLE!

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7533
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Prasad » 04 Aug 2010 04:50

And do what until then?

Thomas Kolarek
BRFite
Posts: 179
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 08:10

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 04 Aug 2010 05:07

Ask US Intelligence for help, if they don't help - kick RIM out of the country. Afraid of backlash, silently kill them (Our politicians are expert in that :) )

Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 04 Aug 2010 05:13

precisely what they have been doing all along!

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2393
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 04 Aug 2010 05:32

India goes on the offensive in cyber warfare

According to a proposal being considered by the National Security Council, Indian agencies may be told to enhance capabilities to exploit weaknesses in the information systems of other countries and also collect online intelligence of key military activities.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Aug 2010 05:41

why?? because they refuse to part with the encryption key?? How about FUND the R&D department of TCS, INFOSYS and IIT's to come up a way to NOT ONLY crack their encryption, but also hack into their servers located in KAN-ADA, if India is going to claim to be a software giant in the IT, then it needs to PROVE it's METTLE!


why - because they do not kow tow to us

R&D of IT comps is a seperate activity - it can be done without any relation to the RIM business. Plus why would I do it with TCS, Infosys etc - they leak like sieves plus they have a diff task and recruitment need

there are other companies where I can quietly deal on those issues.

Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 04 Aug 2010 05:43

Surya wrote:
why?? because they refuse to part with the encryption key?? How about FUND the R&D department of TCS, INFOSYS and IIT's to come up a way to NOT ONLY crack their encryption, but also hack into their servers located in KAN-ADA, if India is going to claim to be a software giant in the IT, then it needs to PROVE it's METTLE!


why - because they do not kow tow to us
not sure what you are trying to say here?
R&D of IT comps is a seperate activity - it can be done without any relation to the RIM business. Plus why would I do it with TCS, Infosys etc - they leak like sieves plus they have a diff task and recruitment need

there are other companies where I can quietly deal on those issuesgood then go on and do that, why make a fuss about banning RIM?.

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby munna » 04 Aug 2010 05:50

^^National rules and regulations reign supreme. Either they (MNCs) obey them or stop doing business, any business that will fail to comply with Indian sovereign laws and regulations will have to shut shop. Simple onlee.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Aug 2010 06:05

there are other companies where I can quietly deal on those issuesgood then go on and do that, why make a fuss about banning RIM?.

:eek:

never mind

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 Aug 2010 07:09

BlackBerry Maker Resists Governments’ Pressure

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/technology/04rim.html

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Aug 2010 09:01

IE today has carried an overview of BB , it seems USAF has modified BB to prevent bluetooth function on all phone and blocking images and video. Pakistan banned BB briefly due to derogatory on Prophet.

France has banned Govt Employees using BB , some gulf countries are consider banning or blocking BB service.

So the GOI is making too much fuss when ROI by and large lives happily with it , rather then banning then let the agency come up with some cracker if they want to illegally snoop.

I think the issue is only with agency wanting to illegally snoop on some one , legally BB will comply with what ever it has to do.

This is probably the same scam we saw with agency randomly snooping on communication and tapping without any legal jurisdiction

Added Later :

Seems like in Russia the FSB too has some issues with BB which were resolved before its introduction link

The technology, widely used in most parts of the world, was delayed in Russia over a dispute between RIM and the Federal Security Service (FSB) over BlackBerry's encryption software. The FSB is responsible for issuing certificates for technology capable of encrypting data.

The FSB demanded the manufacturer hand over details of the encryption codes citing security reasons, but the company refused and the deadlock lasted until November 2007, when a compromise was reached.

MTS agreed to provide the security agency with a list of subscribers, the FSB later confirmed the device complied with Russian laws and gave the go ahead for the smart phone to go on sale.


Kailash
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 02:32

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Kailash » 04 Aug 2010 11:01

Surya wrote:R&D of IT comps is a seperate activity - it can be done without any relation to the RIM business. Plus why would I do it with TCS, Infosys etc - they leak like sieves plus they have a diff task and recruitment need

there are other companies where I can quietly deal on those issues.


Precisely. There are specialist companies which handle cyber security, crypto-stuff etc. Though these efforts can been started in the background, IMO banning RIM would send a very quick and direct message!!

Sudip
BRFite
Posts: 378
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 05:42
Location: Paikhana

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Sudip » 04 Aug 2010 13:27

Nokia will play by Indian rules on push mail

As part of its overall move to tighten security, the Indian government has also asked Indian telecommunications service providers to get their networks certified for network forensics, network hardening, network penetration test and risk assessment by government-approved, internationally accredited network audit and certification agencies. The government will also have access under the new rules to equipment software codes and hardware designs for inspection.

