Understanding Sikh History-1

Locked
Manu
BRFite
Posts: 765
Joined: 28 May 2003 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Manu »

I don't think so Ramana. History of Punjab is ancient. Jats are very late arrivals, historically speaking. Even Baba Nanak was a Khatri.

As for Jats being Rajput, a lot of communities claim that, for some reason. Even Gujjars.

During Babar's time, Jats of the salt range were at war with Gakkhars, Awans and Janjuas. So they are not the same people. Culturally very different also.

Col. James Tod did write about this as well.

The movie 'GULAMI' by J.P Dutta shows the Jatts (played by Dharmendra) being discriminated against by the Rajputs.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Supratik »

Jats and Rajputs arrive in Indian history at around the same time. There is one line of hypothesis that the Indo-Scythian ruling elite amalgamated with existing ruling class to form Rajputs while the non-elite took to agriculture and became Jats. Their geographical pre-ponderance is within the region ruled by the Western Satraps. The Gujjars on the other hand entered with the Huns and were their vassals. After the Huns were routed the Gujjars stayed back and became pastoralists and agriculturalists.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

Manu! The Rajputs discrimination against Jats is only Rajasthan phenomenon and is probably just "Bollywood".

All the elders that I talked to from my community say that "Jats came from Rajsthan" and settled in Punjab.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

Most of the Rajputs are either "Suryavanhi" or "Chandrabansi" and so are most of the Jats. Bajwa's are same as Bajju Rajputs who are Suryavanshi.

Sandhus are descendants from the Bhatti Rajput named Raja Jasle of Jaisamaler.

Randhawa are descendants from the Jadun Bhatti Rajput of Bikaner

and so forth!! almost all Jats trace their origin to the Rajputs of Rajputana (who might have come from outside of India i.e. Scythia or whatever).
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

Even Baba Nanak was a Khatri.
He lived in an area called "Rae Bhoe di Talwandi" which was owned by Bhatti Raja (His ancestors were with Prithviraj Chauhan defeated, converted and never returned to Rajputana) He became "Bhatti" Jat.
Manu
BRFite
Posts: 765
Joined: 28 May 2003 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Manu »

SBajwa wrote:Manu! The Rajputs discrimination against Jats is only Rajasthan phenomenon and is probably just "Bollywood".

All the elders that I talked to from my community say that "Jats came from Rajsthan" and settled in Punjab.
My Grandmother always said I am the most handsome man to walk the earh, did not make it reality.

Let us not try to distort history. Rajputs living in Punjab still have a very distinct identity.

Sangat Singh Minhas, Bhai Bachitter Singh Minhas etc. are considered "Sikh Rajputs", not Jutts.

Gurdaspur and Hoshiarpur Rajputs are Hindu. They do not consider themselves Jutts.

Punjab Rajputs do not intermarry with Jutts unless it's a love marriage, in which case nothing matters. My in-laws are Jutts, however it is a love marriage.

I am neither Rajput nor Jutt but do not want Ramana to draw conclusions from your posts and make statements like "Punjab is extended Rajputana", it is not..And Sikh History is not Jutt History....I hope people understand that

I am sure, even Porus was a Jutt :roll:

In the words of the immortal TSJones...for your perusal and edification

Click here
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

Once again Mr. Manu!!!

Bajju Rajputs and Bajwa Jutts
Tiwana Rajputs and Tiwana Jutts
Bhatti Rajputs and Bhatti Jutts
Parmar Rajputs and Birring Jutts
and almost all Jats have a common heritage with Rajputs and they trace their lineage to some Rajput!!!

Google it and check it out for yourself!!

some (same people who talk about Aryan invasion theory) say that Rajputs and Jats are Scythians/Sakas who came out of India.

Other say that Rajputs/Jats scattered out of Rajputana region after/before/during each Arabian/Mughal/Afghan attack into India.

Some people even found an Indian tribe living in Europe having same customs as of Rajputana.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Singha »

I see some sections of people from Punjab area having more 'mongoloid' eyes .... is it due to the Kushans having lived in that region punjab-north TSP-north afghanistan with HQ in pushpapura(peshawar)?
they were buddhist and of Yuezhi stock. a bust of kanishka from 3rd century ad http://uniquecollection.files.wordpress ... 160049.jpg

the huns were also pictured in amar chitra katha as having uzbeki type features. babur and his cohort were ofcourse mostly uzbeks....some must have melted into the society here.

also what is the history of the "Mirza" among indian muslims - original turkic imported bloodline or someone converted and got the title. are they part of the ashraf fair skinned elite?
Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Yayavar »

one doesnt have to trace every characteristic to some event in history. Hills are not far off, Nepal is not far off, and a mutation can always happen with recessive genes continuing. Eye types are a continuum.

