Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2014 22:03

Atri my response in open forum.


BTW, I have the full Shanti, Anushasan Parvas discourse in Telugu on my phone and listen during long commutes.


I want us to get hold of Shukra, Brihaspati, Vakra and Bahuka nitis and have them as ready reference to understand the Chanakaya niti.

He says he had distilled many of the past writers in his Artha shastra.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Jul 2014 19:24

Those members living in or near the Bay Area should see this annual Ramayana production:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 140710.htm
Gautam

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby prahaar » 12 Jul 2014 20:21

Can anyone provide some information about the origin of "Satyanarayana katha"? The Marathi version I have read multiple times consists of a 5 adhyaya stories. I was interested to know about the era which these stories belong. There are some interesting customs mentioned, like free movement of different jatis (wood seller goes to brahmin's house, gopis socialize with king, etc.). Ghar Jamai. In-land waterways based trade.

Most of these elements are not so common in not only contemporary Bharat but also in the recent history as known in our schools.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby manju » 13 Jul 2014 15:58

http://advaitaashrama.org/AudioDownload

you can download lectures, talks, bajans.. from the Ramakrishna Ashram website

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby manju » 13 Jul 2014 16:01


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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 18 Jul 2014 17:19

How does dharma view euthanasia?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 18 Jul 2014 19:09

krishna says whoever dies in kurukshetra@mb.war goes to heaven. did everyone who died there ended up in heaven? any deviations?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jul 2014 20:16

PH: Vanaprastha is mentoring after retirement and sanyasa is a symbolic euthanasia with reducing ones foot print to as small as possible. IMHO and all that, of course.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 18 Jul 2014 20:33

matrimc wrote:PH: Vanaprastha is mentoring after retirement and sanyasa is a symbolic euthanasia with reducing ones foot print to as small as possible. IMHO and all that, of course.


MatrimC garu,

I am toying with the idea of defining Vanaprastha as the age when one's children (or direct dependents like siblings) complete their education and enter into grihastha ashrama (once one completes education and joins employment there is no reason for them not to get married; except for personal choice).

Given the average marriage age of 25 and having kids before 30, the head of the family (often the wife can be a little younger) should enter Grihastha ashrama by 55-58 Yrs (current retirement age).

Sanyasa ashrama comes when one spends time with grand-children before the grand-children enter into Brahmacharya (in old days it was 8yrs old). So around 58+8 = 66 yrs.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jul 2014 22:05

RamaY: Yes, 66 years is a good time to start reducing one's footprint on the world. IOW, one should stop all nabobi ayyashis like gas guzzling luxury cars, brand name outfits, expensive phirang daAru (for US people Scotch and Stoli), being foot lose to satisfy one's wanderlust on jets (which are extremely bad for environment), perfumes, blood diamonds, avarice, exotic food and wine (and err... women if one is so inclined et al. Follow gnyAna marga for mOksha siddhi - that is a good 15-20 year journey.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 18 Jul 2014 22:38

^then i am already 100 or 400 hanuman years by that measure.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 19 Jul 2014 00:05

MatrimC garu.. both my boys will be completing undergrad next year (most likely). I am planning to R2I to go into Vanaprastha mode by 2016

My definition of Vanaprastha (in contemporary world):

- Try to move away from salaried employment (so someone else can get employment) to employment creation fields (professional/entrepreneurial etc) OR live on life savings
- Spend all yearly savings (after personal expenditure) will either be donated to social-service projects OR NPO social service organizations (like Rangde.org)
- Become a mentor for youth in field of one's interest/expertise
- Participate/contribute in Dharmic Social activities
- Propagate Sanatana Dharma within and outside Family
- Reduce Eco foot print by 50%

Samnyasa should bring down per capita eco-footprint to 20-25% of Grihastha

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 Jul 2014 01:24

RamaY: I think the foot print reduction should be a gentle under-damped event starting at about 55+ to the time of (hopefully?) moksha from this sansara. I would say keep reducing continuously from the last 1/8th of grihastha to jeevanmukthi with stock taking at at 55, 65 and 75 years of age and any corrections even if they mean taking drastic steps to achieve spending more and more time in introversion and thought.

Of course, the ages at which stock-taking has to occur vary from person to person.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2014 01:25

SaiK wrote:krishna says whoever dies in kurukshetra@mb.war goes to heaven. did everyone who died there ended up in heaven? any deviations?



SaiK, What I get from the puranas etc is there are only two ways to get moksha: die in battle filed or lead a pious life to rejoin Parmatma.

In Svargarohana Parva, the Pandavas see the Kauravas an all others in swarga lok. If you run out tof your punya bank or do bad stuff there you come back to Earth eg Nahusha, so on.

In Stree Parva, Vyasa gives the option to all the widows to join their husbands killed in the war and get moksha and most of them do so.

Its important to read or hear Vyasa Bharatam and not English versions which have selective rendering.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 19 Jul 2014 07:46

Klaus wrote:
RamaY wrote:SA-varna, SA-Kula


Kindly elaborate on SA-varna & SA-kula.


Klaus ji,

This is what I think (Pls correct me if I got it wrong).

Bhagavan Sri Krishna says in BG that (chatur varna maya srishtam guna karma vibhagasha) says that the Varna of an individual is driven by Guna & Karma (even if it is of past lives). Assuming an individual is given an option to choose the Varna of his choice, s/he would choose the varna that resonates his Guna (temperament, attitude) and karma (Buddhi karmaanusaarinaa!). There is no escape from this. Probably that's why Bhagavan continues his statement with 'even I cannot undo it' (tasya kartawramapimawm viddya akartawramavyayam.).

Now if we look around, any individual with absolute freedom to choose their life partner, would choose someone that resonates with his/her own Guna & Karma; in other words SA-varna marriage. That's why we see the so-called love marriages to be of SA-varna in nature to the extent that IT people marrying IT people, doctors marrying doctors etc, of course for convenience and mutual compatibility. I read lot of junk news papers in telugu and they write juicy (in terms of psychology) stories about extra-marital affairs and love murders etc., that explains this. When the society gave the education suitable to one's varna, there was no need for love-marriage because parents found them not against the system.

That's my rationale behind SA-varna marriages.

Coming to SA-Kula marriages, these are mostly arranged by families or outsourced to parents by young for, again, convenience. The parents in addition to looking at basic socio-economic comfort zones, rely mostly on already established Kula-definitions; which themselves started based on some Varna a long long time ago.

Here parents/families rely more on Karma (the reason a soul chooses a specific life in a given cycle) than Guna because they assume the Karma (or initial conditions) have more influence on a certain outcome than an individual's choices/perseverance (as many secular, modern liberals think about aiITs and Ivy Leagues - getting into IIT, the initial condition, is good enough irrespective on one's intellectual aptitude). This is just a less risky option for individuals. This is same as an Indian preferring an Indian spouse than say an African spouse; Kula being a much more specific preference group.

Going thru the life trajectories that we, here on BRF, have gone thru we can sufficiently understand/appreciate this rationale. Only a handful of us moved beyond the life-changes that are destined by our initial conditions be it social, economic, spiritual or nationalistic planes of mind.

For example I am an Indian, my spouse is say an African. When we have our children if someone asks what's her background she would say Indo-African (mixed blood) and people do not get worked up hearing this. But secular minds get worked up if/when my daughter says she is called a Nishada because she is mix of Brahmana-Sudra! English words are good, Samskruta words are digressing to a secular mind (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm)

This is what I am calling a SA-Kula marriage.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 21 Jul 2014 17:41

RamaY and Matrimc saar log
Thanks for your darshanas.

I believe Swantantryaveer Savarkar undertook atmaarpaan. That's as close to self administered euthanasia as I think can be. More information appreciated.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby KLNMurthy » 21 Jul 2014 18:59

This is a great thread.

One very good resource for nature of Hinduism and comparison with Abrahamic religions is "Hinduism" by Swami Vivekananda.

Here is what I understood by picking up the religion by osmosis, and a bit from personal experience:

Veda or knowledge doesn't refer to orderly intellectual information as viewed by science. It may be likened more to art or music, to be practiced and experienced, as a way to become at one with this awareness. It has its own structure and organization given by Vyasa.

Upanishads are approximately the intellectual content of Veda told as stories.

Bhagavad Gita is like Cliff Notes or Pass Guide, except that it also has the magic of Veda since the author is the Embodiment of Knowledge Himself. It is a bit like Feynmann's lectures on physics.

Mahabharata is again a Veda in that it is a non-abstract rendering of The Knowledge in literature form. Having Bhagavad Gita as a part of it is a key reason for this status.

The Jn~ana referred to in Gita is not intellectual information but an integrated self-awareness. This is the same as the popular awareness technique taught by Buddha known as Vipasyana.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 21 Jul 2014 19:03

KLNMurthy wrote:The Jn~ana referred to in Gita is not intellectual information but an integrated self-awareness. This is the same as the popular awareness technique taught by Buddha known as Vipasyana.


Did Buddha actually teach Vipasyana- or is it an assumption. I find it incredulous because within a short life span Buddha did teach a lot of stuff. Even Shri Krishna taught only Bhagwad Gita within his life span. However, the things attributed to Buddha are too many. Just a curious question.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby kenop » 21 Jul 2014 19:53

As per the Theravada-Goenka lineage:
Vipassana was rediscovered by Buddha. It was also taught by him. However, the proofs/references provided are not quite convincing. This is due to the fact that Buddha does not seem to refer to the technique by this name anywhere and a few (very few indeed) pointers are provided where the work vipassana occurs (BG is one reference that I remember as cited by the Theravada-Goenka teachings). However, the theory of vipassana is to be found in Satipathana Sutra which is taught in Theravada-Goenka school (there is a special retreat one can take in which this Sutra is explained) . To me it looks that the Satipathana Sutra was codified in some way in this vipassana lineage. BTW, Goenka was trained in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin which claims to be an unbroken chain of masters to Buddha.
So, there is a claim but not quite clear. Purely personal opinion based on some contact with vipassana.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Jul 2014 05:12

panduranghari wrote:RamaY and Matrimc saar log
Thanks for your darshanas.

I believe Swantantryaveer Savarkar undertook atmaarpaan. That's as close to self administered euthanasia as I think can be. More information appreciated.


Swatantryaveer Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Acharya (Bharat Ratna) Vinayak Narahar Bhave - Vinoba are two individuals I know of, from recent times who undertook atmaarpaan.

Jainism discusses this method under 'Santhara'. Vinoba explicitly refers to it.

Both these individuals remained intellectually active until the last and at the same time modified their approach along the lines of ....karta...Bharta, Bhokta.. Maheshwaram (of Gita).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby member_20317 » 22 Jul 2014 10:58

ramana wrote:SaiK, What I get from the puranas etc is there are only two ways to get moksha: die in battle filed or lead a pious life to rejoin Parmatma.


Bhakti and Karma yoga too.


The way I have understood it is that 'whatever' allows the limited expression (elemental man & his intellect):

1) to accept the existence beyond himself and his existential goals; and

2) to bring his own existential goals in line with the the larger existence (expressible or inexpressible); and

3) the 'whatever' is a path of acceptance/confidence/shradha,

can be a valid path to moksh.

Using the word 'can' only because my own understanding is not fully grown and there may be more.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 22 Jul 2014 14:05

Nilesh Oak wrote:
panduranghari wrote:RamaY and Matrimc saar log
Thanks for your darshanas.

I believe Swantantryaveer Savarkar undertook atmaarpaan. That's as close to self administered euthanasia as I think can be. More information appreciated.


Swatantryaveer Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Acharya (Bharat Ratna) Vinayak Narahar Bhave - Vinoba are two individuals I know of, from recent times who undertook atmaarpaan.

Jainism discusses this method under 'Santhara'. Vinoba explicitly refers to it.

Both these individuals remained intellectually active until the last and at the same time modified their approach along the lines of ....karta...Bharta, Bhokta.. Maheshwaram (of Gita).


Thank you saar.

Would you concur that atmaarpaan is close enough to euthanasia? If not then why not?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 22 Jul 2014 14:09

ramana wrote:
SaiK, What I get from the puranas etc is there are only two ways to get moksha: die in battle filed or lead a pious life to rejoin Parmatma.

In Svargarohana Parva, the Pandavas see the Kauravas an all others in swarga lok. If you run out tof your punya bank or do bad stuff there you come back to Earth eg Nahusha, so on.

In Stree Parva, Vyasa gives the option to all the widows to join their husbands killed in the war and get moksha and most of them do so.

Its important to read or hear Vyasa Bharatam and not English versions which have selective rendering.


Saar,
In second chapter of BG

Bhagwan Shri Krishna says the following - HATO VA PRAPYASI SWARGAM, JITVA VA BHOGSHASE MAHEEM TASMAD UTHISHT KAUNTEYA, YUDHAYE KRIT NISCHAYA

This means dying in the kuruskhetra will lead to only swarga. Not Moksha.

The from verse 31 onwards I believe he elaborates on the Karma yog which will lead to the understanding of Samkhya (which is explained up until verse 30). Only this will lead to Moksha.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 22 Jul 2014 14:11

kenop wrote:As per the Theravada-Goenka lineage:
Vipassana was rediscovered by Buddha. It was also taught by him. However, the proofs/references provided are not quite convincing. This is due to the fact that Buddha does not seem to refer to the technique by this name anywhere and a few (very few indeed) pointers are provided where the work vipassana occurs (BG is one reference that I remember as cited by the Theravada-Goenka teachings). However, the theory of vipassana is to be found in Satipathana Sutra which is taught in Theravada-Goenka school (there is a special retreat one can take in which this Sutra is explained) . To me it looks that the Satipathana Sutra was codified in some way in this vipassana lineage. BTW, Goenka was trained in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin which claims to be an unbroken chain of masters to Buddha.
So, there is a claim but not quite clear. Purely personal opinion based on some contact with vipassana.


Thanks Kenop saar.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2014 20:52

You are right. There is difference between swarga and Moksha.One can get kicked out of the former as many were. The Tri yoga path leads to mokhsa.

----
I have question on the Mahbharat war.

In the Star TV rendering of the Mahabharata, around the time of Chakrayvuyha, the actor playing Bhima says that Pandava strength is reduced to two units while Kaurava is around seven units. Is this right?

Has anyone done a running tab on the two sides as the war progressed?

It started with Pandavas 7 and Kauravas 11 each.
By 18th day only a handful were left on both sides.

---
Also Star TV seems to be infected with subalternitis for Karna and depecit him as a noble character which is not there in Vyasa Bharatam.

MB is not a story but an itihaas: that which happened.

So taking poetic license is wrong.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 22 Jul 2014 21:14

Ramanaji I remember posting the numbers on both sides before.. will search for it..

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 23 Jul 2014 05:05

panduranghari wrote:Would you concur that atmaarpaan is close enough to euthanasia? If not then why not?

This is an interesting question.

I think these two are distinct if one assigns the widely accepted end goal to euthanasia which is to "escape"/"to allow the escape of" physical (and/or mental - in case of mental illnesses like Alzheimers) pain through death. The only conclusion one can reach is that the people who willingly euthanize themselves/get euthanized believe life to be a clockwork machanism. Complex may be but still a mechanism where the end condition of the mechanism deteriorating into a state of non-operation is predetermined. This belief in turn precludes both soul and God (to use western constructs). This view is a direct contradiction of the beliefs propounded by fundamental religions (or religions of the book) and hence are to be excommunicated (or in middle ages or those who want the humanity to go back to stone age - to be burnt at stake, males are to be decapitated and women to be taken as wives/keeps/concubines in a paishAchika/rAkshasa vivaha).

In case of atmArpaNa: mOksha is nothing but the realization that Atma and paramAtma are one and the same (at least according to advaita). For this realization to occur, one has to start with a belief in the existence of Atma and paramAtma at the minimum. Once the realization occurs, whether the body is a simply an automaton or not is irrelevant. In fact bhagawatgIta says the same in the shloka "vAsAmsi jeeRNAni ...".

My two cents.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2014 05:34

Panduranghari, If I understand euthanasia is taking away life support for a person who is unable to express free will and thus not live as a human being.

Atmaarpan is suicide by free will. So there is question of free will involved.

Both are not same.

Need to find better logic for euthansia.

Suppose we find some description of what is human and how loss of human capability renders one to a non-human state that would be a good case to discuss.


IMHO it will be a derivative case from logic.

And then has to be bounced with Rig Veda's "Ahmisa parmo dharmah"

What about Ganga drowning her new borns? Is that an example of euthanasia killing those with no free will?
But then Shantanu objects as the new born have a life to live. So not a good example for euthanasia.

Kamsa killing Devaki's new born also is considered wrong.


So you are asking a difficult question.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 23 Jul 2014 05:49

JMHT

Atmarpana makes sense only when one is content and does it with a sense of fulfillment.


Om Try-Ambakam Yajaamahe
Sugandhim Pusstti-Vardhanam
Urvaarukam-Iva Bandhanaan
Mrtyor-Mukssiiya Maa-[A]mrtaat ||


The cucumber should be separated from its creeper out of fulfillment not out of despair!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 23 Jul 2014 13:44

Thanks for all the darshanas.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpo ... stcount=11

Garuda Purana 2.22.8-13: "Those who meet with foul death such as 
committing suicide by hanging from a tree, by poison or weapon,
.....
...
..
become ghosts and roam over the earth."


Removal of Life Support
According to Vedic principles, removal of life support systems is justified when the assistive device is the major impediment to the death process. Ayurveda also allows for suspension of hydration and nourishment at the request of a terminally ill patient who chooses to fast, even if such fasting will accelerate death. Prayopavesha, voluntary fasting unto death for those who are terminally ill, is to be undertaken only under the authority and with the blessings of senior members of the patient�s faith.

Suicide
According to sastra, suicide postpones and intensifies karma. However, as stated above, Ayurvedic ethics allow prayopavesha, voluntary death by fasting. The patient making such a decision must declare it publicly, to distinguish the act from suicide committed privately in traumatic emotional states of anguish and despair, and to allow for family and religious community intervention. Prayopavesha is allowed when the patient is unable to perform normal bodily purification, death appears imminent, and pain and suffering are extreme (such that mitigating them would entail loss of consciousness). Prayopavesha is gradual, and allows the patient to reflect and reconsider his/her decision. After due deliberation, voluntary fasting unto death should be undertaken as sadhana, with the support of a community of faith.

- Kj. Nimai Nitai Das (formerly writing for this journal as Murari Chaitanya dasa) is a Preceptor in the Suddha Ayurveda Vidyalaya, and an Asst. Clinical Professor of Family Medicine & Community Health at Tufts University School of Medicine. He can be reached at PositiveAyurveda@comcast.net

Although the Vedas reject the suicide, dying by fasting (prayopavista) is the only authorized, karma-free way to die. An example is Maharaja Pariksit (SB 1.4.10, 1.19.5,7,12,18, 12.12.57).

- vedabase


Not to split hairs, but if we believe that a soul can reincarnate into anything, isn't it just as wrong to terminate a sick animal's life thereby "cheating" its karma?

Yes, although it may sound harsh and cruel, people who advocate passive over active have the same thing to say about animals, pets. It is not our business to interfere with the soul's path and short-circuit the animal's karma, rather leave the terminally ill animal alone with food and water and pray for it, pray to alleviate its pain in this body, chant Mahamantra, KrushNa's holy names, kirtan ...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 23 Jul 2014 14:05

Shri Raama performed AatmaarpaNa.. He jumped in Sarayu river and ended his life (avatar, whatever one chooses to call this). Same is case with balarama. He simply vanished into ocean (i.e. walked into it).

Savarkar and Bhave performed a ritual called praayopaveshana (प्रायोपवेशन). Praayopaveshana is different. One has to make sure that one does not owe anything to anyone and one has fulfilled all the duties associated with children, relatives, society, nation, humanity and family. You have to get permission from all of these that you do not owe any "RNa (ऋण)" to any of these. Once you get that permission, you gradually leave food, then water and then air (i.e - you pass away). Savarkar fasted for 21 days before passing away. And he was "aware" till the last minute. It was as if he went willingly. I also heard the case of some hindu guru doing same in 2001-02. Don't know the name.

In ancient times, King Parikshit undertook this prayopaveshana vrata and fasted similarly for 18-19 days while listening to Mahabharat and Srimad Bhagvatam (as the story tells)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby TKiran » 23 Jul 2014 18:12

Ramana gaaru, it is very difficult to imagine Karna as a 'bad man' though he was one of the 'dushta chatushtaya' . I fact when I asked one of the gurus, his opinion was that 'Karna's characters is one of the finest examples of how a 'good man' in nature can become 'bad man' by association. Karna could not come out of his association with 'evil' because of his lack of 'gnyana' that he had the option of breaking out of shackles of self imposed 'loyalty'. Actually Duryodhana does not have a right to make him 'Anga' king as he was only prince whereas 'dhritarashtra' had the had that right as 'chakravarthi'.

Karna is a gifted warrior with 'sahaja kavachakundala'. He needed not have given em up, He had the knowledge of 'dharma' but did not speak up against 'draupadi' vastrapaharanam, he did have choices, and he never took right decisions. Actually he always took the decisions, which are 'adharma' . He is one big confused soul. That is why even 'Krishna' had sympathy for him.

Karna's charecter is a perfect example of how a goodman can become bad man by association,

Krishna takes away all his 'punya' karmas by asking him to give as 'daana' all the fruits of his 'sat karma'. Then only he could be killed by 'arjuna'.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 23 Jul 2014 18:16

^ Run away from that Guru TKiran garu. You don't need a Guru who teaches you Adharma.

Pls read Anusasana Parva where Narada & Bhishma gives proper assessment of Karna to Dharmaraja.

Duryodhana was simply a moorkha (someone who makes wrong decisions even when strong evidence is available against that decision). Karna was not only Murkha but also deceptive. It is Duryodhana who lost due to Karna's association.

Karna left Duryodhana alone everytime he was needed very badly; be it in Jaitrayatra or uttaragograhana or during Bhishmaparva.

Karna knew about the curses he had from his Guru Parasurama. He told Duryodhana that he has Astras but intentionally hid the fact that those Astras are useless because he won't remember them at the time of need.

Karna went missing during Jaitrayatra and came only after Duryodhana was rescued by Bhima/Arjuna giving excuses.

Then he failed, along with all other Kuru warriors, in uttaragograhana against lone Arjuna.

Then even after knowing how important the war was for Duryodhana, he stood aside for first 10 days of the war out of false ego. What kind of friend/servant would do that?
Last edited by RamaY on 23 Jul 2014 18:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby TKiran » 23 Jul 2014 18:21

Murkha i can understand, deceptive how?

RamaY garu, you are saying Karna lacked 'condor' disclose 'Truth nothing but the Truth, and complete Truth' and chose to disclose 'half truth'. OK agreed. Cant we give him the benefit of doubt that he hid some of the truth because he feared that if he disclosed the complete truth he will lose his job. Afterall he did it only to protect his job. In fact, in my own career i came across many people, who dont lie, but tell half truths but when caught, confess the complete truth, ask for pardon and take my guidance and execute their duties, and all iz well in the end.

I have a problem with identifying subtle ness of Dharma.

To me if a person lies, it is Adharma. Ill sack that guy, the moment i hear lies from his mouth. I have a softcorner for those who lack the condor, after all i myself would be giving the reason for their sins to convince myself. Am Whats wrong with me, am I acting like Duryodhana, who will ultimately be remembered as 'bad man'?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby TKiran » 23 Jul 2014 19:50

Regarding Karna's false ego, was nt that provoked by Bhishma? Im not supporting Karna, but asking a question if Karna was really Artharatha?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 23 Jul 2014 20:06

TKiran garu,

We have discussed about Karna many times on this thread. Please use the posts mentioned in this search and use them to read other poster's opinions on the same search.php?keywords=karna&terms=all&author=RamaY&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

OR the best way for you to do is read Aadi and Anusasana parva of Vyasabharata.

This is what you said about Karna in past 3-4 posts
1/he hid some of the truth because he feared that if he disclosed the complete truth he will lose his job

2/Karna could not come out of his association with 'evil' because of his lack of 'gnyana'

3/He had the knowledge of 'dharma' but did not speak up against 'draupadi' vastrapaharanam

4/he did have choices, and he never took right decisions. Actually he always took the decisions, which are 'adharma'


And you call him Hero?

We praise Karna for he gave KavachaKundala to Indra going against his own father's (Sun) advise. But we ignore the fact that he took his father's advise to ask Shakti in return from Indra - nullifying the whole concept of Dana. Karna at that time was like a suicide-bomber - I should kill Arjuna even if I lose my life. The key fact to remember in all this is the fact that Karna's Astras are duds (like paki nukes) due to Parasurama curse. So the only potent weapon he had when he entered MB war was Shakti, and he got that from Indra.

Lying isnt Adharma on its own unless you attach the context and purpose to it. Lying to protect Dharma is Dharma, even if it is aapaddharma.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2014 20:12

TKiran, The contrast to Karna is Bhisma and not Arjuna. Think about it.

Dharma is subtle as Bhisma says but there is a template. Follow yuddhistir and you will get the template.

Think of a four quadrants.
Dharma looks dharmic regardless of time and paristhithi. That is Dharma is invariant in this quadrant.
Second quadrant: Dharma looks like adharmic with time and paraisthithi.
Third quadrant: Adharma looks adharmic all the time. Thatsi Adharma is invariant in this quadrant.
Fourth Quadrant: Adharma looks dharmic.

The guy telling lies could be in second or fourth quadrant or third quadrant.

If he is in third quadrant then he deserves to be punished.
If he is in second quadrant you need to inquire.
If he is in fourth quadrant then also he needs corrective action or punishment.


Need to worry about second and fourth quadrants as its effected by time or kaal and situation or paristithi.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 23 Jul 2014 22:23

Karna has more to the story attached. It could be that everything arises out of HIM and his desire!! All action that we think we do is actually HIM, the doer, the action and the fruit. At Soul level, we have no guna (no papa or punya), it is his Maya that make us think about good and bad. Sun's son (Sugriva) was helped by the Lord and Indra Son (Bali) was killed by Him. Now, fate of Karna was sealed that day. In next janma, it was Son of Indra who was Lord's favorite and it was Karna who was at the recieving end (again not because of the Lord, but his own actions, but I guess his fate was sealed). He was born to Kunti while unmarried, (not his fault, but that his how the dice got thrown), was raised by a charioter (a king could have adopted him, he was very tejaswi from birth, being Sun's ansha). He lied to get knowldge (the great sears would not teach him), but in Dwapar yuga, lying was bad and uncommon, lying to Guru a no-no. His becoming Anga's king was nothing. Anga belonged to Jarasandha that time, who was the emperor and Anga is less than 100 miles from his capital (impossible, he would not have ruled it). He gets attached to the wrong guy for a wrong and worthless gift. ...I can go on and on. bottom line is he foreshook HIM and that is where he landed (that too when the Lord in physical menisfistation is standing in front of him, being Sun's ansh, how much blind you have to be to not recoganize him!!). That kind of person can never be good, he must have been so deep in paap (or aham or vengence or jealousy) that he could not recoganize truth, right/wrong or the Lord.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby TKiran » 24 Jul 2014 06:12

Wow i feel so good now after getting to know about Karna. Such a wrong notions i used to keep for so long, suddenly i feel enlightened. Thank you Ramana gaaru, RamaY gaaru. I never experienced this state of mind before.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Yayavar » 25 Jul 2014 21:59

matrimc wrote:RamaY: Yes, 66 years is a good time to start reducing one's footprint on the world. IOW, one should stop all nabobi ayyashis like gas guzzling luxury cars, brand name outfits, expensive phirang daAru (for US people Scotch and Stoli), being foot lose to satisfy one's wanderlust on jets (which are extremely bad for environment), perfumes, blood diamonds, avarice, exotic food and wine (and err... women if one is so inclined et al. Follow gnyAna marga for mOksha siddhi - that is a good 15-20 year journey.


yikes! am I 66 already :) ...except wanderlust for me requires jet travel often.

Joking aside, interesting reads in this thread. thx.


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