Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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johneeG
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

ramana wrote:Carl I mean Mahabharata was a way to convey the Vedic dharma thru the ages. Since the events were close to end of Dwapara Yuga people didnt find it odd. But now we question some aspects of it.
Saar,
you are spot on. Listen to the below discourse in Telugu about Aranya Parvam of MB by Saamavedam Shanmukha Sharma. He explains how vedic divinities, yagyas, mantras...etc are embedded in MB by the Vyasa Bhagawan. The essential aim was to convey the Vedic Dharma in an easy and entertaining way for the people of Kali.
http://www.saamavedam.org/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=55

Both Ramayana and Mahabharatha were written for the purpose of conveying Vedic Dharma. Srimadh Ramayana is called Vedopabrahmanam and Mahabharatha is called Panchama Veda. They are authored such that the listener/reader acquires the merit of performing/worshipping vedic rites/mantras/divinities.

Even in MB, it is again and again emphasized that merely reading MB will burn the sins and confer good karma.

I'll write about Jarasandha Vadha later. But, prima facie, I dont see any connection between Jarasandha Vadha and exile of Pandavas. In brief, Jarasandha's killing paved the way for Yuddhishtira's Emperor-hood. And exile dragged Him down from that exalted position.

About the slaughter at the end of Dwapara Yuga: It seems there is a great war/slaughter/culling at the end of each Yuga.

MB is essentially a war between Gods(Devas) and Demons(Asuras) in human field.

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About Kings not having any divinity according to Hinduism:
I think Hinduism says that King has a portion of Indra in him. I think the reason Hinduism did not fall prey to excessive stress on 'divine right' was because there were other concepts in Hinduism to balance out this factor. I think this is the real feature of Hinduism. Hinduism is a comprehensive system for human society. And precisely for this reason, various concepts are laid out. And choice is left to the people. These various concepts balance out each other and stop any extreme. A simple example is Gyana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga. And since, there is freedom and choice, people do not feel compelled. Thus, they can choose the concepts that suit their nature.

I agree with your views about Vedic system being far and wide in the past. And I think it is from this(Vedic) source that all these concepts(like divine right,...etc) have been lifted. However, they seem to be parts and not whole. And in due course, they must have been further customized.
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I think Abhishek Sharma ji raised this question:
Why Bhishma, Drona, ...etc did not intervene at the time of Draupadi disrobing? And why they sided with Duryodhana in war?

Some reasons have already been given by others. In addition to that, it seems demons(Rakshasas) had possessed Bhishma, Drona, Karna, ...etc. And so, even Bhishma remained spectator during disrobing. And later, they all fought on the side of Duryodhana. This info was given to Duryodhana by Demons after his defeat at the hands of Gandharvas.

Vidhura intervened at the time of disrobing of Draupadi. And therefore, he was spared. The others(like Bhishma, Drona,...etc) had to suffer the consequences for not stopping an injustice.

Abhishek Sharma ji,
I agree with you that Narendar Kohli's analysis sounds like WKK. :)

You raise several interesting questions. I wanted answer them, but couldnt for some reason.

Just one brief thing: About why Ganga did not have any human parents when She married Shantanu?
Because Ganga was not born as human being. She was divine. She simple changed Her appearance and married Shantanu. There is a background story about Her marriage and kids with Shantanu. Generally, Himavat is considered the father of Ganga and Parvati is considered Her sister.
-----------

Venkarl Saar,
David Frawley's Astrology of Seers and Ayurvedic Astrology are two good sources for the info you are seeking.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

johneeG wrote: MB is essentially a war between Gods(Devas) and Demons(Asuras) in human field.
:)

For this read Adi Parva where who and who came as who and who in MB. Various Aditeyas came as Pandavas and kings where as Daityas came as Kauravas and other kings.
johneeG wrote: I'll write about Jarasandha Vadha later. But, prima facie, I dont see any connection between Jarasandha Vadha and exile of Pandavas. In brief, Jarasandha's killing paved the way for Yuddhishtira's Emperor-hood. And exile dragged Him down from that exalted position.

About the slaughter at the end of Dwapara Yuga: It seems there is a great war/slaughter/culling at the end of each Yuga.
The seeds of MB war were sown in Sabha Parva. I will give a brief story before posting the translation portions.

After Mayasabha was built, sage Narada visits Dharmaraja. Dharmaraja asks Narada if he has seen any other Sabha like his in this world and other worlds. Then Narada explains that Mayasabha is the best on earth but there are larger and better sabhas in other planes (Varuna Sabha, Yama Sabha, Kubera Sabha, Indra Sabha etc). Narada also explains who attends which Sabha; and only Harischandra is in Indra sabha where as almost all the other kings are in Yama Sabha.

To this Yudhistira asks Narada why only Harischandra is equal to Indra and Narada explains him the true superpowerdom (Rajasuya). And also tells Pandu's wish that Yudhistira does Rajasuya. Dharmaraja asks his brothers and friends who all agree on Dharmaraja's qualifications to be a Chakravarti and how it is the right time to do Rajasuya. Not completely convinced, Dharmaraja seeks Sri Krishna's advise.

And Sri Krishna gives the then political environment of Bharata Varsha

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02014.htm
"Krishna said,--'O great king, thou art a worthy possessor of all the qualities essential for the performance of the Rajasuya sacrifice. Thou knowest everything, O Bharata. I shall, however, still tell thee something. Those persons in the world that now go by the name of Kshatriyas are inferior (in everything) to those Kshatriyas that Rama, the son of Jamadagnya, exterminated.' O lord of the earth, O bull of the Bharata race, thou knowest what form of rule these Kshatriyas, guided by the instructions traditionally handed down from generation to generation, have established amongst their own order, and how far they are competent to perform the Rajasuya sacrifice. The numerous royal lines and other ordinary Kshatriyas all represent themselves to be the descendants of Aila and Ikshwaku.

The descendants of Aila, O king, as, indeed, the kings of Ikshwaku's race, are, know O bull of the Bharata race, each divided into a hundred separate dynasties. The descendants of Yayati and the Bhojas are great, both in extent (number) and accomplishments. O king, these last are to-day scattered all over the earth. And all the Kshatriyas worship the prosperity of those monarchs. At present, however, O monarch, king Jarasandha, overcoming that prosperity enjoyed by their whole order, and overpowering them by his energy hath set himself over the heads of all these kings. And Jarasandha, enjoying the sovereignty over the middle portion of the earth (Mathura), resolved to create a disunion amongst ourselves. O monarch, the king who is the lord paramount of all kings, and in whom alone the dominion of the universe is centered, properly deserves to be called an emperor. And, O monarch,

1. king Sisupala endued with great energy, hath placed himself under his protection and hath become the generalissimo of his forces. And, O great king,

2. the mighty Vaka, the king of the Karushas, capable of fighting by putting forth his powers of illusion, waiteth, upon Jarasandha, as his disciple.

3. There are two others, Hansa and Dimvaka, of great energy and great soul, who have sought the shelter of the mighty Jarasandha.

4. There are others also viz., Dantavakra, Karusha, Karava, Meghavahana, that wait upon Jarasandha.

5. He also that beareth on his head that gem which is known as the most wonderful on earth, that king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka, whose power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, who is called Bhagadatta, and who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his head before Jarasandha, by speech and specially by act. In his heart, however, tied as he is by affection to thee, he regardeth thee as a father regardeth his child.

6. O king, that lord of the earth who hath his dominions on the west and the south, who is thy maternal uncle and who is called Purujit, that brave perpetuator of the Kunti race, that slayer of all foes, is the single king that regardeth thee from affection.

7. He whom I did not formerly slay, that wicked wretch amongst the Chedis, who represented himself in this world as a divine personage and who hath become known also as such, and who always beareth, from foolishness, the signs that distinguish me that king of Vanga Pundra and the Kiratas, endowed with great strength, and who is known on earth by the names of Paundraka and Vasudeva hath also espoused the side of Jarasandha.

8. And, O king of kings, Bhishmaka, the mighty king of the Bhojas--the friend of Indra--the slayer of hostile heroes--who governs a fourth part of the world, who by his learning conquered the Pandyas and the Kratha-Kausikas, whose brother the brave Akriti was like Rama, the son of Jamdagni, hath become a servitor to the king of Magadha. We are his relatives and are, therefore, engaged everyday in doing what is agreeable unto him. But although we regard him much, still he regardeth us not and is engaged in doing us ill. And, O king, without knowing his own strength and the dignity of the race to which he belongeth, he hath placed himself under Jarasandha's shelter at sight of the latter's blazing fame alone.

9. And, O exalted one, the eighteen tribes of the Bhojas, from fear of Jarasandha, have all fled towards the west; so also have the Surasenas, the Bhadrakas, the Vodhas, the Salwas, the Patachchavas, the Susthalas, the Mukuttas, and the Kulindas, along with the Kuntis.

10. And the king of the Salwayana tribe with their brethren and followers; and the southern Panchalas and the eastern Kosalas have all fled to the country of the Kuntis.

11. So also the Matsyas and the Sannyastapadas, overcome with fear, leaving their dominions in the north, have fled into the southern country.

12. And so all the Panchalas, alarmed at the power of Jarasandha, have left their own kingdom and fled in all directions.

13. Some time before, the foolish Kansa, having persecuted the Yadavas, married two of the daughters of Jarasandha. They are called Asti and Prapti and are the sister of Sahadeva. Strengthened by such an alliance, the fool persecuting his relatives gained an ascendency over them all. But by this conduct he earned great obloquy. The wretch also began to oppress the old kings of the Bhoja tribe, but they, to protect themselves from the persecution of their relative, sought our help. Having bestowed upon Akrura the handsome daughter of Ahuka, with Sankarshana as my second I did a service to my relatives, for both Kansa and Sunaman were slain by me assisted by Rama. But after the immediate cause of fear was removed (by the death of Kansa), Jarasandha, his father-in-law, took up arms. Ourselves consisting of the eighteen younger branches of the Yadavas arrived at the conclusion that even if we struck our enemies continually with excellent weapons capable of taking the lives of the foes, we should still be unable to do anything unto him even in three hundred years.

14. He hath two friends that are like unto the immortals, and in point of strength the foremost of all men endued with might. They are called Hansa and Dimvaka who are both incapable of being slain by weapons. The mighty Jarasandha, being united with them, becomes incapable, I think, of being vanquished by even the three worlds. O thou foremost of all intelligent men, this is not our opinion alone but all other kings also are of the same mind. There lived, O monarch, a king of the name of Hansa, who was slain by Rama (Valadeva) after a battle of eighteen days. But, O Bharata, hearing people say that Hansa had been killed, Dimvaka, O king, thought that he could not live without Hansa. He accordingly jumped into the waters of the Yamuna and killed himself. Afterwards when Hansa, the subjugator of hostile heroes, heard that Dimvaka, had killed himself, he went to the Yamuna and jumped into its waters. Then, O bull of the Bharata race, king Jarasandha, hearing that both Hansa and Dimvaka had been killed, returned to his kingdom with an empty heart. After Jarasandha had returned, O slayer of all foes, we were filled with pleasure and continued to live at Mathura. Then the widow of Hansa and the daughter of Jarasandha, that handsome woman with eyes like lotus-petals, grieved at the death of her lord, went unto her father, and repeatedly urged, O Monarch, the king of Magadha, saying,--O slayer of all foes, kill thou the slayer of my husband.--Then, O great king, remembering the conclusion to which we had come of old we became exceedingly cheerless and fled from Mathura. Dividing our large wealth into small portions so as to make each portion easily portable, we fled from fear of Jarasandha, with our cousins and relatives. Reflecting upon everything, we fled towards the west. There is a delightful town towards the west called Kusasthali, adorned by the mountains of Raivata. In that city, O monarch, we took up our abode. We rebuilt its fort and made it so strong that it has become impregnable even to the Gods. And from within it even the women might fight the foe, what to speak of the Yadava heroes without fear of any kind? O slayer of all foes, we are now living in that city. And, O tiger of the Kuru race, considering the inaccessibility of that first of mountains and regarding themselves as having already crossed the fear of Jarasandha, the descendants of Madhu have become exceedingly glad. Thus, O king, though possessed of strength and energy, yet from the oppressions of Jarasandha we have been obliged to repair to the mountains of Gomanta, measuring three Yojanas in length. Within each yojana have been established one and twenty posts of armed men. And at intervals of each yojana are hundred gates with arches which are defended by valourous heroes engaged in guarding them. And innumerable Kshatriyas invincible in war, belonging to the eighteen younger branches of the Yadavas, are employed in defending these works. In our race, O king, there are full eighteen thousand brothers and cousins. Ahuka hath had a hundred sons, each of whom is almost like a god (in prowess), Charudeshna with his brother Chakradeva, Satyaki, myself, Valadeva the son of Rohini, and my son Samva who is equal unto me in battle--these seven, O king are Atirathas. Besides these, there are others, O king, whom I shall presently name. They are Kritavarman, Anadhrishti, Samika, Samitinjaya, Kanka, Sanku :wink: and Kunti. These seven are Maharathas. There are also two sons of Andhakabhoja, and the old king himself. Endued with great energy these are all heroes, each mighty as the thunderbolt. These Maharathas, choosing the middle country, are now living amongst the Vrishnis. O thou best of the Bharata line, thou alone art worthy of being an emperor. It behoveth thee, O Bharata, to establish thy empire over all the Kshatriyas.

But this is my judgment, O king, that thou wilt not be able to celebrate the Rajasuya sacrifice as long as the mighty Jarasandha liveth. By him have been immured in his hillfort numerous monarchs, like a lion that hath deposited the slain bodies of mighty elephants within a cave of the king of mountains. O slayer of all enemies, king Jarasandha, desirous of offering in sacrifice hundred monarchs, adored for his fierce ascetic penances the illustrious god of gods, the lord of Uma.It is by this means that the kings of the earth have been vanquished by Jarasandha. And, O best of monarchs, he hath by that means been able to fulfil the vow he had made relative to his sacrifice. By defeating the kings with their troops and bringing all of them as captives into this city, he had swelled its crowds enormously. We also, O king, from fear of Jarasandha, at one time had to leave Mathura and fly to the city of Dwaravati. If, O great king, thou desirest to perform this sacrifice, strive to release the kings confined by Jarasandha, as also to compass his death. O son of the Kuru race, otherwise this undertaking of thine can never be completed. O thou foremost of intelligent men if the Rajasuya is to be performed by thee, you must do this in this way and not otherwise. This, O king, is my view (on the matter). Do, O sinless one, as thou thinkest. Under these circumstances, O king, having reflected upon everything, taking note of causes, tell us what thou thyself thinkest proper."
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

RamaY, Van Buitenen writes that the all the sabhas mentioned by Narada are in the four cardinal directions with Yama being in right below and Brahma right above. This would situate the Mayasabha in the terrestial region and need an acknoweldgement by conducting the Rajasuya Yagna.

He also says the concept of space was like right pyramid with the base being an octogon (for the ashta dik or compass points) the apex in Brahmalok and the reflected below into Yamalok.


This would situate the Mayasabha in the here world which needs the Rajasuya Yagna to get its consecretion.

Can we correlate the directions or diks with the four sabhas mentioned?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Venkarl »

Thanks a lot for the reference JohneeG Saar. I'll look into it.

Added Later:
And I've looked into it. I've downloaded the Pdf file of the suggested material. Gemology isn't covered in it. Used the search function in okular for "Gemology" and all Gems. No results. I wanted to know how a particular gem is associated with a Graha. Never-mind, thanks for responding.