Amar chitra katha always had ancient desis bare chested at all times; it must have been very warm in those times. During war too they have some armour but are otherwise fully exposed. I doubt that was the reality.
Manu
BRFite
Posts: 765
Joined: 28 May 2003 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Manu »

Ok Bajwa ji!!!!

As you like...everyone is a Rajput... :roll:

Maybe Airavat can comment, as I clearly do not have the patience...
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by negi »

Well this talk about Rajputs from Rajasthan is pretty interesting , they say that the 'patti' (sub division under a zila i.e. district) from where I come from i.e. Bichla Badalpur in Uttarakhand was originally a settlement of Rajputs and Jats from Rajasthan who had fled to foot hills of himalayas ( Garhwal and Kumaon ) during invasion by the Mughals. However if one would look at most of the natives from Garhwal and Kumaon most of us tend of have a bit of Mongoloid features specially rounded eyes and less hair on the body, even average height is on the shorter side in these regions when compared to Shekhawats, Rathores and other Rajput or Jat clans.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »


also what is the history of the "Mirza" among indian muslims - original turkic imported bloodline or someone converted and got the title. are they part of the ashraf fair skinned elite?
Who is Mirza? are you talking about the love story of Mirza Sahiban (Punjabi)?
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Kakkaji »

About this "out of Rajasthan" theory, Rajasthan even today is relatively sparsely populated. Even among this population, the Rajputs are not numerically dominant.

In the old days, the living conditions were so tough in this desert region, the land and the climate never supported a large population, compared to the river valleys to the west and east. On top of that, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were always fighting and killing each other, and their own infant girls.

Where was a surplus Rajput population in Rajasthan that could have spread all over as is claimed by various communities in India and Pakistan? :-? :-?

I think what has happened is that from time-to-time, all over India, various communities that showed valour and martial prowess claimed descent from the Rajput clans of Rajasthan.

I think the Jats of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, and Pakistan look similar. And the Rajputs of Rajasthan look different from them.
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Vikas »

SBajwa wrote:

also what is the history of the "Mirza" among indian muslims - original turkic imported bloodline or someone converted and got the title. are they part of the ashraf fair skinned elite?
Who is Mirza? are you talking about the love story of Mirza Sahiban (Punjabi)?
Sandeep ji, I think he is talking about Mirza surname as in Iskandar Mirza.
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Virendra »

Kakkaji wrote:About this "out of Rajasthan" theory.
The same breed of conctions that try to relate everything worthwhile in this country to something foreign, something which came recently in from west direction.
Rajputs have maintained strong geneological, cultural and ritual markers from vedic ancestry that only the blind would believe and propagate such sycthian BS.
Those who've seen Rajputs closely know that they have nothing of Sycthians and everything of Vedic Kshatriyas.
Kakkaji wrote:On top of that, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were always fighting and killing each other, and their own infant girls.
Not sure where you're going with this. If you mean Jauhars then they were very desperate measures but not forced down the throat of women and infant girls. Tragic yet voluntary.
If you mean the abortion or discrimination of girl child, it is an omni-present issue and not the hallmark of Rajputs.
Reasons may have been there when it was done in medieval centuries but today it is injustifiable. No doubt about that.
We don't see the parda/ghoonghat in vedic kashatriya women even at the descriptions/evidences of after Gupta and Hunnic period. However it is prevalant since medieval centuries.
It all started with the advent of fanatic ghazis of Islam. They would focus their attack on looting everything and everyone they deem attractive was soon quite explicit to all. Money, land, resources, women, slaves .. list goes on.
Kakkaji wrote:Where was a surplus Rajput population in Rajasthan that could have spread all over as is claimed by various communities in India and Pakistan? :-? :-?
I agree. And in medieval centuries the clans kept getting depleted by constant warfare. Thought for a common ancestry many centuries far back, I don't know and hence will not comment. The lines are bound to meet somewhere.
Kakkaji wrote:I think what has happened is that from time-to-time, all over India, various communities that showed valour and martial prowess claimed descent from the Rajput clans of Rajasthan.
The claims generate from the power aspirations. Which ever community or caste is seen a drawing power from top, will be the hottest and everyone will claim descent from it. Claims shift on basis of whichever is the coolest camp of power draw.
To them it seems like a cool thing to do and mind you, denial would evoke a sharp response :D
Kakkaji wrote:I think the Jats of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, and Pakistan look similar. And the Rajputs of Rajasthan look different from them.
I find looks very deceiving. The Genotypes and Phenotypes confuse the situation.
Same genotype people might sahve different phenotypes and hence different looks etc. Like that various scenarios.

