Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Keshav
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

SwamyG wrote:Oh I missed this lovely thread. Growing up Kauravas were my favorite. I never took a liking for the Pandavas. Karna remains my favorite. And though I like BG, I am not a big fan of Arjuna or Krishna. I need to catch up on all the posts.
In Greek or Shakespearian drama, Karna would have fit in perfectly. His flawed birth and tragic life of fate are key elements but in the Indian tradition he is given a happy ending.

I never really knew much about the Kauravas growing up. Much of the characterization they're given (with the exception of Duryodhana) in ACK is not great. Other than Bhisma, Drona, Duryodhana, Karna, and Shakuni, I don't even know any of the other Kauravas.

Bheema was my ultimate favorite from a very young age for obvious reasons.

The best story for Arjuna pre-Kurukshetra is attempt to gain divine weapons from Shiva. This theme of the hero leaving the main drama to collect weapons for upcoming battle is pretty universal.

Can't understand why you didn't like Krishna. For me, he always seemed like the only person you could actually emulate in real life. The whole story of him growing up poor and working his way up to king of Dwaraka was always a big favorite of mine.

Actually, come to think of it, the first ACKs I ever remember reading were "Sati and Shiva" and "Kumbhakarna" so the MB characters actually came much later. Now, the Ramayana seems far too simplistic compared to MB which has so much more to offer the adult reader.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

arya some of the paintings you posted, reminded me of ganjifa paintings.

Image
anantha roopa

raghupati bhatta is the most celebrated ganjifa artiste.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Arya Sumantra »

shaardula wrote:arya some of the paintings you posted, reminded me of ganjifa paintings.
I thought ganjifa were circular playing cards and accordingly the paintings were circular too
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Tilak »

harbans wrote:2 excellent versions of the Bhagavad Gita by foreign authors are Christopher Isherwood and Edwin Arnold. Both are almost a century old, i feel they are amongst the best i have read. Epics cannot replace the content of the Shruti in Indian philosophy. The Shruti is the progenitor. Ved itself means wisdom, and if you look at the English part of it a little, you'll realize it literally or entymologically really does originate from it.. :mrgreen:
http://librivox.org/bhagavad-gita-by-sir-edwin-arnold/

http://www.bartleby.com/45/4/1.html
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ChandraS »

Ah, good to be back from a vacation and see that this thread is still on track!! Anyways in keeping with Ramana saar's request to post weblinks, here is one on the Panchatantra - http://panchatantra.org/
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by sivabala »

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm

This site is a good source of old books and texts.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SaiK »

Keshav wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Oh I missed this lovely thread. Growing up Kauravas were my favorite. I never took a liking for the Pandavas. Karna remains my favorite. And though I like BG, I am not a big fan of Arjuna or Krishna. I need to catch up on all the posts.
In Greek or Shakespearian drama, Karna would have fit in perfectly. His flawed birth and tragic life of fate are key elements but in the Indian tradition he is given a happy ending...
:eek: flawed!!!!!!!!?? as against the pandavas:

all of the pandavas fathered by some one other than pandu.
:evil:
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

From some of the previous posts, I saw the questions about the timeline for Mahabharatha and I believe it was around 15,000 B.C.The Human civilization started from India and people migrated from there.The reason for the different color and shape is that over a period of time at different locations,owing to the differing climatic conditions and the language spoken,gave shape to different kinds of people.

This knowledge is from the Divine Mother Parashakti.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Can't understand why you didn't like Krishna. For me, he always seemed like the only person you could actually emulate in real life. The whole story of him growing up poor and working his way up to king of Dwaraka was always a big favorite of mine.
MB is so vast, fascinating and illuminating, and dissecting it would just leave me tired. But ishtill....

In answering this, I hope to keep the following RoE:
<<Discussion on people, personalities, characters and their action in the form of commentary and critiques are very much appreciated but character assassination will not be tolerated.>>
BG is truly a motivational manual. And I like the message. I am no expert on MB and have not done intense dissection of the characters. Based on the story line, Krishna just does not appeal to me much. The character had lots of arrogance attached to it.
The way I read is that since he was related to both Pandavas and Kauravas he became a stakeholder in the drama. He picked his side, and helped them win. So from a human angle I can appreciate that. But from the divine angle I can not. Considering that this was thousands of years ago, there were very thin differences between the two families. Noble families have supposed to have fought with each other. Arjuna's character had lots of haughtiness to it, so he was no different from Karna. All the princes had characteristics pertaining to nobility.

So in spite of the messenger, I like the message.

And he had a major role in defeating my favorites - especially Karna, so how can I like him :-)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

One Simple message from the Mahabharata

Arjuna= We the humans.

Krishna= The Divine.

Chariot= Our Life.

Keeping your faith in the Divine, your life will be Charioted by him to Victory no matter what.

When Arjuna asks Lord Krishna why he has to kill his fellow people,Krishna shows him the past,present and the future
and asks him to perform his duty as the Destiny has already been written. But you may ask can we change destiny. Yes,we still have the 10% free will to change it.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

We have a very common story in Telugu. I found this story retold by Shri Mavuduru Suryanarayana Murthy in current context.

{Source: http://andhrabhoomi.net/comment.html Site doesn’t archive}

The story with the commentary:
A King has seven sons. All of them went hunting. And got seven Fish. And they put them in sun to dry them. This is first part.
1. All seven sons went hunting indicating our culture that every able person in the house must work. The system doesn’t allow some people to live off of others’ hardwork.
2. Seven prince got seven fish which is very important point in the story. Kings going for hunting generally indicates hunting of animals. But here we can see even fishermen can become kings in our system.

Not only that. They brought seven fish ONLY. Take only what you need from nature. This nature is not your property. Enjoy what you need. Remaining wealth belongs to other life systems. Esavasyopanishad says “Eat what you need. You do not have any right on the rest. That belongs to God-conciousness”. What better socialism exists than this?
The second part is
One fish out of the seven didn’t dry.
Fish – why didn’t you dry > grass covered me.
Grass – why did you shadowed on the fish > Cow didn’t eat me.
Cow – why didn’t you eat grass > The servant didn’t unleash me.
Servant – Why didn’t you unleash the cow > Mom didn’t feed me.
Mom – Why didn’t you feed the boy > the baby cried.
Baby – Why did you cry > Ant bit me.
Ant – Why did you bit the boy?

This is second part.
It is a small ant that bit the boy. For such a small thing, by showing baby’s cry, the Servant was not given food. This is Adharma. Who caused Adharma here? Grass/Cow/Servant/ or the fish that didn’t dry?
Everyone tried to push the blame on to the other person and it came to the small Ant.
Third Part

Ant – Why did you bit the boy > Because the baby put his finger in my house.
This is the epitome of this story.

That small ant has the self-respect to protect its house. It is living its miniscule life but did not hesitate to protect its existence. If anyone disturbs its house, it bites. Not to kill the person. But to save its existence. However small it is, the ant tried to do whatever it can to warn the intruder.

Look around us. Numerous terror attacks doesn’t awaken us. Many external forces are interfering in our civilizational matters and cultural matters. But we are not even showing the existence that little ant showed in the story.

To awaken this civilization we should become the ants that protect our existence and self-respect.

In the old days seers/munis used to carry Dharma-Danda and show the Dharmic path to Raja-Danda. During pattabisheka time the purohita makes the Raja say “Adandyosmi = I cannot be punished” three times. Then a seer (raja guru) would hit him with Dharma Danda and says “Dharma Dondyosi = You will be punished by Dharma Danda”.

Today only Raja Danda is there. Dharma Danda has gone. The Dharma Danda people have in their hands is “Vote”.

Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitah (Dharma protects the one who protects it)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

Raghav K wrote:When Arjuna asks Lord Krishna why he has to kill his fellow people,Krishna shows him the past,present and the future and asks him to perform his duty as the Destiny has already been written. But you may ask can we change destiny. Yes,we still have the 10% free will to change it.
I never really thought Krishna ever meant that. What would be the point of having this giant drama if the whole point of the story was that we couldn't really change anything? Only 10%, really? Bro, you need to start expecting more! :lol:

In my mind, he just did it to motivate Arjuna who probably didn't understand the Gita to begin with. The only thing Arjuna needed to hear from Krishna was that everything was going to be alright and that he wasn't going to Hell for that long.

In fact, if you read further in MB, Arjuna goes back to Krishna after the war and tells him he forgot what he told him! Krishna then goes on with another much less famous Gita, reiterating the points from the original one.
SwamyG wrote:Based on the story line, Krishna just does not appeal to me much. The character had lots of arrogance attached to it.
That is one thing I have noticed about Krishna. He does seem like a know-it-all. But his humanity comes out in certain aspects of the story such as his flirtations with the gopis, the dialogue between him and Bheema after the death of Ghatotkacha, not preventing Arjuna from killing Karna, etc.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by harbans »

Rahavji, it's not that one does not have free will. But one acts because of compulsions within. We may not fathom it, but a saying goes..one cannot keep a good man down. Come what may his or her abilites emerge in some form and influence the cycle of events. What Krishna says to Arjuna is like India's present predicament. We don't want war with pakistan becasue we know it will entail destruction. But the cycle of events ultimately will force India's hands even if Arundhoti Roy were India's PM. Events will always force your will to act. Now which way one acts depends on which side of Dharma one is on. One may delay acting by a few seconds, minutes, years, a decade or 2..but one will act according to one's Dharma. That has already been established. So one may be a good, honest hardworking sincere Paki, does'nt matter. Being on the side of Adharma is saliently wrong. The laws of Karma don't take too well on that. That was my interpretation..JMT
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by harbans »

That is one thing I have noticed about Krishna. He does seem like a know-it-all.

Gaze, then, thou Son of Prithâ! I manifest for thee Those hundred thousand thousand shapes that clothe my Mystery: 15 I show thee all my semblances, infinite, rich, divine, My changeful hues, my countless forms. See! in this face of mine, Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Aswins, and Maruts; see Wonders unnumbered, Indian Prince! revealed to none save thee. Behold! this is the Universe!—Look! what is live and dead 20 I gather all in one—in Me! Gaze, as thy lips have said, On GOD ETERNAL, VERY GOD! See ME! see what thou prayest!

http://www.bartleby.com/45/4/11.html

I don’t think he is being arrogant. He is manifesting himself as GOD. So if Krishna is telling Arjuna he is GOD the Supreme being that everyone worships, he is not really being arrogant. Just truthful. Read up the last chapter in a chronological manner. Krishna is very humble indeed and some verses thank the readers..very humble of God. 
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanjay M »

Someone came up with a machinima version of the Dance of Nataraja:

http://www.examiner.com/x-4734-Second-L ... raja-video


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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

harbans wrote:I don’t think he is being arrogant. He is manifesting himself as GOD. So if Krishna is telling Arjuna he is GOD the Supreme being that everyone worships, he is not really being arrogant. Just truthful. Read up the last chapter in a chronological manner. Krishna is very humble indeed and some verses thank the readers..very humble of God. 
:rotfl:

Yes, I suppose if one is God saying that you're God really is truthful and not arrogant!

But I was making the comment from the viewpoint of the common person in the Mahabharata. Technically, only a select few people knew about Krishna being an avatar - most of them, including most of his enemies just thought he was some haughty Yadava prince.

The one difference between Hindu/Vedic heroes and Western heroes is that Western heroes are defined by their magic powers and their relation to divinity but Hindu heroes all have magic powers and the only difference between divinity and the human is Dharma. This melds perfectly with Vedanta and the idea that we are all divine but fail to realize it.

Even a common person who meditates and does penance will receive a boon from Brahma.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

Let me explain some of the myths,

Heaven and Hell

do not exist somewhere in outerspace.They are right here. Heaven is being close to Divine and this may happen even without knowing GOD exists and following the path of Dharma. Hell is being away from the Divine and we experience it as we Live.

Angels and Demons or Devas and Asuras.

are inside us. The biggest Asura or Demon is Ignorance. That is why we pray Lord Ganesha, to remove the obastacles, the obstacle being our Ignorance. The other asuras being hate,jealousy etc and all the negative attributes.

When we think of a demon, we imagine a ugly looking person. The ugly needs to be of the attribute and not the shape.We may be killed by bad people but ONLY THE ASURAS IN US CAN KILL THE SOUL.

When i meant the 10% freewill, it is the will to conquer the Asuras in us and change our path of destiny by moving closer to heaven.We will be going through this cycle of birth and death till we reach that path.

Lord Krishna is the sacrificial lamb who is within all of us. Mahabharata showed us the path to survive.It is like a reference point or a written Justice system. There are errors in every system and Keshav, I pity for you that you try to look only for the errors.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

OT post.
Last edited by Rahul M on 21 Apr 2009 12:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: raghav, please read the first post. this thread is NOT for discussing religion.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by jamwal »

RamaY wrote:We have a very common story in Telugu. I found this story retold by Shri Mavuduru Suryanarayana Murthy in current context.
Very enlightening post RamaY saar.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

Raghav K wrote:Lord Krishna is the sacrificial lamb who is within all of us. Mahabharata showed us the path to survive.It is like a reference point or a written Justice system. There are errors in every system and Keshav, I pity for you that you try to look only for the errors.
I was raised with a religious and scientific background but I never really had any faith. Most of faith has to do with certain hormones and is primarily an emotional response or an aspect of a person's upbringing.

I don't really have much faith that God(s) exist but I think Hindu culture is pretty sweet. As I've said above, I think Krishna is a neat character.

I just don't like to think of him as God. For me, there are contradictions that cannot be explained and to be honest I think he becomes more heroic as a human than as an avatar. If he's God, you expect him to do everything he does, but if he's human, everything he does is an immense achievement.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ChandraS »

Raghav K and Keshav - Discuss your beliefs but don't make it personal please (just an observation only, things seem to be inching towards that road) TIA. Both of you have made some excellent posts. It would be a pity to lose any of you to petty things like this.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

Folks, I wanted to share the meaning of Akshaya Tritiya. On this day anything you do for a good cause, the return and effect will be 100 fold.

Akshaya (meaning Never-Ending, or that which never diminishes) Tritiya (the Third Day of Shuklapaksha (Waxing Moon)) in the Vishaka Month is regarded as the day of eternal success. The Sun and Moon are both in exalted position, or simultaneously at their peak of brightness, on this day, which occurs only once every year. The entire day is considered auspicious. Any Pooja or good deed (such as feeding the poor, donating money to charity, etc.) you perform on this day is a hundred-fold effective.

Akshaya Tritiya falling on a Rohini (Lord Krishna's Birth Star) day is considered more auspicious (as it does on Monday, April 27, 2009).

This day is also widely celebrated as Parusurama Jayanti, in honor of Parasurama - the Sixth incarnation of Lord Maha Vishnu. Lord Kubera, who is the keeper of wealth for Goddess Maha Lakshmi, is said to himself pray to the Goddess on this day. Lord Maha Vishnu and his Avatars, Goddess Maha Lakshmi and Lord Kubera are worshipped on Akshaya Tritiya. Reciting the Vishnua Sahasranama, performing Lakshmi Pooja & Kubera Lakshmi Pooja are common on this day.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Two posts in the Non Western World view thread by GSwamy:
SwamyG wrote:A neglected Precursor to Classical Economics

It is about how classical economics thoughts of Kautilya were for long neglected.
and

SwamyG wrote:Management fundamentals in Kautilya's Arthashastra
Seven set of articles on the management principles found in Arthasastra.
can be in the Indian Economy thread too.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Najunamar »

In the context of "Aham Brahmasmi" or "Thatthavamasi" - I am reminded of the story of Somasi Mara Nayanaar described in the PeriyaPuraanam of Sekkizhaar. The story goes that Somasi Mara Nayanaar (SMN from now on) convinced Sundaramurthy Nayanaar (SN) to get Lord Shiva Himself to come to his Soma Yaaga (hence Somayaaji - aka Somasi) and get the oblations. Shiva came in the form of a Chandaala (low caste person) with dogs (Vedas in the form of dogs a la Adhi Shankara's experience when he sang the Maneeksha Panchagam). All the other priests ran away cursing the Chandaala despite SMN's protests that it was the Lord Himself. Popular lore goes to this day, in the place where they did the Yaga Brahmins are barred from participating in yagas since Shiva cursed them for their narrow minded bigotry.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

Folks, one more symbolic meaning from the Mahabharata about Lord Krishna is the relation between his flute and the 16,000 Gopikas.

The Flute symbolizes the music to remind us to come to him i.e. the Paramathma. Gopikas symbolizes the Atman or our soul. Lord Krishna is telling us that after we go through samsara our soul needs to merge with him and he is calling us through his flute.Whenever we show our deep love and affection towards him like the Gopikas,shedding all our egos,he will take us back leaving us away from this cycle of birth.To summarize

Lord Krishna= Paramathma.
Gopikas= Atman (our souls)
Flute=Music to attract us.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

Another myth is about Idol worship.We wonder how we can get boons from a stone. But actually it is very scientific.

The stone or idol is similar to our physical mobile phone,but since the phone cannot work without a sim card,similarly before the Idol is placed, an Yantra is placed below this idol. The Yantra which is a Metal object will be energized by chanting prayers by inviting cosmic forces. This Cosmic energy is kept alive by frequently chanting the Hymns or prayers.This is very scientific and nothing superstitious.This is the reason, some temples are more powerful as the Guru Energizing the Yantra is very important.

For example Yanthra Prathishta was carried out individually at each temple by Adi shankara who is a historically verifyable saint considered to be an Avathar of Lord Shiva. The Sreechakra Yanthram was prepared by Adishankara and was placed by him at the two bhagawathy temples and likewise in addition to establishing the rituals at Guruvayur, ADI Shankara also carried out the Yanthra Prathishta at this temple.

On a side note, Puri Jagannath symbolizes Baby Krishna, the idol made of wood. You will observe that his eyes are always wide open. This symbolizes his desire to Watch his devotees at all times.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rony »

One of the most beautifully sung Hanuman Chalisa by Balakrishna Prasad of Tirupathi, Andhra.The technical correctness and the devotion with which he sung this song is to be heard to be beleived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8pNbBXyLo
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Prem »

Shiva Tandava Strotram etc
Magic of chants in Sanskrit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McrjgeI- ... re=related

All 3 Parts worth listening

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkB4hqr ... re=related
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SaiK »

Raghav K
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Raghav K »

Rony wrote:One of the most beautifully sung Hanuman Chalisa by Balakrishna Prasad of Tirupathi, Andhra.The technical correctness and the devotion with which he sung this song is to be heard to be beleived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8pNbBXyLo
Thank you for posting,Rony.

Lord Hanuman is an Avatar of Shiva-Shakthi. His tail signifies Shakthi and this is the reason it was so powerful so as to burn Lanka.Without Shakthi, Shiva would be powerless or Shava.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by bhargava »

Rony wrote:One of the most beautifully sung Hanuman Chalisa by Balakrishna Prasad of Tirupathi, Andhra.The technical correctness and the devotion with which he sung this song is to be heard to be beleived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8pNbBXyLo
On the same subject, this rendering of the chalisa from MS is also beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ifQJv22G90
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Anabhaya »

This Cosmic energy is kept alive by frequently chanting the Hymns or prayers.This is very scientific and nothing superstitious.
:lol:

I really did love this thread until I came up to this bit here. Sir, no offence intended but can you keep such views away from this forum. Some unwashed abdul is going to walk in and say 'prove it' and we'd all have to look like idiots.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by BajKhedawal »

Recently I came across a term “Kerala Tantric Tradition” a few times and did not know what it means. Can the gurus here shed some light on what it means when someone says “……… puja will be conducted in Kerala Tantric style

Thanks!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

Keshav wrote:
Raghav K wrote:Lord Krishna is the sacrificial lamb who is within all of us. Mahabharata showed us the path to survive.It is like a reference point or a written Justice system. There are errors in every system and Keshav, I pity for you that you try to look only for the errors.
I was raised with a religious and scientific background but I never really had any faith. Most of faith has to do with certain hormones and is primarily an emotional response or an aspect of a person's upbringing.