Regards.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by member_20317 »

Ramana ji it is really strange how people can have almost the same thoughts in the recesses of their minds without having interacted much, based on their first hand experience.
ramana wrote:Carl, Harvard is Harvard Divinity College and then everything else. Same with Oxford and Cambridge!!!
When I used to read Finance & management accounting, ever so often I used to feel it was all mere theology shorn of any practicality. Guys those days could be gold medalist without ever making any successful investment decision, which to my mind those days seemed to be the equivalent of say a Medical student able to treat Sardi-Jukam or an engineering student being able to do some basic Itvity stuff. Later on in life I saw so many people who had nothing to do with these fancy theories doing better at practical applications entirely based on their experience.

ramana wrote:One interesting thing is Hindus never bought the divine rights of the King unlike elsewhere.
Ramayana was the epitome of this thought. Abhi to saala everybody is a freedom fighter, fighting to get their kingdom for free.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Viv ji

On putting Draupadi as a bet in gambling

P.S: This is my intellect working here; so all faults are mine ;) TIFWIW

Someone already presented the logic that Dharmaraja has a vrata (owe) he would not reject an invitation for war or gambling. So he went to play dice with Kauravas. And Duryodhana wanted Sakuni to play on his behalf while he supplies the money.

And we all know what happened after that. Then the game came to betting of entire kingdom. Please read the quote (2) I posted below. Can it be considered as betting people when Dharmaraja bet his entire kingdom in the game of dice? Why did he separate Brahmanas from that?

Somehow people miss the point that Dharmaraja bet his grown-up brothers before bet his wife, Draupadi.

In Hindu tradition the eldest son of the family has the same responsibility/authority/ownership on the family as the father himself, especially after the father's demise. That is why the tradition is to put the eldest son's name in all family invitations (like marriages) even today. Even if I become old and was inviting people to my grand-grand-son's wedding, the tradition demands that the invitation must be on my elder brother's name as long as he is alive (it goes to my next eldest brother and so on). It is a different matter that, nowadays the bride and bridegroom are printing marriage invitation cards by themselves (I cordially invite...etc) . The sad part is that this is the generation that questions Dharmaraja's ownership over his own brothers and wife.

The next thing is betting his wife Draupadi. The issue gets complicated because Draupadi is wife of all Pandavas, not Dharmaraja's alone. Irrespective of that fact, Draupadi is Dharmaraja's wife (from his perspective). The next question is, can the wife be the property of the husband? Is it moral?

Before answering this question let us restudy the context here. A game of dice is happening and both sides are betting property. As part of the process the both sides bet Cows, Horses, Armies, Kingdoms. All these were bet on the "understanding/opinion" that they were property.

Can a living being be property? Of course, even today we consider the cows, farms (and all the living beings in that farm) as property (poultry farms, animal farms etc). Isn't a modern corporation take over is nothing but the purchase of immovable, movable assets along with the employee base? Is it considered as slave-trade? {I know the next question - but people can leave the company if they don't want. What will be the value of say, Infosys, without all its employees? and secondly who said the Pandavas did not honor Dharmaraja's ownership?}

If one reads the points I quoted below, one can clearly see that Dharmaraja bet his brothers and his wife; considering them as property. Not as slaves. The tacit understanding is that these people will be used for economic purposes only and not as slaves {That is why my previous question - How many times a servant was disrobed in the royal assembly of Kauravas?}.

Then finally can a husband bet his wife? In modern times (especially in western countries) when a person files bankruptcy, his spouse's properties are also reviewed (For qualification) and are included in the process if they qualify.

In Bharatiya culture there is no two different people after marriage. The wife and husband are treated as one entity. The husband's success is the wife's and his fall hers. There is hardly an exception to this understanding. When Dharmaraja bet all his brothers and himself, it means Draupadi's all husbands became servants of Kauravas.

There is no wealth for/of Draupadi outside Pandavas. By virtue of being their wife, Draupadi too is a servant of Kauravas whether she is won separately or not.

And as long as a single husband of Draupadi is free, she still has her freedom. That is why, IMHO, Dharmaraja bet himself before Draupadi.

1 wrote: "Yudhishthira said,--'It would seem then that some of the most desperate and terrible gamblers always depending upon deceit are there. This whole universe, however, is at the will of its Maker, under the control of fate. It is not free. O learned one, I do not desire, at the command of king Dhritarashtra to engage myself in gambling. The father always wisheth to benefit his son. Thou art our master, O Vidura. Tell me what is proper for us. Unwilling as I am to gamble, I will not do so, if the wicked Sakuni doth not summon me to it in the Sabha? If, however, he challengeth me, I will never refuse. For that, as settled, is my eternal vow."

"Yudhishthira said,--'Summoned, I do not withdraw. This is my established vow. And, O king, Fate is all powerful. We all are under the control of Destiny. With whom in this assembly am I to play? Who is there that can stake equally with me? Let the play begin.'

"Duryodhana said,--'O monarch, I shall supply jewels and gems and every kind of wealth. And it is for me that this Sakuni, my uncle, will play.'

"Yudhishthira said,--'Gambling for one's sake by the agency of another seemeth to me to be contrary to rule. Thou also, O learned one, will admit this. If, however, thou art still bent on it, let the play begin.'"
2 wrote:Yudhishthira said,--'I have my city, the country, land, the wealth of all dwelling therein except of the Brahmanas, and all those persons themselves except Brahmanas still remaining to me. With this wealth, O king, I will play with thee.'
3 wrote:Yudhishthira, said--'I alone, the eldest of all my brothers and dear unto them, am still unwon. Won by thee, I will do what he that is won will have to do.'"
4 wrote:Vaisampayana continued,--"Having said this, Sakuni, well-skilled at dice, spoke unto all the brave kings present there of his having won, one after another, all the Pandavas. The son of Suvala then, addressing Yudhishthira said,--'O king, there is still one stake dear to thee that is still unwon. Stake thou Krishna, the princess of Panchala. By her, win thyself back.'

"Yudhishthira said,--'With Draupadi as stake, who is neither short nor tall, neither spare nor corpulent, and who is possessed of blue curly locks, I will now play with thee. Possessed of eyes like the leaves of the autumn lotus, and fragrant also as the autumn lotus, equal in beauty unto her (Lakshmi) who delighteth in autumn lotuses, and unto Sree herself in symmetry and every grace she is such a woman as a man may desire for wife in respect of softness of heart, and wealth of beauty and of virtues. Possessed of every accomplishment and compassionate and sweet-speeched, she is such a woman as a man may desire for wife in respect of her fitness for the acquisition of virtue and pleasure and wealth. Retiring to bed last and waking up first, she looketh after all down to the cowherds and the shepherds. Her face too, when covered with sweat, looketh as the lotus or the jasmine. Of slender waist like that of the wasp, of long flowing locks, of red lips, and body without down, is the princess of Panchala. O king, making the slender-waisted Draupadi, who is even such as my stake, I will play with thee, O son of Suvala.'"

Vaisampayana continued,--'When the intelligent king Yudhishthira the just has spoken thus,--'Fie!' 'Fie!' were the words that were uttered by all the aged persons that were in the assembly. And the whole conclave was agitated, and the kings who were present there all gave way to grief. And Bhishma and Drona and Kripa were covered with perspiration. And Vidura holding his head between his hands sat like one that had lost his reason. He sat with face downwards giving way to his reflections and sighing like a snake. But Dhritarashtra glad, at heart, asked repeatedly,

[paragraph continues] 'Hath the stake been won?' 'Hath the stake been won?' and could not conceal his emotions. Karna with Dussassana and others laughed aloud, while tears began to flow from the eyes of all other present in the assembly. And the son of Suvala, proud of success and flurried with excitement and repeating. Thou hast one stake, dear to thee, etc. said,--'Lo! I have won' and took up the dice that had been cast."
5 wrote:"Draupadi said,--'The great ordainer of the world hath, indeed, ordained so. Happiness and misery pay their court to both the wise and unwise. Morality, however, it hath been said, is the one highest object in the world. If cherished, that will certainly dispense blessings to us. Let not that morality now abandon the Kauravas. Going back to those that are present in that assembly, repeat these my words consonant with morality. I am ready to do what those elderly and virtuous persons conversant with morality will definitely tell me.