By the way, as we know that most of the Sikhs are converts from Hindus and Muslims. It is quite probable that some of them were Rajputs as well.
However it is technically incorrect to coin a term like 'Sikh Rajput' or 'Muslim Rajput'. I hear it sometimes. You're either a Sikh/Muslim or a Rajput.
Although it is equally true that in ancient times the varna system (Brahmins/Kashatriya/Vaishya/Sudra) was neither discriminatory nor birth fixed like the castes of medieval times.
So in my opinion every Indian army soldier can call himself a Kshatriya and being an an Information Engineer I'd put myself as a Brahmin or Sudra :P Sudra perhaps :D

Regards,
Virendra
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Virendra »

Mirza comes from 'Amir Zada'?
'Amir' was their term equivalent to King and Zada is for 'Son'?
Mughal emperors giving their Rajput (Raja Putra) generals the title of Mirza makes sense then?
I may be wrong here.
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by member_20317 »

negi wrote:Well this talk about Rajputs from Rajasthan is pretty interesting , they say that the 'patti' (sub division under a zila i.e. district) from where I come from i.e. Bichla Badalpur in Uttarakhand was originally a settlement of Rajputs and Jats from Rajasthan who had fled to foot hills of himalayas ( Garhwal and Kumaon ) during invasion by the Mughals. However if one would look at most of the natives from Garhwal and Kumaon most of us tend of have a bit of Mongoloid features specially rounded eyes and less hair on the body, even average height is on the shorter side in these regions when compared to Shekhawats, Rathores and other Rajput or Jat clans.
negi ji, in trying to understand the Uttranchali history I came across one interesting example, of all places in ToI (I think you may have chanced upon it too). The 'Saraiyaan Community' is an actual community even today in Rajasthan. While in Rajasthan this community had seen tough times with professional prostitution being taken up there, but in Uttaranchal this has not been the case. And in both Rajasthan and in Uttaranchal the folklore regarding this community and even the traditional profession of village bards has remained unchanged.

Also my view is that most of the Uttaranchal is populated by people with a heavy mix of a markedly varied genetic pool. At least that is what is apparent morphologically. While I do look somewhat like what you are describing but only with about 7 extra inches. My Maternal Uncle looks more Central Asian then even the real ones but a bit on the shorter side. Also a lot of my extended family has features that have more in common with the people from UP. This kind of variety is possible only when there has been a lot of mixing with more than one set of populations by a more mobile set of population.

I believe this folklore that Uttaranchalies have their roots (cultural) in Rajasthan may have a lot of truth to it. Even the festivals have a lot of pointers in this direction. The food staples on the other hand give a lot of pointers towards mixing with the natives of UP & Bihar.

OT here but then this should also find a place in the Sikh history thread. Sikhs along with Jats, have had some influence in the Uttaranchal areas also and it would be good for people to understand how the Sikhs have interacted with neighboring populations.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

I think before Saraswati river dried up the area of Rajasthan was fertile with good population., after this river dried up people migrated to other areas.
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Virendra »

Can this be found out by comparitively dating the sites near Sarasvati vis. a vis. the ones at Indus bank and elsewhere?
I think the studies till now have given only a broad range of centuries. But that the sites concentration now seems higher near Sarasvati than other rivers is confirmed now.

According to Danino and Rajaram, Sarasvati dried up between 2200BC and 1900 BC. It was healthy till 3500 BC and started drying up gradually afterwards. It is said that Krishna's elder brother Balram did some pilgrimages at temples near Sarasvati bank during/around Mahabharata war. I don't remember the exact source details.

