Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[Carl_T]

perhaps because there is very likely a historical core to the 'story' and it is enlightening to propose valid historical hypotheses in order to unravel the real history from the myth ? there are just too many associations between ramayana and local narratives for it to be just a story.

IMHO the vanara were a tribe with a monkey totem who aligned with the ayodhan kingdom. animal totems were very commonplace in proto-historic cultures, such a tribe could have gone to battle in monkey masks and a false tail, for example and other tribes would have referred to them by their totem animal. we have a perfect example of this very concept in the naga people described in the ancient literature.

in time however, the real historical basis would have been lost (it's also likely that ancient chroniclers had no need to explain who the vanaras were, it was well known that they were a forest dwelling tribe rather than literally monkeys) in subsequent revisions of the text and as the civilizational memory of the totem culture died away.

The point was not directed at a existence of a "historical core" to the story of vanaras, but the specific link to the neanderthals. There is nothing to suggest that the neanderthals were "monkeys" or even "forest dwellers" or even lived in India for that matter. I think is more likely to be just monkeys than neanderthals.

IMO the vanaras were probably based on even older stories of forest dwelling tribes who spoke a different language. With no evidence to back it up, I think it is similar to the Andamanese peoples who may have traveled between the islands and the mainland.

[naren]

Ancient Tamil literatures talk about the migration of Pandyan kings from the mythical Kumari Kandam.

Kumari Kandam is believed to be South of Kanyakumari. My theory is that people are referring to the Indonesian archipelago. Just like China refers to India as the West, we could have referred to Indonesia as the South because they depended on winds for navigation (no GPS back then ). The underlying culture in SE Asia is Ramayana.

So the vanaras could have well been the Aborigines of Australia, who were probably referenced as "monkeys".

[Rahul M]

carl, so the monkeys formed an army and indulged in organised warfare on behalf of the prince of ayodha ? I must congratulate you on your idea of historic facts !
I personally do not buy the neanderthal angle but it is certainly more plausible than monkeys.

IMO the vanaras were probably based on even older stories of forest dwelling tribes who spoke a different language. With no evidence to back it up, I think it is similar to the Andamanese peoples who may have traveled between the islands and the mainland.

and then what happened to these people ? according to ramayana these people ended up n the winning side, so they should still be there ? AFAIK there is no genetic connection between any ethnic group from the Indian mainland and the tribes of andaman islands.

in fact why is there a need to invent uber-complex theories when much simpler ones fit the facts ? occam's razor serves well in such cases.
________________

Kumari Kandam is believed to be South of Kanyakumari. My theory is that people are referring to the Indonesian archipelago. Just like China refers to India as the West, we could have referred to Indonesia as the South because they depended on winds for navigation (no GPS back then ). The underlying culture in SE Asia is Ramayana.

So the vanaras could have well been the Aborigines of Australia, who were probably referenced as "monkeys".

you might want to revisit that hypothesis since even at a cursory glance some glaring inconsistencies are evident.
by your version, ram from ayodha (or anywhere else ?) was exiled to australia where he met the vanaras and then attacked indonesia ? that's kind of a stretch ain't it ?

I still don't see what these uber-complex theories are supposed to achieve.

[Carl_T]

Kumari Kandam is believed to be South of Kanyakumari. My theory is that people are referring to the Indonesian archipelago. Just like China refers to India as the West, we could have referred to Indonesia as the South because they depended on winds for navigation (no GPS back then ).

What is the translation of Kumari Kandam from Tamil?

Quite interesting you bring it up, imvho I think Lanka might be placed there...

[naren]

^^^ What I was trying to explore was the connectivity between Indonesia and India back then.

PS: We could claim Indonesia to be Tamil Nadu, Australia to be Lanka and invade them

Carl ji,

Kumari = young woman or virgin.

Kandam = continent.

[Rahul M]

naren, kumari kandam might be simply landmass belonging to the Indian plate that has sunk into the ocean once the ice from the last ice age melted. the planet's land mass was much bigger during the ice age and there are theories that the Indian landmass extended significantly from its current limits.
If I'm not wrong tamil literature speaks of more than one instance when important places went under water. the sinking of landmass worldwide happened in a series of events spanning a few thousand years, ending about 7000 years ago IIRC. it is theorised that the english channel for example was a land bridge during the ice age. it's very likely that it was similar in India.

[Carl_T]

carl, so the monkeys formed an army and indulged in organised warfare on behalf of the prince of ayodha ? I must congratulate you on your idea of historic facts !

Why not? You don't buy the monkey angle, I don't buy the waging war on behalf of the prince of ayodhya angle.

Vanara simply means forest dweller, so it could well be tribes living in the forest.

I personally do not buy the neanderthal angle but it is certainly more plausible than monkeys.

and then what happened to these people ? according to ramayana these people ended up n the winning side, so they should still be there ? AFAIK there is no genetic connection between any ethnic group from the Indian mainland and the tribes of andaman islands.

in fact why is there a need to invent uber-complex theories when much simpler ones fit the facts ? occam's razor serves well in such cases.

Well where are the neanderthals today in India? They ended up on the winning side right? Genetic link between neanderthals and any ethnic group from the Indian mainland?

[Rahul M]

Why not? You don't buy the monkey angle, I don't buy the waging war on behalf of the prince of ayodhya angle.

Vanara simply means forest dweller, so it could well be tribes living in the forest.

pardon me, but about what and whom are you talking about exactly ? you don't buy "the waging war on behalf of the prince of ayodhya angle" means what ? that monkeys existed but fighting monkeys were introduced in the text just for kicks ? or what ? I'm finding it near impossible to make sense of your comments.
or that the whole of ramayana is bunkum (except that part about the mysterious andamanese which is the only thing ramayana somehow validates in your view)?

Well where are the neanderthals today in India? They ended up on the winning side right? Genetic link between neanderthals and any ethnic group from the Indian mainland?

imitation is the highest form of flattery they say.

anyway, you might have missed this part in the comment you quoted :

I personally do not buy the neanderthal angle.........

if you have arguments against the theory that I personally feel is plausible, you are welcome to put those.

[ramana]

Amartya Sen was truly right in his book title.

What are you guys arguing about?

[Carl_T]

I think if the vanaras were tribes of people wearing monkey tails, the poets would have filled us in on that in addition to calling them vanaras.

[Rahul M]

just like they filled us in on how the nagas were actual people and not snakes ?
that is some logic ! may be they didn't realise people wouldn't know who vanaras were 2-3000 years later ? or may be they did and it got lost in the centuries of translations and editions since then ?

heavens forbid if our civilization were going to be destroyed tomorrow with only a history of the Indian army surviving, 2000 years from now, some Carl_T would argue that 'singhs' were actual lions rather than people.

I think if the vanaras were tribes of people wearing monkey tails, the poets would have filled us in on that in addition to calling them vanaras.

that was just extrapolation, it's not necessary that they had to wear those particular attire. just FYI, wearing animal skin in battle was established practice well into late ancient era all over the world. it continued into modern era in africa and americas.

btw, the concept of totems survive to this day, what are the following items : british lion, roman eagle, french fighting cock, american bald eagle, chinese dragon etc if not modern analogue of totems ?

[ramana]

Ravana had a boon (vara) not to be killed by god, animal or what not. he thought he could handle humnas. As his atyachar/paap increased, Maha Vishnu took human birth as Rama to kill him. The other gods took the form of vanaras (semi-human) to help in the task. The poet Valmiki in his imagination described the vanaras as semi human(they had human attributes:kingdom, scholars, warriors etc) with human wives. My contention was even though its poetic imagination its rooted on some distant memory of human and proto-humans as the report of Neandthrals and human interaction. Its nobodies case that Neandthrals or their progeny were in ancient India or even now.

[Prem]

Not Onlee Vanars but Bears/ Reech also act like human. Jamvant was not Vanar, but who was he

Jambavan and Sri Krishna : Jambavan was quite old by the time that he fought Sri Krishna for the Syamantaka gem. In the Bhagavatam, Jambavan picks up the wonderful Syamantaka Mani (gem) from a lion after killing it. Then he gives it to his daughter Jambavati to play with. The Syamantaka Mani was a gift from Surya Deva to Satrajit, a Yadava (one of Sri Krishna’s relatives). It would give lots of gold, everyday, to whoever had it with them. Sri Krishna came to retrieve the Mani, to clear his own good name - Satrajit had accused Krishna of stealing it.

Jambavan and Sri Krishna had a great fight, some say for 3 weeks and some say for 4 weeks and Jambavan started getting tired because he was quite old by now. He recognised the same divine spirit in Krishna that he saw in Rama and delightedly gave him not only the Syamantaka Mani, but also his daughter Jambavati in marriage.

Sri Krishna and Jambavati had a naughty little son called Samba, who loved to play tricks on people. Once he dressed up as a pregnant girl and along with his cousins, tried to fool some rishis. This resulted in a curse that effected the destruction of many of the Yadavas

[Carl_T]

just like they filled us in on how the nagas were actual people and not snakes ?

Why don't you cite some descriptive passages about the Nagas. Now It's been some years since I studied Sanskrit, but it would pretty clear if the poets treat them the same way and settle this debate.

Naga in every instance doesn't refer to the Nagas of SL, in cases it may be actual people, in other cases, snakes are depicted in human form. Garuda is depicted in human form from time to time. There are stories where the Sudarshan chakra appears as a human, now did Krishna have an actual guy named Sudarshan?

[naren]

naren, kumari kandam might be simply landmass belonging to the Indian plate that has sunk into the ocean once the ice from the last ice age melted. the planet's land mass was much bigger during the ice age and there are theories that the Indian landmass extended significantly from its current limits.

Rahul ji,

There's a whole bunch of dedicated conspiracy nuts who "study" this area (Kumari Kandam = Lemuria). The submersion theory was believed like 100 years back but has been negated with tectonic theories.

What interests me is the cultural unity between SEA and India. I dont think the influence of Tamil culture has been studied well. (In TN, the govt has higher priorities... like providing subsidized liquor and free TVs ). If I'm not mistaken, even much of the research in Sanskrit-influence came from Oirope, not India

If I'm not wrong tamil literature speaks of more than one instance when important places went under water. the sinking of landmass worldwide happened in a series of events spanning a few thousand years, ending about 7000 years ago IIRC. it is theorised that the english channel for example was a land bridge during the ice age. it's very likely that it was similar in India.

You're talking about Poompuhar. I think except for 1 (or 2?) Mahabalipuram shore temple, the rest have submerged.

Or may be just a myth ? I havent read this fully yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pago ... abalipuram

[brihaspati]

The Kumari Kandam could be a conflation of two different historical memories.

There were several migrations from Indonesia back into the subcontinent after the first spreadinh around 70,000 to 80,000 BCE. The sea level began to fall from around this stage but reached its peak only around 18,000 BCE. In between the fall was uneven and sometimes the trend reversed. The Indonesian part was then beginning to take the shape of a continuous landmass. Given possible climatic situation this could have been an ideal place to develop proto-agriculture. Pewriodic large volcanic eruptions as well as aridity/sea-level changes drove populations back along their coastal journey into India. There is some genetic evidence for this.

This could be an earlier memory of migration.

But the more recent one could simply be the climate refugees of the wide band of coastal land around southern India stretching from Gujarat to Orissa (and even Bengal delta) that was submerged in stages from around 10,500 BCE to 1500 BCE. There are well known rapid (decadal/centurian) rises around circa 8000 BCE, 6000 BCE, 4000 BCE etc.

Instead of sinking maybe we should use the term submergence due to sea-level rise. This has two opposite factors governing it, but in the case of India only one worked in the latest glaciation period, so there was no compensation due to isostatic effects.

On the other hand HSS crossed over into Oz in apparently planned colonization bids over hundreds of miles of open sea before circa 50,000 BCE. So those who could travel and cross seas in planned colonization efforts we should not rule out maritime contact between Indonesia and coastal India which definitely included the current island of Sri Lanka, and other "islands". It probably did not extend to the extent shown in "Lemuria".

But naren ji has a point. There were definite "Indic" connections to Oz and Indonesia - even if it was 50,000 BCE. Pity we gave up claims on the areas!

Ramana ji's hunch should not be dismissed lightly. Neanderthal spread is based on currently accumulated findings of neanderthal-ic bones. It may change in the future. I think our epics and narratives contain layered conflations of historical memory of different periods. So that stories of much earlier periods could be hidden in stories decidely told from later experience angles. It can also be a literary mnemonic device that is coding earlier history, astronomical data, geological knowledge in the form of human stories.

[naren]

^^^ I saw this 3 part documentary Journey into Buddhism. One of the part explores the Buddhist/Hindu temple ruins in Java and Indonesia (Borobudur, Prambanan). Very beautiful. I think you should be able to find some clips in youtube too. Bliss to enjaay.

