Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

BajKhedawal
BRFite
Posts: 1182
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 10:08
Location: Is it ethical? No! Is it Pakistani? Yes!

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby BajKhedawal » 02 Mar 2014 08:04

Was it Sage Parshuram who is reputed to kick a rock to extract a stream of water?

Thanks in advance.

gandharva
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 30 Jan 2008 23:22

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby gandharva » 04 Mar 2014 08:05

One reason why Balochistan should be seperate from Pakistan

Balochistan’s Hinglaj Mata Temple

http://thebalochhal.com/2013/10/01/the- ... ta-temple/

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1524
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Sumeet » 10 Mar 2014 16:56

Anyone who has interest in Madhvacarya's Dvaita vedanta can find this best explanation of Madhva philosophy written in english from Dr. BNK Sharma in his Philosophy of Madhvacarya online over here:

http://michaelsudduth.com/wp-content/up ... charya.pdf

gandharva
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 30 Jan 2008 23:22

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby gandharva » 11 Mar 2014 05:04

Image

Phallism: A Description of the Worship of Lingam-yoni in Various Parts of the World
Year 1889. pp 55
https://archive.org/details/phallismadescri00jenngoog

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 16 Mar 2014 09:44

similar to switching of elder vs. younger brother role for ganapthy and karthikeya, there is an elder bro to younger bro switch for shakuni and gandari, between tamil and hindi versions of shivam and mahabarat resp.

? why such variation in seniority between naarth and saawth?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Mar 2014 03:43

Bji, What is the constant referenece to Nagas in Sanathan Dharma? What is the code here? Indubitably they refer to snakes.

it cant be modern nagas who are really named after Burmese word "Nakka" as the used to have nose piercings.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Mar 2014 04:32

gandharva wrote:One reason why Balochistan should be seperate from Pakistan

Balochistan’s Hinglaj Mata Temple

http://thebalochhal.com/2013/10/01/the- ... ta-temple/



I heard that Allasani Peddanna, the poet laureate of Krishna Devaraya's court, worte about Hinglaj Mata in his work "Manucharitra" describing the various forms of Mata.


There is an ashram in Varanasi dedicated to her. Will post tomorrow.

panduranghari
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3778
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 19 Mar 2014 05:01

Nilesh ji

Plz check your e khat account.

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 19 Mar 2014 22:58

Interesting hair colour in this verse from Shrimad Bhagavatam 10.70.32 -

श्री शुक उवाच -
राज-दूते ब्रुवत्येवं
देवर्षिः परमद्युतिः ।
बिभ्रत् पिङ्ग-जटा-भारं
प्रादुरासीद् यथा रविः ॥

Shuka said: "When the kings' messenger had thus spoken, the devarshi Narada suddenly appeared. Bearing a mass of golden matted locks on his head, the supremely effulgent sage entered like the brilliant sun."

Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 19 Mar 2014 23:10

Agnimitra wrote:Interesting hair colour in this verse from Shrimad Bhagavatam 10.70.32 -

श्री शुक उवाच -
राज-दूते ब्रुवत्येवं
देवर्षिः परमद्युतिः ।
बिभ्रत् पिङ्ग-जटा-भारं
प्रादुरासीद् यथा रविः ॥

Shuka said: "When the kings' messenger had thus spoken, the devarshi Narada suddenly appeared. Bearing a mass of golden matted locks on his head, the supremely effulgent sage entered like the brilliant sun."


isnt indra too described having golden hair - that was the main reason for AIT..

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 20 Mar 2014 00:06

Atri wrote:isnt indra too described having golden hair - that was the main reason for AIT..

Yep, Indra is referred to as hari-shmashru - "tawny-beard"/"tawny-mustached". But his horse is also referred to with the same "colour" - hari - and the soma drink is also described as having the same "colour" - hari. Of course, considering the word "hari" has multiple meanings that we're all familiar with, it could be that the textuality and semioticity of this "colour" is different from a blonde-beard. Who knows.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 20 Mar 2014 04:07

Or the whole problem is reduced to a simple cue - that Indra == sun. Sun is "golden/yellow/tawny" depending on atmospheric conditions and time of day.

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 20 Mar 2014 04:36

brihaspati wrote:Or the whole problem is reduced to a simple cue - that Indra == sun. Sun is "golden/yellow/tawny" depending on atmospheric conditions and time of day.

:!:
Indra is associated very closely with the Sun, but seems to be different from the Sun god itself. I dunno.

'...thou didst lengthen days by night.’
‘When for the sake of those oppressed and Kutsa as he battled, thou stolest away the Sun’s cart wheel.’
- RigVeda 4:30:3-5

‘What time thou settest near the Sun, thy body, thy form, immortal one is seen expanding; thou a wild elephant with might invested, like a dread lion as thou wieldest weapons.’
- RigVeda: 4.16.14

‘He hath made pathways, with the Sun to aid him, throughout the darkness that extended pathless. Mortals who yearn to worship never dishonour, O Mighty God, thy law who are immortal.’
RigVeda: 6.21.3

‘Praised by Angirases, thou, foe destroyer, hast with the Dawn, Sun, Rays dispelled the darkness.'
-RigVeda: 1.62.5

johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby johneeG » 20 Mar 2014 08:48

sampat wrote:
venug wrote:sampat garu, I don't think that is correct, Dadichi's bones were used to make the Vajra-ayudha(?), Indra's weapon. Dadichi is one of the very few men whose sacrifices were unmatched. Not even by Karna. He gives his life so that his bones can be used to make the weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadhichi


I might be wrong. But long time ago, I heard about Dadichi Rishi's Katha in Devi Bhagwad Katha narated by sri deen dayaluji maharaj. http://www.swamisridindayaluji.in/audio.php
It is also possible that I am wrongly attributing this story to Swamiji, I might have picked up this online while researching about Dadichi.

From the Hindu mythology. Dadhichi, son of Atharvan, turned into a
great sage. Vritra became the head of the Asuras (demons). He
renounced his dharma – duty – to do good unto others and turned to
violence, battling with the devas. Led by Indra, they approached Lord
Vishnu for help. He told them that Vritra could not be destroyed by
ordinary means, revealing that only a weapon made from the bones of a
sage could slay him. When the deities revealed their doubts about the
likelihood of any ascetic donating his body, Vishnu directed them to
approach the sage Dadhichi. When approached by the gods, Dadhichi
gladly gave up his bones for the cause of the good. The Devas
collected the bones and Indra crafted the Vajrayudha from them and
eventually defeated the Vritrasura. Apart from Indra, there was one
more person who benefited from Sage Dadhichi's bones. Who?

Shakuni. His dice is made of Dadhichi's bones. It is believed that
Shakuni was able to get the number on the dice he wished for.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/qfi ... opics/3906


Shakuni's dice being made of Dhadhichi's bones is wrong, I think. Shakuni's dice are just loaded or he knew some other method of cheating. Thats all. But, this whole business of the dice being made of bones of someone or the other seems to be unsupported by Vyasa Bhaaratham.

Shakuni's dice have no connection to Dhadhichi. As for Shakuni's father, he was alive and kicking at the time of dice game. So, the story of Dhuryodhana starving Shakuni's father is also wrong. That story seems to have been made up by folklores and picked up by movies.


Adrija wrote:The story of bones is about Sage Dadhichi - he gave up his life so Indra could fashion the trishul (vajrayudha)from his spinal cord to kill Vritasura

It is also reflected in the Param Vir Chakra medallion- signifying self-sacrifice for a great cause

The medallion was designed by a foreigner IIRC....


Yep, Dhadhichi's bones were used for making Vajra. But, please note that Vajra is not Thrishul. Thrishul is different from Vajra. Thrishul was made by Vishwakarma from Solar power.