Regards,
Virendra
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10388
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Yagnasri »

Original Mahabharatha itself says that. Balarama refused to take sides and has went of pilgrimage and he came back to see Bhima and Duryodhana fight. He went to see Prabhasa Therdhan. Not out of place to mention here that the river for which a Pradakshina can be done is Narmada river. It starts from Amarakantak and to Areabian see and back. boat service at see allows us to go to the see in one side and come back in the bank of other side to compleate the pradakshina. One more thing about Narmada is that you have to take bath in Ganga to purify your self from your sins, but by mere chanting of name of Narmada your sins will be washed away.
Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Sushupti »

Nice Pictures
From: sanjeev

Namaskar,

Golden Temple or Hari Mandir Amritsar – this collection takes you for a virtual tour of the holy temple. We show every place that devotees worship for reasons for faith and honoring the brave, the Akal Takht and the weapons kept there in, the daily ceremony whereby the Guru Granth Sahib is taken from the Hari Mandir and kept in the Akal Takht at night and taken back in the morning, dress and weapon of warriors plus lots more.

http://www.esamskriti.com/photo-detail/ ... e-New.aspx

Consider myself blessed because in 2012 visited Bodh Gaya, Pavapuri and now Hari Mandir. Ishwar ki kripa hai.


Warm Regards
sanjeev nayyar
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Agnimitra »

Compared to historical levels, what %age of Sikhs remain in settlements in Kabul, Jalalabad, Peshawar? Have the majority of them moved to India, or to Dubai or UK?
Peshawar Sikhs worried, insecure over kidnappings
Islamabad, January 28, 2013
Insecurity has increased in the minority sikh community of Peshawar city in northwest Pakistan after the kidnapping of a Sikh man and the killing of another, a media report said on Monday. Mohinder Singh, a herbal medicines seller, was kidnapped in Khyber tribal region last November. His mutilated body was found in a deserted location in the tribal belt last month.

Last week, kidnappers took away Raghbir Singh, a 40-year-old cloth dealer, from near his house at Quaidabad on the outskirts of Peshawar.

Around 3,000 sikhs have settled in Peshawar, mostly in Dabgari area, while hundreds more live in other districts of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province and Khyber and Orakzai tribal regions.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by ramana »

Carl wrote:SBajwa ji, thank you. In an appropriate thread, could you also give more info about Guru Nanak ji's travels to Tibet? Thanks.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from Bharateeyam thread on main forum:
ShauryaT wrote:Corporations value only economic parameters, attempts to measure things such as social responsibility and environmental aspects notwithstanding.
Yes, they are measuring personality traits and talents as relevant to their economic and administrative swaartha.

ShauryaT ji, I blogged something on your questions.

Fatehnamah - A Tale of two Wills

Image
The idea of the servant leader is already popular in corporate management styles. In public sector and non-profit management theory it is even more popular and the devotion to the 'public good' (rather than the bottom line) is a prominent subject. But even here, there is debate about what exactly is a 'public good', and whether that is a constant.

One can serve only according to one's innate proclivities. Service can be though of separately from conventional stereotypes. So in management psychology, sometimes corporate trustees will choose a CEO who is of a personality type that is motivated by growth, sometimes by a type that is motivated by maintenance of current trajectory, and sometimes by a type that is motivated by dissolving an entity for maximum gain to the trustees (while disposing off the employees in the best possible way)!

The most ethical culture in an individual, society or ideology (theistic or otherwise) comes from an Enhancement drive, where there is no perceived scarcity and want in the physical and metaphysical reality taken together as a whole. But in a mentality driven primarily by the senses, a harsh social environment or a certain kind of cult mindset, a Dominance-Slave drive is prevalent in all aspects. In such a case, humility or humiliation are the only choices. 'Lower' than that is a mentality of Voidism, which provides security by nullification or invalidation of a potential rival's significance, either physically or metaphysically.

But all three are part of Dharma, no doubt. In its struggle with Adharma, it is possible that Dharma can make any such proposal based on a different equation of hard and soft power - but always tending in the direction of an Enhancement Drive where it finds its balance.

Guru Gobind Singh ji is a sterling example of someone who created something in order to dissolve the current political structure. His mission was destruction, he wrote in praise of Chandi Durga, and he created the Khalsa - as a specific application and mission of the already existing Akali Dal. He annointed them and then asked to be annointed by them. In executing his mission, he used all three drives - nullifying, domineering, and enhancement of all elements of existing society - to accomplish his purpose, as can be seen in the Fatehnama (below).
ShauryaT wrote:Added: The only way for corporation to play a role, would be if their charter is amended to one of making profit to add other things but am not clear, what is a corporation to do in these areas, except as an organizing medium for communities. Laws will have to be amended to measure and check these other obligations apart from profit.
Corporate social responsibility needs to be fleshed out more, perhaps. They are an organizing principle in society, along with religious organizations and other social and political interest groups.