Here's another interesting link I stumbled upon yesterday - Ganesha in World religions. I first discovered this in a Thai restaurant. They had a Ganesha idol and offered milk for good business. I was surprised to hear that Ganesha is part of their mainstream worship !

[Rahul M]

naren, kumari kandam might be simply landmass belonging to the Indian plate that has sunk into the ocean once the ice from the last ice age melted. the planet's land mass was much bigger during the ice age and there are theories that the Indian landmass extended significantly from its current limits.

Rahul ji,

There's a whole bunch of dedicated conspiracy nuts who "study" this area (Kumari Kandam = Lemuria). The submersion theory was believed like 100 years back but has been negated with tectonic theories.
submersion theory of what ? lemuria ? I'm not talking of that. submersion of land mass that were extensions of extant regions is considered a fact rather than a theory isn't it ? after all the sea level was lower back then.

If I'm not wrong tamil literature speaks of more than one instance when important places went under water. the sinking of landmass worldwide happened in a series of events spanning a few thousand years, ending about 7000 years ago IIRC. it is theorised that the english channel for example was a land bridge during the ice age. it's very likely that it was similar in India.

You're talking about Poompuhar. I think except for 1 (or 2?) Mahabalipuram shore temple, the rest have submerged.
no saarji, I'm sorry I don't remember the references but this referred to incidents much earlier ?

[naren]

submersion theory of what ? lemuria ? I'm not talking of that. submersion of land mass that were extensions of extant regions is considered a fact rather than a theory isn't it ? after all the sea level was lower back then.

That may be so. But still, IMO, it should be more like +/- 100 miles from the shore (numbers purely from my Pakistan)

As we can see from this graphic below, its highly impossible that an entire continent size land mass could have been submerged. Since we could easily detect the depth of the Ocean floor, its highly impossible that such a huge continental scale land mass would go undetected.

no saarji, I'm sorry I don't remember the references but this referred to incidents much earlier ?

I donno ji. Not an expert in Tamil literature. I'm not sure in how many places it references submerged lands. Recorded Tamil history goes back to abt 2500 years only (Sources_of_ancient_Tamil_history). Ofcourse Tamil culture is much older and we dont know yet how/where it originated. Some whackos like LTTE give their own version of Tamil history dating back to 50,000 BC. Its as good as harvesting djinn power.

[Carl_T]

The question with these topics is also, how far back does human memory stretch? If say 20,000 years ago an island was submerged due to glacial melting does that mean people will remember it and be incorporated into stories we hear today? At the same time...I suppose stories of floods and submerged lands are common to a number of peoples.

[niran]

There is a passage in Valmiki Ramayan, when Sugriv was dispatching groups of Vanars
to different parts of the world, he would describe the general Geography and Dos/Don't
He very clearly describe what today is Indonesia and the Malacca Strait where he advises them to
be careful of JalDassyu (water pirates) and to seek the help of Merchants there on how to avoid them.

though the Malacca Strait is still Pirate infested, the above information raises the question
There were merchants plying their trade, therefore there were Pirates,
if there were merchants trading with the Kingdom of Kishkindha that means the Vanars
were a civilized developed Nation with King and his Court and trade and commerce.
now i do not find modern Vanars forming a Nation complete with Armed forces Kings Courts
and trading with an oversea Nation. or do they? It must be some tribe named Vanars/ Reech
etc. etc. which was confused as real Monkeys.

[Adrija]

There is a passage in Valmiki Ramayan, when Sugriv was dispatching groups of Vanars
to different parts of the world, he would describe the general Geography and Dos/Don't
He very clearly describe what today is Indonesia and the Malacca Strait

Fascinating........did not know that. Would it be possible to give the exact reference please?

TIA

[Atri]

There is a passage in Valmiki Ramayan, when Sugriv was dispatching groups of Vanars
to different parts of the world, he would describe the general Geography and Dos/Don't
He very clearly describe what today is Indonesia and the Malacca Strait

Fascinating........did not know that. Would it be possible to give the exact reference please?

TIA

Regarding description of topography and geographical locations, one has to refer to Ramayana as earliest attempt.
When Sugriva sends vanaras in all four directions to search for seeta, the description of topography and geography of the region in all four directions by sugriva to the head of the search parties was pretty accurate and in sync with actual geography.

Description of east direction - All the way upto great ocean (Pacific) - Book 4, Chapter 39
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry314.htm
In sanskrit - http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rys/rys4039.htm

Description of South - All the way up to Antarctica (there is nothing much) - Book 4, Chapter 40
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry315.htm
In sanskrit - http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rys/rys4040.htm

Description of North - (up to desert beyond Himalayas) Either Siberia OR Gobi) - Book 4, chapter 42
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry317.htm
In sanskrit - http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rys/rys4042.htm

Description of West - Up to a point where they encounter a huge tree with 10 branches - Book 4, Chapter 41
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry316.htm
In sanskrit - http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rys/rys4041.htm

त्रिशिरा कांचन: केतुस तालस तस्य महात्मन:
स्थापित: पर्वतास्याग्रे विराजती सवेदिक: - book 4, chapter 39, verse 47

triśirāḥ kāñcanaḥ ketus tālas tasya mahātmanaḥ
sthāpitaḥ parvatasyāgre virājati savedikaḥ - same verse

translation - A shining triple-headed palm of gold springs towering from the mountain's crest.

Trident of Pisco in Peru - http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/r ... /tpod.html

Sugriva describes that people will encounter a huge and luminescent three-headed golden palm tree engraved on mountain top after crossing the great white ocean (kshirasagara). Read the description of east direction given in the link by me.. you will clearly find mention of Java, Sumatra and other islands in east until they reach a great white ocean. beyond that, sugriva says, there is this tree which was planted by gods to mark the limit of "East" direction.

careful inspection of the verses show the description of North-pole as well (Somagiri) which is a sunless realm, abode of brahma and white and glowing (northern lights, may be)...

In west, Gujarat is described (land of lions, Gir), then comes Indus, then Hindukush (Pariyatra mountain) which is realm of Gandharvas.. He describes land of 60,000 golden hills one of which has a golden palm tree with 10 heads nearby some Mount Asta (sunset)..

may be this is description of Urals.nonetheless, this is first India centric description of the world around India which is very close to reality and unlike 7 concentric islands with circular jambudvipa in the centre (from some puranas)..

I would like a map to be created based on this tremendous information to show the understanding of world from India's eyes in ancient times. If someone knows how to create map, I am ready to provide assistance with the data.

[RamaY]

Atri-ji

In the Northern path, he talks about the kingdom of Kubera etc (in the CAR/Russian regions) .

Similarly on the Southern path he talks about various mountains where different Maharshis set their abodes.



Ramayana happened in the Thireyathaya yuga i.e., nearly 1.70 million years ago. At that period it does not seem like there was a separate land mass called Srilanka. Srilanka was part of the Indian sub-continent ( refer the map and highlighted portion ) such being the case there was no need of Rama to build a bridge.

Somewhere else I heard that Ramayana did not happen in this round of Tretayuga but the one that happened 27 Mahayugas ago and one can do the math, and see what could be the locations of various races, kingdoms, and mountains mentioned in Ramayana

Below video presents the continental shifts in the past and future.
http://fragg.me/video/650-million-years-1min20

[ramana]

So maybe humans evolved quite earlier than the archaeological data indicates?

[Carl_T]

Humans 1.7 Million years back??

Regarding Lanka - I don't think we can conclusively fix Sri Lanka to be the Lanka of the Ramayana, IIRC, the distance given to Lanka in the R is a lot further than where modern SL is. To go out on a limb, this "Kumari Kandam" may be related. Lanka *I believe* just means "island" so I think it is open.

[RamaY]

There is a western researcher who did find lot of archeological artifacts dating millions of years ago. Let me dig it... He supports the cyclical nature of time (very hindu concept)

[brihaspati]

The geographical details about Lanka could again be overlays of different periods and locations. For example if people in distant future after some "qyamat" looked at fragments of narratives about York and they happen to have been restricted to a rather isolated life in continental USA (no sea-faring say) they could have grave doubts if some old stories mentioned more than 4000 kms as distance of York whereas they find ruins of a city with signs of York in Penn state.

The geological upheavals that could give rise and fell a "Lemuria" should have retained some tell-tale signs. I have tried to investigate this but have not really found much support for the dimensions claimed. There is a ridge but making it a huge landmass is problematic. Having said that, we are still essentially learning "tectonics" and many of the stuff are quite recent discovery like the complexity of the "roll-over" nature of Himalayan uprise, etc. The fact remains that the Indian plate moved north extremely fast compared to other known movements, and at some stage a kind of sinking of the oceanic basalt locally as India moved north across Tethys is not impossible. But this would be anything between roughly 45 million years to 65 million years.

If somehow this knowledge was acquired, then it could be coded into a more recent human experience deliberately as a memory device. But to equate that to presence of modern humans needs to be reasonably argued. I am afraid I have not found them. On the other hand just because we have not found evidence for something as yet, we should not declare it as unprovable for ever. Just say, that to date we have no supporting evidence.

[Atri]

Atri-ji

In the Northern path, he talks about the kingdom of Kubera etc (in the CAR/Russian regions) .

Similarly on the Southern path he talks about various mountains where different Maharshis set their abodes.

Ramayana happened in the Thireyathaya yuga i.e., nearly 1.70 million years ago. At that period it does not seem like there was a separate land mass called Srilanka. Srilanka was part of the Indian sub-continent ( refer the map and highlighted portion ) such being the case there was no need of Rama to build a bridge.

Somewhere else I heard that Ramayana did not happen in this round of Tretayuga but the one that happened 27 Mahayugas ago and one can do the math, and see what could be the locations of various races, kingdoms, and mountains mentioned in Ramayana

Below video presents the continental shifts in the past and future.
http://fragg.me/video/650-million-years-1min20

Humans (Homo sapiens) to be present 1.7 million years ago is an scientific impossibility. Earlier apes were there, not Homo sapiens. Forget the H.sapiens capable of writing OR imagining magnificent things as mentioned in the epics.

There are two views on Yuga. The literal translation of Chaturyuga description (in terms of time) is surprisingly coherent with the age of earth. In fact, Indians were the first to imagine the age of world on such wide scale (which shows their ability to accept that universe is infinite and their place in it, minuscule) and much of their estimates are suprisingly closer to modern ages. Furthermore, their allusion towards periodic destruction of the life and earth is surprisingly true with geological estimates of climate-change and subsequent destruction due to tectonics, volcanoes, ice-ages, asteroid-collisions etc. Hence the running theme that Srishti (Biosphere) is periodically destroyed and created again is true in principle.

However, this contradicts the human existence. So either, it is not the "Humans" which are described in the epics which existed for billion years along the cycle of 27 Chaturyugas, or they are purely imaginative. 1.7 million years ago, if there was a war in India, it mostly have been between few tribes of neanderthal men (comprising not more than 15-25 individuals each), who definitely did not live in golden city and won't bother to indulge in such a wasteful blood-bath over abduction of one of the female in their tribe. And nobody would have been there to see it OR remember it, because the species which has this ability to remember and record events in form of language was not evolved yet.

OR one has to accept the opinion of Sri Yukteshwar that yuga also means 2 OR 4 and satya-yuga lasts of 4800 years, Treta for 3600 years, Dwapar for 2400 year and kali for 1200 years. This is in sync with "Probable historicity" of Ramayan and Mahabharat, but not with earth's journey through fourth dimension.

IMO, it is either-or situation. We have to choose either of the interpretation which suits us in given time. From geopolitical and socio-cultural scenario today, I feel choosing 1200 years of Kaliyuga is important, which will efficiently counter the propaganda of Judaic memes regarding end of times and armageddon and promised returns of some messiahs. In this case, it is possible that urban life was present in India around 5000 BC with cities flourishing and inhabited by complex life of humans. Hence, although still a myth, it is at least biologically logical to imagine Ramayana happening in this time. Humans had gathered enough of brownie points till then to be able to imagine all sorts of things described in the epics.

So if we assume 5000 BC as probable date of Ramayana, then the description of geography is fairly accurate. I guess, one has to consider Africa as south of India too. May be, Sugriva was describing the journey to south via arabia and africa after searching for lanka.

His description of east and north is quite accurate. he is accurate about west as well (to certain extent). Hence, he was actually well-travelled fellow who knew about India and her surroundings more than Rama did. May be he never travelled as far as he described and was bluffing about the things he did not know in order to impress Raama who was holding Sugriva by his balls and was pissed off due to the delay in sending the search parties. He is accurate up to Lanka in south, Persian plateau in west, may be CAR in North and Pacific in east. His mentioning of a trident on mountain which is infact present in modern Peru is tantalizing.

But, overall one should look at the political fix he was in, at that moment.