There is a story that Sun married Sangya, daughter of Vishwakarma. Vishwakarma is the divine architect. Sun had some children from Sangya. They were Yama, Yamuna, ...etc.(Yep, Yamuna and Yama are brother and sister. Both are blackish because Sun was very effulgent at the time). Sangya was unable to bear the effulgence of Sun, so she installed her duplicate and left for her father's home. Sangya's duplicate was Chaaya(Shadow). Sun did not realize this change. After sometime, Chaaya also became mother of some children(like Shani, ...etc). (Shani is also the son of Sun. But, they don't have a good relationship apparently). Chaaya started mistreating the children of Sangya. Then, Yama became suspicious and realized that it was not his mother. Then, Sun went to the house of Vishwakarma to get back his wife, Sangya. But, Sangya refused to come back until Sun's effulgence was reduced. Vishwakarma offered to reduce Sun's effulgence. This mediation was done by Shiva and Vishnu. So, Vishwakarma reduced the effulgence of Sun. The additional effulgence was used to carve a Thrishul and a Chakra. Vishwakarma gifted the Thrishul to Shiva and Chakra to Vishnu.

Sangya was still a bit angry with her husband. So, she took the form of a horse and went about roaming. Sun also transformed into a horse and followed her. They had two children in this form. They are called Ashwini twins. They became the medicine experts.

But, they were not accorded respect by Indhra. Indhra refused to accommodate them in heaven or give them share of Yagya. So, Ashwini twins took the help of Rushi Chyavana. He was an old Rushi who married a young princess named Sukanya. Ashwini twins helped Rushi Chyavana regain his youth. In return, Chyavana helped Aswini twins gain respect. Indhra also agreed. Sukanya is one of the acclaimed Pathivrathas. And Chyavanpraash may have its origin in the story that the medicine can prolong youthfulness.

Shiva replicated His Thrishul and gifted it to Dhurga Dhevi. Similarly, Vishnu replicated His Chakra and gifted it to Dhurga Dhevi.

About the Chakra:
After the self-immolation of Sathi Dhevi in Dhaksha yagna, Shiva sent Veera Bhadhra as the commander of Pramatha-Ganas to destroy the Yagna. Dhaksha sought refuge of Vishnu because Vishnu is the protector of all Yagnas. So, Vishnu fought Veera Bhadhra. Vishnu's Chakra was swallowed by Veera Bhadhra in the fight and technically Vishnu was defeated. After the nominal fight, Vishnu left and Dhaksha was duly punished.

Later, Vishnu worshiped Shiva with 1000 lotuses to regain His Chakra. However, to test Vishnu, Shiva stole one lotus from the 1000 lotuses. Unfazed Vishnu took out one of His eyes and offered it because His eyes are often compared to lotus. Then, Shiva was pleased and gifted Chakra to Vishnu.

To balance it off, a story where Vishnu wins and Shiva loses:
It seems there was a mock competition between Vishnu and Shiva for the credit of killing Thripuras. So, Vishnu and Shiva engaged in a battle of sorts. Vishnu freezed Shiva's bow and technically Shiva was defeated.

After that, Shiva gave up that bow to the Gods. The Gods gifted that bow to some king and it was inherited by Janaka. Later that bow was broken by Shri Raama.
(Don't know the authenticity of this particular story, but, here is a link).


I think these stories are allegorical.

Agnimitra wrote:Interesting hair colour in this verse from Shrimad Bhagavatam 10.70.32 -

श्री शुक उवाच -
राज-दूते ब्रुवत्येवं
देवर्षिः परमद्युतिः ।
बिभ्रत् पिङ्ग-जटा-भारं
प्रादुरासीद् यथा रविः ॥

Shuka said: "When the kings' messenger had thus spoken, the devarshi Narada suddenly appeared. Bearing a mass of golden matted locks on his head, the supremely effulgent sage entered like the brilliant sun."


I think this is wrong translation. Pingala seems to mean brownish red and not golden. Peetha or suvarna would mean golden.