I don't really have much faith that God(s) exist but I think Hindu culture is pretty sweet. As I've said above, I think Krishna is a neat character.

I just don't like to think of him as God. For me, there are contradictions that cannot be explained and to be honest I think he becomes more heroic as a human than as an avatar. If he's God, you expect him to do everything he does, but if he's human, everything he does is an immense achievement.
keshav , it is certain that you haven't read Bhagvad Gita,or even if read then with error prone eyes.
It is very unfortunate for some people that they do not believe in God and then try to mould the characters as they like.They wontbe able to learn what such sacred texts offer.
Both traits are mentioned in Gita and also why such things happens with few.
Although I am not an authority on religion, but I don't care to make others believe in certain principles and God.
It will be very lucky for God believers to have more and more people not believe in God,as their chances of becoming privileged ones increases :)
and for those who cannot understand the phenomena or just want to show that they are special ones to neglect it, are always in loss, no matter how much they have learnt from still developing science and human knowledge

____________________________
This thread or BRF in general is not the place to discuss your particular belief systems.
Passing judgement on others' beliefs is even more unwelcome.
keshav, that goes for you too, kindly keep away from comments that lead to posts like the above(which I'm not editing in this case as an example)
Rahul.
Last edited by Rahul M on 04 Jun 2009 03:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: comment added.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

Anabhaya wrote:
Raghav K wrote:This Cosmic energy is kept alive by frequently chanting the Hymns or prayers.This is very scientific and nothing superstitious.
:lol:

I really did love this thread until I came up to this bit here. Sir, no offence intended but can you keep such views away from this forum. Some unwashed abdul is going to walk in and say 'prove it' and we'd all have to look like idiots.

second this.

Raghav, this thread has been kept alive in spite of some opposition. kindly follow anabhaya's lead and don't make comments that are not strictly related to the topic title.

if any scripture says so, quote it. but personal beliefs has no place in this thread.
Rahul.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bhartrhari's Nitisataka translated by M.R. Kale!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

Very interesting Discussion

We are all curious to know about the past and to predict the future and lead a happy life.We all want to preserve narratives from the past that are palatable to us or provide some valuable or even eternal truths to pursue in life which makes life better for us,our family or our communities.

These narratives are remembered over generations and they tell us the good guys and bad guys from 'our' perspectives.This as much true of Judaism or Islam as 'Hindu' traditions.

Inevitably,'GOD' looms large in these narratives and we remember how GOD supported the righteous and vanquished the evil.

But 'Hinduism' is unique because it records events over a longer period of time,over larger areas and also perhaps people of greater diversity and also greater 'cultural' accomplishments.Also the shades of grey are more prominent.

So we have widely differing accounts like the Itihaasas(relatively tight accounts of princely people in North India),Puranaas(catering to a milieu spread all over India and even extra cosmic dimensions),Sthala puranas(extremely localised versions),oral histories,hagiological traditions accepted by specific traditions(Ramanuja/azhwars-tamil flavour,Basava-karnataka,Chaitanya-Bengal,Sikh Gurus-Punjab) and also Vedic 'mythology'

These huge mass of beliefs are *sometimes* even mutually anatagonistic.All these have repurcussions for modern society/identity.

The existence of Hinduism is because of the great movement-Which we call as the Upanishads which provide the cornerstone of our beliefs-One Iswara,Karma,Upaasana-Bhakthi,Jnana etc,Atman,Brahman,the tradition of introspection,reflection and Contemplation.

Sri Suka in his final sermon to Parikshit :"O King,Look at the vast sky filled with infinite stars.How vain is the tale of kings who were born and become dust.How ephemeral their lives were.The episodes of Bhagavatottamas recounted here are only for turning our minds to Hari,the Supreme.

PS: Hari howsever interpreted by the various Sampradayas.

My two cents.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svinayak »

http://www.celextel.org/

Welcome to Vedanta Spiritual Library!