Vaisampayana continued,--"The Suta, hearing these words of Yajnaseni, came back to the assembly and repeated the words of Draupadi. But all sat with faces downwards, uttering not a word, knowing the eagerness and resolution of Dhritarashtra's son.

"Yudhishthira, however, O bull of the Bharata race, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent a trusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in one piece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her season having come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly. And that intelligent messenger, O king, having gone to Draupadi's abode with speed, informed her of the intentions of Yudhishthira.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

And note that Dharamraja staked Draupadi after having lost his brothers and then himself. And it was upon son of Suvala's suggestion that Draupadi is not in the pool.
The son of Suvala then, addressing Yudhishthira said,--'O king, there is still one stake dear to thee that is still unwon. Stake thou Krishna, the princess of Panchala. By her, win thyself back.
So in Shakuni's mind Draupadi was not property already won with the Pandavas. She had individual rights.

Secondly when Dharmaraja was staking her after his having lost himself was he obeying the master's voice or did he have free will?

So again if she had individual rights how can the husband stake her in the game?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Yayavar »

RamaYji, thanks for the detailed note and spending the time to go over the question. I've been away due to rozi-roti pressures and only occasionally looking into BRF in the last week. I'm not so much exercised on why he bet himself or Draupadi or took it has his right to bet away an entire kingdom to a foe, but originally was questioning the degree of 'moral compass' that could be attached to the characters in that Sabha. I've started on the original (on the net). The various tellings do edit quite a bit including on Karna and others. However, the story is very much the same. I'll share my thoughts after I've read more.

JohneeG: thanks for affirming the meaning of Duryodhana. I had speculated as much but was looking for confirmation.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

By betting he ensured the legal question is raised and leads to the second round. If he hadn't who knows what would be her future under the lust-filled Kauravas who all were desirous of her.
The key pointer is Draupadi's relationship afterwards with him.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote: The key pointer is Draupadi's relationship afterwards with him.
This is the key in any issue be it
Rama Vs Vali
Rama Vs Ravana
Ekalavya Vs Drona
Karna Vs whoever
Dharmaraja Vs Pandavas
Dharmaraja Vs Draupadi
...
...
etc.,

For a reader the epic themselves offer the answer. It is the so-called (sic) seculars who see a given action at a given time thru a colored eye.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

Venkarl wrote:Thanks a lot for the reference JohneeG Saar. I'll look into it.

Added Later:
And I've looked into it. I've downloaded the Pdf file of the suggested material. Gemology isn't covered in it. Used the search function in okular for "Gemology" and all Gems. No results. I wanted to know how a particular gem is associated with a Graha. Never-mind, thanks for responding.

Regards.
Which one did you search? I just glanced at 'Ayurvedic Astrology' and found some related info there starting from pg 107.

------

About the legality of Draupadi's staking by Dharmaraja:
There are several sides to it.
-Draupadi was not the private property of Dharmaraja. She was the wife of all the 5 brothers. He did not consult any of them. The counter argument would be, He did not consult them on the previous stakes(of combined property) as well. Further, none of His brothers denied Dharmaraja's authority to stake Draupadi.

-Yuddhishtira already lost Himself. So, what is the status of Draupadi. Is she independent or she is also lost because Yuddhishtira lost? Shakuni wants Yuddhishtira to stake Draupadi separately, so we can deduce that in his opinion Draupadi is still unwon. But, maybe Shakuni was just making sure that nothing is left to chance. So, maybe he wanted to make sure he won Draupadi instead of hoping that her slavery is assured given the slavery of Pandavas.

-Yuddhishtira lost himself and is basically the slave who has to do as ordered. He was ordered to stake Draupadi and He did. Such a deal goes against the basic sense because both the sides to a deal must be voluntary and independent. Otherwise, the deal is null and void.

Infact, the same answer can be given to the question as to why Pandavas did not stop the disrobement of Draupadi? Because they were slaves at that time and if they defied their owners/bosses(who happened to be Kauravas), then they would be charged with immorality. So, the Pandavas had to depend on the King and his courtiers for justice. The same was the case of Yuddhishtira in staking Draupadi.

The next set of questions are, why did not the elders present in the court object?
-Dhritarashtra was not going to object. He was delighted that Pandavas were being won over without any fight. But, he was told by Vidura that the act of disrobement will definitely lead to the death of Dhritarashtra's sons. So, Dhritarashtra tried to rectify the matter and pacify the Pandavas.

-Vidura, the minister, objected to the whole idea from the begining to the end. He was, therefore, spared any punishment.

-Bhishma was specifically asked by Draupadi to clarify his stand. He said that he was confused. Ultimately, his reasoning was that if Dharmaraja had done something, then it must be just and correct. So, if Dharmaraja has staked Draupadi, then it must be correct even if it appears as wrong. Later, Demons disclose that Bhishma was possessed by the demons, so his thinking was muddled.

-Drona generally follows the lead of Bhishma. Because Bhishma himself did not object. Drona also kept quiet.

-Kripacharya also is lead by Bhishma's views and Drona's views. So, he too kept quiet.

-Ashwattaman seems to neutral in this episode with no views. One can assume that he was not against the disrobing.

-Karna was an enthusiastic partner. He was, perhaps, avenging for the insult during swayamwaram of Draupadi.

-Lord Sri Krishna saved Draupadi from humiliation. And later declares that, in His view, Kauravas were dead the day they tried to disrobe Draupadi. So, in Lord Sri Krishna's view, Kauravas(specially Duryodhana and Dhusshasana) were deadmen walking.

Sri Krishna also makes it clear on several occasions that the entire game of dice was unfair and Pandavas were cheated.

---------
I remember reading that Duryodhana(or someone from Kaurava side) asks the 4 Pandavas to dissociate themselves from actions of Dharmaraja by saying that Dharmaraja has no authority to stake the combined property of brothers(including Draupadi). Duryodhana promises, that if the Pandavas do that, then they can have all they will be freed and the property returned. But none of the Pandavas do that. They agree that Dharmaraja has every authority on them. They also understand Dharmraja is flawless. And they acknowledge His authority.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Venkarl »

Thanks JohneeG. I've checked Astrology of Seers which did'nt give me any results. But Ayurvedic Astrology is a treasure trove. Thanks again Sir.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

JohneeG garu,

Slave is a wrong word. Sevaka is the Indic word that describes the state of Pandavas.

Further, I posted long time ago the difference between
- Dharmic life that appears Dharmic
- Dharmic act appearing Adharmic
- Adharmic act appearing Dharmic and
- Adharmic act appearing Adharmic

One must contemplate on this classification...

On the duplicity of Dice game, refer AranyaParva where Durvasa (IIRC) teaches Dharmaraja the Aksha-Vidya (Tells the story of Nala) so he cannot be deceived again by Sakuni.

That is why the Dushta-Chatusthayam did not call for another round of Dice.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Ramanaji, Re- posting

RamaY wrote:In the foreword for 'Sabha Parva' (of Sri Kappagantula Lakshmana Sastry's Verbatim Translation of Veda Vyasa Maha Bharata) Sri Tirumala Ramachandra gave some interesting insights...
- Vedas are compiled over many periods, many regions, and many societies.

- They start from the period/place of six months day and six months night {polar regions?} to the days of Vedic Karmas.

- Per Scientific Dating of Mahabharata War of Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak Rigveda is compiled between ~25,000BC to ~5000BC.

- The war of 10 races (kingdoms/societies/cities?) of Sudasa (son of Divo'dasa) mentioned in Rigveda - happened for over 5 decades - could be the Maha Bharata war that is compiled later / per Sri Vashista Ganapati Muni (Kavyakantha Ganapati Sastry - A sishya of Sri Ramana Maharshi)

- If we take the evolution process it is fair for Veda's to start with "Ushassuktam - praise of morning" than Agni rukkus. Probably Vyasa put praises of Agni at the beginning of Veda to denote the importance of Yajna's of his period.

- Per Dr. Padmakar Vishnuvartak Mahabharata war happened between 5562 BC October 16th to November 2nd.

- :eek: One of pyramids in Egypt has the translation of two Bhagavadgita slokas. These are related to rebirth.

Mamaivamso' jivaloke' jeevabhuta: sanatana:
Mana: shashtha nimdriyaani prakrutisthani karshati
sareeram yadavapnoti yachchaa pyutkramatiswara:
gruhitvaitani samyaati vaayurgamdhamivasayat


15th chapter 7 and 8th slokas

Page 21 of Dr. Padmakar's book mentioned above
(All the life forms in this universe are my aspects. Due to the material life they are attracting mind and senses and are going thru this friction. Like air absorbs various scents, this soul attracts various life-centric experiences and take them from one body (one life to another) to another. Thus he takes on body and leaves it before taking another body)

- Indian society knew about Pyramids. This word transformed into Pyramidos - midos - idak - Edook.

Aranya Parva 190.69 says thus

What is this craze! People are falling in their values. They are worshiping burial-buildings instead of Devatas (natural and spiritual forces)

Based on this, some people argue that Mahabharata was written after Buddhas (due to Samadhis). But in reality building of Sthupas started only after the establishment of Mahayana (few centuries after Buddha).

- Buddhists and Jains wrote their versions of Ramayana and Mahabharata so they can establish themselves in Bharatiya societies. We started to see this trend with Christain missionaries - I have a christian version of Purusha Sukta. The first person in this trend if Vimala Suri. He translated Ramayana with the name "Pa Vu Ma Cha Ri Vu". This lead to various versions of Ramayana in many countries.
{Ramanaji - could this be the reason for 300 Ramayanas?} To fight this phenomenon books like "Raghuvamsa" were written.

- Jains first translated Mahabharata in to Kannada as Vikramarka Viyaya, and Gada Yuddha.

- Versions of MB
V1.0 - 8000 slokas - Name JAYA
V2.0 - 25000 slokas - Name Samhita (written by Vaisampayana)
V3.0 - 100,000 slokas - Name Mahabharata

- The first translation of V1.0 MB is "Bharata Savitri". The timing of this is not clear. In the writer's opinion this was the first translation of MB to fight Jaina/Buddha efforts.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

"And after the citizens had ceased following the Pandavas, Vidura, conversant with all the dictates of morality, desirous of awakening the eldest of the Pandavas (to a sense of his dangers), addressed him in these words. The learned Vidura, with the jargon (of the Mlechchhas), addressed the learned Yudhishthira who also was conversant with the same jargon, in the words of the Mlechchha tongue, so as to be unintelligible to all except udhishthira. He said, 'He that knoweth the schemes his foes contrive in accordance with the dictates of political science, should, knowing them, act in such a way as to avoid all danger. He that knoweth that there are sharp weapons capable of cutting the body though not made of steel, and understandeth also the means of warding them off, can never be injured by foes. He liveth who protecteth himself by the knowledge that neither the consumer of straw and wood nor the drier of the dew burneth the inmates of a hole in the deep woods. The blind man seeth not his way: the blind man hath no knowledge of direction. He that hath no firmness never acquireth prosperity. Remembering this, be upon your guard. The man who taketh a weapon not made of steel (i.e., an inflammable abode) given him by his foes, can escape from fire by making his abode like unto that of a jackal (having many outlets). By wandering a man may acquire the knowledge of ways, and by the stars he can ascertain the direction, and he that keepeth his five (senses) under control can never be oppressed y his enemies.'

"Thus addressed, Pandu's son, Yudhishthira the just replied unto Vidura, that foremost of all learned men, saying, 'I have understood thee.' Then Vidura, having instructed the Pandavas and followed them (thus far), walked around them and bidding them farewell returned to his own abode.

When the citizens and Bhishma and Vidura had all ceased following, Kunti approached Yudhishthira and said, 'The words that Kshattri said unto thee in the midst of many people so indistinctly as if he did not say anything, and thy reply also to him in similar words and voice, we have not understood. If it is not improper; for us to know them I should then like to hear everything that had passed between him and thee.'

"Yudhishthira replied, 'The virtuous Vidura said unto me that we should know that the mansion (for our accommodation at Varanavata) hath been built of inflammable materials. He said unto me, 'The path of escape too shall not be unknown to thee,'--and further,--'Those that can control their senses can acquire the sovereignty of the whole world.'--The reply that I gave unto Vidura was, 'I have understood thee.'\

***

'A friend of Vidura's, well-skilled in mining, coming unto the Pandavas, addressed them in secret, saying, 'I have been sent by Vidura and am a skilful miner. I am to serve the Pandavas. Tell me what I am to do for ye. From the trust he reposeth in me Vidura hath said unto me, 'Go thou unto the Pandavas and accomplish thou their good. What shall I do for you? Purochana will set fire to the door of thy house on the fourteenth night of this dark fortnight. To burn to death those tigers among men, the Pandavas, with their mother, is the design of that wicked wretch, the son of Dhritarashtra. O son of Pandu, Vidura also told thee something in the Mlechchha tongue to which thou also didst reply in same language. I state these particulars as my credentials.'

***

'About this time, the learned Vidura had sent into those woods a man of pure character and much trusted by him. This person going to where he had been directed, saw the Pandavas with their mother in the forest employed in a certain place in measuring the depth of a river. The design that the wicked Duryodhana had formed had been, through his spies, known to Vidura of great intelligence, and, therefore, he had sent that prudent person unto the Pandavas. Sent by Vidura unto them, he showed the Pandavas on the sacred banks of the Ganga a boat with engines and flags, constructed by trusted artificers and capable of withstanding wind and wave and endued with the speed of the tempest or of thought. He then addressed the Pandavas in these words to show that he had really been sent by Vidura, 'O Yudhishthira, he said, "listen to these words the learned Vidura had said (unto thee) as a proof of the fact that I come from him. Neither the consumer of straw and the wood nor the drier of dew ever burneth the inmates of a hole in the forest. He escapeth from death who protecteth himself knowing this, etc.' By these credentials know me to be the person who has been truly sent by Vidura and to be also his trusted agent. Vidura, conversant with everything, hath again said, 'O son of Kunti, thou shalt surely defeat in battle Karna, and Duryodhana with his brothers, and Sakuni.' This boat is ready on the waters, and it will glide pleasantly thereon, and shall certainly bear you all from these regions!'

"Then beholding those foremost of men with their mother pensive and sad he caused them to go into the boat that was on the Ganga, and accompanied them himself. Addressing them again, he said, 'Vidura having smelt your heads and embraced you (mentally), hath said again that in commencing your auspicious journey and going alone you should never be careless.' "Saying these words unto those heroic princes, the person sent by Vidura took those bulls among men over to the other side of the Ganga in his boat. And having taken them over the water and seen them all safe on the opposite bank, he uttered the word 'Jaya' (victory) to their success and then left them and returned to the place whence he had come. "The illustrious Pandavas also sending through that person some message to Vidura, began, after having crossed the Ganga, to proceed with haste and in great secrecy.'"


***

"Meanwhile the Pandavas endued with great strength with their mother forming a company of six going out of the town of Varanavata arrived at the banks of the Ganga. They then speedily reached the opposite bank aided by the strength of the boatmen's arms, the rapidity of the river's current, and a favourable wind. Leaving the boat, they proceeded in the southern direction finding their way in the dark by the light of the stars. After much suffering they at last reached, O king, a dense forest.

Frequently swimming across streams difficult of being crossed, the Pandavas disguised themselves on their way from fear of the sons of Dhritarashtra. And Bhima carried on his shoulder his illustrious mother of delicate sensibilities along the uneven banks of rivers. Towards the evening, O bull of Bharata's race, Bhima (bearing his brothers and mother on his back) reached a terrible forest where fruits and roots and water were scarce and which resounded with the terrible cries of birds and beasts.

