Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Well I talk to Amrikis everyday. I do it for living. And the people I interact with are entrepreneurs not abduls. We cater hendreds of them. Based on my exp I can safely say that they are by no means superhumans. All the lacking we talk about such as common sense, logic, analytical skills, general awareness is as low or high as you would find among Indians in any big city. And frankly, that's how it would be everywhere in the world. People are people. They are good in some and bad in some. An artist would know nothing about politics, technology, defense etc. and probably would think from heart more than the mind (is there any wonder that we see a good portion of human right activists in India comprise of artists?). A farmer would know nothing about PSLV. What a scientist would know about Indian folk dance? But what is important is that all of them know their own stuff. Go to a dehati farmer and talk about Kheti-Badi. You will wonder how much knowledge he has about it. The society needs all of them. One common mistake we make in judging people is that we judge them based on our own perception and knowledge. That's not how you do it. You have to judge them in what they are doing. The rural people of India are behind in general awareness but there is no reason to think that they are not doing their bit in the economy.
And then of course, there are some people who in general terms are really smart, who have good overall logical and analytical skills and rest are below par. The earlier are lesser than the latter in every society.
Given the current state of India as compared to US/Europe I am more hopeful than the other members here. The Indian parents of today are educated. They have less children. The market is becoming more and more competitive in every aspect. There is rapid urbanization happening here. India is a young country and will remain the same for few decades. For the most part of the history we have been the Gangotri of Gyan and days are not far that we snatch the tagname of "Vishwa Guru" back for us. One can call this wishful thinking but I really do believe it.
And then of course, there are some people who in general terms are really smart, who have good overall logical and analytical skills and rest are below par. The earlier are lesser than the latter in every society.
Given the current state of India as compared to US/Europe I am more hopeful than the other members here. The Indian parents of today are educated. They have less children. The market is becoming more and more competitive in every aspect. There is rapid urbanization happening here. India is a young country and will remain the same for few decades. For the most part of the history we have been the Gangotri of Gyan and days are not far that we snatch the tagname of "Vishwa Guru" back for us. One can call this wishful thinking but I really do believe it.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
To add to the above point, The diamond polishing industry is well known across the globe. Almost 80% of diamonds of entire world get polished in India and Surat is the biggest center for it. But if you visit any polishing unit in Surat or for that matter anywhere in India you will be shocked by the level of literacy and intellectual ability of the workers. Let alone the general awareness, the polishers don't even know how much the diamond that they are polishing would cost (just roughly) in the market. Many of them don't know how to get a reserved compartment in the train to their hometown. But then, They are the best in the world in what they are doing. We all know what they contribute to the economy.
The above scenario is nothing to be proud of though. They resemble to chinese workers who don't know their rights. What I am trying to point out is that just because the people you meet are not knowledgeable and smart, that doesn't mean they are not contributing to the economy. They all do. And actually you need some part of them like that to sustain.
And to the brighter side, though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society. Barring roadside beggars types, no one want their children to do the shit job. I cannot speak the same for some of the laggard states like UP, Jharkhand etc. but in general the situation is quite encouraging in India.
The above scenario is nothing to be proud of though. They resemble to chinese workers who don't know their rights. What I am trying to point out is that just because the people you meet are not knowledgeable and smart, that doesn't mean they are not contributing to the economy. They all do. And actually you need some part of them like that to sustain.
And to the brighter side, though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society. Barring roadside beggars types, no one want their children to do the shit job. I cannot speak the same for some of the laggard states like UP, Jharkhand etc. but in general the situation is quite encouraging in India.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Theo_Fidel wrote:We both want to see a wealthy prosperous India, unlike some here.
Yes, That we do.
As mentioned in my earlier post, there are a couple of distinct models to economic success. One is more dependent on quality of employee-base, while the other depends largely on quantity and quality of employer / entrepreneur-base.There has never been two routes to prosperity however. There has always only been one.
To make things easy to comprehend, let me call the first the 'Tamil Nadu' model and the second the 'Gujarat' model. Does it get clearer now?
Now, the distinction is not water-tight....Gujarat's entrepreneurs would not have flourished if their employees hadn't cooperated; and TN has produced many stalwart entrepreneurs. But the primary drivers of each states prosperity is very evident - Employees for TN and Entrepreneurs for Gujarat.
Agree with 1,3 & 4. But 2 is too loosey-goosey to serve any useful purpose. What exactly is 'progressive' supposed to mean? A more precise definition of 'progressive' in the context of economic growth is: A society that does not place any restriction on anyone achieving their maximum economic capability (either as employee or entrepreneur).Like I said there are no shortcuts.
1. Education
2. Progressive society. Women women women
3. Strong law based institutions
4. Hardwork
The correct question is does one maximize a person's economic potential by giving him fish or by teaching him to fish. By continuing to give only 'fish' to the 'backward' castes, they seem to have lost the incentive to 'learn how to fish'.Anti-reservation groups forget that reservations purpose was to change the status of communities, mostly because the status quo was intolerable. Progress has been made but not enough. It is not meant to be a 'feature' of society at all. It is like poisoning the well to kill the poisonous critters. We have killed some of the critters but unfortunately not all.
Where have I ever said certain castes are good at certain things ? - As a matter of fact, I remember strongly condemning that attitude.I continue to challenge your premise that certain castes are good at certain things. The claim is yours so can you back it up with data? IMO this is completely false. There is no such inherent advantage within castes. The division exists due to social enforcement not better performance. If we are to progress this manner of thinking has to come to an end.
There is NO genetic / inherited caste advantage or caste disadvantage. However castes differ on the degree of 'social capital' and values (all learnable non-inherited attributes) that go towards maximization of either education or entrepreneurship-potential.
You and I may give far more importance to our free wills and free thinking than to our respective religions - but unfortunately, I think the evidence does not seem to back up the claim that the whole world thinks like we do. For very many, it does seem like religion takes precedence over free will in many aspects of their life. That in itself need not be a major concern - but from an economic perspective there is concern if a religion can create impediments to the build up of 'social capital' and values as required for the promotion of either education / knowledge-seeking or entrepreneurship.WRT religion I expected better logic from you. It is we who decide what religion is, not the other way around. If we are stupid our religion will be stupid and sound stupid, if we are smart and educated our religion will be smart. It has ever been this way. This why there is such a difference between having a degree and being 'educated'. And why religion has no effect one way or the other on economic potential. Those who have a questionable attachment to reality and logic are doomed to poison their societies with religion
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
India tops life insurance rankings: WEF
India may rank low in terms of overall financial development globally, but it is the world's top-ranked country in terms of life insurance density, the World Economic Forum (WEF) has said in its latest report.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Chidambaram: FY13 GDP growth could hit decade-low
India's economic growth could slow to as little as 5.5 percent this fiscal year, Finance Minister P. Chidambaram told Reuters, signalling the possibility that Asia's third largest economy will expand at its slowest pace in a decade.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Very nicely insightful and down to earth posts Kapilrdave. Thank you.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Facing up to fiscal karma
This is where the references to 1991 might be coming from. Difference this time is that most of this borrowing would be local, so it can be handled by printing more rupees.
This is where the references to 1991 might be coming from. Difference this time is that most of this borrowing would be local, so it can be handled by printing more rupees.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Sorry for the late reply -- have been away from this thread for a few days.RamaY wrote:This post is about economy. Because....Abhijeet wrote:Good post. Education -- of many different kinds, but it starts with formal schooling -- is the key factor in development. <blah>
It tell us somehow the people you came across are underdeveloped? Is it because they didn't understand the lane-system or stopping at the unviewable stop signs or what?
My post specifically talked about underdevelopment of the average Indian. Low human development is empirically (not to mention common-sensically) deeply linked to economic development: it's obvious that underdeveloped people will not result in a productive economy. I thought this connection was obvious, but perhaps not.
A few people countered my admitted anecdotal post with anecdotes of their own about redneck Americans, people in West India, "all the Americans I know are ignorant about the world" etc. All this is well and good. However, please understand that the macro level facts are against those who are trying to do an equal-equal between India and the US (or any other developed country) when it comes to human development.
- India's HDI rank is 127.
- Some 50% of the children in India are malnourished. A similar percentage of women of child-bearing age are.
- Some low percentage have access to a toilet.
- The average person gets 5 years of schooling or so (taking Theo's number). We all know what the quality of government education in rural, or even urban, India is like.
- And on and on. I could pick a dozen more facts in a similar vein.
Now, these numbers could all be the result of the great Western conspiracy to keep us down (and there will be people on this forum who will pooh-pooh any facts and figures like this). However, taken together these numbers should tell you -- if you're the sort to be swayed by empirical evidence -- that such depths of deprivation have no chance to result in anything other than a vast percentage of intellectually stunted adults. It's simply not possible -- the dice are loaded against the average Indian from birth! Unless you believe that our glorious 5000 year old civilization imbues all Indians with a superhuman intelligence gene that can withstand all these disadvantages.
So when I say things like "most people in India have limited mental faculties", I am admittedly being harsh and judgmental, but also accurate. This is due to nothing intrinsic about those people, nor because of the fact that the people in the West have superhuman capabilities, but simply because of the circumstances in which the majority of people in India grow up. When that changes, the average intelligence level will change as well.
Unfortunately, based on my observations, things at this basic level are changing slowly enough that I will be very old by the time the vast majority of Indian adults would be classified as of average intelligence by developed country standards. Probably not what people want to hear, and I hope I'm wrong, but that's my reading.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1635
- Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Whoa, very fascinating tale, perhaps true, who knows.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 85,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 85,00.html
Even the recent report in the most advanced nation on earth shows that men out-earn women by approximately 25% more for the same job. Underdeveloped people (women) will not result in productive economic gains. At the least women are equal to 3/4ths value of a man. (no this is no saudi arapia djinn calculations). Low economic development is empirically (not to mention common sensically) deeply linked to human development. I thought this connection was obvious but perhaps not. So an average TFTA wimmen is underdeveloped compared to TFTA man by developed country standards. I'm not even talking about 'bell curve" issues, but this fact should reflect on a poor and underdevelopment of an average TFTA wimmen.That's because U.S. women still earned only 77 cents on the male dollar in 2008, according to the latest census statistics. (That number drops to 68% for African-American women and 58% for Latinas.)
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Abhijeet,Abhijeet wrote:So when I say things like "most people in India have limited mental faculties", I am admittedly being harsh and judgmental, but also accurate.
I am glad you brought this topic up. There is a whole field of research around 'intelligence studies' that looks at various causes of low or high IQ - including genetic, social and religious factors.
Admittedly - this whole topic is politically quite a minefield, but in the true spirit of science don't think BR should shy away from it.
Here's another angle to the IQ discussion: Intelligence Study Links Low I.Q. To Prejudice, Racism, Conservatism. We need a separate thread to discuss various HDI, social, genetic & religious factors that go into this mix. Frankly, one or two odd posts would do injustice to the complexity of this field.
Can I request you to start a thread and cross-post the above post of yours there?
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
A Harvard guy has this to advice India.
What’s Troubling India?
What’s Troubling India?
Some argue that central-government paralysis is inevitable in a democracy of 1.2 billion people, and that the only way to re-energize India is to establish a looser confederation of its constituent states. Devolution would unshackle the economically more successful states. And, by combating the culture of aid dependency in economically weaker states, India’s poorer regions might benefit in the long run as well.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 676
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
^^^^ The dude is soon going to suggest an EU type federation for Indian states with each having a foreign ministry.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Not necessarily a bad idea....Worth seeing if upcoming regional and national elections sort out the political mess in the country. If not - the confederation idea might not be that bad.shyam wrote:A Harvard guy has this to advice India.
What’s Troubling India?Some argue that central-government paralysis is inevitable in a democracy of 1.2 billion people, and that the only way to re-energize India is to establish a looser confederation of its constituent states. Devolution would unshackle the economically more successful states. And, by combating the culture of aid dependency in economically weaker states, India’s poorer regions might benefit in the long run as well.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
How about eugenics? It includes genetic, social and religious factors. Coupled with the hindu rate of growth, we will have enough material to call Indians stupid.Arjun wrote:I am glad you brought this topic up. There is a whole field of research around 'intelligence studies' that looks at various causes of low or high IQ - including genetic, social and religious factors.
Admittedly, eugenics could be also science worth looking at, and BR should not shy away from it.Admittedly - this whole topic is politically quite a minefield, but in the true spirit of science don't think BR should shy away from it.
Arjunji, why do not you start the honors? I would love to here how a cowherd from BiMaRU state is prejudiced and racist and has low IQ. Of course we can discuss HDI, Social, Genetic and Religious factors in it. I am particularly interested in the genetic factors while Theo can talk about religious factors.Here's another angle to the IQ discussion: Intelligence Study Links Low I.Q. To Prejudice, Racism, Conservatism. We need a separate thread to discuss various HDI, social, genetic & religious factors that go into this mix. Frankly, one or two odd posts would do injustice to the complexity of this field. Can I request you to start a thread and cross-post the above post of yours there?
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Particularly coming from a 'pir reviewed' article from Harvard! It is hence the right idea.Arjun wrote:What’s Troubling India?
Not necessarily a bad idea....Worth seeing if upcoming regional and national elections sort out the political mess in the country. If not - the confederation idea might not be that bad.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Am not quite a 'left liberal' in my political views, Disha ji. Not sure what exactly is getting your goat in the above two posts...
I do think relevant issues need an appropriate platform for analytical discussion. The AIT / OIT thread is a perfect model for this.
I do think relevant issues need an appropriate platform for analytical discussion. The AIT / OIT thread is a perfect model for this.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Diet and nutrition should also be considered.There is a whole field of research around 'intelligence studies' that looks at various causes of low or high IQ - including genetic, social and religious factors.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Rogoff's suggestion is funny. What he proposes is what exists now - states that have inter-state commercial and trade tariff barriers between them. The rest of the article is nothing more than filler noise.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 17249
- Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
- Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
ArjunjiArjun wrote: Not necessarily a bad idea....Worth seeing if upcoming regional and national elections sort out the political mess in the country. If not - the confederation idea might not be that bad.
Do you mind explaining us commoners what the problem is and how the proposed solution attempts to remove the problem root causes and how the proposed solution lays out the road map of economic progress?
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Well, Mythili B at the Economic Times articulates pretty much whatever I had wanted to say on this: The secret of success lies in hanging loose!RamaY wrote:Arjunji
Do you mind explaining us commoners what the problem is and how the proposed solution attempts to remove the problem root causes and how the proposed solution lays out the road map of economic progress?
Either we have effective administrators like Modi at the center - or we unshackle the states from the center and allow them much greater latitude to take their own economic decisions.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
These days so called political experts look only at one thing "economy", and suggest all kinds of alchemy to achieve that. What people forget is that western world followed that faithfully, and they now run around like headless chicken.
What people should demand is "better governance", and once we have that economic prosperity will automatically follow. Modi, who doesn't have any economic background, has proved it. If people single handedly chase GDP numbers, they may get that for some time, but after that chaos will follow. Sometimes GDP numbers hide the rot under it.
What people should demand is "better governance", and once we have that economic prosperity will automatically follow. Modi, who doesn't have any economic background, has proved it. If people single handedly chase GDP numbers, they may get that for some time, but after that chaos will follow. Sometimes GDP numbers hide the rot under it.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
I am Johnny come lately to this. but that does not inhibit to expose my ignorancekapilrdave wrote:To add to the above point, The diamond polishing industry is well known across the globe. Almost 80% of diamonds of entire world get polished in India and Surat is the biggest center for it. But if you visit any polishing unit in Surat or for that matter anywhere in India you will be shocked by the level of literacy and intellectual ability of the workers. Let alone the general awareness, the polishers don't even know how much the diamond that they are polishing would cost (just roughly) in the market. Many of them don't know how to get a reserved compartment in the train to their hometown. But then, They are the best in the world in what they are doing. We all know what they contribute to the economy.
The above scenario is nothing to be proud of though. They resemble to chinese workers who don't know their rights. What I am trying to point out is that just because the people you meet are not knowledgeable and smart, that doesn't mean they are not contributing to the economy. They all do. And actually you need some part of them like that to sustain.
And to the brighter side, though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society. Barring roadside beggars types, no one want their children to do the shit job. I cannot speak the same for some of the laggard states like UP, Jharkhand etc. but in general the situation is quite encouraging in India.
For Diamond polishing
1) Surat largest in the world by virtue cheapest high quality labor and and also because of the ability of the workers a(economics) to polish very small carat (size) diamonds.
2) Tel Aviv Israel is the second largest talented diamond polishers but relatively higher labor costs (also not interested in polishing beyond a lower limit of carat)
3) Amsterdam third most cost effective polishing indusstry but largets trading center for diamonds
(export market for Indian and Israeli polished diamonds.)
2.
what is literacy? is it reading english ability or native language ability."for that matter anywhere in India you will be shocked by the level of literacy and intellectual ability of the workers."
if the person is able to speak, read and write or atleast the first two he is not iliterate.
Intellectual capacity? how is this measured, is it if he can recall the capital of PRC or capital of his state Gandhinagar?
Is he able to discriminate between lawful and unlawful, is he able to relate to current events in his state, district, local areas
is he able to apply his skill knowledge to job he is performing and make decisions if he is allowed is a measure of his intellectual ability.
For that matter POTUS and POTUS the second POTUS is People of the United States know where Gulf of Mexico is.
3.
Cost is different from worth."Let alone the general awareness, the polishers don't even know how much the diamond that they are polishing would cost (just roughly) in the market. Many of them don't know how to get a reserved compartment in the train to their hometown. But then, They are the best in the world in what they are doing. We all know what they contribute to the economy."
Cost is associated with cumulative value of resources spent + margin, worth is a fair market value that is traded in open market.
Not knowing it is not bad but knowing it would add to knowledge consequently wisdom, the security checks upon entry and exit of work place gives him an idea of the value of the material he is dealing with. Cost Value Utility are subject to many variables.
Not able to make a reservation means no awareness of the process, assuming language is no barriar, then it means there are no incentives to overcome the hurdle. If he can pay 10 rs and some one will do reservation he has factored into the cost of travel the additional burden. this
they are the best in what they do is known to us and as well as their contribution
the question is do they know that
it is the resposnibilty of citizenry and the rulers to make them feel proud of their contribution. This pride will result in better quality and confidence in them.
The big difference between Indians and Western countries.
"though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their
children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society.
If and when the pride (self respect , self esteem) in individuals is established, empowered they will never feel inferior because of the job they do.
there is nothing wrong in being the best diamond polisher (ask Neil Diamond), but their aspiration of wanting their progney to prosper is a very noble and deserving ambition.
In the western countries the children of a artisan , blue collar worker, carpenter, baker, welder builder want to preserve the skills out of pride as as artist.
unfortunately in INDIA this trait is encouraged only in politicians like Gandhis, Chidambarams Karuna nidhis Gulam SIngh yadavs etc or movie actors....
this is the reason west is technologicallyt advanced as their invention crucible spans from reasearch labs to garrages. our ways are only for privilaged few.
So let not artistic talents vanish
we already lost the skills of investment casting and mettalurgy when the British rampages us.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Pentaiah saab,
The other question is do they understand what they are doing?
They know if they cut the stone a certain way with certain angles it shines more. But do they understand why and can they do the refraction calculations necessary if it came down to it. There are entire libraries of books written on cutting diamonds, do they understand and contribute to this knowledge growth. Can they then apply that knowledge to measure the refraction variations of each facet and each stone to make it even better. Only in that direction lies a profession that they can pass down to their children and they can be proud off. Words of encouragement while useful mean less than artisanal pride of knowing what they are doing.
That is what the past 20 pages of discussion was about.
In west even replacing a car window is a high skilled and precision endeavor to 1/64" tolerance. I know cause the local yahoo showed me with his feeler gauge on my windshield last week. He was enormously proud of his ability to install with such precision. He knew the science and the latest technology to get to 1/128" precision next year.
Hopefully the folks in Surat are thinking along those lines as well.
The other question is do they understand what they are doing?
They know if they cut the stone a certain way with certain angles it shines more. But do they understand why and can they do the refraction calculations necessary if it came down to it. There are entire libraries of books written on cutting diamonds, do they understand and contribute to this knowledge growth. Can they then apply that knowledge to measure the refraction variations of each facet and each stone to make it even better. Only in that direction lies a profession that they can pass down to their children and they can be proud off. Words of encouragement while useful mean less than artisanal pride of knowing what they are doing.
That is what the past 20 pages of discussion was about.
In west even replacing a car window is a high skilled and precision endeavor to 1/64" tolerance. I know cause the local yahoo showed me with his feeler gauge on my windshield last week. He was enormously proud of his ability to install with such precision. He knew the science and the latest technology to get to 1/128" precision next year.
Hopefully the folks in Surat are thinking along those lines as well.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 9373
- Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
- Location: University of Trantor
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
I fully support more devolution of power to the states. Less the central interference, the better. In fact a second states reorog commission should help split the larger unwieldy states (UP, for example).
Then the better run states can shine and the weaker ones can be shown a mirror. 'Best practices' from better run to weaker states can flow simply because it is now good politics+economics to do so. Only.
Would be simply awesome if the MH distts bordering Guj were to get taken in by the NaMo governance model and vote for the 'right' people. Would show how demonstrated governance track record cuts through media blackouts and a mala fide centre.
Then the better run states can shine and the weaker ones can be shown a mirror. 'Best practices' from better run to weaker states can flow simply because it is now good politics+economics to do so. Only.
Would be simply awesome if the MH distts bordering Guj were to get taken in by the NaMo governance model and vote for the 'right' people. Would show how demonstrated governance track record cuts through media blackouts and a mala fide centre.
-
- BR Mainsite Crew
- Posts: 3110
- Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Hari Seldon garu,Hari Seldon wrote:I fully support more devolution of power to the states. Less the central interference, the better. In fact a second states reorog commission should help split the larger unwieldy states (UP, for example).
Then the better run states can shine and the weaker ones can be shown a mirror. 'Best practices' from better run to weaker states can flow simply because it is now good politics+economics to do so. Only.
Would be simply awesome if the MH distts bordering Guj were to get taken in by the NaMo governance model and vote for the 'right' people. Would show how demonstrated governance track record cuts through media blackouts and a mala fide centre.
It also exposes the smaller states to malicious central intervention because they do not individually have the capacity to influence Delhi. There is a sweet spot somewhere between UP and utterly dependent NE states.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 17249
- Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
- Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Reminds me of a joke about a Telugu Chief Minister, who was deeply impressed by the fact that all Americans can speak EnglishTheo_Fidel wrote:Pentaiah saab,
The other question is do they understand what they are doing?
They know if they cut the stone a certain way with certain angles it shines more. But do they understand why and can they do the refraction calculations necessary if it came down to it. There are entire libraries of books written on cutting diamonds, do they understand and contribute to this knowledge growth. Can they then apply that knowledge to measure the refraction variations of each facet and each stone to make it even better. Only in that direction lies a profession that they can pass down to their children and they can be proud off. Words of encouragement while useful mean less than artisanal pride of knowing what they are doing.
That is what the past 20 pages of discussion was about.
In west even replacing a car window is a high skilled and precision endeavor to 1/64" tolerance. I know cause the local yahoo showed me with his feeler gauge on my windshield last week. He was enormously proud of his ability to install with such precision. He knew the science and the latest technology to get to 1/128" precision next year.
Hopefully the folks in Surat are thinking along those lines as well.
The level of accuracy demonstrated by the car window repairman is expected from any country that achieved the level of machanization as USA.
The other day I was watching a westerner's journey of yoga from the yoga studios to bikram yoga to India to basic Indian common man's natural yogic postures and life as depicted in how a so-called illiterate untouchable's prostrating journey (the seeker moves from one prostration to another to complete his pradakshina around Brindavan) is the ultimate yogic experience
Your example is no great or phenomenal. A Britisher speaks English more fluent than a Desi BPO employee irrespective of all the slang training. An Arab is a better Muslim than a wanna be paki because he speaks Arap. An Italian is a better Christian than all the EJs of India's put together for he is a Pope
Uttishtha Bharata is all I can say
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
@ Theo
All I can say is Jigs and Fixtures.
Thanks
Rama y ji sirji
All I can say is Jigs and Fixtures.
Thanks
Rama y ji sirji
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Surat is the largest but there are many other places in Gujarat where diamond polishing is done.pentaiah wrote: 1) Surat largest in the world by virtue cheapest high quality labor and and also because of the ability of the workers a(economics) to polish very small carat (size) diamonds.
Large diamonds are easy. Indian polishers also polish the star sized (the smallest size which you see in densely packed diamond rings. So much so that they are hard to separate visually. Roughly hundredth of carat.) diamonds which requires great skill and experience.pentaiah wrote: 2) Tel Aviv Israel is the second largest talented diamond polishers but relatively higher labor costs (also not interested in polishing beyond a lower limit of carat)
Amsterdam is out and out trading center. Polishing industry is very small there. Chinese are trying to sneak in and are growing.pentaiah wrote: 3) Amsterdam third most cost effective polishing indusstry but largets trading center for diamonds
(export market for Indian and Israeli polished diamonds.)
Pardon my ignorance but I don't understand the point of your questions. There are many who are outright illiterate and overall education level is low. And they don't know where the gulf of Mexico is. But yes, they ARE able to apply their skill knowledge to their job and make decisions IF he is allowed. What are you trying to prove?pentaiah wrote: 2.what is literacy? is it reading english ability or native language ability."for that matter anywhere in India you will be shocked by the level of literacy and intellectual ability of the workers."
if the person is able to speak, read and write or atleast the first two he is not iliterate.
Intellectual capacity? how is this measured, is it if he can recall the capital of PRC or capital of his state Gandhinagar?
Is he able to discriminate between lawful and unlawful, is he able to relate to current events in his state, district, local areas
is he able to apply his skill knowledge to job he is performing and make decisions if he is allowed is a measure of his intellectual ability.
For that matter POTUS and POTUS the second POTUS is People of the United States know where Gulf of Mexico is.
But that is the problem of the system not theirs. India is a developing country so we donot have the "perfect" system yet. But I thought the original point was that because of low level or general awareness which you claim is superior in Americans, such people donot contribute to the economy. I countered that. After all Every Apple Inc. needs a Foxconn. Whether within country or in abroad. We are a developing country so we have it available here. As we grow and labor becomes costly we will outsource to other country. The problem is when we have (potentially) cheap labor available in India and yet we import cheap stuff from China because of poor establishment. But again that is the problem of system not of the poor workers. Of course they need to be more educated to build a better system but that is a separate thing from observation about workers' ability and inability that I stated.pentaiah wrote: 3.Cost is different from worth."Let alone the general awareness, the polishers don't even know how much the diamond that they are polishing would cost (just roughly) in the market. Many of them don't know how to get a reserved compartment in the train to their hometown. But then, They are the best in the world in what they are doing. We all know what they contribute to the economy."
Cost is associated with cumulative value of resources spent + margin, worth is a fair market value that is traded in open market.
Not knowing it is not bad but knowing it would add to knowledge consequently wisdom, the security checks upon entry and exit of work place gives him an idea of the value of the material he is dealing with. Cost Value Utility are subject to many variables.
Not able to make a reservation means no awareness of the process, assuming language is no barriar, then it means there are no incentives to overcome the hurdle. If he can pay 10 rs and some one will do reservation he has factored into the cost of travel the additional burden. this
they are the best in what they do is known to us and as well as their contribution
the question is do they know that
it is the resposnibilty of citizenry and the rulers to make them feel proud of their contribution. This pride will result in better quality and confidence in them.
The big difference between Indians and Western countries.
The point is that the diamond workers are contributing to the economy despite their low level of intellectual and general awareness. India is a developing country so there is no surprise in this. You are confusing the discussion between the political system, intellectuality and economy. While I agree that all are inter-related but here we are discussing them separately. Everyone knows the system needs to be better, I have myself stated that the diamond workers' general awareness is low. But to reject them just because they don't know where the gulf of Mexico is, is wrong.pentaiah wrote:"though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their
children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society.
If and when the pride (self respect , self esteem) in individuals is established, empowered they will never feel inferior because of the job they do.
there is nothing wrong in being the best diamond polisher (ask Neil Diamond), but their aspiration of wanting their progney to prosper is a very noble and deserving ambition.
In the western countries the children of a artisan , blue collar worker, carpenter, baker, welder builder want to preserve the skills out of pride as as artist.
unfortunately in INDIA this trait is encouraged only in politicians like Gandhis, Chidambarams Karuna nidhis Gulam SIngh yadavs etc or movie actors....
this is the reason west is technologicallyt advanced as their invention crucible spans from reasearch labs to garrages. our ways are only for privilaged few.
So let not artistic talents vanish
we already lost the skills of investment casting and mettalurgy when the British rampages us.
BTW they dont spend Rs.10 to get reservation. They go in unreserved coach.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Theo, first of all I want to congratulate you for the contribution you make to this forum. I am a fan of yours. But not at the momentTheo_Fidel wrote:Pentaiah saab,
The other question is do they understand what they are doing?
They know if they cut the stone a certain way with certain angles it shines more. But do they understand why and can they do the refraction calculations necessary if it came down to it. There are entire libraries of books written on cutting diamonds, do they understand and contribute to this knowledge growth. Can they then apply that knowledge to measure the refraction variations of each facet and each stone to make it even better. Only in that direction lies a profession that they can pass down to their children and they can be proud off. Words of encouragement while useful mean less than artisanal pride of knowing what they are doing.
That is what the past 20 pages of discussion was about.
In west even replacing a car window is a high skilled and precision endeavor to 1/64" tolerance. I know cause the local yahoo showed me with his feeler gauge on my windshield last week. He was enormously proud of his ability to install with such precision. He knew the science and the latest technology to get to 1/128" precision next year.
Hopefully the folks in Surat are thinking along those lines as well.
What do you think? Why they are the best in the business? That is because of years of exp and training of actual work. They don't need to read the book. It is quite normal for an experienced polisher to create perfect facet on each side. The refraction is mostly perfect. I bet an American who knows everything about the world would not be able to even put the diamond inside the polishing tool AFTER reading the book (actual polishing starts after that). Most likely he will lose the diamond and being it so small he will have to write it off. Believe me, even finding a fallen diamond requires good experience in doing that . There is a special brush that you have to use carefully to do that.
You cant start swimming after reading the book "Learn swimming in 24 hours"
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
They don't need books, they need tobacco to do the perfect work
But coming back to the original point I wanted to make, they have started to not to allow tobacco to their children. Signs of good future.
But coming back to the original point I wanted to make, they have started to not to allow tobacco to their children. Signs of good future.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Kapilrdave>>
Like average BRF member you seem to know lot more than I do.
You wrote everything I know, and you know that I know as well about smallest diamonds being polished which other nations in polishing business don't take up because of the labor costs.
Some of these smaller diamonds earlier wee being sent to industrial uses in cutting tools (
May be to cut another bigger diamond ) Ok I want to show off my knowledge of diamonds
GE is the largest manufacturer of Industrial diamonds
Chalo
You have failed to understand the thrust of my post, that's my inability to communicate and the innate urge of Indians to be defensive about everything. ( like the way I am now )
Chalo yar Jane bhi do na ?
Man Gaye aap Mahan hai
Jai ram ji ki
Ps:
In summation all I wanted to say was (with out realizing how knowledgeable you are...)
Don't belittle skills
Don't lose the precession skill sets of people especially artisans
Self esteem is self determined not imposed.
Self esteem is independent of job you do for livelihood
( Puranas have dharmavyad, a butcher by profession a realized soul who could go beyond skin deep to meat and bones to meet Vedanta all the way and teach Kalakoushik a trick or two)
Social and economic growth should not be curbing your talent
Ok I will stop this drone attack
Like average BRF member you seem to know lot more than I do.
You wrote everything I know, and you know that I know as well about smallest diamonds being polished which other nations in polishing business don't take up because of the labor costs.
Some of these smaller diamonds earlier wee being sent to industrial uses in cutting tools (
May be to cut another bigger diamond ) Ok I want to show off my knowledge of diamonds
GE is the largest manufacturer of Industrial diamonds
Chalo
You have failed to understand the thrust of my post, that's my inability to communicate and the innate urge of Indians to be defensive about everything. ( like the way I am now )
For this I said RS 10 was built into fare for reservation to which you say they don't even travel in reservation compartmentskapilrdave wrote:Many of them don't know how to get a reserved compartment in the train to their hometown. But then, They are the best in the world in what they are doing. We all know what they contribute to the economy.
Chalo yar Jane bhi do na ?
Man Gaye aap Mahan hai
Jai ram ji ki
Ps:
In summation all I wanted to say was (with out realizing how knowledgeable you are...)
Don't belittle skills
Don't lose the precession skill sets of people especially artisans
Self esteem is self determined not imposed.
Self esteem is independent of job you do for livelihood
( Puranas have dharmavyad, a butcher by profession a realized soul who could go beyond skin deep to meat and bones to meet Vedanta all the way and teach Kalakoushik a trick or two)
Social and economic growth should not be curbing your talent
Ok I will stop this drone attack
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Sorry but
If you study the gold ornaments and jewelry industry in India
It's the story of dabba wallahs Mumbai in another way
Big names like tribhuvan das Jaweri, Sherman Jain, joy Lucas
etc take the order ( if its not a show case item)
Then sub contract it to viswa karma aka goldsmith who takes it home to his workshop and starts the work, the trust, and the ensured quality of workmanship is built over the long run.
Again notice the capitalistic self organized system of dependency
The (Oliver) goldsmith has the skills but not the capital or marketing skills of Zaveri and Caveri type setup
The venture capital investor Zaveri buys the gold in open market or import license and the gets it done
Thru Out sourcing and in sourcing, distribution, equipment logistics are divided and the consumer is conquered
Recall the gold days when each family had its own haram, gold smith, tailor and a Dhobi
It's a changed world now
Ok time for me to be chastised by kapilrdave sahib
I wait your mota lathi showerings
If you study the gold ornaments and jewelry industry in India
It's the story of dabba wallahs Mumbai in another way
Big names like tribhuvan das Jaweri, Sherman Jain, joy Lucas
etc take the order ( if its not a show case item)
Then sub contract it to viswa karma aka goldsmith who takes it home to his workshop and starts the work, the trust, and the ensured quality of workmanship is built over the long run.
Again notice the capitalistic self organized system of dependency
The (Oliver) goldsmith has the skills but not the capital or marketing skills of Zaveri and Caveri type setup
The venture capital investor Zaveri buys the gold in open market or import license and the gets it done
Thru Out sourcing and in sourcing, distribution, equipment logistics are divided and the consumer is conquered
Recall the gold days when each family had its own haram, gold smith, tailor and a Dhobi
It's a changed world now
Ok time for me to be chastised by kapilrdave sahib
I wait your mota lathi showerings
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 2059
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
^^_^^
can't understand what you write easily ....
can't understand what you write easily ....
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
BTW. Something I'm struggling with.
Is it a good thing to be focusing on stuff like diamond and gold jewelry in a still relatively poor nation.
To my mind these are luxuries meant for wealthy folks oozing with disposable income. This is not a productive investment right. OK some of it gets exported so we get raw cash but most of it goes into the domestic market anyway. And it is still a consumerist waste of money and effort, effort that could be better focused on productive investments.
You can all jump on me and call me a donkey now.
Is it a good thing to be focusing on stuff like diamond and gold jewelry in a still relatively poor nation.
To my mind these are luxuries meant for wealthy folks oozing with disposable income. This is not a productive investment right. OK some of it gets exported so we get raw cash but most of it goes into the domestic market anyway. And it is still a consumerist waste of money and effort, effort that could be better focused on productive investments.
You can all jump on me and call me a donkey now.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 17249
- Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
- Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
First set of questions to ponder:
Is India's economic and social backwardness due to lack of funds? How much black money left Indian shores (one can give most conservative estimates)? Are the available funds used resourcefully? Are we using our national savings efficiently?
Second set of questions to ponder:
How different a family buying 10gms of gold is from a suave investor buying 1 gold future? What is investment and what is not?
Third set of questions to ponder:
Why do majority Indians feel it is safe to purchase gold and land instead of investing in say equities and saving it in Banks? Who contributed to the fear of risk w.r.t Equities market and Banking (public and private) sectors?
Is India's economic and social backwardness due to lack of funds? How much black money left Indian shores (one can give most conservative estimates)? Are the available funds used resourcefully? Are we using our national savings efficiently?
Second set of questions to ponder:
How different a family buying 10gms of gold is from a suave investor buying 1 gold future? What is investment and what is not?
Third set of questions to ponder:
Why do majority Indians feel it is safe to purchase gold and land instead of investing in say equities and saving it in Banks? Who contributed to the fear of risk w.r.t Equities market and Banking (public and private) sectors?
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Interesting.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles ... nergy-plan
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles ... nergy-plan
India-based Praj Industries Ltd. has announced plans to develop a 10 million liter (2.64 million gallon) cellulosic ethanol demonstration plant. According to the company, the plant will demonstrate the technical and commercial and technical viability of its technology. In addition, the facility will enable the optimization of water and energy integration and their impact on capital expenditures and operational expenditures. In a statement, Praj also said the project will aid in the development of a value chain, including feedstock handling and feedstock characteristics, and the impact of these factor on operations.
According to Praj, the engineering package for the plant is complete and memorandum of understanding has been signed with a customer to secure the project’s location. Praj is in discussions with other strategic investors and partners for participation in the project.
Praj is scheduled to break ground on the demonstration facility in 2013. The total cost of the project is expected to range between $25 million and $30 million.
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Looks like the cycle is turning once again....
Profits up 19.7%
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ry/492078/
Profits up 19.7%
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ry/492078/
After four successive quarters of disappointment, corporate results showed encouraging trends in the quarter ended September 30, 2012. An analysis of 1,071 companies (excluding banks and other financial entities) by the Business Standard Research Bureau, reported in this newspaper on Wednesday, indicated that most key margins have improved. There has, however, been a slowdown in the sales growth rates. Compared to the July-September 2011 quarter, net sales have grown by 14 per cent, which is lower than the average sales growth rate of about 21 per cent in the previous four quarters. Offsetting slower growth, operating profits rose 19.7 per cent — the first double-digit climb in five quarters. Net profit adjusted for extraordinary items also rose 20.6 per cent, which is by far the best result in the last five quarters. Best of all, interest costs have risen only 7.7 per cent, a sea change compared to an average increase of 51 per cent across the previous four quarters. Notably, the absolute interest burden has declined 11 per cent compared to the first quarter (Q1) of 2012-13. The number of loss-making companies declined from 233 in Q2, 2011-12, to 221 companies in Q2, 2012-13. Their cumulative losses also declined by 10 per cent to Rs 2,600 crore.
Other ratios, too, improved. Operating margins are up year-on-year, to 18.5 per cent from 17.7 per cent in Q2, 2011-12. Net profit margins (stripped of extraordinary items) are also up, to 9.2 per cent from the earlier 8.75 per cent. Total expenditure rose by 13.5 per cent, compared to an average rise of 25 per cent across the last five quarters. Expenditure net of raw material and interest costs has also fallen compared to the past two quarters (January-March 2012 and April-June 2012). Cement has delivered yet another standout performance with 86 per cent profit growth over Q2, 2011-12. Agro-chemicals (up 58 per cent), non-ferrous metals (+30%), software (+29%), FMCG (+ 22%) and infrastructure developers (+21%) have all done well, with adjusted net profits growing at better than 20 per cent. In contrast, automobiles (-4 %), capital goods (-9%) and steel (-24%) have registered lower profits than in Q2, 2011-12. Clearly, India Inc is coping better, given a slightly easier environment. Inflation remains high and so do policy interest rates. But fuel and power costs have dropped and some softening in other non-food commodities is visible. The raw material-to-sales ratio fell to 44.6 per cent in Q2, 2012-13, versus 44.8 per cent in Q1, 2012-13. Interest rates have been steady through the past six months. The rupee’s stabilisation is reflected in net foreign exchange gains.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 6046
- Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
- Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
Lo Ji. I had warned on the perils of the caste based mobilization and backward caste politics of the medieval / anti modern Dravidian movement kind here.
Pretending to be most "modern", while mouthing rhetoric against Brahmins who are the really the "modern" community in TN , and continuing with the "Jaati Buddhi" of old has hypocritical limits.
But modernity will roll on neverthless. And the "backwards" vs "dalits" caste wars continue for the old coots.
Intercaste Marriage Sparks riot in TN district, 148 dalit houses torched
Pretending to be most "modern", while mouthing rhetoric against Brahmins who are the really the "modern" community in TN , and continuing with the "Jaati Buddhi" of old has hypocritical limits.
But modernity will roll on neverthless. And the "backwards" vs "dalits" caste wars continue for the old coots.
Intercaste Marriage Sparks riot in TN district, 148 dalit houses torched
Now the same "Most Backward" dominant caste thugs will scream that they want "no caste" , except of course when it serves their purpose (reservations, jobs, housing and other privileges and keeping the real downtrodden, the Dalits under their feet).Outraged by the suicide of a man who felt humiliated after his daughter married a dalit boy in secret, a mob of non-dalits went on the rampage in three villages of Dharmapuri district, looting and burning houses of dalits late on Wednesday, police said.
The 2,500-strong mob set ablaze 148 houses in Natham, Anna Nagar and Kondampatti villages. They claimed that the "humiliation" caused by the marriage and the refusal of the dalits to send the woman back home had resulted in the suicide of G Nagarajan (48). The mob looted valuables before setting the houses on fire.
Though 300 policemen were present, they failed to control the mob after being grossly outnumbered. The arson and looting continued till 9.30pm when additional police forces arrived on the scene.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 5882
- Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
- Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي
Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012
It is Joy Alukkas (His name is Joy, and family name is Alukka. the family had been in ornament business for generations, under the name Alukkas)
The way it works here in DMA is, there are semi-mechanized factories (whose whereabouts are never let out for security) staffed mostly by the hereditary goldsmiths. Gold is alloyed into 916 grade and fabricated into strips, wires and stampings by machines. Then artisans take over who solder them together using gas torches at modern magnified work benches. The ornaments are then hallmarked at an approved facility before being put on display at the shop. It is a bigg backend business here.
A couple of years ago, Southern Jewellers, who started a retail facility after being in the backend business for long let the cat out. That is how us aam admi came to know of it.
It is a very tight community. The local shops try to fight the branded chains at any cost. They refuse to buy/exchange articles by TBZ, Tanishq etc. As JoyAlukkas left their cartel for wider international markets, his product also are not bought/exchanged.
Trust is also a bigg factor. Bhima do not give much discounts, and charge high making charges. They sell the same 916 grade as others, and the designs are nothing different. Still, their store is always full, and the other biggies near their store are not!! It is funny business.
And here is my speculation: This business is very very suitable for underworld money. It is mostly "black money". You can safely put your money into a jeweller, because the gold is your collateral. If you are inside the cartel (hence no barriers for running your business), you can get hundreds of crores in working capital, very cheaply. The "investor" will have a very reliable business, and can launder a good % of the black money.
Everyone wins, except the poor husbands who pay for all these "exchanges".
The way it works here in DMA is, there are semi-mechanized factories (whose whereabouts are never let out for security) staffed mostly by the hereditary goldsmiths. Gold is alloyed into 916 grade and fabricated into strips, wires and stampings by machines. Then artisans take over who solder them together using gas torches at modern magnified work benches. The ornaments are then hallmarked at an approved facility before being put on display at the shop. It is a bigg backend business here.
A couple of years ago, Southern Jewellers, who started a retail facility after being in the backend business for long let the cat out. That is how us aam admi came to know of it.
It is a very tight community. The local shops try to fight the branded chains at any cost. They refuse to buy/exchange articles by TBZ, Tanishq etc. As JoyAlukkas left their cartel for wider international markets, his product also are not bought/exchanged.
Trust is also a bigg factor. Bhima do not give much discounts, and charge high making charges. They sell the same 916 grade as others, and the designs are nothing different. Still, their store is always full, and the other biggies near their store are not!! It is funny business.
And here is my speculation: This business is very very suitable for underworld money. It is mostly "black money". You can safely put your money into a jeweller, because the gold is your collateral. If you are inside the cartel (hence no barriers for running your business), you can get hundreds of crores in working capital, very cheaply. The "investor" will have a very reliable business, and can launder a good % of the black money.
Everyone wins, except the poor husbands who pay for all these "exchanges".