You would be able to read Bhagavad Gita, Brahma-Sutra, 108+ Upanishads, Stotras, Hymns, other Vedanta Literature, Spiritual Books and Hindu Scriptures here.

Celextel has created this site with good intention of making the Indian Spiritual Books available to the spiritual seekers. It has taken us many years for rendering these books in this online format. Celextel does not hold copyright of many of these Texts. Please refer to the published books for the Original Sanskrit Text and Commentary.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

RamaY wrote:
SaiK wrote:i think question is not that vali needs punishment, but why ram has to hide and do it. he could have openly come out and shot him. he has solid reasons to kill vali, but why hide was the question. this is where the answer is not emphatic.

is it that ram might lose half his strength by not hiding?
I cannot give a convincing answer to you. You must ask some learned person. I will let you know if I find the answer.
Saik-garu,

One example from a speech I was listening the other day reminded me of our discussion. See if it makes sense and kindly do not get offended.
Logic (Tarka) must have proper context and approach. Otherwise it becomes Kutarka.

Long time ago, a student came to a gurukula to learn Tarka-shastra (logic). His teacher was very famous for that subject and glad to welcome this very intelligent and eager student.

One day the guru-patni sent him to the oil-mill to get some fresh oil.

When the student reached the oil-mill (in the old days the oil-mills used to have a grinder which was run by bull power. The bull would walk around the mill in circles and the grinder extracts oil – In Telugu we call this Ganuga), the mill-owner was ready to start a fresh round of grinding. He knows our famous guruji and has lot of respect for him.

The student requested him for a pint of fresh oil. The mill-owner requested the student to wait so he can give fresh oil for the revered guru’s purpose. And started the grind mill. He put the stuff (dry coconut pieces or dried peanuts or dry sesame seeds) and directed the bull to start the rotation.

Our logic student sat on the side and observing the oil extraction process. Suddenly he had a doubt. He asked the mill-owner, dear sir why did you put a bell in the bulls neck?

The mill owner patiently explained him that he would sit on the beam of the mill so he can put extra wait on the grinder and sometimes falls asleep due to the coziness (slow and swing like) of the mill rotations. The bell would make nice sound as long as the bull is walking and would stop if the bull stops. Even if he doesn’t wakeup, his wife (who is doing her chores somewhere in the house) can wake him up to continue the work.

Our student is satisfied for now and moves back to his seat. But his mind wouldn’t stop analyzing the situation. Suddenly he gets another doubt.

Dear sir, what if the bull stops rotating, but just moves her head so that the bell continues to ring?

The mill owner realized the futility of reasoning. He answers, dear sir, my bull is not a logic student like you, so for now it doesn’t do that. I request you to leave as soon as possible with this fresh oil so my bull doesn’t learn that logic from you.
Perhaps our discussion on vali-vadha reached that stage.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

RamaY Gaaru,

The issue of Vaali Vadha is a thorny issue for all of us who are Rama Bhaktas.

Sir,
You have most lucidly set forth the arguments given by Sri Rama himself in the Valmiki Ramayana.The kernel of this argument is Vaali had done a greivous sin knowingly of enjoying Sugreeva's wife *even* after knowing Sugreevas innocence.Therefore Vaali was deserving of punishment.And Vaali thanks Sri Rama for punishing him(Vaali),thereby releasing Vaali of his sins.This is very much consistent with Sanatana Dharma.The sinner is repentant and has no qualms about the punishment meted out to him.

Also Sugreeva is rendered justice.

Neverthless, Rama Bhakthas ('immature ' may be)cannot help wondering why Sri Rama could not have effected a better way to resolve this issue.For Vaali has no issues with Sri Rama.The standard theology is ,had Sri Rama presented himself before Vaali then Vaali would have done Saranagathi to the Lord and Sri Rama would not have been able to fulfill his promise to Sugreeva.

I think the Vaali Vadha represents the crux of Sanatana Dharma.How our concept of Avataras and Iswara differ from other faiths.

Sri Rama and Sri Krishnas are manifestations of Iswara,yet 'our 'bhakthi' does not make us blind or narrow.While we fervently believe in Avataras,we also believe in the Iswara who is not not limited by space and time.
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