But laws can burden corporations that need to be agile and nimble in the current globalized environment - where the laws in your country are not applicable in another country and may hand them the comparative advantage if it puts too great a burden on your own corporations.

So it is public education plus dharmic sansthas that will have to inject ethics and a sense of social responsibility into the mainstream, and that lifeblood will find its way into aarthic corporations, etc. The key here is the corporatization of dharmic education (as dharmic sansthas) to some extent. This should not lead to "churchianity" of an Indic variety, given the depth of cultural context. But rather the sansthas would act as "portals" to the larger tradition, where participants are given the first rudiments in terms of ideas and also sanskaaras, that equip them to explore further and reach deeper into the civilizational and spiritual resources as needed.

Traditionally, some examples have been used to measure sanity. Certain simple spiritual practices can be good measures of personal sanity. The all-pervasive "japa" tradition in India (and abroad) is one such. The indicators expressed by a person sitting for about 2.75 to 3 hours of japa, and his ability to simply deal in separate and new units of time, without time-lag, and in the present moment, is a simple and significant measure of sanity. The ability to "do nothing" (from a material perspective) is an indicator of the ability to "do sanely" on a given responsibility, rather than be driven by a mind that's out of control. We want to identify the innate inclinations of the person, rather than the rather short-term compulsive inclinations of his mind. The compulsions and repressions of the subconscious mind (which can be manipulated by others) are not the same as the natural shamo-dama abilities of varNa, which is enacted on self-determinism or pan-determinism.

...
In the Fatehnama quoted later in the blogpost, the Guru touches on this criteria of sanity.
تسبیحات از شجه و رشته بیش

کزان دانه سازی وزان دام خویش

tasbeehat az shojeh o reshteye beesh / kazaan daaneh saazi vazaan daam e kheesh!

6. Your rosary is nothing more than tangled beads and thread, With every movement of your beads you only expand your snare of entanglements!

[Note: Here the Guru is referring to the test of sanity of will and purpose. It is an inferred fact that Aurangzeb would have not been able to experience any peace and bliss in his tasbeeh (japa), even if he carried one wherever he went. He may have clung to it for a sense of security, but there was no immediate experience of bliss in it, nor any clarity and ability gained from it. For Aurangzeb, the Holy Name was a co-dependency. For the Guru, it was a relationship based on pan-determinism.

A dharmaarthic system should foster pan-determinism between individual contributors, not co-dependency on or between elites and subjects.]
Last edited by Agnimitra on 27 Mar 2013 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by jamwal »

Kakkaji wrote:
On top of that, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were always fighting and killing each other, and their own infant girls.
:shock:


I think the Jats of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, and Pakistan look similar. And the Rajputs of Rajasthan look different from them. :rotfl:
Ruling clans all over the world have been fighting each other since the beginning of time for power, pride, land or whatever reasons. Rajasthani Rajputs were no different. Your assertion about infanticide is quite preposterous.

Last line in the post is not very believable either.


BTW, Minhas mentioned in this thread are clan brothers of Jamwals from Jammu. They are one branch of the ruling line which took to agriculture. I know some people named Manhas, but never met someone who spells his/her name as Minhas.

On a related note, what do you guys think a Rajput is ? Is he different from a Khsatriya ?
habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6919
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by habal »

Are not the Rajasthan Rajputs always included tribal Bhil royalty along with Kushan/hunnic type central asian influence. With the princely sections of these groups constantly intermarrying to create a ruling class whcih may be different from the compulsions of an ordinary farmer/tiller who may have stayed truer to his hunnic roots.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5777
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by SBajwa »

Virk Jatts actually trace their lineage to Manhas Rajputs.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Agnimitra »

April 13, 1919 - Jallianwala Bagh massacre by the British.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by shyam »

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by ArmenT »

shyam wrote:Here is a blog that argues how british manipulated Sikhs against Indians.
Sikhs aren't Indian??
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by vishvak »

Something similar to propaganda ran about Hindus (nothing other than '"the" book of Manu'). Or propaganda around Parsis - 'Zend' Avestan etc.
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Vikas »

Too much of information on this thread. My head is spinning.
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Kakkaji »

This guy Ajit Vadaykil seems to have an agenda. he is too far out for me.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by shyam »

ArmenT wrote:
shyam wrote:Here is a blog that argues how british manipulated Sikhs against Indians.
Sikhs aren't Indian??
Want to correct my post, but can not edit it... :(
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Virendra »

jamwal wrote:BTW, Minhas mentioned in this thread are clan brothers of Jamwals from Jammu. They are one branch of the ruling line which took to agriculture. I know some people named Manhas, but never met someone who spells his/her name as Minhas.