The move follows demands from telecom operators that they should be allowed to purchase equipment from Chinese vendors.


nits
BRFite
Posts: 1012
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby nits » 05 Aug 2010 16:22


Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Aug 2010 16:48

So much from RIMs nonsensical claims. as others find out about special accomodations for certain countries the rpessure mounts :)

Indonesia joins the crowd

ha ha

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/41087/2 ... shares.htm

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSGE6740B920100805

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1012
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby nits » 05 Aug 2010 17:15

As per news article; RIM Shares are droping... this is the correct way by which this guys will learn how important it is to comply with government norms for a study Business...

BTW does any one know how this issue is tackled in US\UK as its integral part of every corporate personnel there...i remember Obama wanted BB for him to be continued in Oval office and it was specially modified to prevent hacking...

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Aug 2010 17:28

FACTBOX-BlackBerry security explained

As per that link even in US they need a valid court order to tap into BB

What kind of access does the U.S. government enjoy?

A. U.S. authorities can seek a court order to tap BlackBerry traffic, giving them access to messages sent over the network. Officials with Research in Motion declined to talk about how they provide such access. It is possible that the government provides such requests directly to RIM's customers.


That is the right procedure , random and indiscriminate tapping should be prevented be it BB or any thing , as long as RIM complies with Indian Court order to tap is a valid request and should be complied.

jaladipc
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 20:51
Location: i CAN ADA

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 05 Aug 2010 17:46

nits wrote:As per news article; RIM Shares are droping... this is the correct way by which this guys will learn how important it is to comply with government norms for a study Business...

BTW does any one know how this issue is tackled in US\UK as its integral part of every corporate personnel there...i remember Obama wanted BB for him to be continued in Oval office and it was specially modified to prevent hacking...

May people are taking it as a proper negative investment.They are having a put option.RIM went almost down to its 52 wk low.
Image

And fears started among those about RIM profits to drop again this year which may further lead to re-organising the Co-means job losses?

Lol,Mike is one heck of an arrogant idiot.He infact deserves this.I wish almost whole Asia bans this freaken BB. :rotfl:

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Aug 2010 18:41

LOL

Austin you been hiding under a rock somewhere???

Ever since 9\11 in various manner the US has procedures that does not have to wait on a judge (even for 24 to 36 hrs it would take them).

The judge route is fine for internal Indian companies 9telecom etc.

But RIM with its server abroad - is a different case. No canadian company or judge will even entertain our request with any urgency

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Aug 2010 19:05

How do you know they will not entertain our request with urgency , have we ever given any judicial or executive request that they RIM or the host country has slept upon ?

The Indian Agency has just been making fuss over nothing since probably they have developed the bad habit over time of randomly tapping into phones without any judicial order as the recent random phone tapping incident few months back have shown to be the case.

Barring a few countries none of them have been making much fuss and RIM/BB has been working well and intel agency have approved the same.

Lets hope they resolve this issue within our judicial system without invading unnecessarily into individual privacy in the name of national security.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Aug 2010 19:14

how many requests for terrorism or anything else made by India has been entertained??? Please enlighten this abdul

Who are those few countries that you seem to so happy to believe in??

looks like RIM quietly made arrangements with the chinese , Russians etc

The Anglo countries have there little network to siphon whatever is needed (US, UK, Can andAus\NZ)

Now as other countries are finding out they are making a stand


Regarding your concerns about Indian intel misusing - well those concerns exist everywhere but thats a seperate mechanism to deal with it.

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1012
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby nits » 05 Aug 2010 19:15

I believe now major issue is resolved and only area of conflict is BB Messenger where one BB User can chat to another BB User...

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Aug 2010 19:23

Surya wrote:how many requests for terrorism or anything else made by India has been entertained??? Please enlighten this abdul


Barring Pakistan who does not seem to care about any request , the ROW has been co-operating at least if we tend to believe the official statement.

looks like RIM quietly made arrangements with the chinese , Russians etc


Does not look like and RIM has denied that it has made special arrangement with any one.

The Anglo countries have there little network to siphon whatever is needed (US, UK, Can andAus\NZ)


Does not matter little or more network , it just proves only few countries are making fuss

Now as other countries are finding out they are making a stand


You can probably count on your finger tips the countries that are making noise compared to those where RIM is operating

Regarding your concerns about Indian intel misusing - well those concerns exist everywhere but thats a seperate mechanism to deal with it.


All mechanism should exist within the judicial law of the country , just few months back they were happily tapping into mobile phone , thankfully it got exposed or else they would have continued their dirty tricks in the name of national security.


Return to “History & Current Affairs Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests