Understanding Punjab and History

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RayC
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Understanding Punjab and History

Post by RayC »

Punjabi people
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Punjabis
ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ,پنجابی


List of Punjabis:
1st row: L.A Khan, M. Iqbal, Manmohan Singh, Bhagat Singh
2st row: Amir Khan, Wasim Akram, J.M Singh, The Great Khali
3st row: A.N Janjua, Nadia Ali, H. Roshan, Kalpana Chawla
Total population
120 million (estimated)
Regions with significant populations
Pakistan 76,335,300 [1]
India 29,109,672 [2]
United Kingdom 2,300,000 [3]
Canada 800,000 [4]
United Arab Emirates 720,000
United States 640,000
Saudi Arabia 620,000
Hong Kong 260,000
Malaysia 185,000
South Africa 140,000
Languages

Punjabi
Religion

• Islam 70% • Sikhism 15% • Hinduism 10%
• Buddhism • Christianity • Jainism • Atheism
Related ethnic groups

• Indo-Aryans • Rajputs • Gujjar •Jats • Hindkowans • Seraikis • Indo-Scythians

The Punjabi people (Punjabi:ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ,پنجابی also Panjabi people) are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group from South Asia. They originate from the Punjab region, which has been host to some of the oldest civilizations in the world including one of the world's first and oldest civilizations, the Indus Valley Civilization. The Punjabi identity is primarily cultural and linguistic, with Punjabis being those whose first language is Punjabi, an Indo-European tongue. In recent times, however, the definition has been broadened to include also emigrants of Punjabi descent who maintain Punjabi cultural traditions, even when they no longer speak the language.

Punjabis are mostly and primarily found in the Punjab region, of India & Pakistan, which forms the present Indian state of Punjab and Pakistan province of Punjab , this is because the Punjab region was divided between the two nations at independence from Britain. In Pakistan, Punjabis comprise the largest ethnic group at roughly 60% of the total population of the country and reside predominantly in the province (state) of Punjab and Azad Kashmir. In India, Punjabis represent about 3% of the population. The majority of Punjabi-speaking people in India can be found across the greater Punjab region which comprises the states of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Delhi and the Union Territory of Chandigarh. Besides these, large communities are also found in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir and the Indian states of Rajasthan, Uttaranchal and Uttar Pradesh.

Punjabi is the most spoken language in Pakistan and 11th most spoken language in India and 3rd most spoken language in South Asia. According to the Ethnologue 2005 estimate[5], there are 88 million native speakers of the Punjabi language, which makes it approximately the 11th most widely spoken language in the world. According to the 2008 Census of Pakistan[6], there are approximately 76,335,300 native speakers of Punjabi in Pakistan, and according to the Census of India, there are over 29,102,477 Punjabi speakers in India[7]. Punjabi is also spoken as a minority language in several other countries where Punjabis have emigrated in large numbers, such as the United Kingdom (where it is the second most commonly used language[8]) and Canada, where in recent times Punjabi has grown fast and has now become the fourth most spoken language.[9]. Punjabi is the 2nd most common language in the UK after English. The 4th most common spoken language in Canada after English, French and Chinese. There are also sizable communities in United States, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Persian Gulf countries, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand.

Punjabis are ethno-linguistically and culturally related to the other Indo-Aryan peoples of South Asia. There are an estimated 120 million Punjabis around the world.
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surinder
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Re: Punjab and Origin

Post by surinder »

The religion based-statistics seem suspect. My shot would be: 60% Musleem, 30% Hindus, 10% Sikhs (of all Punjabis). The article says "Islam 70% • Sikhism 15% • Hinduism 10%", which cannot be true. # of Sikhs < Hindus << Mulsims. This innaccuracy could probably be due to 2 reasons: (1) TSP'ians have been editing the page, and (2) maybe the statistics from India are distorted due to many punjabis not owning to their ethnicity because they no more speak Punjabi as a language.
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Re: Punjab and Origin

Post by Abhi_G »

^^^
TSP-ians are editing that page. The same happens with the Bengal page - Bangladeshis edit that.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Singha »

one of the more clear headed articles I have seen on pakistan, minus the "great game/they are our ********" baggage and tired hopeful slogans of bringing the lethal dog to heel.

in the comments , what is this all about?

Seraiki people are worried
Submitted by shahjahan (not verified) on August 17, 2009 - 4:56pm.

Punjabi has been ruling Pakistan ever since the murder of M. A. Jinnah. Seraiki who make 80% of Pakistan were divided among four provinces by British. Today you find them in Baluchistan, Punjab, Sindh and NWFP. They have been mistreated by the world since centuries. They were repressed by Sikhs, Hindus, Afghans and Britishers. They are waking up now. They are asking for a separate province for themselves and rulers in Pakistan are paying deaf ears. If they are not given a provincial status that they deserve, then they may opt for independent Seraikistan. I shall request western media to help us. We are a unique culture. We have a different language and we have the best fertile land in the region. No one deny us the basic right to have a separate identity. We don't like war but if the kind of repression continues we shall take arms to get our rights.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Singha wrote: in the comments , what is this all about?

Seraiki people are worried
. . . If they are not given a provincial status that they deserve, then they may opt for independent Seraikistan. . . .
Seraiki is one of the oldest languages spoken in Multan areas of South Punjab as well as Sind. A Seraiki movement started in the 60s for a separate Serakistan (Sargodha, Multan, DG Khan, Rahim Yar Khan, Rajanpur, Jhang, and Bahawalpur divisions of South Punjab). The Seraiki Movement is also against the dominance of the North Punjabis over the South Punjabis.

We also know that the main concentration of the 'Punjabi Taliban' is in the South Punjab areas and the North Punjabis are the largest recruits in the PA. There are some interesting possibilities.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Vikas »

SSridhar wrote:
Singha wrote: in the comments , what is this all about?

Seraiki people are worried
. . . If they are not given a provincial status that they deserve, then they may opt for independent Seraikistan. . . .
Seraiki is one of the oldest languages spoken in Multan areas of South Punjab as well as Sind. A Seraiki movement started in the 60s for a separate Serakistan (Sargodha, Multan, DG Khan, Rahim Yar Khan, Rajanpur, Jhang, and Bahawalpur divisions of South Punjab). The Seraiki Movement is also against the dominance of the North Punjabis over the South Punjabis.

We also know that the main concentration of the 'Punjabi Taliban' is in the South Punjab areas and the North Punjabis are the largest recruits in the PA. There are some interesting possibilities.
Do we have any BRF-ite who is Seraiki speaking or belonging to Seraiki belt ? How different is this language from Punjabi ? Is it hybrid of Hindi/punjabi + ?? or completely standalone langauge.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Do we have any BRF-ite who is Seraiki speaking or belonging to Seraiki belt ? How different is this language from Punjabi ? Is it hybrid of Hindi/punjabi + ?? or completely standalone langauge.
Saraiki language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language

Saraiki drama clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYQAHeZg6RU

Saraiki people are Multani people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_people
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Gagan »

Sounds like a mix of Punjabi and Rajasthani somewhat like haryanvi.
That youtube clip is from an era where Islamization had not caught up yet. The bangles and chunni are very prominent.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Jarita »

Maternal side was Seraiki/Multani. This was not a sharp identity till recently. Most of them called themselves Multani. Post partition, theyve been absorbed into the Punjabi, Kashmiri (more Jammu) identity. Language is different. However, even among the Hindus/Sikhs there is this jibing between Punjabis/jammuites and Seraikis. I frankly find the latter more muted than the Punjabis (not as loud etc).
From what I have heard the Seraikis have a slightly different appearance.
However the gotras etc are common with other Hindu communities

Do you have anything specific you want to know? I'll ask my family
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by ramana »

Jarita, What do you know of Shikarpur traders?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Jarita »

ramana wrote:Jarita, What do you know of Shikarpur traders?