[RamaY]

Atri-ji,

This is where the slippery slope begins I guess. If we accept the legitimacy of Ramayana only in parts, then the whole purana falls into pieces. Not that my personal feelings get hurt, but how/who will decide which parts of Ramayana are accurate reflection of historical, cultural, and most importantly civilizational reality?

Let me find that article on cyclical nature of time first.

[Atri]

Atri-ji,

This is where the slippery slope begins I guess. If we accept the legitimacy of Ramayana only in parts, then the whole purana falls into pieces. Not that my personal feelings get hurt, but how/who will decide which parts of Ramayana are accurate reflection of historical, cultural, and most importantly civilizational reality?

Let me find that article on cyclical nature of time first.

RamaY ji,

It is for us to come to conclusion, which part of the "itihaasa" is truth and which is not. As the techniques of dating get sophisticated, more and more information will be revealed. Based on that available info, we can remove the parts which are obviously hyperbole and exaggerated.

For example, description of Jambudwipa as centre of 7 concentric islands (continents) which is described in Puranas is obviously out of question to be taken as truth. However this description of India's neighbourhood by Sugriva shows realistic and accurate understanding of geography by Sugriva (or at least the author of the epic).

There are few archaeological indicators which are now hinting towards historicity of MBH war. If we consider the descriptions of nuclear weapons (brahmastra) as exaggerative along with numbers (18 akshauhini = 40 lakh elite warriors seems to be too much for population constraints of the times in 3000 BC), there seems to be a great deal of truth in that story. The characters can be assumed to exist, once the war and other geographical events (floods of Ganga, receding Saraswati etc) is proven in accordance to the descriptions in the standard texts.. The least common factor in the itihasa needs to be taken as truth. As the evidences are collected, more and more of the story will come under the domain of actuality.

Even in Puranas, there are many incidences which show the historicity. Matsya-Avatara, for example. Forget the giant-fish, but the flood and huge boat is the recurring motif of every ancient civilization. This actually relates to last Ice-age which ended about 8000-7000 BC.

Of course, I await the article..

[Adrija]

Atriji, thanks for that........amazing information actually.

As an aside to the subsequent conversations, I believe astrological dating of Rama's birth points to ~5000 BC, and the same astrological principles date the Mahabharatha war at ~3300 BC............ will try to dig up that article, it was in The Pioneer a year or so back IIRC

[niran]

Fascinating........did not know that. Would it be possible to give the exact reference please?

TIA

the book is "Valmiki Ramayan" from Geeta Press
it is in 2 parts. each costing around 150 INR.
i cannot scan it, since SHQ will not allow it to be near
apavitra scanner and computer.

one more thing WRT the discussion whether Vanars were Humans or Monkeys.

when Sugriv finished forming and advising the search party
He rallies them with "Rise Vanars and do the Purusharth expected of ye"
now the word Purusharth is used in context of Humans, no animals can
do the Purusharth, they can only do Parishrum. That makes Vanar jaati
as some Human Tribe IMVHO.

[Sanku]

IMO, it is either-or situation. We have to choose either of the interpretation which suits us in given time.

No sir, its not either or situation. Indian cosmology and timescales are of cycles with repeated sub-cycles.

What if there is a major and minor cycle of the same name? A fractal pattern, recursively same and correct?

What if they were trying to describe the world in a concept like fractals?

I too have been looking for the paper on natural astronomical cycles and Indian time lines.

[Rahul M]

very interesting idea, fractals or not, two different time cycles with same name is not unthinkable at all. may be medhi sir will be able to help you regarding Indian astronomical cycles ?

[RamaY]

Atriji, thanks for that........amazing information actually.

As an aside to the subsequent conversations, I believe astrological dating of Rama's birth points to ~5000 BC, and the same astrological principles date the Mahabharatha war at ~3300 BC............ will try to dig up that article, it was in The Pioneer a year or so back IIRC

Unless the calculations are extremely precise the astronomical alignments happen in cyclical manner

There are 27 stars, 12 lunar-months, frequent Adhikamasas, 60 years, and so on - everything is cyclical. {I owe ramanaji a summary on one of the astronomical books I read recently and it explains the larger cycle of ~26000 years based on earth's precision-of-equinox}

So even various astrological combinations (planets, raasis, lagnas etc) can repeat.

[RamaY]

Thank you Sanku-ji.

This is my theory {so no proofs or references}.

