Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Atri
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 02 May 2012 03:09

Carl wrote:Atri ji,

That was a better way of putting it. But IMHO even in dharmaarthic terms, Sikhism played a more activist reform role than the Marathas. Sikhism was willing to modify and reset different broken or jammed iterations in society. It was willing to harvest memes and was capable of forging a new gotra of sorts, or at least a new identity. I don't think Marathas came anywhere close to that level of ability.


Well in that case you need to compare the work of saints in MH which gave the ideological backbone to the maratha renaissance. This was the real reason of their success. Give u an example. Twice every year for at least past 1300 years there is a mass pilgrimage in Deccan called as "vaari" wherein the surge of humanity (akin to mahakumbha) gathers at pandharpur. All the saints and social reformers of deccan since days of Rashtrakutas rose out of this movement. They include mathematicians like Bhaskaracharya to yogis like changdeva and nivruttinath to saints and reformers like eknath, namdev, gnaneshwara, tukaram, ramdas, and countless others.

The very reason there was no need to start a new path to "accommodate" ropers is that they did not grow that strong socially. Secondly, this movement challenged the rituals, caste domination by brahmins, status of woman, almost every aspect of society. Almost all bhakti saints except gnaneshvara, eknath and ramdas were non-brahmins. Most of them were from castes which are today in OBC, SC categories. Except gnanedhvara and ramdas, all were married and professional house-holders. They did not encourage sannyasa, but popularised "naama-smarana" and karma-yoga. This essentially did away with rituals. And this qas prior to islamic invasion on deccan.

Ramdas started akhadas and countless hanumaan mandirs in every village imparting training to his disciples in combat and also "intelligence gathering". All this was destroyed after 1882, but thats a different story.

The point is that this could materialize because

1. The demographics was in favor
2. The system which ensuered the bi-annual gathering of the "sajjana-shakti" was in place in form of vaari, in spite of the darkest phase in history of deccan.
3. The saints kept the dharma relevant to common man and institutionalized a model which ensured their participation.

The reality of punjab was different on all three counts when nanak baba rose. There was no instution similar to vaari, the demographics was perhaps not in as much favor, geography too plain and simple, no major temple left standing to start and propagate a vaari institution.

Sikh-panth was in much more hostile conditions than bhakti movement of deccan. Hence i differentiate between moksha-maarga and dharmaarthik maarga. Whatever u said matathas did not do, they need not do. Saints were doing that.

It is so funny when i hear arguments about how different "hinduism" is from "sikhism" because what gurus taught and did is exactly what the bhakti saints did and taught. Yet british could nor play their game in deccan whereas they could in punjab. Partly to blame is arya samaaj. Earlier the sikhs come out of this chakravyuha the better it is.

As far as dharmaarthik performance is concerned marathas were much more complete on dharmarthik parameters than sikhs simply owing to longetivity. Sikhs could not throw up a series of successful kings which upheld dharma and punished mlechhas, something which marathas could do all over india outside their home base continuouslt for a century and quarter. And all the great work of MRS was lost in partition.

Hence i have trouble calling it a "sikh empire". It was logical name then, but not after "sikhism" became to be known as different religion. Because the gurumat gets to carry all the blame of their post mrs kings. And "sikh empire" gets the halo of the karma of gurus. What you described were feats of sikh pantha or guru-mata.

Sikhs should bring back this narrative which has been hijacked by gora funded individuals.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 02 May 2012 03:52

So what happened in 1882 that destroyed the networks?

And who or what is MRS? Please use full form with abbreviation at first use.

Thanks,ramana

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 02 May 2012 03:55

MRS - Maharaja Ranjit Singh

1882 - Ramoshi rebellion of Vasudev Balwant Phadke crushed in Deccan.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 02 May 2012 06:21

Carl wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:I am proud of Sikh history but when I hear that the Sikhs became a role model to the spineless Hindu, sorry I cannot accept that. THe facts do not support that.

Who said that? Sikhs are Hindus in every way. But the mission of the Sikh Gurus was more comprehensive than the Marathas. We are not just talking about "martial" qualities. The Maratha ideology and sense of purpose was shallower.

Sikhism was not just about overthrowing a regime, it was about -

1. binding Indic society,
2. criticizing the spiritual rot within,
3. openly criticizing the oppressive and aggressive idealogy of the other,
4. advocating a firm response to atrocities,
5. and still maintaining a loving, open armed stance to rejoin Indic society,
6. with bold and innovative attempts at synthesis,
7. setting a comprehensive example of individual and communal practice that encompassed meditation, social activism, solidarity and other such sterling values. Courage and camaraderie.

The fact is that the Sikh Gurus' focus was on moral regeneration, first and last. They focused on the individual aspiration for spiritual freedom. Their attention to fighting political oppression was only a side effect of that central focus. The fact is that they epitomized non-violent good faith to the extent of martyring themselves more than once due to the skullduggery of the opponent, whose reputation has been blackened for posterity.

So the central focus of Sikhism was always on moral regeneration, and they set a sterling example of not allowing political grouses to hijack that natural human aspiration for spiritual freedom. They did this comprehensively, unlike Gandhi, who also tried to keep the focus on moral regeneration, but failed to appreciate the time and place for using violence to counter systematic violence. Gandhi's half-baked mission had to be supplemented by militant nationalists and Hindu nationalists. But Sikhism set an example of how all the rains can be held and directed coherently by the expert hand of a Master.

There is little comparison between their example and that of the Marathas, whose contribution is not being belittled at all.



But one of the great falls of the Bharatyia is the trap of being reactive in form and organization. Thus periodic clash with hostilities made Indic leaders counter with a matching and sometimes reflective stance in organization and procedures, even if using older linguistic frameworks. Thus monotheistic claims had to be countered by highlighting monotheistic strands in the Indic. Organized church like aggression had to be countered with matching monastic strands within Indic. Martial-stuff had to be countered with martial-stuff.

The problem with the success of such counters - is that it often helped start a procedure of fossilization and ossification. The feeling and confidence that the method must be universally applicable for all people and all times in the Indic. This sets a period specific solution into a permanent mode that consciously prevents adaptation, incorporation, giving up on old and change, even redefinition and reconstruction - and a fossilization of identity. It also fossilizes institutions and hierarchical orthodoxies. This is how the Abrahamic fossilized.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby VikramS » 02 May 2012 07:58

I have a more general question.

All the gyan we discuss and learn on BR, how to get it out to the NCERT brainwashed masses?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby shiv » 02 May 2012 09:01

Yogi_G wrote:I am proud of Sikh history but when I hear that the Sikhs became a role model to the spineless Hindu, sorry I cannot accept that. THe facts do not support that.


In fact Sikhs were also comparatively spineless until Guru Gobind Singh. He initially appealed to the Jat Sikhs who actually acquired military training under the Rajputs. Also the Marathas IIRC (need to check). But it was the creation of the classless Khalsa and the unique "Sikh" identity of the 5 "K"s - Kesh, Kada, Kanga, Kirpan and Kacha (or Kachera) that injected vigor and a new and positive self image into Sikhs. That is what I was referring to in my post.

The Indian with no pride in himself and his kind is not just the Hindu, but the modern educated indian, with his pride beaten out of him by his secular "world class" education. An Indian who is ashamed/embarrassed to show his Indian origins and wants to be a "world citizen" would IMO do well take a leaf out of the way some Sikhs are able to live life with long hair and a bangle. Sikhs too are unfortunately finding it easier to become "world citizens" minus 4 of the 5 ks. or all 5 in fact.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby shiv » 02 May 2012 09:04

VikramS wrote:I have a more general question.

All the gyan we discuss and learn on BR, how to get it out to the NCERT brainwashed masses?


IMO use the power of the internet. That is where all the unwashed masses are going.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Prem » 02 May 2012 09:25

shiv wrote:quote="VikramS"]I have a more general question.
All the gyan we discuss and learn on BR, how to get it out to the NCERT brainwashed masses?
IMO use the power of the internet. That is where all the unwashed masses are going.


Indian need cultural revolution in real sense. To plant the seed, old gooks must be uprooted and used as fertilizer.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby abhischekcc » 02 May 2012 09:31

brihaspati wrote:This is how the Abrahamic fossilized.


