Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 08 Apr 2014 23:22

X-post...
rohitvats wrote:https://in.news.yahoo.com/why-is-there-a-rising-machismo-of-the-mahadev-070142500.html

Very nice article by Devdutt Patnaik.

Excerpt:

And finally, we have the DC-comic-Marvel-world New Age art that influences many young creative minds of India. Young people have been swept away by Iron Man and Superman or Batman, or maybe Wolverine, and find the imagery of Chandamama and Amar Chitra Katha boring, even though Nandini Chandra's book The Classic Popular: Amar Chitra Katha, 1967-2007 points out that one of the ACK Rams was modelled after the Johnny Weissmuller of humungous chest! Wisdom or devotion are seen as passive and take a back seat in this new wave of art. This 'just do it' generation wants action with style and a macho sexiness. So across the Internet one finds many young artists reimagining Hindu gods and goddesses for the virtual world. Here everyone has the body structure of a Viking. There is no place for body fat. Long hair is cool. Ash is replaced by tattoos. Women are always fierce warriors to prove they are not at all traditional. And they are all constantly striking sexy poses. Shiva here is like a heavy metal rock star in a haze of cannabis smoke with heaps of skulls with a crematorium backdrop. Here there is no room for the simpleton husband who quarrels with his wife and sulks in the forest called Daru-vana. Here there is no room for the awkward father, who knows everything about the universe, but is at odds when asked to help around the house. The influences are Greek and biblical, hence the desire to be hero and saviour rolled into one. He is destroyer of the bad guys, not destroyer of ignorance and restlessness.

At its heart is a new form of misogyny that rejects everything remotely feminine, where even feminism becomes all about embracing the masculine as in the film Gulaab Gang. It celebrates the violence of the alpha predator who sits on top of the pecking order and dominates the pack. Not surprisingly, women are increasingly feeling increasingly unsafe in Indian cities. This new macho cult has no desire to be Ardha-Nareshwar, the half-woman God. It sees only cross-dressing television jesters embracing the female side. It is terrified of becoming Shikhandi, a constant pejorative term used in political arena nowadays. Implicitly we seem to agree with the British colonizer's gaze: effeminacy is a bad thing.



If this guy had read Devi Bhagavatham or even listened to the pravachanams he would not make such comments. Especially Lalitha Sahasranamam or Soundraya Lahiri.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 08 Jun 2014 20:32

RajeshA wrote:
SaiK wrote:I think I have heard it as (8.6-8.9b years old - big bang theory / sci channel). Which is 24 hours for Brahma, i.e., 2 x 4.3b years ~ 8.6b years. Each brahma day is 4.3b years. Now, I may be wrong in this. And the previous cycle - of brahma, [per radiation signature is >13b] - 1 1/2 days for brahma. Not sure the other half daynight he was spending? /universal procreation perhaps - met Saraswati. :wink:


RamaY wrote:Kalpa could mean the useful life of Sun. Please note that there exists the milkyway and Vishnu in Yoga nidra.

If we take Kalpa to be the useful life of Sun which is (~4.3 billion years - Not the entire life of sun but where it can support a planet like Earth), then it makes sense how Hanuma is mentioned as next Brahma (perhaps a star where a life sustaining earth would emerge in this galaxy).

If we take ksheera-sagara as Milkyway, then extend it as mentioned in Devi Bhagavatam, where there existed numerous worlds each with a different Trimurthis etc.,
RamaY wrote:Perhaps ocean of stars. And there was the concept of Krishna Bilam in the middle of that Ksheera Sagara, the blackhole. These are astronomical symbols in our scripts. They are mixed at many levels.

Remember the public (Guru) key and Private (Consciousness) key i mentioned earlier? we need to do some research on all these aspects. I see lot of parallel researches going on different planes.
RamaY wrote:Long time ago the Asuras found a new way to harass the worlds. The Asuras wanted none other than their supporters should enjoy life. Banda would go to swarga loka, nishukrru would go to earth and nishanga would go to rasa tala. There they would destroy the roots of manliness and woman's roots of rasa (imagine that). That made all the worlds go completely unpurposeful.

To fight this the devatas wanted to an Yajna. But they couldn't do it in this Brahmanda. So they made a hole to this Brahmanda and climbed on to outside and did a Yajna to mother Lalita.

Then they were taken to mothers abode. The royal assembly of mother was filled with many brahmas, vishnus and rudras.

RamaY ji,

in the Off-Topic thread these gems of knowledge would be wasted. Can we have a proper thread by you on Vedic Cosmology & Other Sciences!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 08 Jun 2014 20:35

RamaY wrote:
RamaY wrote:.. moral is that the universal consciousness knows how to keep track of your karma and provide you the results. No second guess there. It applies to the believers too.


SaiK wrote:I was inquisitive to know if you or others have a pattern. A pattern based approach was actually chased after by stephen wolfram [mathematica guy].. new kind of science[book was difficult to read]. I was wondering if one could reverse engineer all that we have like from tantric, yantic and karmic concepts and deeds to a more well established patterns.


This can be and has been in practice. This overall equation is split into multiple sub-functions based on what we are trying to optimize (4 purusharthas x 8 lakshmis x so on... probably 33 crore possibilities).

My intuition is that this equation has two keys (like public and private keys in encryption). The first key is held by Mantra/Sat guru. He will give the first key. The second key, IMHO, is kept in the universal consciousness. For an eligible seeker this key will appear in their intellect under deep meditation/penance.

The second key was left to the universal consciousness because most of the gurus (unless they are Brahma Jnanis) cannot determine the eligibility of the seeker, with observations in one life, and the possible consequences.

I think Sri Chakram is one such wave function.

Like the author of "Dancing Wu-Li Masters" says, this level of knowledge requires lot of mind/buddhi experimentation and physical laboratories can prove only so-much.

A serious seeker can take a small mantra and work towards its siddhi and can enter those halls of Brahma-Knowledge (Satya-Loka).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 09 Jun 2014 02:37

KLP Dubey wrote:A correction: I did not assert that the Rgveda sounds are "divine". The sounds are eternal, and are not the product of any agency whether human or divine.

Per Vedas Eternal=Divine because Divine = Satyam, Anantam, Jnanam (ultimate reality, eternal & knowledge).

When we say something is divine, we are indirectly referring to that underlying satyam, anantam, jnanam.

shiv wrote:The reason why opposing arguments about the content and alleged stories of the Rig Veda posed by the likes of Witzel and Talageri must be looked at with suspicion is as follows. These scholars base their arguments on the one main "translation" of the Rig Veda by Griffiths. Anyone who reads Griffiths and is of a sane mind will realize that the translation of the Rig Veda does not look like a profound set of poems that serve as the basis of Indian philosophy and civilization, but like poems by a bunch of idiots who were stringing words together to create a mockery of the word poetry. What you read in "translations" of the Rig Veda is insufferable bullshit on the lines of what I said earlier - "Indra rescued 60,000 cattle and released the waters" or "may this stake protect your ancestors in thier grave" or "216 pieces of gold and 10,000 cattle". Meaningless claptrap. No Indian and certainly no one else who learns of the antiquity of the Rig Veda will deliberately want to laugh at this patently ludicrous content. They will imagine that in those ancient days humans were still getting out of Neanderthalism - so these idiot-poems had great meaning back then, although they sound like poems written by cretins to us "modern, advanced thinking humans"
...


Vedic words/symbols have different meanings in different contexts. For example Tamra means copper for a metallurgy student, but refers to a chemical compound for a siddha-vaidya and something else for a advaitin. Only a traditional Vedic guru can help the seeker in the right path, otherwise it all sounds jibbarish.

For example there is a mantra in Durga-suktam. It comes in many places. In a temple puja it means praise to Durga, in a marriage ritual it represents the fire that is witness to that sacred union and in astra sastra it formulates Agneyastra in a specific combination. A good analogy is Water, H2O. A chemist looks at water as H20 and its interactions with other chemical compounds, where as a farmer looks it from a different angle who is different from how a hydrologist uses it.

UlanBatori wrote:It has nothing to do with Sanskrit (Samskrtam), which is simply a "refined language" that came much later to communicate precisely. Like FORTRAN90 is to a set of hexadecimal flashing lights or sounds. In the old days one had to be very economical with the coding because the entire machine memory of a big cabinet-filling computer was 128 bytes. But the Ancients also passed on the Upanishads as the Instruction Manual and the Abridged for Kindergartners version and that is what people use to understand the gist of the "sounds".