I think what the text seems to be conveying is that these Rushis and Munis have unoiled hair and therefore their hair(which is black originally) becomes reddish brown due to lack of oil. One can see almost same description of other Munis and Rushis. But, not just Munis or Rushis but even Raakshasas are described similarly because they also have unoiled hair. So, their hair also becomes reddish brown.

Similarly, both Raakshasas and Munis also become darkened due to exposure to sun without umbrella. Both of them roam in jungles, so they live in similar environment, so their appearances are also similar. But, their natures are different. Another difference is diet and clothing.

brihaspati wrote:Or the whole problem is reduced to a simple cue - that Indra == sun. Sun is "golden/yellow/tawny" depending on atmospheric conditions and time of day.


Yes, Bji, this is the explanation. This is supported by Rudhram also.

Asau yastamro aruna uta babhruh sumangalah
Ye chemarudra abhito dixu Shritah sahasrashoavaishhaheda imahe



Tamra means coppery red.
Aruna means full red.
babruh means reddish yellow.

This is a direct mention of Sun.

Another similar verse in Rudhra where Shiva is said to have golden hands and green hair.
Namo hiranyabahave senanye dishan cha pataye namo
namo vrikshebhyo harikeshebhyah pashunam pataye namo

hiranyabaahave means golden hands.
harikeshaya means hari(green) kesha(hair) i.e. green hair.

Again hari is not yellow but green. Both Indhra's and Surya's horses are described as Hari i.e. green.

Green hair is a reference to trees and golden hands is a reference to Sun's rays.

Indhra and Surya are like alter-egos of the same entity. Similarly, Maya Dhanava and Vishwakarma seem to be alter-egos of the same entity.

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2797
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby prahaar » 20 Mar 2014 10:20

The current version of Mahabharat on Starplus, portrays Shakuni creating dice from his father's bones, well before creation of Indraprastha. One of the names appearing in the content creation is Debdutta Patnaik. Is it all fiction or is part of some allied stories not directly sourced from Vyas Mahabharat? Also can someone list some sources of MB other than Vyas MB.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 20 Mar 2014 10:36

Agnimitra wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Or the whole problem is reduced to a simple cue - that Indra == sun. Sun is "golden/yellow/tawny" depending on atmospheric conditions and time of day.

:!:
Indra is associated very closely with the Sun, but seems to be different from the Sun god itself. I dunno.

'...thou didst lengthen days by night.’
‘When for the sake of those oppressed and Kutsa as he battled, thou stolest away the Sun’s cart wheel.’
- RigVeda 4:30:3-5

‘What time thou settest near the Sun, thy body, thy form, immortal one is seen expanding; thou a wild elephant with might invested, like a dread lion as thou wieldest weapons.’
- RigVeda: 4.16.14

‘He hath made pathways, with the Sun to aid him, throughout the darkness that extended pathless. Mortals who yearn to worship never dishonour, O Mighty God, thy law who are immortal.’
RigVeda: 6.21.3

‘Praised by Angirases, thou, foe destroyer, hast with the Dawn, Sun, Rays dispelled the darkness.'
-RigVeda: 1.62.5



More accurately it would be rising constellations near the pre-dawn sunrise point at the time of the first composition of the verse. Most of the verses in RgVeda to me appears symbolic of encoded astronomical observations for the time and place of first composition. The constellation angle will fit most stories connected to Indra.

Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 20 Mar 2014 10:46

Patnaik is a huge let down. His latest tweet was extremely pathetic. Good that cover is blowing up on these sepoys. He suggested those who like mahabharata, shiva and krishna over ramayana, vishnu and raama respectively -are liberal hindus. :D

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7491
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Prasad » 20 Mar 2014 11:15

I thought that was a sarcastic tweet. Further tweets reinforce that imo.

svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby svenkat » 20 Mar 2014 11:29

@ScorpiusMaximus @devduttmyth Veiled dig at "Jai Shree Ram" types?