Could you expand on this? TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby harbans » 02 May 2012 13:49

I have been trying to iterate this for some time, but dividing ourselves on the impulse of foreigners who have not understood our ethos as of yet into Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Arya Samaj, Krishna'ites, Vaishnavites, Shiv Bhakts, Dvaita, Advaita, Ganesh Bhakts, Kali, Durga Bhakts etc etc won't help us or others to understand what we in the core or the majority of us imply. The common strand between us and differentiated from the Excluvist ideologies of Islam and Xtianity is Incluvism and Dharma, Moksha as key principles. We don't believe in Idea Mobile and Abhishek Bacchans concept of Heaven and pearly gates. Yes there are worlds that are mentioned in Scriptures that allude to Indra's heavens and Urvashi's, but these are clearly mentioned as being temporary. Moksha from the cycle of Birth and Death and union with the supreme conciousness, self which essentially is what Yoga is about, is our spiritually evolutionary drive. Going about this we acknowledge may have different paths, means and modes..these are mentioned in BG for example very clearly. I think we should start by calling ourselves Dharmics next census onwards..and encourage others to do the same. That would also develop kinship with Tibetans, Myanmarese, Lankans and so on. It would disassociate the negative yokes which foreigners use to brand a majority falsely here. We can be known as Dharmic Sikh, Dharmic Jain, Dharmic Buddhist etc..but we all are essentially Dharmics..yes an many of our Dharmics are ready to fight till the last drop of blood to defend the values of Dharma and for fellow Dharmics.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 02 May 2012 14:43

ramana wrote:Athirathram 2012 to be conducted in Bhadrachalam:

Atirathram 2012 in Bhadrachalam


Very good.

This needs to be replicated in all the corners of India. All other Yagnas need to be revived as well. The last to be revived should be an "Ashwamedha" OR a "Raajasooya"...

We miss a strong "Shrauta" tradition. This keeps society from becoming too much involved in temples and Moorti-Pooja. A balance is essential.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 02 May 2012 19:19

Atri ji, very valid points. However, the stepwise, multi-generational unfolding of the Sikh pantha under very adverse conditions remains a case study in a class by itself. There was no space-time leeway for multi-person and multi-generational limbs of purshaarthas to appear. All purshaarthas has to be found in one person, and it had to unfold based on external threat modifications over multiple generations. The scenario here is different, and it is a difference of the level of reactive versus analytical latitude available. the necessity level was higher.

Atri wrote:It is so funny when i hear arguments about how different "hinduism" is from "sikhism" because what gurus taught and did is exactly what the bhakti saints did and taught. Yet british could nor play their game in deccan whereas they could in punjab. Partly to blame is arya samaaj. Earlier the sikhs come out of this chakravyuha the better it is.

The mischief of the Briturd Macauliffes is what needs to be undone, because it is designed to cut off the Sikh branch from its Vedic/Hindu context.

Arya Samaj is a different animal. They cuss out all Hindu panths, not just Sikhi. There is a school of thought that says that in order to find one's own point of departure, one needs to critique and reject all pre-existing matas. Moreover, the minimalist non-property based shrauta tradition is necessary to keep Vedic tradition sabotage-proof and not dependent on matha-mandira for survival. Arya Samaj type meme has its own utility in the Indic continuum of thought, I believe.


Brihaspati ji,
brihaspati wrote:But one of the great falls of the Bharatyia is the trap of being reactive in form and organization. Thus periodic clash with hostilities made Indic leaders counter with a matching and sometimes reflective stance in organization and procedures, even if using older linguistic frameworks. Thus monotheistic claims had to be countered by highlighting monotheistic strands in the Indic. Organized church like aggression had to be countered with matching monastic strands within Indic. Martial-stuff had to be countered with martial-stuff.

The problem with the success of such counters - is that it often helped start a procedure of fossilization and ossification.

This is a pitfall if it remains keyed-in when the actual exterior threat is not present in the environment. Otherwise it is a necessary part of the reactive apparatus of Indic civilization.

When the chips are down, and you're being run over by a truck or being roasted alive, there is no scope for the analytical activity of "adapting", etc. As in the individual human, so also in the body politic, when there is a shock to the system, that refined and more capable apparatus of enlightened analytical buddhi is fused out of circuit, and the reactive circuits cut in and take control of the organism. A Vedic lion cannot be entrusted to catch a mlechha mouse. A smaller, more blinkered, Vedic kshudra cat needs to be employed for the purpose.

A reactive organ that is programmed to fight fire with fire is a workable solution I think. These reactive implements are then ideally rendered benign once the threat recedes and they would not remain keyed in -- due to the checks and balances of the Vedic context and its association.

The British played mischief by -
(a) Trying to remove Sikhi from its Vedic/Hindu context
(b) Keeping India's reactive circuits keyed in by repeatedly re-stimulating communal strife and fear and competition for breadcrumbs.

In such a situation of chronic restimulation, the individual's and civilization's reactive organ turns on itself and weakens and ultimately finishes off the self.

We need to fuel the anti-Briturd rage that is found in large parts of the Islamic world and lead their genocidal reactive rage towards mother england. They think they have sown mischief in India? Let them reap the whirlwind. If a few bhatke-hue UK and Canada-based Khalistanis want to be involved as loyal soldiers of Her Majesty in that turmoil, so be it. I hear some of them actively offer themselves as field troops to prevent Islamization of neighborhoods in Londonistan.

For our part, what we need to do is to harvest the valuable reactive as well as enlightened memes that have been left in the wake of the multi-generational career of Sikhi (and Gurmat in general under Bhakti-marga), and incorporate it into Adhunik Bharat.
Last edited by Agnimitra on 02 May 2012 19:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 02 May 2012 19:32

brihaspati wrote:But one of the great falls of the Bharatyia is the trap of being reactive in form and organization. Thus periodic clash with hostilities made Indic leaders counter with a matching and sometimes reflective stance in organization and procedures, even if using older linguistic frameworks. Thus monotheistic claims had to be countered by highlighting monotheistic strands in the Indic. Organized church like aggression had to be countered with matching monastic strands within Indic. Martial-stuff had to be countered with martial-stuff.

The problem with the success of such counters - is that it often helped start a procedure of fossilization and ossification. The feeling and confidence that the method must be universally applicable for all people and all times in the Indic. This sets a period specific solution into a permanent mode that consciously prevents adaptation, incorporation, giving up on old and change, even redefinition and reconstruction - and a fossilization of identity. It also fossilizes institutions and hierarchical orthodoxies. This is how the Abrahamic fossilized.


Devaguru,

The "institution" of Vaari ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varkari ) is similar unorganized organization.

It is like the "Sarvato Mukhi Yagna" described by Parag Topé ji in his ORL. Everyone knows where to go. Everyone knows when to go.. Everyone knows how to go. But there isn't any invitation, any notification, any organization. People spontaneously come together, some of them spontaneously become "volunteers" and maintain order and discipline. Millions of people from MP, GJ, MH, KN, AP, Goa just come in spontaneously, twice every year. And once the darshana is over, they go away similarly.

The main "flow" starts from Dehu and Aalandi. people join this "mukhya dhara" as it passes. They walk the whole day. they eat together in night, talk, sing, dance, converse, debate and then go to sleep in open OR in tent. There are even people and competitions of cart-racing, horse riding, sword-fighting and other "martial arts". With sunrise, they walk again. You should try this once. :)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 02 May 2012 19:56

Carl and Atri ji,
it was my indirect, and perhaps first obliquely critical post on the forum about the pre-existing dispensations of Sikh pantha, Arya Samaaj, and others of the same organized format.

I see each as making the same mistake as the Abrahamic, which is thinking that what succeeded in a particular setting must be the only and correct route, and which should remain so forever into the future.

The understanding about the spiritual should be left partially open - not so wide open that everything inside gets blown away in storms, nor so narrow that we do not know what is outside and how outside has changed that may require rebuilding our house and shelter. Too much staying indoors actually weakens the immunity.