Nothing. I'll ask my family. If you give me a specific list of questions, I can ask them. They are from Multan. They should know
Even the diet is slightly different. A lot more morrels in the diet.
Given what I know about Pakjabis I don't blame them for trying to dissociate themselves and preserve their culture.
Think mountains, snow, desert. Spartan, hardy culture. Much more reserved than Punjus as well.
Main towns family is from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mianwali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multan
Last edited by Jarita on 19 Nov 2009 21:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by surinder »

VikasRaina wrote:Do we have any BRF-ite who is Seraiki speaking or belonging to Seraiki belt ? How different is this language from Punjabi ? Is it hybrid of Hindi/punjabi + ?? or completely standalone langauge.
Depends on who you ask. Seraiki is fairly different from Punjabi, but Punjabi speakers could understand and converse in it with some ease. Seraiki speakers could also speak main-stream Punjabi fairly easily. People usually call this language Multani, or Jhangi. So some might list it as a dialect of Punjabi, some might call it a separate language by itself. I think it more of a language that is in between Sindhi & Punjabi---since this is the region that falls in between Punjab & Sindh. Culturally, most Punjabis consider them to be fellow-Punjabis, although referring to them as Multani or Jhangi. They seem quite Punjabi to me in attitudes & personalities. Their language can cause a Punjabi-speaker to roll on the floor laughing, hopefully they are not offended by this.

In India you will find many many Multanis (Seraikis), both Hindu & Sikh. The RoP ejected them out of Multan. A very typical surname is "Jhamb"; sometimes they have Sindhi-sounding names also, and sometimes the names are standard Punjabi last names. My family has many close friends who were Multanis. They spoke Punjabi with us, but amongst themselves (and especially with their elders) they speak Multani. When I was recently in Delhi I visited an old freind of My Dad and requested him to speak in Multani. He was surpised that I called his language "Seraiki", I picked the term up from TSP newspapers. Unfortunately, without the connection to the land (being cleansed out of their natural habitat of Multan) they are not able to maintain their language. I find that is sad. It is a deep loss.

I understand that Seraiki is one of the oldest languages. It was close to the language of Indus Valley Civilization, or a derivative of it. One interesting tidbit: If you see the film Veer Zara, in the opening scene there is a maid who is opening the curtains and making the heroine wake up. She says, "Uthoo Zara Bibi, subeh hosi, ...". That is Seraiki.

Apparently Punjabi, which is now a traumatized language, has many dialects and a rather big foot print. Going NW, towards the Pashtun areas is a language called Hindko. It is a dialect of Punjabi, with Pushto mixture. Many Pathans call it their native toungue. It is spoken in Peshawar & Dera Ismail Khan & other parts of NWFP. (I understand that Shah Rukh Khan, or his parents, is a native Hindko speaker). Then near Rawalpindi is the language called Potohari. Dogri might be classified as a dialect of Punjabi. (I hope I have not offended anyone). Within Punjab itself, language changes rather abruptly from one doab to another. Their is a fair amount of jokes & put-downs in Punjab based on accent & use of words. There are mohallas in Delhi where they speak either Rawalpindi Punjabi, or Lahore Punjabi, based on which refugees settled there.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by mayo »

Both my parents are Multani. There are many Multani people in India settled in Haryana (Sirsa, Hisar, Fatehabad, Gurgaon, Gohana, Sonipat etc) area. Multani people understand Punjabi and vice-versa.

If you have any specific questions, please PM me. I will be happy to help.
VikasRaina wrote:
Do we have any BRF-ite who is Seraiki speaking or belonging to Seraiki belt ? How different is this language from Punjabi ? Is it hybrid of Hindi/punjabi + ?? or completely standalone langauge.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Jarita »

[quote="mayo"]Both my parents are Multani. There are many Multani people in India settled in Haryana (Sirsa, Hisar, Fatehabad, Gurgaon, Gohana, Sonipat etc) area. Multani people understand Punjabi and vice-versa.


[quote="VikasRaina"]

That makes you a multani :wink:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by CalvinH »

Lot of Multanis in Delhi too. One of my best friend is one. I never had a problem in recognizing between Multani and Punjabi (especially from Indian Punjab). Conservative and business oriented. I have heard them talk in Multani and its different then Punjabi though the way its spoken (flow) is same.

One of my friend is from Jhang too. I remember meeting old people from this place in Paki Punjab who still miss their land and culture. I agree that it would be hard to sustain their culture/language without their land.

Surinder ji, thanks for you long post on this.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Vikas »

surinder wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Do we have any BRF-ite who is Seraiki speaking or belonging to Seraiki belt ? How different is this language from Punjabi ? Is it hybrid of Hindi/punjabi + ?? or completely standalone langauge.
Depends on who you ask. Seraiki is fairly different from Punjabi, but Punjabi speakers could understand and converse in it with some ease. Seraiki speakers could also speak main-stream Punjabi fairly easily. People usually call this language Multani, or Jhangi. So some might list it as a dialect of Punjabi, some might call it a separate language by itself. I think it more of a language that is in between Sindhi & Punjabi---since this is the region that falls in between Punjab & Sindh. Culturally, most Punjabis consider them to be fellow-Punjabis, although referring to them as Multani or Jhangi. They seem quite Punjabi to me in attitudes & personalities. Their language can cause a Punjabi-speaker to roll on the floor laughing, hopefully they are not offended by this.

In India you will find many many Multanis (Seraikis), both Hindu & Sikh. The RoP ejected them out of Multan. A very typical surname is "Jhamb"; sometimes they have Sindhi-sounding names also, and sometimes the names are standard Punjabi last names. My family has many close friends who were Multanis. They spoke Punjabi with us, but amongst themselves (and especially with their elders) they speak Multani. When I was recently in Delhi I visited an old freind of My Dad and requested him to speak in Multani. He was surpised that I called his language "Seraiki", I picked the term up from TSP newspapers. Unfortunately, without the connection to the land (being cleansed out of their natural habitat of Multan) they are not able to maintain their language. I find that is sad. It is a deep loss.

I understand that Seraiki is one of the oldest languages. It was close to the language of Indus Valley Civilization, or a derivative of it. One interesting tidbit: If you see the film Veer Zara, in the opening scene there is a maid who is opening the curtains and making the heroine wake up. She says, "Uthoo Zara Bibi, subeh hosi, ...". That is Seraiki.

Apparently Punjabi, which is now a traumatized language, has many dialects and a rather big foot print. Going NW, towards the Pashtun areas is a language called Hindko. It is a dialect of Punjabi, with Pushto mixture. Many Pathans call it their native toungue. It is spoken in Peshawar & Dera Ismail Khan & other parts of NWFP. (I understand that Shah Rukh Khan, or his parents, is a native Hindko speaker). Then near Rawalpindi is the language called Potohari. Dogri might be classified as a dialect of Punjabi. (I hope I have not offended anyone). Within Punjab itself, language changes rather abruptly from one doab to another. Their is a fair amount of jokes & put-downs in Punjab based on accent & use of words. There are mohallas in Delhi where they speak either Rawalpindi Punjabi, or Lahore Punjabi, based on which refugees settled there.
BRF never ceases to amaze me with the wealth of Knowledge you folks have.
Thank-you Jarita, Mayo and Surinder. In my home, folks of older generation speak language which sounds very close to what was shown in Veer-zara movie though it is dialact of Dogri. Most of the words end with -aaso e.g. Khaaaso, jaaso etc. Even mirpuri sounds similar.
I was wondering if in someway this was reflection of Multani/Seraiki on the local dialect.
PS: Punjabi after all is not a just Punjabi.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Jaspreet »

She says, "Uthoo Zara Bibi, subeh hosi, ...". That is Seraiki.
If this construct is Seraiki, then it is quite close to Pishori (Peshawari) Punjabi that's spoken in our home and of many other Pishoris I know.
Examples:
*Key pyaa karn-eh?
What're you doing?

*Vat key hossi?
Then what will happen?

*keh des.
Tell him (or her).

*Karsiyen taan hossi!
When we do it then it will happen.

etc.

I know several other words but don't know their meaning.
Lavannah - my grandmother using this for the mischievous me.
Nesti - when I was lazy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by AnantD »

Jaspreet:

Just a guess on the words your Grandma used:

Lavannah - my grandmother using this for the mischievous me. Could be "lafangaa" in a cute sort of endearing way.
Nesti - when I was lazy. Could be broken down from "na asti", i.e. not being, therefore not doing, hence "lazy".

Not meant to offend if I'm wrong.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by surinder »

Jaspreet wrote:If this construct is Seraiki, then it is quite close to Pishori (Peshawari) Punjabi that's spoken in our home and of many other Pishoris I know.
Examples:
*Key pyaa karn-eh?
What're you doing?
....
Nesti - when I was lazy.
I think what your grandmother spoke was Hindko, a Punjabi variant. It is quite similar to Multani, simply because they are all from the same family.

My Grandmother you used to call me "Posti" when I was lazy, which sounds awfully similar to your nesti.

Such linguistic variations are common in languages. If Punjab had not been divided, and sub-divided, it would have been the largest province of India, with a Huge population, bordering A'stan, Baluchistan, Sindh, Tibet and touching Delhi. UP & Bihar would not have been the central core, or at least not the dominating core. If Punjab had been intact, the nature & course of India would have been different. But Punjab's divisions are a direct result of a certain Religion; had we not seen such large sections converted/killed, a different Punjab would have resulted in a different India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by surinder »

VikasRaina wrote:In my home, folks of older generation speak language which sounds very close to what was shown in Veer-zara movie though it is dialact of Dogri. Most of the words end with -aaso e.g. Khaaaso, jaaso etc. Even mirpuri sounds similar.
I was wondering if in someway this was reflection of Multani/Seraiki on the local dialect.
PS: Punjabi after all is not a just Punjabi.
I would have thought that you spoke Kashmiri? Kashmiri definitely is *NOT* a dialect of Punjabi. At the risk of offending some people, Dogri & Mirpuri are also dialects of Punjabi. So maybe what you spoke is a variant of Dogri or Mirpuri, and the words ending with "aasso" "ossi".

(All the "Kashmiris" of TSP speak Punjabi, the Mirpuris especially. That is why the bus service has so few passengers, there are very few ties across the border between Kashmir valley & PoK. Muzzaffarrabad, PoK, used to have a fairly large Hindu/Sikh population that was either kiled or evicted or converted during the partition of 47.)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Muppalla »

Q: Multani is a last name Labanas in Sikh community. I am just assuming as I have few family friends with that last name.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by ramana »

Surinder, I have a different view abot "posti" = lazy. Most hafimchis are lazy due to induced torpor. And another name for hafim is posto.
So may be that is the connotation?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by surinder »

ramana wrote:Surinder, I have a different view abot "posti" = lazy. Most hafimchis are lazy due to induced torpor. And another name for hafim is posto.
So may be that is the connotation?
Aaaaaaaah, that explains it. That extreme topor is the sense in which this word is used. (if you are bubbly & active, but not inclined to work, then the word is "kaam-chor", or "work-theif".)

In which language is Afim called Posto?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by SRoy »

Posto comes from poppy seeds, this is the word used in Bengali.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by ramana »

SRoy wrote:Posto comes from poppy seeds, this is the word used in Bengali.
That or a variant is also used in Lucknow area.

Eg. About Humayun "Woh posti tha!"
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by surinder »

In current Punjab, the Smack addicts are called "Smacki". In a few generations, that will become a legit word too describe grandkids.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Prem »

Lafanga, Dosti, Bhaira Posti, Nesti, Takk, Vutt ( Many Jhangis in Doaba) all too familiar and almost make you feel home. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9qiyveE ... re=related
Last edited by Prem on 20 Nov 2009 23:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by jamwal »

[quote="VikasRaina]
Thank-you Jarita, Mayo and Surinder. In my home, folks of older generation speak language which sounds very close to what was shown in Veer-zara movie though it is dialact of Dogri. Most of the words end with -aaso e.g. Khaaaso, jaaso etc. Even mirpuri sounds similar.
I was wondering if in someway this was reflection of Multani/Seraiki on the local dialect.
[/quote]


Are you refering to dialect that poeple of Uri use ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Prem »

Here is the difference in dialect
Iha Miti Hukum Karay
Punjabii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK6VzhEl ... re=related
Saraiki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ZrlkIF ... re=related
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Vikas »

jamwal wrote:[quote="VikasRaina]
Thank-you Jarita, Mayo and Surinder. In my home, folks of older generation speak language which sounds very close to what was shown in Veer-zara movie though it is dialact of Dogri. Most of the words end with -aaso e.g. Khaaaso, jaaso etc. Even mirpuri sounds similar.
I was wondering if in someway this was reflection of Multani/Seraiki on the local dialect.

Are you refering to dialect that poeple of Uri use ?[/quote][/quote]
I am referring to the dialect that people of Rajouri / Poonch side use..Not aware what folks in Uri use.

Thanx
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by SBajwa »

Check out this punjabi comedy clip from a napakistani comedy. The tall guy is "Iftekhar Thakur" and he is a Jhangi/MultaniSeraiki speaker. TOO FUNNY... BTW.. watch it alone (not for kids or women). Starting at 2:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJrzR59 ... re=related

Check other of their Lahori Comedians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxpbDFh_ ... re=related

Actually these people are from the caste of Mirasi and live around Hira Mandi, Lahore. Their main income is the world's oldest profession, singing and raunchy (loud) comedy like above.

Alll punjabi speakers should be able to undestand these clips.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by munna »

More on Seraiki and Southern Punjab ethnicity. From my recent conversations with "buzurgs" in the town about Seraikis/ Jhangis (pronounced with an emphasis on "ch" in mainstream Punjabi and with an emphasis on "Jh" in Seraiki).

1) Seraikis or Jhangis (also known as Bahawalpurias) although Hindus/Sikhs were often considered as the link between Hindu/Sikh and Muslims since they had a lot of similar customs eg like intermarriage of cousins etc. Similarly the Muslims were often not the purest TFTA around so lots of amorphous identities in the region.
2) The language was and is considered as a dialect of mainstream Punjabi and is in turn made up of Bahawalpuri dialects.
3) The dialect is intelligible but subject of mirth in mainstream Punjab on both sides of border for no apparent/specific reasons.
4) In Indian Punjab Bahawalpuris have strong concentration in Rajpura near Patiala/Sirhind, Jalandhar and Amritsar.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Vikas »

surinder wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:In my home, folks of older generation speak language which sounds very close to what was shown in Veer-zara movie though it is dialact of Dogri. Most of the words end with -aaso e.g. Khaaaso, jaaso etc. Even mirpuri sounds similar.
I was wondering if in someway this was reflection of Multani/Seraiki on the local dialect.
PS: Punjabi after all is not a just Punjabi.
I would have thought that you spoke Kashmiri? Kashmiri definitely is *NOT* a dialect of Punjabi. At the risk of offending some people, Dogri & Mirpuri are also dialects of Punjabi. So maybe what you spoke is a variant of Dogri or Mirpuri, and the words ending with "aasso" "ossi".

(All the "Kashmiris" of TSP speak Punjabi, the Mirpuris especially. That is why the bus service has so few passengers, there are very few ties across the border between Kashmir valley & PoK. Muzzaffarrabad, PoK, used to have a fairly large Hindu/Sikh population that was either kiled or evicted or converted during the partition of 47.)
OT, Part of the family speaks Kashmiri while those who came from Jammu side speak dialect of Dogri. Funny transalations have happend when they have tried to meet in the middle by translating their thoughts in Hindi for communication.
I thought all the areas that were ruled by Maharaja Ranjit singh somehow spoke Punjabi or dialects of Punjabi other than people in Indian side of Kashmir where Kashmiri was/is prevalent.

Somehow 1947 did not only destroyed people, but also slowly injected the poison which is killing what is part of our cultural inheritance.
In few years we probably won't have anyone speaking Seraiki or Multani once the current generation fades away and what have we done
about it..Zilch, Nishta, cypher (and I am part of the problem because I myself have done nothing to save it).Even the memories like that Kashmir was a great center of Shaivite learning and from Swami Shankracharya to Swami Vivekananda traveled to Kashmir to quinch their spiritual thirst or the unfortunate city of Purushpur was capital of one of the great Indian Empire are almost foggy now.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by surinder »

Vikas R,

You are right, once the current generation fades out, who will speak Seraiki? That language will be lost forever. It is sad. I encourage any Saraikis I meet to keep up the language, but I realize it is a blow. People will have no option but to travel to Multan, TSP, to hear that language in few decades.

In our weak moments we think that land is nothing, having ideals is everything. But land and the connection to it is vital for civilization. Loss of very vital areas to TSP & PRC is big bloody blow to us. Language casualty is one of them.

Israel would not be Israel if it was not rooted in the land of the Levant. USSR had made a Jewish-only region to be made into an "Israel", but it never really was a viable option.

We should also swear, NEVER will be allow our land to be given up.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by SBajwa »

Also check this out. Is This is Seraiki or Pothohari can't telll? TV drama by the same guy Iftekhar Thakur

Is this pothohari or Seraiki song about Heer Ranjha?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R68A5xff ... re=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvlim9R ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHi4fQYI ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Qx709_ ... re=related
Last edited by SBajwa on 21 Nov 2009 02:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by ramana »

Punjab partition was grevious blow for it separated historical places forever. Those who agreed did not have an idea of hisotry and culture. They made permanent what could be a temproary loss.

All the early losses were from a era when India wasn't together and was fragmented. There was a chance in modern times to reclaim the lost areas eventually. By agreeing to a Westphalian construct (two states) they gave away the advantages that the masses had restored to the Indian polity. For first time in Indian history the masses were with the elite thanks to the freedom struggle. Those massacres have poisoned the well for a long time making it difficlut to reverse the Partition and maybe that was the goal.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by surinder »

ramana wrote:Those massacres have poisoned the well for a long time making it difficlut to reverse the Partition and maybe that was the goal.

Funny that you mention that. The more I dig into partition saga, a very curious fact emerges: The British realized that for the idea of Pakistan to be firmly grounded, expulsion of Hindus/Sikhs population from Pakistan was a must. Otherwise there was a risk that a 25% Hindu/Sikh in Pakistan---and a bigger percentage in Paki Punjab---would either cause Partition could be undone, or would make Pakistan weak & fragile.

So what they did was they deliberately looked the other way when Partition violence errupted, not making the slightest effort into stopping it---as a matter of fact they put their entire effort, along with military manpower, into transferring the Hindus/Sikhs to India, but not ensuring that they stay in Pakistan. This was a silent, but a deliberate British policy. They had to do this to ensure that Pakistan survives & flourishes & becomes a defacto reality. A huge Hindu/Sikh population in Paki Punjab (especially close to Indian border) would have meant an effective death knell of Pakistan. This I think was understood by them quite clearly.

The sad thing while many Indians instinctively know this, or may be even consciously know this, we have not made this one of the "accepted" fact of our public consciousness. We Hindus/Sikhs on side, and Musliams on the other curse each other for the Partition riots, we forget the real instigator behind this sordid drama.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by Prem »

British just took advantage of pre existing tension. Equal to British are Mohajirs in guilt, they are the one who Insitutionalizd the hatred thus cementing the edifice built by British . But it is wrong to think that loss is permanent, nature has its own way of correcting unnatural mistakes. May be the last links are there to bring humanity back to these creatures fallen to animal nature.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Post by Airavat »

surinder wrote:At the risk of offending some people, Dogri & Mirpuri are also dialects of Punjabi.
You would be offending the Indian Constitution, which recognizes Dogri as one of the 22 official languages :) . Historically the Dogri language had its own script called Takari.
VikasRaina wrote:I am referring to the dialect that people of Rajouri / Poonch side use..Not aware what folks in Uri use.
That would be "Pahari" which is very similar to Dogri, but is a sister-language and not a dialect of Dogri. They are all, including Mirpuri, and the many languages in Himachal Pradesh grouped together as Western Pahari. All these languages derive from the common stream of Sanskrit-Prakrit-Apabhramsa and one is not a dialect of the other.
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Re: Understanding Punjab and History

Post by ramana »

I read somewhere that it was Portuguese piracy in Arabian Sea that forced the adoption of land routes to Central Asia and that led to the growth and stabilization of Punjab and beyond during the latter Muslim period. Any more details?

Also I find numerous trading communities in Punjab which is very interesting.

A JSTOR link:

Brief note on Business Organization of Indian merchants in Tsarist Russia

Note last line of the paper!

A map of that period:

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/map13-ti.htm
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