Please watch this video from 25:30: viewtopic.php?p=1665288#p1665288
He gives a different etymology to Samskrutam.

UlanBatori wrote:Can someone post here the exact content (beginning 10 lines) of the Rg Veda? No explanations, just the content.
If it is sound, then it should be described as content primarily in XXX frequency bands. Or if it is repeated many times, post the Fourier coefficients with the conversions to units of pressure, and the fundamental frequency.


अग्निमीळे पुरोहितं यज्ञस्य देवं रत्वीजम |
होतारं रत्नधातमम ||

Now this mantra is mentioned in Pasupata tantra as a cure for addictions (of all sorts) when combined with Sri Rudramantra. I applied this on a person (substance abuse) with 100% results (Clean for 2+ years). Is this coincidence? May be. But I can feel/perceive what happened. I explained this in one of the posts in L&M dhaga a while ago.

IMHO the Veda mantras are nothing but compilation of the universal consciousness. They are like that Schrodinger wave equation that explains that Param (Satyam, Anantam, Jnanam). One can decipher them very easily based on purified senses (Anta:karana Shuddhi thru Ashtanga-Yoga), a Sat-Guru who can point you where to look at give you the public key. The private key has to be earned by the seeker in their deep meditation as explained here.

Imagine the whole universal consciousness is the software in the computer. You see only some aspects of the computer (screen, key board etc., and what appears on the screen). Now the programming language for this computer is developed in a sabda/sound language (because this is the energy we humans can eminate in a controlled fashion, beside thought waves, which is the reason why meditation can be mental as well). Mantra repetition/japa is the process of adding more and more energy to your command line so the influence field (in multiple dimensions including time) is enhanced.

It will be gibberish for an untrained mind. Look at Ca4Si2O6CO3OHF2 for example. We all can read it (like our western scholors who had access to sanskrit dictionary) but it doesnt make any sense either to the reader or a listener. Lets change it to (Ca4Si2O6(CO3)(OH, F))2 then it starts making sense to a trained chemical student. Those denominators and multipliers in this equation are like udatta/anudatta swaras in reading the equation. The key in the English language is spelling. Similarly the beauty of Sanskrit is pada-vibagha (separating the words). You can see how different meanings can be deduced by watching the Sanskruta Avadhana video posted above.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby KLP Dubey » 11 Jun 2014 01:11

RamaY wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote:A correction: I did not assert that the Rgveda sounds are "divine". The sounds are eternal, and are not the product of any agency whether human or divine.

Per Vedas Eternal=Divine because Divine = Satyam, Anantam, Jnanam (ultimate reality, eternal & knowledge).

When we say something is divine, we are indirectly referring to that underlying satyam, anantam, jnanam.



That practice/nomenclature is not correct as far as proper understanding of Veda is concerned. In Vaidikadharma there is a separation of apaurusheya Veda from any "divine" entities such as Brahman (of the Vedantis) or Ishvara (of the Nyaya-Vaisheshikas).

As far as Vaidikadharma is concerned, the Vedic Word is eternal, impersonal, and universal, and is in continuous operation with its own creative power. There is no requirement nor importance of any separate "divine" entities whether material or creative.

It is the Vedantis and Nyaya-Vaisheshikas who attempt to justify the existence of other causative agents. According to Advaita Vedanta there is a "Brahman" which is inscrutable but also the material cause and creative cause of the Universe. According to Nyaya the creative cause is one "Ishvara" (Gawd) whereas the material cause (posited by Vaisheshika) is the "aNu" (i.e., atomic matter). All these views are proven to be untenable and are based upon Upanishadic speculations or theological urges.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 11 Jun 2014 02:37

RamaY wrote:IMHO the Veda mantras are nothing but compilation of the universal consciousness. They are like that Schrodinger wave equation that explains that Param (Satyam, Anantam, Jnanam). One can decipher them very easily based on purified senses (Anta:karana Shuddhi thru Ashtanga-Yoga), a Sat-Guru who can point you where to look at give you the public key. The private key has to be earned by the seeker in their deep meditation as explained here.