Pantha - routes - maargas once formalized under a guruvadi institutional format is an excuse for a hierarchy and institutional power elite to crystallize and self-perpetuate. Such an elite will desperately seek to consolidate an exclusive identity [allowing others to join in is not a contradiction to exclusive identity claims] and go for finer and finer distinctions to sharpen differences from those close and nearly similar. It is in the interest of that elite to fossilize the identity bit, so that the institutional power basis remains unchallenged.

This is in no way any denigration of the role of the Sikhs and the Sikh gurus. What I am uneasy with is the distinctive institutional form it has taken finally that thinks - just like similar other successful institutions - that the institution itself is equal to the journey and the seeking of routes.

I come from a practical organizational viewpoint where I am seeking mobilization of "all". I see pre-existing institutions as obstacles.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 02 May 2012 20:12

B ji,

Yes I agree about the institutional monopolization of a tradition. IMHO, institutions can play a role merely as portals to the wider tradition, as an outreach mechanism, and to orient the newcomer. They have that utility, especially in the modern, urbanized and corporatized world. Beyond that, when they want to monopolize access to and interpretation of the tradition, then they are a definite obstacle. All of the panthas have their institutional setup today, including most of the Bhakti movements that came up around that time speaking the same message. So its not just Sikhi.

A deeper system is needed that uses these institutions as meme seeding devices in society. We just need to harvest the memes from all these experiences, clarify their usefulness w.r.t. the appropriate external and internal environmental variables, and consolidate those personality types amongst use that are suitable for each service route.

A salad bar of sorts, a civilizational continuum has to be presented. Then individuals can be attracted to one or the other based on innate qualities and life situation, and their potential will be dovetailed in service of the civilization and the self. The continuum needs institutional support. The people milling around to learn and view is perhaps better handled by what Atri ji called unorganized organization, like the Kumbha mela or Vaari festivals. The existence of sufficient diversity in our civilizational continuum will ensure this.

Then beyond that, institutional setup may be required in an educational capacity, and to maintain standards, but that is a different matter.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 02 May 2012 21:05

Atriji, Family invovled in the organizing of it. However got the news from media only. :(

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sanjeevpunj » 02 May 2012 21:25

The crucial need of today is to ensure happy family units, which comprise a large part of India's population.We need to come down to brass tacks here. So many conflicts within various religious organisations is causing a sectarean type of scenario to develop in India, and this is totally unwarranted.If the people do not listen to reason,eventually force will be brought in,and the military state becomes a reality.Before India heads for that, there must be a consensus on many issues,and no one is bridging this widening gap,it is so huge already.I do not see any way except through educating the masses using Internet, TV and print media, to maintain equanimity and peace.All religions aim to bring peace,and have flourished in India as India is a very open country, not limited by dogmas.I wish peace to all the world and its beings.
I have been reading lately a book called "Easy Journey to other planets" by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.He discusses the theory of a parallel universe (an antimaterial universe) which exists simultaneously with our own, and is permanent, whereas our universe is temporary.Wherever the two universes touch there is annihiliation. He brought out the book to convince scientists that "yes! there are other planets with life on them, and these lifeforms are adapted to the particular conditions of those planets, and are not necessarily earthly life forms.An earthling will need to prepare well before he can breathe on the moon. In all cases he is likely to die at first exposure.Similarly,aliens from other planets also have to die when they land on earth,as their body would not be suitable for earth.So eh develops the book in a way to convince the readers that there is an eternal universe ruled by Krishna,which is simultaneously existing but unseen to human eyes. To see it we need to develop the "inner eye" or the "divya chakshuhu" and this happens by the grace of a guru who has already seen Krishna.This book is on amazon, and costs under 2 USD. It is also in pdf/ebook format.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby member_20317 » 02 May 2012 22:08

I have thought sometimes what would happen if say the Indian Muslims are brought out of the influence to the Ummah and eventually end up developing their own mythology say about Mahumad. A new mythology where say Mahummad looks more like Ram and less like an Arab high on hashish. Where say suddenly in some cave near the Dead Sea some scrolls are found where in Mahummad denies that muslims have a Haq and Fard and instead advises his followers to try to strike a balance between Rights and Duties and to stop putting in so much effort at being different and instead just be different and be ok with it.