A great Tsunami/Asteroid type of cataclysmic event happened circa ~3000BC; which had a global impact. All the civilizations perished to the greater extent as most of them existed on river deltas. Only the mountain dwelling tribes survived.

All major knowledge centers and technologies too got destroyed in that event. This is similar to a modern nation/society losing all their technology/knowledge advances if all major urban/industrial etc centers are nuked.

After the event the original Abraham (or whoever that is) perceived it as God's punishment for all the ills of the society while extolling certain virtues. The rest of the society sees it as an acceptable philosophy and moves on with it. This is similar to INC claiming sekoolarism as the solution to Indian social/political evolution. Since it contains some virtues of pluralism, which are the essence of majority culture, it becomes an acceptable structure, even though key minority systems do not buy into that structure as it has fundamental differences with their belief systems. {No disrespect meant to anyone/thing}

SD knowledge survived this apocalypse because of its tradition of Vanaprastha/Samnyasa. The rishis lived away from the major civilization centers often in mountain regions (it is said that there are three Siddhabhoomis in Bharat - Himalayas, Srisailam, and Arunachalam; where Siddha purushas are doing penance even today in superhuman-dimensions). That is why SD maintained the memory of ancient knowledge today.

Assuming this, it is very much possible for Vedas to be the paramount knowledge for entire earth; as there are no abrahamic-type faiths at that point. Here Vedas being the knowledge repository that is life-style agnostic, and recommends reverence towards all forms of living/non-living being, and offers self-realization at individual level so on.

Here the sapta-samudras could be the sapta-matrukas {that represent Shakti in Siva-Sakti interplay} used to create the universe; Jambudwipa being the lowest 4D reality.

That Jambudwipa has all human/non-human civilizations as part of it. That is why Kubera could be a Hindu king/deity living in CAR/Russia region and so on. And Some maharshi might have his hermitage in Peru. That is the "Vasudhaika Kutumbam" and any enmity/fight is between individuals or dharmas and not between civilizations?

While people cannot believe the possibility of wars involving 3-4 million armies circa 3000BC, there are few standing archeological sites (Pyramids, Angotkarvat, Mayan pyramids etc) which are individual projects requiring tens of thousands of workers working on a single site/project. Compare this with a reliance refinery of 10-20,000 employees and India's standing army of 1+ million and another 2+ million paramilitary+CRPF+Police etc forces. Mahabharat war involves most of the Eurasia region and 3-4 million total army is not that unimaginable.

On the cyclical concept of time - I came across this paper ~4-5 years ago. My laptop-harddisk crashed two days ago (talk about coincidence). I am actively searching for it and will post it as soon as I find it. In that paper that archeologist had pictures of various artifacts dating millions of years and he talks about the layers of archeological findings. In one example he talks about a finding of two artifacts where one dated ~2-3000BC where as the other one showed Million+ year in carbon dating. He says people took the 2-3000BC date calling the second test as some aberration.

And I noticed the same approach in the astronomical book I mentioned above. The author dates a specific mention of astronomical event in Aitereya Brahmana to be either 1500BC or 15000BC (Some Ashada Suddha Padyami being the Ugadi=new year day or something like that) and takes the 1500BC date because 15000BC is not feasible without giving any reason/logic.

The starting of lunar year changes 1 day for every <1 degree movement in earth's precision-of-equinox that takes nearly 70 years (~26000 years / 360 degrees). So the tidhi mentioned in lunar calender repeats every so often.

... Just some random thoughts.

[RamaY]

The astronomical book I am going to summarize shows a reverse migration (opposite to AIT) where the Indics/Indic-knowledge migrating in all other directions. That is why we see the similarities between Indic and other mythologies starting at different points (dates are not accurate, will give them later)

Indic >> Greek ~3000 BC
Indic >> ME ~ 2000BC
Indic >> China ~5000 BC
... and so on.

[Atri]

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00287.html - Astronomical dating of Mahabharat

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23133909/The- ... P-V-Vartak - Astronomical dating of Ramayan

[Sridhar K]

Rahul M/Naren

IIRC, there is reference in Tamil literature to Kumari Kandam where Tamil thrived with the first few tamil sangams. The first two sangams were in then Madurai (South Madurai in the submerged Kumari kandam) and the last one in Vada madurai (north Madurai or today's Madurai). Perhaps Stan saar may be able to throw more light.