***

Then Hidimba vadha

***

'Those mighty car-warriors, the heroic Pandavas, then went, O king, from forest to forest killing deer and many animals (for their food). And in the course of their wanderings they saw the countries of the Matsyas, the Trigartas, the Panchalas and then of the Kichakas, and also many beautiful woods and lakes therein. And they all had matted locks on their heads and were attired in barks of trees and the skins of animals. Indeed, with Kunti in their company those illustrious heroes were attired in the garbs of ascetics. And those mighty car-warriors sometimes proceeded in haste, carrying their mother on their backs; and sometimes they proceeded in disguise, and sometimes again with great celerity. And they used to study the Rik and the other Vedas and also all the Vedangas as well as the sciences of morals and politics. And the Pandavas, conversant with the science of morals, met, in course of their
wanderings their grandfather (Vyasa). And saluting the illustrious Krishna-Dwaipayana, those chastisers of enemies, with their mother, stood before him with joined hands.'
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

It is very interesting that the characters of the Mahabharata spoke Mlechchha tongues. This was done probably as a means to decipher the other that existed at the time (either Iranian yavanas or Tocharians distinct and separate from uttara-kurus) after Kalayavana's unsuccessful attack and demise. So its something that got adapted quickly and indirectly thanks to Sri Krishna's actions.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Klaus wrote:It is very interesting that the characters of the Mahabharata spoke Mlechchha tongues. This was done probably as a means to decipher the other that existed at the time (either Iranian yavanas or Tocharians distinct and separate from uttara-kurus) after Kalayavana's unsuccessful attack and demise. So its something that got adapted quickly and indirectly thanks to Sri Krishna's actions.

Klaus, It could be proto Paisachi !

Try to map all the areas which Paisachi is supposed to be spoken.

Any way how is the project coming up?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

Ramana ji, little updates keep getting added on everytime. I'd like to make it as comprehensive as possible. Prof Kazanas also has a mass movement out of Kasmira thesis, which he is getting field tested through his good network of anthropologists.

It is either proto or post-Paisachi. Another aspect is a pre-epic link language with Kasmira as a centre of excellence and learning and Kasyapa as the Drona of this land and era (based on RamaY's article on assigning a large area to each saptarishi and rshi). This link language could have given rise to Tocharian, Yupik, Samoyedic and others (am leaving out Uralic as it has other sentiments present).

Which is why I'm really concerned about the impact of this new fangled proposal of across yellow-sea trade with Pakis is going to do w.r.t all these budding field projects.
Last edited by Klaus on 11 Feb 2012 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

What is the identity of the mysterious Uttara-Kurus? Were they Vedics? Their language, etc was the same as India? Or different?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

^^^ There is a post on this very thread (or the Distorted History thread) where a conversation between Pandu and Kunti is chronicled. Paternal surrogacy as a practice in Uttara Kuru is discussed.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

ramana wrote:
Try to map all the areas which Paisachi is supposed to be spoken.
Ramana ji, your supposition that Paisachi could be a Mlechchha tongue opens a few windows for me. I wish to chronicle attitudes of Indics towards Mlechchhas through the ancient times (say upto the advent of Buddhism in 18th century BC). I suspect that this supposition hides a very holistic set of attitudes which may mirror how the people in IVC or the Epics viewed and treated the other.

My locus standi is slightly different. IMO Paisachi was a link language between Indic proper and Mlechchha proper, with Uttara Kuru being Bharath Minor (term borrowed from Shiv).

The travesty of the Buddhist and post-Islamic invasion times is that a culture of incorporation became a culture of coping.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

in the Mahabharat how and why does Yudhhistir& Vidur learn Mlechha language?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

^^^ 1. Kripacharya. Recall that just before the start of the final war, Yudhisthira seeks blessings as he stands in front of Kripa's car. Kripa states that there is something that he needs to impart as a final lesson to Dharmaraja, they converse and discuss in front of the entire Kaurava army. I suspect the language used would be foreign to the others present there.

2. Vidura's mother: Although she was a sevak mahila, she was wise as per Veda-Vyasa's own testimony. This was the reason she could take in Veda-Vyasa's rustic and un-groomed form and not be alarmed unlike Ambika and Ambalika.

Kripacharya and his sister were abandoned at birth although the author knows that they were born to a Brahmin, he does not indicate whether King Santanu had this fore-knowledge or not.

Handpicked people of high intellect from the underclass were educated in foreign languages and behaviors to form part of the indigenous intelligence apparatus. These people might have spent a few years in the buffer areas learning Mlechchha and link languages.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sushupti »

Is a return to Vedic lifestyle viable today?


Those who adopt a posture of "lets return to the ideal past" must address the following problem.

The subcontinent's population has grown 100 fold since the classic vedic period. Today's combined South Asia is 1.5 billion whereas in early 1900s Gandhi and the Brits refer to a 300 million population. Thats 5 times growth in a century! If you go back to early British period the writings estimate a subcontinent of 200 million population. Historians have estimated 100 million for the early Mughal period. If you take this back in time, another 2000 years, its likely that the entire subcontinent had no more than 10 million to 20 million population.

Is the classical Vedic lifestyle scalable to support a population density that is 100 times larger? If so, how? We cannot skip this issue and assume without some rigor applied to establish the case. For instance we must inquire into the following with open minds:
Deforestation has resulted due to pop density explosion. In the Vedic era the subcontinent was covered with forests. Not today.
Can 1.5 billion (soon to be 2 billion) afford cremations with the same per capita usage of wood as in vedic times? How about wood burnt in yagna, use of butter, other materials - can you give us an Excel model to show what quantities would be involved if 2 billion people followed these rituals that are very intensive users of natural resources?
What about farming then and the intensive farming techniques required today to support the pop density we have? Is the use of chemicals, genetically modified plants for better yields, etc being forced upon us simply due to pop scale? Is modern transportation, storage, refrigeration, food processing, etc becoming the only way out?
Vedic era did not have to worry about EFFICIENT USAGE OF NATURAL RESOURCES because the population was tiny and nature was immense and virtually limitless. This is not a valid assumption now.
Second assumption then was the absence of aggressive competition from outsiders with an expansionist agenda to capture market share in any way possible.
These two realities - over population in a finite planet and external competition - are seldom factored in by our dharmic leaders today. This is caused by their lack of reversing the gaze to understand the world dynamics from our viewpoint. They stopped doing purva paksha after the "victory" over Buddhists, and turned into parrots chanting old purva paksha debates and other slogans old and new. Many also turned blind and disinterested in real world matters like the one mentioned above.

Believe me, as someone who spends a lot of serious thinking time daily on such matters, I would love to develop practical solutions to today's dilemmas facing humanity. Thats what my Apps programs are trying to do with the help of third party experts.

So the point is that mere dismissal of western civilization does not by itself establish the viability of dharmic civilization for today's world situation.

Maybe a very large scale population reduction over the next century is becoming unavoidable. But that is not easily achieved due to the enormous politics at stake - each subgroup in a fragmented society wants its numbers to grow. So does humanity face vicious cycles from which a solution has not yet been proposed?

I am not looking for chauvinism, slogans, blame game, etc. but serious inputs.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RajivMalh ... ssage/2208
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svinayak »

Being vegetarian a vedic practice itself allows India to sustain itself for long term even with the large population.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Not sure, if the questions are thought through correctly. The cremation doesn't happen in one swoop, where 1.5 billion have to be cremated in a short time. Wood is renewable resource, if tended properly.

The annual culling of trees that occurs during december in US, how does that compare against the concern? A relative comparison of annual event versus that could occur in 60-80 year cycle, of human life span would bring perspective.
As far as butter, etc., it is bogus. It is like saying the amount of cheese consumed on Superbowl day (pizzas - there was a comparison if pizzas were laid next to each other, it would cover the perimeter of US due to that single day consumption) could it be sustained? It is not only sustained, but done year after year.
Consumption number for american is 32.
for kenyan it is 0.6
for India it is closer to unity.
So what gives?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

Acharya wrote:Being vegetarian a vedic practice itself allows India to sustain itself for long term even with the large population.
Vegetarianism is as much a "vedic" practice as was non-vegetarianism. Enough verses in Rgveda and the Brahmanas to show meat was not only eaten; but animal sacrifice was part of religious rituals. As to how much %age of the population actually were vegetarian v/s non-vegetarian in vedic times, it is impossible to determine.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

But ManishH ji,
when we are so quick to think that the Vedas are full of abstractions and symbolism on concrete objects - like rivers, why do we always take the non-vegetarianism examples in the Vedic literally? Why cannot they be also symbolic? Like "sacrifice your animal instincts" for example!