Devdutt Pattanaik ‏@devduttmyth
@sughosh_v @ScorpiusMaximus More like dig at 'liberal' types, I thought. But clearly I am bad at communication considering some replies

Methinks: Tough to express irony and sarcasm on twitter. Lol

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 20 Mar 2014 15:13

brihaspati wrote:More accurately it would be rising constellations near the pre-dawn sunrise point at the time of the first composition of the verse. Most of the verses in RgVeda to me appears symbolic of encoded astronomical observations for the time and place of first composition. The constellation angle will fit most stories connected to Indra.

B ji,

I am convinced too. Recently I wrote the following... (Of course this is from the Mahabharata text)

http://nileshoak.wordpress.com/2014/03/ ... a-dhaumya/
---
Since then I received few emails requesting me to explore all references of Ashwini in the context of Nakshtra Ashwini.

I did some preliminary exploration, specifically references to 'Heliacal' rising of Ashwini'. Many past researchers seem to have jumped on 'Heliacal rising of Ashwini at the time of winter solstice' and thus 7000 BCE!

I have not seen direct or indirect references to winter solstice for this helical rising of Ashwini, but then Rigveda is not an easy text to read, (of course even with the help of multiple translations...I am reading).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2014 21:36

prahaar wrote:The current version of Mahabharat on Starplus, portrays Shakuni creating dice from his father's bones, well before creation of Indraprastha. One of the names appearing in the content creation is Debdutta Patnaik. Is it all fiction or is part of some allied stories not directly sourced from Vyas Mahabharat? Also can someone list some sources of MB other than Vyas MB.



Was listening to a guruji in Telugu about the differences in the Epics. He says there is the version told by the original author and then the version told by the original author in a different context or different work, there is the version by a well meaning author to elaborate on a point or bring out his understanding and then there is bokwas. He said those versions that do not distort the core are acceptable. The ones that distort and denigrate the core are unacceptable.

My take on the Shakuni's dice is like this. The despicable act that Shakuni does leading to the disrobing of Draupadi has distrubed many writers who sought supernatural source for Shakuni's successive rolls of dice that defy rules of chance or probability.
Hence the story of dice made from his father's bones.

Now Shakuni's father was invited by Yudhistir to the Rajasuya yagna and honored with gifts. The dice game invite came within a fortnight. So how did Shakuni get the time to make dice out of his father's bones in these 15 days?

This was brought out by Sri M.C.Sastri the doyen of pravachanams in Telugu. He also explained the odd rules of the pachikas or the dice game. I had RamaY explain that earlier. Its not parchesi or anything like that. The winner gets to throw the dice all the time.

What flummoxes the observers is that Shakuni manages to throw the continuous winning combinations.

MCS says this is some 'apara vidya" or non traditional skill. In fact a rishi teaches Yudhistir that skill after narrating the Nala Damayanti story to the Pandavas in the forests. Shakuni knows that and after the Virata parvam never again suggests or calls him for repeat match as that option is closed.


Sorry for the lengthy post.

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 21 Mar 2014 00:29

B ji, JohneeG ji and Nilesh ji - makes sense.

sampat
BRFite
Posts: 478
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 23:54

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sampat » 21 Mar 2014 21:46

devdutt patnaik is wendy's child. unfortunately, he is also consulting on devo ke dev Mahadev.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 23 Mar 2014 21:44

jamwal wrote:How true is this ?
http://ur-destination.blogspot.in/2010/ ... akuni.html
Truth behind "Shakuni"


This is not true and a Harikatha effect (where the story teller adds masala to make the story interesting). We discussed this before in this thread.

1. Dharmaraja sent gifts to Subala, Sakuni's father, after Rajasuya. This was hardly ~months before Dyuta-Krida.

2. Sakuni's father, Subala, attended Uttara-Abhimanyu marriage in Virata-Nagara which happened 13 years after Dyuta-Krida.