RamaY ji, the above link is to the gif of the post link instead of the post. :) Could you provide the link again? TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 11 Jun 2014 22:38

^ I copied those posts above the one you are referring.

here is the correct link anyway : viewtopic.php?p=1669348#p1669348

by the way, if possible read Mahavedha novel by Chivukula purushottam... this novel is about Vemana's alchemy... in that he explains the symbolic names of some of the sidhha-chemistry.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby vishvak » 11 Jun 2014 23:49

Shouldn't the discussion on Vedha be actually in this thread though it is not a text. It would be better to search as well in this context.
Last edited by vishvak on 12 Jun 2014 01:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 12 Jun 2014 00:06

RamaY wrote:
अग्निमीळे पुरोहितं यज्ञस्य देवं ऋत्विजं |
होतारं रत्नधातमम ||


there.. fixed..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 12 Jun 2014 02:26

Thanks RamaY ji

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby member_20317 » 12 Jun 2014 09:22

The Star plus Mahabharat has Dhritrashtra almost salivating and working overtime, almost as vehement as Duryodhan and Dushashan, in justifying Draupadi cheerharan.

I have not read MBH but was that actually the case? Was Dhritrashtra actually as force full in his justifications in the dice game episode?

I always believed that Dhritrashtra was more of a confused man all through his life. A general misapplier of dharm.

A man of contradictions than of any kind of surety. He is in essence the generic world. Not to be hated but not to be loved either, instead to be allowed to witness what we do.

1) First covets the throne (I think admitted in later part).
2) Mis-applies the rules of conduct. And keeps backtracking whenever he is reminded of the danger from Pandavs.
3) Witnesses (rather not) the establishment of Dharm in Kurukshetra - seeing all his sons dye but not seeing the Shri Vishnu ever.
4) Admits to his position of a father-figure for Pandavs also but also is willing to abandon them in favor of his attachment for Duryodhan, ultimately sending Duryodhan to his doom by his incompetence in discharging the duties of a father.
5) Strong man (enough at least to crush a metal statue of Bheem - advised by Shri Krishan, in order to protect Bheem) yet a weak spirit.
6) Again takes up finally the position of a father figure towards the end, probably this time better prepared to do his job.


TIA for any responses.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby KrishG » 14 Jun 2014 20:57

Watching Mahabharat on Star Plus. Have to say its very much tilted towards Arjuna. That's the general perception but not really correct. One of the interesting fact is that out of the 11 Akshohini of Kauravas, Bheema single handedly kills 7 Akshohini sena. Arjuna kills 3.5 Akshohini, half of Bheemasena. This in itself adds up to 10.5 Akshohini and the rest of all on Pandavas side together managed 0.5 Akshohini. Bheema even defeats Karna in battle. There is a verse in which Duryodhana himself lists the strongest 5 people in Bharatakanda at that time. He ranks Bheemsena has the most powerful, followed by Balarama, then Keechaka and Shalya and one another person. That's the reason Duryodhana does what he does to make Shalya join his side.

Mahabharatha is so huge that no serial or book can even give 50% of the facts mentioned there.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 16 Jun 2014 21:47

UlanBatori wrote:Don't want to offend anyone, but Hinduism is dead unless one can give a simple answer to "What is in the Vedas"?


Answering just for my mental-masturbation :mrgreen:

Q: What is in the Vedas?
A: YOU (in your true form).

Time for a personal anecdote.

Last year my elder one went to a yoga camp in Hrishikesh. There he met a Sadhu who told my boy that he should have Rudrabhishekam done for his well-being. Upon hearing this I told my boy that a daily Rudrabhishekam is being done on his name for past couple of years and he is covered.

So my boy asked me what is Sri Rudram?

So I explained him thus -

Sri Rudram has two parts. The first part is called Namakam (A stuti of Rudra), the second part Chamakam.

In Namakam we praise Rudra (the Adhisthana Deva of this Veda-stuti). To understand what this Rudra is, we need to understand the Dhyana sloka of that mantra which starts as 'āpātāḷa-nabhaḥsthalānta-bhuvana-brahmāṇḍa-māvisphurat-'.

What type of stuti is this? If you understand Namakam, we praise Rudra as being this inner (kaarana/Causal) consciousness of everything around us, the people, stones, waters, rivers, trees, bugs, snakes, thieves, rich, poor and what not.. In a single sentence the Namakam is nothing but the description of entire cosmos (vyakta as well as avyakta/kaarana); which includes us. The 10th and 11th Anuvakas of Namakam delve into the Kaarana/Causal aspects of the universal being (visible universe).

In Chamakam we ask/seek various things/pleasures of importance to us from this Rudra.

My son then asked me the real question. Isn't it selfish to ask for things from the God (God consciousness)?

The answer in this context is a clear NO. Lets check what we are asking in Chamakam.

Put in context the Chamakam goes like this... The seeker starts with self, the ego (so s/he can perceive what is his :) ), then security (without safety there is no point of pleasures...), health, sleep, good mood (without good mood one cannot enjoy) and so on... then the seeker expands his purview(influence field).. he adds house, lawn, land etc.... moves on to next level... wife, father, mother, family, children etc.,... then next level... cars/asva/horse-power ; not just one color but different colors, shapes, features etc., then what is the point of all these unless we can show them off to others .. so we need village.. different varnas to move around and so on.. then we want rivers, mountains, forests, deserts ... it will be boring to have same geography everywhere.. then more planets and stars to fill the night sky... and so on... by the time Chamakam ends, the seeker asks for the whole universe, including the underlying kaarana (Avyakta).. it will be too boring to have same life everytime.. so we want different lives, in different situations...

In essence, the seeker is asking exactly what he already has... limited ego, security (he is reading SriRudram), society, planets, with all its (perception of) good/bad/ugly....

Once this realization dawns on the seeker, he gets the real objective of Sri Rudram... the "understanding" of all that is... I am all that is, because I want all that is, because all that it is for me. That leads to inner bliss >> Antah karana suddhi >> self-realization.


This understanding works at multiple levels...

One is at simple mental plain: Makes the seeker understand the system/universe. Makes him do his duty (whatever that is) with an appreciation of the whole. Lack of this simple knowledge is what made Varna-Vyavastha into a Caste system. A S/W engineer thinking he can survive as a profitable organization without all those ppt carrying managers, status reporting project managers, testers, janitors, network engineers, HR managers (how dare they decide his salary) etc.,

Western Science tries to separate the scientist from the experiment. The Vedic approach is to understand the system as a whole, the scientist is also part of the experiment. Because the scientist decides what he wants to see in the experiment, which need not be the real interaction happening in the experiment. When the scientist aligns his drishti, experiment, and observed, we will have a Aryabhata, Susila, Bose, CV Raman, Bhaba, Einstien, Newton etc.,

Another is at Kaarana plain: This is where the sound/vibrations of Mantras work. They subtly influence the Kaarana plain cleaning one's Sanchita Karma.

Another is at tantric/scientific plain: When a seeker finds a right guru and gets access to the public key, the seeker can use the code words in the mantras to pursue some technological projects (bio-chemical, chemical, material fields)

***

Veda avoids and fails any seeker that approaches it as something to learn different/outside from one's true being. It shows the hidden paths only to a right seeker. It is amalgamation of all sciences because it is Para Vidya; causal science of all the material sciences.

It is said that learning a Veda completely takes about 12yrs. Trying to understand/learn it in few days by searching for word patterns will not work. It is like me trying to learn the whole field of Aerospace Engineering in few days by googling about it and expecting to build a space shuttle in a year or two.

But it is never late to start or wrong the pursuit of knowledge, the true knowledge the Para/Brahma Vidya.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 18 Jun 2014 08:32

shiv wrote:"What is in The Vedas?" is a valid question. But I think the answer lies in the huge mass of "post Vedic" (to use a standard modern term) literature - or Upanishads. That post Vedic literature did not come out of nothingness and took from and added to what came from The Vedas...


The inference that Upanishads must come after Vedas is wrong. This is western sequential thinking at work.

Upanishads come throughout the Vedas. Does it mean the karma/ritualistic chapter next to it is where Bharatiya civilization went into next dark age until next upanishad?

I have highlighted the futility of searching for word patterns in English Vedas. English is based on spelling (jeans Vs genes) where as Sanskrit is based on padavibhaga, the meaning of the word changes based on where it got split and each word has many meanings (paryaya padas).

This is like a layman using a mobile phone for generations without knowing the science behind it, and finally when he learns the fundamental electronics that is behind a mobile phone and wondering such a complex and advanced scientific knowledge must have come after the mere ritualistic mobile phone.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 18 Jun 2014 15:09

Hypothetically if we want to commission a mural like the school of Athens, it needs to have the names of the great and good of Bharat from yesteryears to current years. Can such a list be assembled? If a list can be made, its possible to crowd fund it.

link here

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... zio_01.jpg

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2014 22:35

I was thinking about the contrasting ways two situations were handled.

1) Kamsa was the core strength of Jarasandha. One sword cut and Jarasandha becomes a non-entity and after that its just a matter of time before he gets finished off.
2) Karna is the osurce of Duryodhana's tyranny. Despite many opportunities Arjuna never finshes him at the right time.

I think Uttara Gograhana was the right time to finish him off.
Yudhisthira could have no objection for it would be
- in defence of Virata kingdom which the Kauravas had come to raid and Virata had given shelter to the Pandavas and Arjuna was alone against the full Kaurava army
- Karna was instrumental in Draupadi's humiliation after the dice game and
- killing an attatayi is acceptable
- is same situation as Bakasura vadh in Ekachakra puram where Bhima killed Bakassura while getting shelter from the poor Brahmin and his family.
Using that sanmogha astra to put them to sleep was wrong choice.
Mahabharat war had to happen after this lapse.
Since it was inevitable, Krishna rayabharam was also inevitable to neutralize Karna.
I see that as the only important reason for the rayabharam.
Telling paapis they are doing paap wont make them realize it!

Only strange thing is Dhritarasthra who is surrounded by paapis and is instrumental in paap gets the Virata rupa darshana even thought he is born blind.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 19 Jun 2014 00:03

Ramna Sir, I dont think he did. The text is silent. BR Chopra Mahabharat (ep 73/74) , Dhitrastra asks Sanjay what you see, he replies, if you had asked the same boon from Vyasa, you could have seen the same, to which he replies, that Sanjay need not list his misfortunes!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Jun 2014 00:18

Is that in the moolam Vyasa Bharatam? At time of Krishna Raybharam, Krishna gives Dhritharasthra, divydrhisti to see the vishwarupam. And he does not want to see anything else after that and asks for it be taken away.
I think you are referring to the sight given by Vyasa to Sanjaya to see the battle.
So both may be correct.

All though one sight of the Lord is enough.

PS; A couple of years ago was in Tirupati and got to see Balaji at very close proximity.
Next day some in the party had lined up early near where we were staying and complained they had missed the group going to the temple.
So SHQ asked them "Didnt you go to see the temple yesterday? How many times you need to see the temple? If that is the case you never will get enlightenment!!!"

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 19 Jun 2014 01:49

That is story of Surdas (he was born blind, but read his poems that are so vivid). He fell in a well while travelling to somewhere, and cried for the Lord. Lord did appear and gave him sight so he can see him, after seeing Him, he asked Him to take it away as he did not wish to see anything else!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 19 Jun 2014 02:14

What punya Sanjaya had done that he got to see The Vishwaroop? Is there any story about that.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 19 Jun 2014 02:21

ved vyasa offered the divya drishti to dhritarashtra so that he could see war. old man chickened out. So he asked vyasa to give that vision to sanjay. sanjay happened to be at right place at right time and in confidence of right man.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Jun 2014 03:28

panduranghari wrote:What punya Sanjaya had done that he got to see The Vishwaroop? Is there any story about that.



MCS the Telugu pravachanam guru says Dhrithrasthra was fortunate to be surrounded by two great individuals Vidura and Sanjaya.
And this is an example of what being in good company does.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby brihaspati » 19 Jun 2014 05:14

RamaY wrote:
shiv wrote:"What is in The Vedas?" is a valid question. But I think the answer lies in the huge mass of "post Vedic" (to use a standard modern term) literature - or Upanishads. That post Vedic literature did not come out of nothingness and took from and added to what came from The Vedas...


The inference that Upanishads must come after Vedas is wrong. This is western sequential thinking at work.

Upanishads come throughout the Vedas. Does it mean the karma/ritualistic chapter next to it is where Bharatiya civilization went into next dark age until next upanishad?

I have highlighted the futility of searching for word patterns in English Vedas. English is based on spelling (jeans Vs genes) where as Sanskrit is based on padavibhaga, the meaning of the word changes based on where it got split and each word has many meanings (paryaya padas).

This is like a layman using a mobile phone for generations without knowing the science behind it, and finally when he learns the fundamental electronics that is behind a mobile phone and wondering such a complex and advanced scientific knowledge must have come after the mere ritualistic mobile phone.


I favour a parallel development where Upanishads were manifestations of a continuity of thought process, and of a more abstract and philosophical theorizing. Probably also a product of more sophisticated and academic minds. This process had started earlier than "Rig", and Atharva might not have been later but earlier than Rig in its core.

Rig was the version that developed in expanding, warrior, state-forming groups - expanding to the west through Punjab and Gandhar. It would fit the less rigorous linguistics compared to Upanishads. A simpler/more ecstatic/exuberant/soldier's version.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 19 Jun 2014 07:53

Bji,

Every Veda mantra (each one of it) has a Drashta*/Rishi (one who has seen it), so were upanishad mantras. Irrespective of a Rishi is a single individual or a school-of-thought, the Rishis of regular Veda mantras are same as the Rishis of upanishad mantras. For example mantras in Rudra-Namakam 1st Anuvaka have different Rishis. That may mean the 1st Anuvaka of Rudra-Namakam was compiled over time or all those Rishis sang it in one of their BR Jirgas :D

*Drashtha = one who sees what others can't/don't. Vedic knowledge is eternal. It existed all along. Rishis realized portions of this eternal knowledge when they were in deep meditation/contemplation.

A modern analogy would be - Laws of Gravity are eternal. Newton (even if we assume he really discovered them) is the Drashta who has seen them and shared with current round of intelligent life on this planet. In this universe if there existed another planet with intelligent life and there could be someone else there who might have discovered laws of gravity a billion years ago.

JMHT

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby niran » 21 Jun 2014 13:19

ramana wrote:Only strange thing is Dhritarasthra who is surrounded by paapis and is instrumental in paap gets the Virata rupa darshana even thought he is born blind.

he did not see it himself, the Roopam was described to him by Sanjay.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 21 Jun 2014 18:36

niran wrote:
ramana wrote:Only strange thing is Dhritarasthra who is surrounded by paapis and is instrumental in paap gets the Virata rupa darshana even thought he is born blind.

he did not see it himself, the Roopam was described to him by Sanjay.


There were two instances of Viswaroopam

One during Rayabaram. I think here Dritarashtra was given divyadrishti and was able to see viswaroopam.

One during the war, this was sanjaya's description.

Am I right?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2014 19:17

MCs says there are four instances of Vishwaroopam in MB: First is Krishna to Yashodha in the mud swallowing instance, second in the Kaurava rajya sabha to Drhitarasthra, third during Gitopedesa to Arjuna which Sanjaya also saw because of Vyasa giving divyadrhisti to him and last to Uddhava while returning to Dwarka after the war is over. His point is only special individuals get to see this.

BTW MCS in his Bhagavatam commentary part 6 on Krishna leela says this!!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 21 Jun 2014 19:21

Shri Krishna defines a Sithapradnya in the second chapter of Bhagwad Geeta. Shri Krishna himself was one. Is there anyone else in Mahabharata who could be called a Sithapradnya?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2014 19:22

Yudhistra is another one who is unmoved by the chaos around him.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 21 Jun 2014 20:18

ramana wrote:MCs says there are four instances of Vishwaroopam in MB: First is Krishna to Yashodha in the mud swallowing instance, second in the Kaurava rajya sabha to Drhitarasthra, third during Gitopedesa to Arjuna which Sanjaya also saw because of Vyasa giving divyadrhisti to him and last to Uddhava while returning to Dwarka after the war is over. His point is only special individuals get to see this.

BTW MCS in his Bhagavatam commentary part 6 on Krishna leela says this!!!


Thx Saar... I didn't read about Uddhava... New thing learned :)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 21 Jun 2014 21:48

Ramay a request can we use Upanishat instead of Upanishad? Otherwise we will make t disappear from telugu.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Agnimitra » 22 Jun 2014 01:47

X-post from OIT thread:

UlanBatori wrote:I will also post one of my caveats:
The reason why I ask "What is in the Vedas" is so that I can define exactly what is "Sruti" and avoid infringing there.

I don't believe this has been posted here before, so here goes. This is Madhva's Karma Nirnaya - which talks about how the Veda is not just about karma-kanda but also jnana-kanda, i.e., it talks about the coordinates for giving meaning to Veda.

Madhva's Karma Nirnaya PDF (Sanskrit)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Jun 2014 01:48

panduranghari wrote:Shri Krishna defines a Sithapradnya in the second chapter of Bhagwad Geeta. Shri Krishna himself was one. Is there anyone else in Mahabharata who could be called a Sithapradnya?

Vidura might fit the definition. His behavior was like a Sthiataprajna - stoic and also along his 'Swadharma'

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Jun 2014 01:53

panduranghari wrote:Shri Krishna defines a Sithapradnya in the second chapter of Bhagwad Geeta. Shri Krishna himself was one. Is there anyone else in Mahabharata who could be called a Sithapradnya?

Bhima also fits the definition, especially if one looks at all the references of MBH text to build biographies of personalities.

Unfortunately, too much exaggerated and incorrect content about Bhima in Indian psyche (propagated by many religious and secular, alike, who rarely read Mahabharata in the original, and even few cases when they did, chose to select only stuff that suited their agenda).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 22 Jun 2014 04:58

matrimc wrote:Ramay a request can we use Upanishat instead of Upanishad? Otherwise we will make t disappear from telugu.


Sure sir. I stand corrected.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby niran » 22 Jun 2014 10:48

ramana wrote:and last to Uddhava while returning to Dwarka after the war is over. His point is only special individuals get to see this.

BTW MCS in his Bhagavatam commentary part 6 on Krishna leela says this!!!

Thanks a ton Saar, never new about Udhava episode.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby kmkraoind » 22 Jun 2014 22:31



A small rendition of Nachiketa-Yama samvaada. Its Beautiful.

Once Temples are freed from govt's endowment dept, let all Temple hosts a small story telling of our Puranas, Indian epics at least for once a week.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 23 Jun 2014 07:24

kmkrao, You have outdone yourself.

Thanks a tonne!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 25 Jun 2014 05:49

Working on a project - Need help.

(1) Let's start with story of Ahalya (Ahalya-Gautam) in the context of Ramayana. While Valmiki Ramayana story of Ahalya is straightforward, it is been twisted and turned in many different ways as commentaries (or versions) of Ramayana were written, all over India.

If the Jnanis here please briefly narrate the story they know (and preferably) with the appropriate reference (e.g. Tulasi Ramayana, Ekanath Ramayana, etc.) it would be a great help,.

Appreciate your help,

You may send (if you so choose) the story/version you know, directly to my email at first name last name googlwala (gmail).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 25 Jun 2014 15:40

Nilesh Oak ji, I will give you the details from Ram Charitra Manas and Valmiki Ramayan (better, I will post a link, need time). But to my recollection, the story goes like this - Ahalya was created by Brahma (and had un-paralleled beauty). He gave her to Gautam muni to raise her, who did with all care. When she grew up, Brahma was pleased by Gautama muni devotion and gave Ahalya as his wife. Ahalya lived like a hermit, and she was said to be the most beautiful women in creation. Indra, saw and lusted for her. One day While Gautama muni was out, he changed himself into Gautama Rishi, and did the unthinkable (from the lord of Demigod to one of Saptrish's wife). While they were coming out of the hut, Gautam Rishi also came and saw and understood what has happened. He cursed both, Ahalya turning stone to be freed by God himself, while Indra has 1000s of Vag*na all over his body.
Where the various texts differ - did Ahalya knew? Was she stone or invisible etc etc.


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