What would happen then. Say inside India and outside.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RajeshA » 02 May 2012 22:41

ravi_g ji,

a better way to go about it is to show that Muhammad was an illegitimate prophet, not sanctioned by God, e.g. because he does not belong to genealogical line of Abraham, with whom 'God' entered into a Covenant.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 02 May 2012 22:56

ramana wrote:Atriji, Family invovled in the organizing of it. However got the news from media only. :(


You OR any resident BRFite planning to attend it? I wish to do so, sometime in life. I hope this becomes a recurring feature. I salute the Namboodiri people to have saved this ritual in spite of all odds for past 1000 years. When all India was falling to the depradations of Abrahmic and Naastika faiths.. When all India was becoming obsessed with temple, smritis, and "gods"..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 02 May 2012 23:18

Atri ji, ramana ji, brihaspati ji, and others,

I have heard that the shrauta tradition is supposedly motheaten and considered lost or outdated, and has been traditionally substituted by traditions such as pancharatra, etc. Is this just a sectarian viewpoint? Do you know the background of this and what is the big picture in terms of Vedic "ritual" practices? TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby member_20317 » 02 May 2012 23:19

RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

a better way to go about it is to show that Muhammad was an illegitimate prophet, not sanctioned by God, e.g. because he does not belong to genealogical line of Abraham, with whom 'God' entered into a Covenant.


In fact RajeshA ji, the world can have it both ways if the correct set of Mohammads teachings are found.

This will give choice to the Muslims esp. to muslims out of the Ummah's situ. This could actually be a bigger Coup then the whole of Libya/Syria etc. and it would leave the world a much richer place to live in. Whatever has birth has death too so why not the linear narratives.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Murugan » 03 May 2012 11:31

Seven Mokshadayika Cities

Ayodhya Mathura Maya* Kashi Kanchi Avantika |
Puri Dwaravatichaiva Saptaita Mokshdaayika ||

1) six cities i could locate but where is Maya situated

2) How to go to Kanchi (kanchipuram)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ajit.d » 03 May 2012 13:51

Murugan wrote:Seven Mokshadayika Cities

How to go to Kanchi (kanchipuram)


Kanchi is about 70 KM from Chennai, on the Chennai Blore Highway. Depending on where you are in Chennai, there are multiple routes to reach Kanchi. The normal practice is to base oneself in Chennai and do a 1 day visit to Kanchi. But now a days, there are decent hotels in Kanchi and one can stay in Kanchi.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Murugan » 03 May 2012 13:52

ajit.d saar mucha thanx

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ManishH » 03 May 2012 15:00

Atri wrote:This needs to be replicated in all the corners of India. All other Yagnas need to be revived as well. The last to be revived should be an "Ashwamedha" OR a "Raajasooya"...


Incidentally, there was a rajasuya yajna also held a few months back in Gadag, Karnataka. There's a TV9 Kannada report on this followed by a panel discussion. The discussion is interesting because it has vedic priests on one side justifying these rites and bhakti minded people on another side saying that bhakti/japa etc are more relevant in today's time.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFZ90yE_QlM
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eEVsCMKro8
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kCI_ttSSU
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COQoboNFlTI
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7v3nJFqgTw

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 03 May 2012 17:13

How can they conduct raajasuya? there requires a coronated king (in today's terms, an incumbent CM) to be the "yajamaana". He requires to be chakravarti. After he becomes PM, today only NaMo is fit to perform Raajasooya Yagna.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ManishH » 03 May 2012 17:23

That's what the panel discussion was about. One set of people were justifying the yajna saying, "this is the era of rule by people, so every attending person is the yajamana". Another set of people were calling it an outmoded practice, quoting devotional saints' sayings on how keertana is kaliyuga equivalent of yajna in older yugas.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 03 May 2012 17:47

In fact, it would be awesome (in my personal opinion) to perform Raajasooya when PM is sworn in from a party which has formed a government in at least 15 states in India (either in coalition OR on its own). The chief ministers of each state can be asked to participate in the ceremony.