The Arya-Chankya book (I translated key parts of it in this forum) tells us that giving 1 morsel of food relates to Chandragupta Maurya.

Please read Mahabharata Adi/Sabha/Virata Parvas for reference.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9820
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Mar 2014 22:13

I believe the story of Sakuni is a fiction of NTR movie

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9820
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Mar 2014 22:14

I got Game of Thrones all the three seasons.

chandrasekhar.m
BRFite
Posts: 317
Joined: 16 Dec 2009 20:27
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby chandrasekhar.m » 23 Mar 2014 22:18

sampat wrote:devdutt patnaik is wendy's child. unfortunately, he is also consulting on devo ke dev Mahadev.

True, if Devdutt Patnaik is being consulted that show's story will get twisted and won't be family friendly.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 23 Mar 2014 23:31

ramana wrote:Bji, What is the constant referenece to Nagas in Sanathan Dharma? What is the code here? Indubitably they refer to snakes.

it cant be modern nagas who are really named after Burmese word "Nakka" as the used to have nose piercings.


ramanaji, sorry I missed this earlier.

For me there are intriguing alternatives :
(1) the NON-atipraakrita version: these were regional tribes who did worship or iconize serpents, and were experts in handling snake poison. In general well-versed in use of natural poisons which they used effectively in arrows etc. They proved a formidable enemy for the expansive groups. My Santhal friends would be expert snake-handlers, and would almost handle them as pets as well as "food".

(2) the naga actually refers to an earlier astronomical spiritualism - which looked at the milky way as a divine "serpent". This interpretation later changed to the Milky-way as dual of "Ganga" on earth. This is why Ganga took on an additional dual layered spiritual meaning. It could also have represented a transition from a more primitive aatavik culture to a river-agriculture-based civilization.

(3) The nagas are shown as Indra-worshipers - which would imply they were associated with a dual sun-rain cult, and they might have been the precursor civilization that later developed into urbanization. This was remembered with respect for the later civilizations. The increase of snake populations, the need to laud the sun, the MB hint of the aridification of Khandava-prastha by Indra and concentration of rain only in the "maya-forest" [and the consequent driving out of humans of the ancestral kingdom of the Kurus] probably indicates the peculiar reversing trends after the immediate large retreat of the ice-age. I owuld say this story probably features the intermediary aridity retreat in the younger Dryas - 9k-8k BCE, and then rehydration.

Bharatya cultures seem to have preserved the sense of continuity and borrowing from "ancestral" civilizations, even if there are fundamental departures in the newer respecting civilization from that of the older.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 23 Mar 2014 23:47

the serpentines as divines - half-serpent-halfhumanoid are also described in the Sumerian foundation myths. Annunaki - the god-people who rose from below the sea. This could simply meant ship-user cultures who would appear to arise from the sea by coming across the horizon and extension of the proto-Sindhu-Saraswati culture that was spreading along the north-eastern Indian ocean rim in the late ice-age -post ice age frame. Whether they wore serpentine dresses or dresses that were so shiny that they appeared like scales or scale armour plating, is open for speculation.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 23 Mar 2014 23:57

Bji,

Some dots in the path.
1/ Nagas being progeny of Kadruva-Kasyapa. Not all Nagas supported Kadruva in her quarrel with Vinata
2/ AstIka and his truce efforts between two groups.
3/ Naraka being Draco (great serpent in northern hemisphere). Krishna taking Aditi Kundalas is cutting the last two star groups from Draco and adding them to Krittikas (Nilesh ji - will send these references for possible dating).
4/ history centric view as Nagas being the hunter-gatherer civilization in friction with Agri-civilization of MB times.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 24 Mar 2014 00:21

My general view is that known, remembered, historical stories were used - modified substantially and deliberately - to encode what they thought were significant astronomical observations and events. All of rigveda, and most subsequent mythology are based on this encoding. Now proving this and unraveling this is a stupendous task - and not for me.