Stretch - yes, but why stretching shouldbe restricted to onlee one type of things in the Vedic? If in the same text they were abstracting on important place markers [which is amply indicated to have been symbolically and spiritually significant] why not on rituals - especially since they have an obvious awareness of symbolism in ritual itself?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

B-ji: that's a very sensible way of interpreting it - vegetarianism is the right thing in a polluted world as pollutants accumulate the higher up in food chain one goes.

However, vedic animal sacrifice was meant to propiate gods and gain boons. Eg. Kauṣiṭaki Brahmaṇa explicitly says that animal sacrifice gives 3 boons : splendour (varcasa), food (adya) and heaven (svarga) It was not mere philosophical symbolism; but executed as part of śrauta ritual. 'Sacrifice' or yajña in vedic rite is not of something the yajamāna wants to disassociate with; but an act of faith and offering to Gods; usually something held valuable and dear.

We only have to take any Brahmaṇa and read the verses recited in a typical animal sacrifice yajña to determine the purpose, based on the yūpa (sacrifical post) ...

KB_10.1.10: pālāśam.brahma.varcasa.kāmaḥ.kurvīta
KB_10.1.11: bailvam.anna.adya.kāmaḥ
KB_10.1.12: khādiram.svarga.kāmaḥ

Far from shunning animal instinct, the animal represented an offering towards which all Gods gather when it is offered. So goes the 'manota' recited by sacrificer ...

KB_10.9.2: sarvā.ha.vai.devatāḥ.paśum.ālabhyamānam.upasaṃgacchante.mama.nāma.grahīṣyati

Animal sacrifice wasn't meant to give up the "animal instinct" any more than ghṛta or soma sacrifice was to give up Ghee and Soma. All three represented something very valuable to the pastoral society. Valuable enough to be offered in sacrifice and worthy of gaining boons.

My objection here is not to vegetarianism; but wrongly calling attributing it as vedic practice.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH ji,
there are certain peculiar practices in certain Brahmin circles : that of offering an "animal" made of barley-flour. Its simply the dough shaped into the form of an animal with four feet, ritually "slaughtered" and placed on fire. The thing is I have searched for the origins of this - and could trace it to before memories of the usual line of ancestors. With the strictness of Vedic continuity in the orthodox, why at some post-Vedic point they would suddenly break tradition with actual slaughter and blood-sacrifice rituals?

Given the symbolism in most rituals already visible even in the Rigvedic, is it not possible that this was indeed a very old tradition - where the animal sacrifice was actually symbolic rather than literal.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

Interesting point - is community tradition more amenable to change over time or is a metrically composed text ?

Knowing the conservatism inherent in Brahmins (it's one of the primary reasons for survival of cultural heritage), there is all reason to believe that present community traditions are an accurate indicator of millenia ago.

On the other hand, traditions do evolve even over very short time. Consider the case of Yajurvedi Chitpavans - a migrant and strictly vegetarian Brahmin community in Karnataka - they have a residual ritual of tying an animal (a cat) during a longish religious ritual. The youth of the community realized that for a naturally independent minded cat, being leashed for 3-4 hours is really torturous. So the youth actually got into arguments with their elders and now have stopped this altogether.

So the evolution from animal sacrifice as described in Yajurveda's Shatapatha Brahmana -> only tying the animal -> complete absence of an animal.

But every community has the first right to it's own heritage. Ancestral heritage and tradition has more value over any analysis of texts etc done in scholarly circles.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH ji,
Actually I wrote this on the distorted history thread :

Abstraction does exist in the Vedic, but then we should remember that all abstractions are represented through concrete, and something that ordinary folks have experienced materially. This is the curse of language as a two way communication channel - so that the sender of the message has to frame the message in a way that it can be decoded by the receiver. If the receiver is unable to interpret the abstract level itself, no message is conveyed. Thus every abstraction represented for the general consumption, also carries an element of reality - at least in the imagery within which it is wrapped up.

This is what I will add to your sudden transmutation theory:

Further, the concrete and material wrapping up of abstract in metaphors/symbolism has to be also strictly differentiated from the mundane or concrete material act. Otherwise, the sense that it is special, something different from the mundane act it mimics - is not established, and the entire purpose of delivering abstract messages through concrete metaphors - is defeated. Therefore, from the anthropological viewpoint we always see the regular practical act - always symbolized, changed in a way that distinguishes it from daily practice of the same.

If the high symbolism that we were speculating on in the other thread - [and in fcat there are reasons to suspect such high symbolism in more obvious case slike the purusha sukta] is accepted - then, allof the verses in the Vedas become suspect. Couched in oridinaty objects and metaphors using mundane experiences - they might be trying to say something completely different.

In that case when a river is no longer a river, an animal is no longer an animal , fire is no longer merely fire. The scarifices are no longer of the corresponding literal translations, but offerings of the symbolic associations behind them.

Thus Saraswati may mean astronomical or bio-neural pathways - but it had to be couched in terms of a practical real river which would strike a bell in the audience and bring up the magnificience of a mighty river in imagery and metaphor. Similarly, animals might be described for sacrifice so that people who do kill animals for food will get the idea, but is merely a device to bring up the imagery and need not be the actual act of blood sacrifice.

There is no clear boundary between the mundane, the real on one hand and the symbolic, abstract on the other. The ritual sits in between these two as a vague frontier, to help people cross over from the mundane to the abstract. Thus it needs to be different from the mundane. The door from your garden into your house is not the house, and cannot look like the garden either.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

Brihaspati ji and ManishH ji, my nANaka-dvayam:

Madhva was one acharya who explicitly banned animal slaughter in his community and substituted the animal with a figure made of grains. So the animal slaughter was prevalent before. But in this and many other facets of life, he re-wrote what constituted "sadaachaar" (good conduct) for his community. Today, even Madhva's sadachara-smrti is considered outdated and impractical by most of his own followers who live and work in the modern world. Recently the adhipati of the ashtamathas even transgressed the age old prohibition and travelled out of India to mlechha Russia, to encourage the small but growing community of serious Russki Vaishnavas there.

In the acharya's works, there's a clear understanding of the full spectrum of "ordinality of meaning" that one can give to Veda. From literal to figurative, it eventually seems to comes full circle.

This ordinality is based on the conditions of individual and social existence. The root Vedas themselves amply demonstrate the graded ordinality of meanings, both, in the tonality and content of the different sections. To quote Sri Aurobindo: "But these differences of manner take nothing from the unity of spiritual experience, nor are they complicated by any variation of the fixed terms and the common formulae. In the deep and mystic style of Dirghatamas Auchathya as in the melodious lucidity of Medhatithi Kanwa, in the puissant and energetic hymns of Vishwamitra as in Vasishtha’s even harmonies we have the same firm foundation of knowledge and the same scrupulous adherence to the sacred conventions of the Initiates."