On a related note, what do you guys think a Rajput is ? Is he different from a Khsatriya ?
Rajputs are evolved from Kshatriyas only.
Tribal vedic society's reorganization took place with the advent of agriculture and widespread trade.
This reorganization was Occupation based and 'Visah' came up.
As cities and villages sprawled with the people organized in 'Visah's, to protect them 'Jana's i.e. 'Clan's came up. Occupation? - Defense and War.
Wherever there was prominent growth of population (plains with cities etc) these clans and visah's evolved into monarchies, ruled by Kings. The clans reported to the Kings there, as part of his Army.
Wherever the growth wasn't so spectacular, like hilly and other not so friendly terrains etc .. there were clan-based states.
Clan based state is an entity where a region's administering staff is dominated by a clan and the same clan has the authentic and strongest say in the leader's election as well.

In the course of history from Vedic times to Mughals demise, such clans and clan based States were primarily found in the north and west parts of ancient India.
When power like Mauryans and Mughals had integrated majority of India into one centralized unit, the clan based states were politically relegated but maintained their local autonomy and culture, tradition etc. They either reported to the Imperial power or in some cases paid tribute to the foreign rulers like Sakas.
As and when the central power weakened, like after the Mauryans fall, these warrior clans (integral part of the society as they were) re-emerged to prominence with their clan based States.
Some of the examples from Airavat's blog are :
Madra (Jammu-Punjab)
Udumbara (Himachal Pradesh)
Kuluta (Himachal Pradesh)
Trigarta (Himachal-Punjab)
Kuninda (Himachal Pradesh)
Yaudheya (Punjab-Haryana-Rajasthan)
Rajanya (Rajasthan)
Uttambhadra (Rajasthan)
Arjunayan (Rajasthan)
Uddehika (Rajasthan)
Malav (Rajasthan-Madhya Pradesh)
Bharasiva (Madhya Pradesh)

As for the huns and sakas among Rajputs .. it is pure speculation. There is no considerable influence. A very minor influence cannot be ruled out. We can deal with it some other time. Right now I think we're draining this thread off topic.

Request the moderators to move these OT posts to where they fit. I think this discussion doesn't fit into Sikh history.

Regards,
Virendra
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Supratik »

OT. Why did the Rajputs in the Punjab and Sindh convert to Islam in large numbers but in the rest of the subcontinent remained largely Hindu? My hypothesis is that many of the clans in this region were of mixed origin and neo-converts to Hinduism and were opportunistic converts to preserve power and position.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Supratik »

Moved to Raj thread.
member_23651
BRFite
Posts: 317
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by member_23651 »

Supratik wrote:OT. Why did the Rajputs in the Punjab and Sindh convert to Islam in large numbers but in the rest of the subcontinent remained largely Hindu? My hypothesis is that many of the clans in this region were of mixed origin and neo-converts to Hinduism and were opportunistic converts to preserve power and position.
not only Rajputs, but Khatri , Jatt, and lower too converted in lot of numbers. In kashmir, many Kashmiri Pandits converted to Islam. all the Butts are nothing but Bhatts, a brahmin surname. Reason for conversion was coercion, greed, need to escape persecution etc.

what you have stated reason for Sindh Jatt conversion, during invasion of bin qasim, And later rajputs during mughal rule
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Virendra »

Supratik wrote:OT. Why did the Rajputs in the Punjab and Sindh convert to Islam in large numbers but in the rest of the subcontinent remained largely Hindu? My hypothesis is that many of the clans in this region were of mixed origin and neo-converts to Hinduism and were opportunistic converts to preserve power and position.
Wrong hypothesis IMO. Punjab and Sindh are cases of first parts of India to fall to foreign rule.
Not just in terms of rule, but also the provinces of Punjab and Sindh were crushed first and most by majority of the invasions sorties toward medieval India.
Just because someone lies on the terirtorial border doesn't mean he/she is a diluted Hindu or whatever is the core religion. It is the border guy who faces the onslaught first, most frequent and most devastatingly, so lets cut them some slack.

I don't know of any well deveoped clan hierarchies of Rajputs to have existed in Punjab and Sindh on a regular basis; that the question of their en-masse conversion could be raised. If you know of any such clans and their en-masse conversions, please enlighten us with specifics.

One of the very reasons why Punjab saw mass conversions (not of Rajputs), was because there didn't exist any Rajputs clans living in and ruling these areas continously. Lack of long standing chronological rule meant an absence of Imperial tradition as well. Punjab was ruled by Shahi ministers. Once they were wiped off, there was no centralized leadership to keep the flame on and like I said before there were no major resident Rajput clans to keep a decentralized yet driven resistance on either, as there was in Rajputana throughout.
The people who converted were the inhabitants of the Punjab Salt Range, the Potohar plateau's tribes like Gakkahrs, and Peshawar etc.
This started in Mahmud's reign. About his endeavors on conversion Al-Utbi writes boldly - “Islam or death was the alternative that Mahmud placed before the people.”
Many people kept toggling betwee their ancestral faith and Islam depending upon who reigns dominant in the region.
Even uptil Mahmud's reign, many Hindus of Punjab were still Hindus even when enrolled in the Ghaznavid army.
When Ghaznavids and Ghoris were written off, the Khwarzim turks (under Jelaluddin) running from Mongols came to Punjab and fought the local tribes again.
The Hindus of Punjab were draiend of all the resources by this time. They had been fighting under Shahis for decades and had no unity of command or resources after decimation of Shahis. They first submitted to Mahmud, then fought Ghoris.

So when Jelaluddin ran amock in Punjab, Gakkahrs this time made an alliance with the invaders and converted to Islam.
Mongols raids led to a great influx of Turk tribes into north India, shifting the power balance where the Turks could exert themselves better now. Getting respite from Mongols, the Turkish Delhi Sultans were able to convert many other tribes in Punjab so they would never again join hands with Khwarazims, Mongols or other such incoming raiders against delhi Turks.

After Jelaluddin, Timur's and Babar's campaigns also played their part in conversions in Punjab. Babur in his memoirs speaks of the Jats and Gujjars taking shelter in the hills of Rajput Kingdoms toward east and coming down to plunder whenever they saw a chance, before they were eventually converted. This raiding feat was repeated in same region later by Sikhs.
In India the foreign tribes practiced racism by refusing to inter-marry with the Punjabi converts, by not showing them equality in employment opportunities, and by not praying alongside them. The foreign classes were the Ashraf (nobility) while the local converts were called Ajlaf.
The only way for local converts to gain the respect of the foreign classes of muslims was by claiming foreign origin for their own clans. It thus became a fashion for every Indian convert to claim foreign origin such as from Sufi saint, Persian monarchs of the Prophet himself. Once British formally extinguished the last remnants of Mughals in 18th century and took Punjab from Sikhs, the Punjabi muslim converts began claiming descent from Rajputs because a) the latter were allies of British now and b) the latter had laready mark a mark in Indian history by their heroic record, nobility, long standing valor and resistance.

Later when came up the Muslim League, demand for Pakistan and colonial-martial theories on origins of northwest India's population; the Punjabis once again renewed their foreign origin claims.
In the end when Pakistanis were to employ in Oil rich middle eastern economies, this claim was further refined to "Arab descendents".

It is in Punjab and Sindh that the local Hindus had lost political and military power to resist foriegn rule at the earliest and to the fullest, in wider Indian history. Hence it is in Punjab and Sindh that we see the first and major cases of conversions.

As you rightly said in the beginning .. OT all this.

Regards,
Virendra
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Understanding Sikh History-1

Post by Supratik »

While it is true that the region that is now Pak was under Muslim rule for a couple of centuries more than the rest of North India I don't think that explains the demography. Oppression of non-Muslims was no less severe in the rest of India than Punjab, Sindh or Kashmir. On the other hand there are historical records of Rajput clans voluntarily converting to Islam e.g. the Soomro and Samma Rajputs of Sindh who together ruled Sindh for several centuries. The Rajputs of present POK, salt ranges, Seraiki belt, and Sindh have largely converted to Islam along with other groups. Repression while true do not alone explain their conversion. I bring the Rajputs in becoz it has been observed in the medieval period that when the ruling classes convert the masses follow e.g. Iran, Indonesia, etc. There have to be other reasons.
Locked