My other discomfort is that in my own private explorations - most of the verses in rig and MB or other significant texts are encodings of astronomical events, but the story matches more with characters assigned to the constellations that have been preserved more in the Greek versions than in our later jyotish.

Something happened "in-between" to have disrupted that continuity of astronomical knowledge and culture. A clue that it coincides more with Greek constellation characters or even ME ones - and not the Egyptian ones may point to its formation before the OIT expansion, and later a counter-culture developing that repressed or suppressed the earlier astronomy-obsessed sipritualism. Maybe it was the same reaction that I think went on in the formation of the proto-Buddhist trends that developed as a reaction to the failure of the urban civilizations of SS. The culture and its spritual attitudes would be blamed for all that went wrong - including the droughts, lawlessness etc. This could have led to deliberate destruction of texts, symbols, images, icons of the older culture and the cultuer of oral traditions, secretiveness and exclusiveness of knowledge preservation in paranoid classes of "priesthood/monk-orders" and taking it away from public domain - and which could explain the singular archeological lack of material continuity in the period before the later revival of "Hinduism" after the rise and fall of "Buddhist" trends.

I would place the dark period at approx 1500 BCE to 500 CE. The fall of the late Sindhu phase of the SS, to retreat of Buddhism as a pan-Bharat force.

patel
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby patel » 24 Mar 2014 18:42

ramana wrote:
MCS says this is some 'apara vidya" or non traditional skill. In fact a rishi teaches Yudhistir that skill after narrating the Nala Damayanti story to the Pandavas in the forests. Shakuni knows that and after the Virata parvam never again suggests or calls him for repeat match as that option is closed.

Sorry for the lengthy post.


I recently met a Guruji from Nath-Dwara aka SriNathji, he must be about 80 yo or more. He knows this 'vidya' apparently, he asks you to write 2 questions on a piece of paper (he obviously cannot see what's written), then rolls the dice and freakin answers the questions written by you. He claims to know the 'vidya' and according to him only one other person who lives in Banaras knows this 'vidya'.

Not sure how relevant is it to you but just thought I'd share this with you folks. I can get you the Nath-Dwara Guruj's number if you want :).

Ashok Sarraff
BRFite
Posts: 620
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 00:44

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 26 Mar 2014 17:35

Yesterday on Star Plus Mahabharat, they showed that it was NOT Draupadi but her dasi who asked jokingly, "Kya andhe ka beta bhi andha hi hota hai?" (Is it true that a blind man's son is also blind?) when Duryodhan falls into water. The dasi was shown standing just behind Draupadi and hence Duryodhan mistakenly thinks that it was Draupadi who made that comment. I never heard of this version of this event!

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 28 Mar 2014 06:27

I was thinking about PanchaKanya/PanchaMahaPativratas and it made me bow in gratitude for our ancestor's wisdom!

They are
1. Ahalya
2. Tara
3. Mandodari
4. Sita
5. Draupadi

Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Anand K » 28 Mar 2014 07:13

Nala received the the Aksha-Hridaya skill from Rituparna Raja, while the former was living incognito [courtesy a gift from Karkotaka], as Vahuka. IIRC Vahuka soon became the charioteer of Rituparna - Nala already possessed the Ashva-Hridaya, or command of the steeds. One day he had to take the King through the forest path so as to reach Vidarbha in a day and the King was impressed with the driving skills; he in turn demonstrated his Aksha-Hridaya (something like a Mentat from Dune-universe, not just card-counting/dice skills) by correctly estimating the number of leaves and berries on a tree with just one glance.

Later when Nala revealed his true identity he gifted Rituparna this skill for his kindness and Rituparna shared his skill in return. The Aksha Hridaya skill was utilized to beat his brother in high stakes dice and win back his kingdom. Also, I don't remember if Kali-Dwapara enchantment of the dice was still active in the rematch and the Aksha Hridaya skill could overcome even these malevolent powers - or if they had done their deed the last time and departed leaving an even playing ground. Maybe the brother, Pushkara, was skilled even without the outside influence and the skill was necessary to beat him.