Human dharma is to both, cognize the Vedic God as well as to keep body and soul together. So the survival meme is there, and it influences the condition of existence. As a social agreement, it is chosen based on the greatest good for the greatest number (of living entities). Obviously aapaatkaaleen-dharma (Emergency dharma) will have a different interpretation set of dharma than in a condition of Normalcy, or in a condition of Affluence, or Power, or even Change of Power equations. In a lowest condition of Chaos, everything may be creatively destroyed to start over. Etc. Thus, the dharma-shastras were considered a working document.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH ji
you can still see that - the token sacrifice of a grain-based animal shape, is perfectly compatible with the symbolism of food too. The yajniks are expected to partake of the "roasted" grain-animal flesh, as I know. The "food" and other things you mention - are not incompatible with the symbolism of it all, and need not contradict the substititution or symbolic replacement of an actual animal by a representative one. Ifthey were thinking in "magical" terms, the symbolism itself would suffice and be deemed more powerful than the real objects they represent.

and Carl ji,
I am speaking of Brahmins who have no connection with the Vaishnava schools you are referring to. These are pretty old-time Saraswat lineages, who have had no contact with Madhva. In the orthodox circles I am acquainted with - animal sacrifices have always been a no-no, and they say that it was the symbolic nature of the sacrifice, rather than an actual animal - which was the original sense in which they were framed. I have thought lot about it, and if we just look at the basis of the RigVeda, we cannot deny the possibility.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bji, What we need to look at is the topic of Ritual, Sacrifice and Rishis in the Vedas.

Has any one written such a book?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ramana ji,
I will look. But I think this particular layering of symbolic representations of actual objects mentioned is not universally applied. It is pretty obvious as to the level of symbolism or abstraction used in RigVeda in the various suktas. But interpretations assume literal for some while they assume abstractions for others. Fire, sun, air, water, sky, animal - among many other words are used in overlaid, symbolic meanings.

I feel that we should question the very interpretations we think are natural. Think of animal sacrifice for example. Because we assume Indians then used to love meat, or Vedic rishis were fond of meat - that sacrifice of animals must mean actual blood sacrifice. How do we confirm that they really were non-vegetarian? Try to trace this - you will be lost. What literature is contemporary to the RigVeda? Where do you have independent confirmation of the period [well even the period is disputed]? What does archeology say? Can it say anything at all given the range of the disputed period?Given the disputed location of the origins?

Even if we confirm general non-vegetarianism of the period, it still does not conclusively mean that these highly symbolic thinkers and ritualists were not describing representative objects instead of real one. It need not be, it could have been - we dont have sufficient information to rule out anyone as yet. But I am inclined towards allowingt the representative version too. Simply "fire/agni" itself has so many layered connotations - at the lowest level even a representative of the all-pervading soul - that we should not rule out these alternative possibilities.

These are people adept at metaphors - obviously a people faced with the challenges of explaining complex and abstract concepts to people not yet equipped to grasp them. They are forced to use similies and metaphors that others can visualize.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

brihaspati wrote:ManishH ji
you can still see that - the token sacrifice of a grain-based animal shape, is perfectly compatible with the symbolism of food too.
Bji: Let's try to find if the various Brāhmaṇa's support "grain cake as a substitute for animal" theory.

Regarding the grain cake (puroḷāsa) which was offered in the yajña, the Aitreya Br if the RV says -They prepare the grain cake with the animal and say thus: "may our animal be sacrifice-worthy by the nourishment; and by the wholeness".
ABR_2.1.8: tad yat paśau puroḷāśam anunirvapanti: samedhena naḥ paśuneṣṭam asat, kevalena naḥ paśuneṣṭam asad iti
So the grain cake was originally not a substitute of the animal - but an accompaniment in the sacrifice.

You can find the same conclusion reached in the book "Heat and Sacrifice in the Vedas", Uma Marina Vesci. The author has used verses from the Yajurvedic śatapatha brāhmaṇa to reach the same conclusion.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ZYWF ... 22&f=false
In fact, in the Brāhmaṇa rite, the rice cake does not replace the victim but completes it. It serves as one of the many means to concentrate the essense of the sacrificial victim .... It is clear that the rice cake requires and presupposes the animal victim but does not replace it.
brihaspati wrote: Ifthey were thinking in "magical" terms, the symbolism itself would suffice and be deemed more powerful than the real objects they represent.
There is a short mythology in Aitreya Br about why the cake is magical. The story goes that Gods sacrificed the primordial man and it's nourishment/soul (medha) escaped and entered the horse making it fit for sacrifice. When horse was sacrificed, it went to another animal and so on went a long chain until it enters earth and comes in form of rice. Any animal that is amedhyāḥ is unfit for sacrifice. Therefore the "magic" of cake is to make the animal samedha.

Over to Kauṣītaki Brāhmaṇa of RV, which explains a lot of symbolism in RV. This passage tells us what to do about the animal should it die before it is brought over prepared for sacrifice - it should be made to be given over to the priests. Then replaced by another of same type.
KB_18.8.21: atha.yadi.paśur.āvīto.anupākṛto.ṃriyeta /
KB_18.8.22: ṛtvigbhyas.tam.kārayet /
KB_18.8.23: atha.anyam.tad.rūpam.tad.varṇam.ālabheran /
Now, if animal sacrifice was only symbolic, why even have provisions to deal with premature death ?

Even in Aitreya Brāhmaṇa of RV, we have an anatomically detailed description of portions of sacrificed animal and how they should be apportioned:
Pañcika 7, chapter 1:
athātaḥ paśor vibbaktis, tasya vibhāgaṃ vakṣyāmo
hanū sajihve prastotuḥ, śyenaṃ vakṣa udgātuḥ, => jaws and tongue for Prastotar, breast to udgātṛ
kaṇṭhaḥ kākudraḥ pratihartur, dakṣiṇā śroṇir hotuḥ, => upper throat, right loins
savya brahmaṇo, dakṣiṇaṃ saktʰi maitrāvaruṇasya, => left (loin), right thigh
... so on it goes to describe portions in great anatomical detail. The level of detail described in this exegesis is like a scientific dissection - such things could not have been written without actually witnessing an animal sacrifice.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bji, Wasn't one of Buddha's attractions the prevalent animal sacrifices?

I admit he was much after the Vedic age.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

ManishH wrote:... so on it goes to describe portions in great anatomical detail. The level of detail described in this exegesis is like a scientific dissection - such things could not have been written without actually witnessing an animal sacrifice.
ManishH ji, obviously they were familiar with the anatomical neurobiology of the animal, which could have been studied in any lab they had - rather than during the actual yajna. They could also be familiar with auxiliary sciences such as surgery, physiognomy, effective states, etc - which later Vedic culture certainly was. So your quotes still don't prove that the main purport of the Veda is physical slaughter and sacrifice. Rather, when seen from the perspective of the whole, it provides an important psycho-physical aspect of spiritual process. The part you mentioned about medha being transmitted via the entire food chain, from man to the soil and foodgrains (including via the water cycle that nourishes the earth), is an important indicator of this view - unless you are assuming that was just some superstitious gibberish inserted by primitive people into their worldview.

I'm not disagreeing with you or B ji here, but just trying to look at it from a different viewpoint...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH ji,
it is difficult to translate and render into English the multiple imputations simultaneously possible and done in Sanskrit. While translating we are still approximating and second guessing what they might have meant - and in this we would be influenced by our preconceptions of what we think was prevalent practice.

As I suggested before, the abstractors would have to frame the symbolism with imagery that would make sense to the wider public. Thus "with" the cake, when "animals" are being offered, if you read the verse carefully - it does not rule out the meaning that "with the cake" an animal is simultaneously being offered - which is a very valid interpretation of offering a dough shaped like the animal. In fact animal shaped dough offerings were perhaps a very old practice - even before the formation of the Vedic as I have observed the practice among many obscure tribal populations, or is a remnant of the proto-Vedic itself.

All I am suggesting here, is that we have to think of the possibility that the framers of the verses were using imagery that non-abstractors would be able to grasp - it does not even contradict the practices in reality in the wider society - but for the ritual itself, it could have made it symbolic. This is a common phenomenon in most anthropological evidence that rituals reflect past or present actual experience and practice - but they subtly make the ritual different from actual practice to enhance its magical and symbolic claims. Thsee rituals cannot be mere copies of what is done on a daily basis for sustenance and otherwise. To gain the special halo of connection with superhuman forces - they need to take on subtly different representations comapred to the mundane.

Because of any possible loss of continuity of interpretations, it is possible that later on - the verses were interpreted literally, and the rituals re-started in the literal sense.
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