Only JLN and IG would have been fit to have this ceremony conducted. Its a pity they did not. It would have pissed off many detractors of India. Democratically elected PM conducting a Raajasooya.. now thats revolutionary.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 03 May 2012 18:54

ManishH ji, could you weigh in on the related question I asked above?
Atri ji, ramana ji, brihaspati ji, and others,

I have heard that the shrauta tradition is supposedly motheaten and considered lost or outdated, and has been traditionally substituted by traditions such as pancharatra, etc. Is this just a sectarian viewpoint? Do you know the background of this and what is the big picture in terms of Vedic "ritual" practices? TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ManishH » 03 May 2012 19:17

I don't have any connection to families that still practice shrauta ritual today. But one thing about Indian rites will apply, the rite and theology mirrors state of society. The Shrauta ritual itself was formed in an era where chieftains became kings. The rite reflected wishes of the executive arm of the state in the formative years of statehood. Probably Shrauta ritual started becoming vestigial when monumental construction became an expression of might and wishes of statehood.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Sushupti » 03 May 2012 19:47

Murugan wrote:Seven Mokshadayika Cities

Ayodhya Mathura Maya* Kashi Kanchi Avantika |
Puri Dwaravatichaiva Saptaita Mokshdaayika ||

1) six cities i could locate but where is Maya situated

2) How to go to Kanchi (kanchipuram)


Haridwar, now in Uttarakhanda state.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Murugan » 03 May 2012 20:47

haridwar. Visited many times never knew it is mayapuri, sushuptiji thanks

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 04 May 2012 09:55

Atri wrote:How can they conduct raajasuya? there requires a coronated king (in today's terms, an incumbent CM) to be the "yajamaana". He requires to be chakravarti. After he becomes PM, today only NaMo is fit to perform Raajasooya Yagna.


Anticipatory rajasuya? they will have to keep the agni alive then until the man arrives.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 04 May 2012 10:00

I was a skeptic. But fire - the agni - is a great symbolic and psychological unifier. I think some degree of colour should come back to our public religious life. It needs to go back to the simplicities of practice - emphasizing connection to nature, open spaces, land and the basic forces of nature. Bhakti should go out of temples - go out of confines of semi-private corners of temple cults. It must occupy public space, fill it up, connect to the wider land. Temple and guru-ashram based focus confines spritituality and moves it away from public domain, as if the two are separate.

The Narmada parikrama is an excellent pointer - it goes around, people do it again and again. It is time for our spirituality to reclaim the open space, and the public domain, and come out of the glitter and shine of money around monuments.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Abhi_G » 05 May 2012 18:30

What is the connection between Vishwamitra of the Dasharajnya (battle of 10 kings) and the conflict with Vashishtha?

It seems Vishwamitra was the guru of the loosing side (Vashishtha was Sudas' guru); yet Vishwamitra gets mentioned so many numerous time later - Ramayana, Mahabharat etc., even gets elevated as a Saptarishi....

What there no effect on his stature due to siding with a confederacy that went against Sudas?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby kshatriya » 05 May 2012 21:09

Abhi_G wrote:What is the connection between Vishwamitra of the Dasharajnya (battle of 10 kings) and the conflict with Vashishtha?

It seems Vishwamitra was the guru of the loosing side (Vashishtha was Sudas' guru); yet Vishwamitra gets mentioned so many numerous time later - Ramayana, Mahabharat etc., even gets elevated as a Saptarishi....

What there no effect on his stature due to siding with a confederacy that went against Sudas?



Could it be different Vishwamitra's ? Or did they live really long ?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Abhi_G » 06 May 2012 12:10

kshatriya wrote:
Could it be different Vishwamitra's ? Or did they live really long ?


Yes, Vishwamitra is a tradition/sect - like people have Vishwamitra Gotra. But is it not strange that a sect that sides with a confederacy that is against Sudas, continued to receive honour and respect and has even composed the Gayatri?

What happens to Vishwamitra? Did he side with the opponents due to his rivalry with Vashishtha? What happened after the war? Vishwamitra ultimately does rise to the status of maharishi. The same tradition is the precursor of Bharat, son of Shakuntala.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Sushupti » 07 May 2012 19:52

Can someone teach this nitwit a thing or two about what Samkhya actually
is.

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f37/th ... -9607.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Prem » 08 May 2012 00:13

Size of the Universe according to the Vedas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRI_v7- ... re=related


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