On that note, Yudhishtira also learned Aksha-Hridaya dring his exile IIRC which he used to get close to Virata in the 13th year of Ajnatavaas - he didn't know that when he first played Shakuni. Also, some versions just say trick dice or loaded dice, the enchanted dice of bones (revenge of the dead living in the bones, a la Dhadichi or even Arundhati :mrgreen: ) story is not "canon", right?
So whatever be the version (of the nature of the dice), Yudhishtira learned Aksha Hridaya just for the heck of it or was he expecting a rematch? Also, AFAIK there is no explanation to why a rematch was not considered after the exile to win back all they lost. Maybe the skill is useless against enchanted or loaded dice?
Last edited by Anand K on 28 Mar 2014 11:48, edited 1 time in total.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 28 Mar 2014 07:37

^

Don't remember who (a Rishi) gave Aksha-Hridaya to Yudhistira during Vanvas, so he doesn't fall for Sakuni's trick if they call him for another match after Ajnatavasa (remember Yudhistir had a oath that he wouldn't reject a call for a duel in war or in dice).

Sakuni gang didn't talk about another dice game knowing that Yudhistir got Aksha Hridaya. It is important to note that there were quite a few Duryodhana spies in Yudhistira's entourage during vanavas.

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2797
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby prahaar » 28 Mar 2014 12:19

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Yesterday on Star Plus Mahabharat, they showed that it was NOT Draupadi but her dasi who asked jokingly, "Kya andhe ka beta bhi andha hi hota hai?" (Is it true that a blind man's son is also blind?) when Duryodhan falls into water. The dasi was shown standing just behind Draupadi and hence Duryodhan mistakenly thinks that it was Draupadi who made that comment. I never heard of this version of this event!


There are many discrepancies in the Star Plus Mahabharat narration, the day of the dice, Draupadi was having her monthly cycle and consequently she was not present when the dice game started. In Star Plus version, they are showing a few additional things (Arjun's prayaschit for entering Draupadi's chamber when she was with Yudhishthir) but skipping/distorting a few others.

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby krishnan » 28 Mar 2014 12:35


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2014 00:52

An examination of Duryodhana's character as an epitome of the collapse of ancient Khshatriya order

http://videshisutra.com/2013/01/17/play ... -advocate/

and part II:

http://videshisutra.com/2013/09/27/dury ... /#more-881

I am not so sure about this re-telling as Duryodhana did resort to evil first and even ha his uncle play he dice game and not himself.

Nala's opponent himself played the game.

svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby svenkat » 06 Apr 2014 18:37

http://devdutt.com/blog/when-hijras-waited-for-ram.html

I once asked a hijra to narrate what she considered a sacred story from her community. This is what she told me:

When Ram returned from forest exile after fourteen years, he saw hijras outside the gates of Ayodhya. “Why are you outside, not inside?” he asked. And they replied, “Remember, the people of Ayodhya wanted to follow you into the forest. You told the men to go back. You told the women to go back. We are neither men nor women. You forgot to tell us what to do. So we did not go back. We waited for you to return and tell us what to do.” Ram felt miserable at this oversight. Unknowingly, he had caused the exile of these hijras. He embraced them, showered them with affection, promised all earthly and heavenly joys and took them along with him into his Ayodhya.

This story, so full of despair at abandonment and hope for inclusion, can also be found in cultural anthropologist Serena Nanda’s book on hijras, but it has no textual reference. We can argue it is a made-up fantasy of a marginalized community seeking validation.
But that is the purpose of sacred stories. They are subjective truths that validate a community, their customs and beliefs.


I was touched reading the story.Seemed to me so typically hindu.This is about compassion of Sri Rama to the marginalised.Since hijras are so far away from my experience,I cannot understand their concerns at all.Just thought of posting it.


Return to “History & Current Affairs Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests