Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

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Arunkumar
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Arunkumar »

Ramay ji to add to your list, :mrgreen:
10.) The state also designs and builds all types of rocket engines(solid, hypergolic and cryogenic engines) at VSSC (T'puram)
11.) Supersonic missiles at brahmos (T'puram),
12.) Aircraft carriers at kochi
13.) Naval ship design center(NIRDESH) at kozhikode.
13.) Naval and coast guard training center at kannur
14.) HAL strategic electronics factory at kasargod
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

I don't know why everyone misses Goa.

Highest per capita income in India. Last I checked approaching $4,500 per capita. Probably above $5,000 by now as it is growing strongly at 10% per annum. Likely to be a $10,000 per capita state by 2016-17. Technically it is one step from becoming a marginally first world type state. Our very own Singapore.

With lack of heavy industry and resources, it is doing it through services, brain power and hard work. Despite it unsettled politics and stupid politicians. All the hall marks of an economy of the 21st century. Should be an example to the rest of us.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

8)

Goa's is not a good example. Why? It is so small that it fails in comparison with say the Banjara Hills of Hyderabad, where the per-capita income will be in the range of $20,000.

Secondly Goa's GDP is hardly $3B. It is a "samudram lo kaaki retta" (a crows dropping in the ocean) compared to India.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa#Economy

Thirdly it doesn't fit our target society (Christian dominated, English speaking etc.,)
According to the 2001 census, out of a total population of 1,343,998 people, 886,551 (65.7%) were Hindus :eek: :eek: :eek: , 359,568 (26.6%) were Christians, 92,210 (6.8%) were Muslims, 970 (0.01%) were Sikhs, 649 (0.001%) were Buddhists, 820 (0.005%) were Jains and 353 (0.0005%) belonged to other religious communities.
Konkani is spoken as a native language by about 61% of the people in the state but almost all Goans can speak and understand Konkani. Other linguistic minorities in the state as per the 2001 census are Marathi (21%), Kannada (5%), Hindi (5%), and Urdu (4%).[35]
The Goa government has recently decided to not allow any more special economic zones (SEZs) in Goa. This is in stark contrast to policy followed by other states of India. SEZs are known to bring tax revenues for the government and employment option for local citizens since industries flock there for lower tax rates as compared to other areas. Currently there are 16 planned SEZs in Goa. This decision was taken by state government after strong opposition to SEZs by political parties and Goa Catholic Church.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Yeah that’s what they said about Singapore as well.

Never understand why the Gujarat boosters must run down the rest of India. :-? I still say well done Goa.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

^ My only problem with Goa is that they are doing well inspite of being Hindu majority state and inspite of Catholic church's opposition to SEZs.

Bunch of fanatics, I do not want to emulate.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

That's silly. Don't have to communalise everything.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

:P just pulling your legs Theoji. OK I will behave.

I am seriously trying to understand what is holding a state like Kerala, which appeared to have the right mix of preconditions that you mentioned in the past few pages (especially in Education realm and Caste/Social-mix realm) for social/economic progress.

My gut says it is lack of Vision and Leadership. Lack of vision because of the disharmony between Kerala's natural being/rythm and the secular-socialist constipation. We need to destroy one of these to move forward. And someone made a choice for Kerala it looks like.

Once the vision become clear, the leadership bubbles up.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_23629 »

Theo_Fidel wrote:I don't know why everyone misses Goa.

Highest per capita income in India. Last I checked approaching $4,500 per capita. Probably above $5,000 by now as it is growing strongly at 10% per annum. Likely to be a $10,000 per capita state by 2016-17. Technically it is one step from becoming a marginally first world type state. Our very own Singapore.

With lack of heavy industry and resources, it is doing it through services, brain power and hard work. Despite it unsettled politics and stupid politicians. All the hall marks of an economy of the 21st century. Should be an example to the rest of us.
I have lived in Goa for five years. There is no brain power and hard work -- it is on the contrary. Most of the GDP is accounted for by mining iron ore -- this has devastated the countryside. The ore will run out in 20 years and then there will be a drastic fall in living standards. The other contributor to GDP is tourism (almost every Goan on the coast has a shop in his house selling knick-knacks to tourists or rents out rooms to tourists). This is seasonal business. The third revenue earner is the Goans working in middle east who send money orders home. Then there is also some agriculture. Goans hardly consume anything -- they are not brand conscious.

Opening shops is a big thing -- even rich middle class people have shops. Salaries are pathetic. There is zero industrialisation (despite Goa having 18 industrial estates). As far as hard work is concerned, try geting a Goan to work. The concept of "Susagade" prevails ("Why do today what you can do tomorrow.") The highest aspiration of the youth is to become a DJ in a hotel or open a restaurant or go to Gulf. Christian bigotry is rampant -- church interferes in everything. It was single-handely responsible for orchestrating protests against building of Konkan railway. Goans are very ill-travelled -- the furthest they would ever travel would be to Mumbai and back (which is considered a life-time adventure.) It is a semi-urban society which is paranoid that non-Goans are going to take over Goa with their constant migration to the state.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Hmm..
That is odd. Why is the per capita income so high then. It can't all be Gelf money. They are doing something right. Yes/No.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

vina wrote:
It's about time we instituted Argentina-like punitive duties on luxury goods imports. While it may not be the largest reason for the deficit, anything that balances the trade deficit helps.
Dawood Ibrahim will be laughing all the way to the Bank again.

The idiotic gold import law and taxes (these were flushed down the drain in the 1991 reforms, one of the first acts of MMS), was the cause of his wealth in the first place (he ran a legit business in Dubai of "exporting" gold to india).

The root cause of the deficit is not consumption, but overspending by the govt egged on by the commie brotherhood giri. Get the fiscal deficit in control, all the rest will fall in place. The fiscal deficit is the elephant in the room and thanks to Pranab Mukherjee and his Bengal influenced mai-baap politics and commiegiri, we have run into the situation we are in today.
What does overspending by GoI have to do with the trade deficit ?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_23629 »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Hmm..
That is odd. Why is the per capita income so high then. It can't all be Gelf money. They are doing something right. Yes/No.
It is money from mining and tourism. There is no other significant revenue generator.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

RamaY wrote:
RamaY wrote:A question for members from Kerala.

1. Kerala achieved near 100% literacy long time ago. They also have English advantage.
2. Kerala has a good economy based on natural resources, commercial crops etc.,
3. They also have long coastal area - good for trade
4. They also have stable govts
5. They also have forex remittances long before any other state! One in six work outside the country
6. They also have a strong tourism industry.
7. They also have strong cultural identity
8. It is ruled by non-communal govts
9. It has the right mix of religion (especially the faiths that are said to be more prone for economic progress)

What are the short falls if any in Kerala? Why is its per capita income so low? Why doesn't that state reflect a singapore or something like that?

Thanks in advance.
Because China's chairman is our chairman (when elected) ? :)
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Nomura says high imports are due to structural capacity problems in economy. Not just luxury imports, though gold imports are now $50 Billion per year and rising. If buying gold makes folks rich we should be the wealthiest folks on the planet. What foolishness.

Kinda depressing to hear.
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WRT Goa Tourism is a most definitely a brains and bloody hard work industry. Vegas lives entirely of Tourism. Goa has found a way to make it pay for them and has done the hard work necessary to make them the richest state in India. While they might be sitting on their a$$ compared to rest of the world, the reality appears to be that that the rest of India is even more sclerotic. We would do well to get to that level of income before putting them down. It is good that they are filled with retail entrepreneurs as well, though I'm not a fan of the random potti-kaddai at every intersection approach.

I'm a big fan of SEZ's but I'm not sure putting them in lush Goa is the best option. Without local cheap labor what is the point. Put it up in Dharwad and ship the goods through Marmagoa. Plenty of cheap labor up there.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

Most of the "advantages" listed for Kerala are thin, or you could substitute many other states and be equally correct (Mizoram has a strong cultural identity, Orissa has a long natural coastline etc). 100% literacy is really the only real differentiator.

It's fairly obvious that Kerala's main problem is communism and the general anti-business sentiment it engenders.

---------

IMO Goa's tourism industry will run into a ceiling because well off Indian tourists will increasingly find popping over to Thailand or Indonesia cheaper and more desirable than going to Goa because of 10x better infrastructure, better cleanliness and (incredibly) better deals on good hotels.

The remainder are mostly lower-spending domestic tourists who cannot support a high-income economy (you can't have tourists from poorer parts of India supporting a high income state through tourism); and backpackers from Russia, Israel and Eastern Europe.

Natural resources will run out.

If Goa is to become rich on the back of tourism it'll have to upgrade its infrastructure far beyond anything comparable in India to compete with the big boys of SE Asia.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

WRT Infrastructure even way back when I went it had easily the best Urban infrastructure in India.

Well there are still a lot of tourism revenue streams Goa has not accessed yet.

- Some form of high scale gambling.
- Convention traffic
- Shipping/Cruise lines/Etc
- Vacation rental properties

I think there is a lot more where that came from. Like I said Goa could easily turn into the Florida Keys of India, just without the Ganja and crime. I don't think Goa has topped out at all. I can easily see a $25,000 per capita income type economy if Goa works its options. But yes needs a ton more investment but India needs that too.

The TFTA snobbish class has long been lost to India for the swiss passport stamp. Good riddance is what I say.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

The best urban infra in India is unfortunately not saying much. Conventions, cruise lines etc need much more developed infrastructure than what's available, although my memories are a few years old -- I don't think there has been a quantum change since then.

Tourists will go where they get the most bang for their buck, and I don't think writing off any market segment makes sense. If Goa can become comparable to Phuket in terms of infrastructure, it could pick up the same kinds of high income tourists -- but it isn't even in the same ballpark from my experience.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

Theo_Fidel wrote: I think there is a lot more where that came from. Like I said Goa could easily turn into the Florida Keys of India, just without the Ganja and crime. I don't think Goa has topped out at all. I can easily see a $25,000 per capita income type economy if Goa works its options. But yes needs a ton more investment but India needs that too.
Goa definitely became the ganja capital of India, I hear.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nachiket »

RamaY wrote: Goa definitely became the ganja capital of India, I hear.
If it isn't already.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Abhijeet wrote:....but it isn't even in the same ballpark from my experience.
Well I dunno…..

You get what you pay for IME. In India you want good stuff you pay properly and go to the private sector for it. Few years ago I stayed at Cidade Goa (which BTW is really only 2 star at best) because I got a rate at $160 a night. You can’t get anything on Phuket at that price unless you go decidedly down scale.

But yes the public infrastructure is better because Thai per capita income is $12,000. The really cool thing about the first and even second world is that even down scale folks have access to first class public infrastructure. India will be there fairly quickly. Goa has some money and a chance. It is investing furiously and growing at 10%, that absolutely helps.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I thought the backwoods of my hostel was Ganja capital. Grew wild. :) If not certain areas of IIT-M campus.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

What does overspending by GoI have to do with the trade deficit ?
Inflation remains high due to structural reasons, rupee falls on a real relative basis, exports dont rise commensurately because of dead markets abroad, import costs soar , and more importantly, since currency is debased, people don't trust it as a store of wealth and start importing gold and current account deficit sinks further.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

vina wrote:Inflation remains high due to structural reasons, rupee falls on a real relative basis, exports dont rise commensurately because of dead markets abroad, import costs soar , and more importantly, since currency is debased, people don't trust it as a store of wealth and start importing gold and current account deficit sinks further.
I agree with structural inflation, but that's been the case for ages. I would contest the idea that exports aren't rising much. They are up quite dramatically if you look at 1-, 3-, 5- or 10-year periods. Imports have just risen that much more. Gold imports haven't substantially changed in volume, just in nominal value, and that is due to the debasement of the dollar, not the Rupee. Similarly, chronically high crude prices are a function of the QE measures in US and EU. So if we're talking about a government's actions here, we should realistically be talking about GOTUS and EU, far more so than GoI. The latter is the same bumbling entity - it's just stuck in a spot without adequate ammunition.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

I have been to both phuket and goa. The road infra in phuket is ok but nothing shakinaw. Some parts are crowded. It has two good beaches , a bunch of resorts and nothing much inland except some malls. Goa has plenty good roads, equal num of high end resorts, much better natural beauty up north and inland. Phuket does have advantage of phang nga bay a short boat ride away and they have developed that with beach islands, fishing village lunch, inflatable boat rides and viewing the limestone karst islands. Other than the limestone islands, something similar could be done in goa to take peope to remoter parts of the coast or up the rivers to the interior.

The higher end the tourist more time they spend inside the resort itself snd perhaps sun their bodies on the beach. There are some very high end resorts in africa on those lines...located next to watering holes and you get there by light planes.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Always good to go straight to the source. Here is RBI data on the sources of our inflation rate.

If you took out food and fuel as the rest of world does including Panda our inflation rate is only 4%. I think RBI needs to loosen monetary policy as the rest of the world is not cooperating. So India gets stuck with 13% money and damages its growth while rest of world gets 0% money due to inflation report shenanigans.

Vina saar needs to give up yumbeeyea-giri and look at the real numbers. :P :mrgreen:

Image
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

I have been to both phuket and goa. The road infra in phuket is ok but nothing shakinaw.
Me too. We stayed in a great 4 star "Japanese" style hotel in Phuket right on the beach. But this is something I could never figure out. Goa is more expensive than Phuket cost wise. This is true with much of India as well, when compared to S.E Asia and of course China.

You can easily get a decent bed & breakfast / 4 star kind of stuff for $60 to $100 a night at even Singapore , not to mention Bangkok , but close to impossible in Bangalore , Kerala. Throw in food & beverage , the cost sky rockets in India.

The better places in India start above $220 a night, esp in Goa. In India, you have the extremes (either a filthy unacceptable rat hole or stratospherically priced uber Phive Ishtaar, but no acceptable middle).
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

Suraj wrote:Imports have just risen that much more. Gold imports haven't substantially changed in volume, just in nominal value, and that is due to the debasement of the dollar, not the Rupee. Similarly, chronically high crude prices are a function of the QE measures in US and EU.
Net-net. We have a problem. This would have been countered only with a very low fiscal deficit and a rupee that holds its own against the dollar. If we had that, we would have seen a flood of inflows, low interest rates, uninterrupted growth (due to continued investment) and not have the forex trouble we are having now (okay, exports would have been hit, but that was a given with the economic conditions in the US and EU anyways).
So if we're talking about a government's actions here, we should realistically be talking about GOTUS and EU, far more so than GoI. The latter is the same bumbling entity - it's just stuck in a spot without adequate ammunition.
If you go back and look up the reactions I had to Shri Pranab Mukherjees budgets (I didn't Lungi Dance to those as some posters here claim as "well recorded") and how I had called it the "All the ducks must line up perfectly all the time for it to work" budget , you can see where and how the ball got dropped by the Indian govt . They basically instead of using the good times to build fiscal capacity that can be used in adversity, the Kangress - Mukherjee- NAC triumvirate blew it on fiscal profligacy and are now without ammo to deal with adversity. Mukherjee ensured that we shot ourselves in the foot here.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

yes thats true - bangkok and phuket you can certainly get very good hotels and serviced apts much cheaper than india. singapore is a bit pricier but still reasonable for such a well developed shakina place.

goa is very expensive, but so is the better hotels in kerala and even kodaikanal and ooty.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

From what I saw in Phuket (a five day trip two years back) the roads everywhere were well-surfaced, had lane markings, proper shoulders, and disciplined traffic. Also a high density of shops, cafes, ATMs (very important) and hotels at many different price points near the touristy Patong Beach strip. Very different from Goa, which was much more rural from what I remember, although I haven't been there in a decade and things may have changed. Hotels are also overpriced in India and that's a major part of any travel budget.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Yogi_G »

What is the opinions of Gurus here on the catching up of wages for the blue collared workers vis a vis the strong economic growth? My local electrician takes 300 rupees for fitting a fan and 150 rupees for a tubelight. Now thats 7 $ for an hour's work while the minimum wage in US is 8$ for an hour. Our PPP GDP being 1/4th of theirs and per capita income being 1/11th.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Arjun »

vina wrote:If you go back and look up the reactions I had to Shri Pranab Mukherjees budgets (I didn't Lungi Dance to those as some posters here claim as "well recorded") and how I had called it the "All the ducks must line up perfectly all the time for it to work" budget , you can see where and how the ball got dropped by the Indian govt .
Vina ji, the lungi-dance posts of yours after Pranab da's budgets are easily retrievable. But that's really a side issue as far as I am concerned.

The main point of my previous post was to suggest that you need not beat about the bush when referencing the fiscal deficit situation. Any blame that needs to be assigned needs to be unambiguously directed towards the Maino matriarch, rather than towards some random fall-guys who take the rap for the Dynasty's misdeeds.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Aditya_V »

Yogi_G wrote:What is the opinions of Gurus here on the catching up of wages for the blue collared workers vis a vis the strong economic growth? My local electrician takes 300 rupees for fitting a fan and 150 rupees for a tubelight. Now thats 7 $ for an hour's work while the minimum wage in US is 8$ for an hour. Our PPP GDP being 1/4th of theirs and per capita income being 1/11th.
Electricians and plumbers are skilled jobs and come at a price anywhere in the world, no way in the US you are going to get a Plumber or Electrician for minimum wages
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by darshhan »

There is a subset of Indians(among other tourists) that will always prefer phuket and Thailand in general over any part of India including Goa. A group of my friends will fall in this category. They visit Thailand once every year. And sightseeing/infrastructure is just a minor part of agenda. You can easily guess their real purpose.

As far as I know no other country can even compare with Thailand on this(especially when you factor cost).
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

The old "we are more moral" argument. Morality and good infrastructure are not mutually exclusive. The majority of tourists go to Phuket (or Bali) rather than Goa because of better facilities, not for any other reason.

Anyway I thought Thailand's sex industry was more around Bangkok/Pattaya, not Phuket?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

Anyway I thought Thailand's sex industry was more around Bangkok/Pattaya, not Phuket?
Where ever there are tourists, you have it. Phuket, Krabi, Koh Samui and Chiang Mai included. In Phuket, the streets parallel to the beach and the intersecting lanes at Patong for eg.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by SwamyG »

Aditya_V wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:What is the opinions of Gurus here on the catching up of wages for the blue collared workers vis a vis the strong economic growth? My local electrician takes 300 rupees for fitting a fan and 150 rupees for a tubelight. Now thats 7 $ for an hour's work while the minimum wage in US is 8$ for an hour. Our PPP GDP being 1/4th of theirs and per capita income being 1/11th.
Electricians and plumbers are skilled jobs and come at a price anywhere in the world, no way in the US you are going to get a Plumber or Electrician for minimum wages
They also require licensing. While indivual handymen or contractor might do simple plumbing or electrical jobs, any established company will not make its non licensed workers to do electrical or plumbing work. They would not want to get sued. Maybe the city codes and state laws dictate. In anyway, one will never get even a service person for less than 20 or 25 bucks, let alone plumbers and electricians who will charge an arm and leg.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

vina wrote:
So if we're talking about a government's actions here, we should realistically be talking about GOTUS and EU, far more so than GoI. The latter is the same bumbling entity - it's just stuck in a spot without adequate ammunition.
If you go back and look up the reactions I had to Shri Pranab Mukherjees budgets (I didn't Lungi Dance to those as some posters here claim as "well recorded") and how I had called it the "All the ducks must line up perfectly all the time for it to work" budget , you can see where and how the ball got dropped by the Indian govt . They basically instead of using the good times to build fiscal capacity that can be used in adversity, the Kangress - Mukherjee- NAC triumvirate blew it on fiscal profligacy and are now without ammo to deal with adversity. Mukherjee ensured that we shot ourselves in the foot here.
I don't think we're saying different things. GoI didn't save for a rainy day - it spent when it was flush, and when it's facing difficult times, it has no headroom. I don't think they did anything different from what they've done (or rather, not done) historically. However this isn't a malaise isolated to GoI. On the other hand, the factors driving up the cost of crude and gold - our two biggest imports - are actions by other central banks that continue to drive commodity price inflation.

What can be done ? Accelerate NELP programs to improve domestic hydrocarbon energy sources, as well as foster investment in renewables, with particular emphasis on domestic supply chains. Stabilizing and reducing the $150 billion crude import bill would be very beneficial, considering that figure was a full 50% of overall exports last year. Little can be done about gold - it's a social hot button, and attempt to impose duties and taxes will drive the business underground, as seen from past history. GoI will probably tack on a small tax on it and get away with adding a revenue stream in that manner, as it's already done to an extent.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RajeshA »

pentaiah wrote:the question is do they know that
it is the responsibilty of citizenry and the rulers to make them feel proud of their contribution. This pride will result in better quality and confidence in them.

The big difference between Indians and Western countries.
"though most of those diamond workers are such, they don't want their children to be like them. They would do everything to give their
children the best education. And most of them have less children. The importance of education has prevailed to the lowest level of the society.
If and when the pride (self respect , self esteem) in individuals is established, empowered they will never feel inferior because of the job they do.
there is nothing wrong in being the best diamond polisher (ask Neil Diamond), but their aspiration of wanting their progney to prosper is a very noble and deserving ambition.

In the western countries the children of a artisan , blue collar worker, carpenter, baker, welder builder want to preserve the skills out of pride as as artist.
unfortunately in INDIA this trait is encouraged only in politicians like Gandhis, Chidambarams Karuna nidhis Gulam SIngh yadavs etc or movie actors....

this is the reason west is technologically advanced as their invention crucible spans from reasearch labs to garrages. our ways are only for privilaged few.

So let not artistic talents vanish
we already lost the skills of investment casting and metallurgy when the British rampages us.
I concur very much with the above sentiment.

One thing we should also strive for is to distinguish between the value of a skill and the value of employment in the field! For some skills today, one may not earn much, but the skill needs to be handed down, both from father to child, but more generally from one generation to the next, and the skill should be nurtured not simply because of reasons of employment, but for reasons of culture and family tradition.

One thing I have noticed in the West, every skill is considered worth preserving. If one goes to the Middle Ages Festivals in Germany, one still sees some people trying to make utensils and clothes the old way. Handicrafts made by hand still fetch premium prices. People are proud of their Home Improvement indulgences. In India many simply like to outsource all this work to the manual labor, considering it often beneath themselves. We don't even make kites now by ourselves!
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_23629 »

In the western countries the children of a artisan , blue collar worker, carpenter, baker, welder builder want to preserve the skills out of pride as as artist.
The entire caste system of India was built around this concept, with skills passed down from generation to generation. This had allowed us to excel in craftsmanship for 2,000 years before Brits came and destroyed the occupations in 18th century by regressive taxes and monopolies.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

Hmm. A good answer to the Uber Phive Ishtaar or a filthy shack riddle as far as hotels go in India was provided yesterday . I was watching Bloomberg TV before dozing off and there was an interview with the founder of Lemon Tree hotels and he remarked on the very different nature of the Indian market (5 star or shack) with no middle present and the interviewer asked him why.

The answer is basically, land prices are very high in India, interest rates are very high and the marginal cost between say a 3, 4 and 5 star is very little and if at all you are building a hotel, it makes all the sense to go the full monty and to Phive Ishtaar de-luxe. So all the investments in terms of hotels tends to go toward the top most end and very little in the 3 /4 star affordability end. This basically damages tourism dramatically and we end up attracting either the 5 star clientele or the back packing type of goras or the theerth yatra style mass crowds ,leaving out the entire crowd in the middle which would lap up a good affordable product.

Thanks once again to the distortions due to the Govt policy brought about by the usual Dilli ding-dong suspects.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

Yes, high land costs are one of the primary reasons for high hotel costs in India. Budget chains like Ginger -- exactly the type of good quality, reasonably priced hotel chains we need -- aren't expanding as quickly as they should because of this, and are confined to small towns or out of the way areas in big cities. There still isn't a Ginger hotel in Mumbai as far as I know.

One thing I wonder about is that there are plenty of marginally profitable, low-end small businesses (retail stores, hair cutting salons, chaiwalas etc) running in central areas of big cities. How do they manage to survive in what should be high-rent areas?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Jaspreet »

One thing I wonder about is that there are plenty of marginally profitable, low-end small businesses (retail stores, hair cutting salons, chaiwalas etc) running in central areas of big cities. How do they manage to survive in what should be high-rent areas?
I can tell you about Delhi. I don't know about other cities.

In many areas of Delhi, when refugees came in 1947 and rented accommodation for business or for residence, the rent was like Re 1.00 per month. This I think was the market rent in those days.

As the years went by and landlords tried to raise rent, the tenants went to the Rent Controller and got the rent frozen. The landlord was left with costly and immensely time consuming litigation to raise and/or evict the tenant.

The law in Delhi requires that landlord show "bonafide necessity" in order to get an eviction order. It isn't always possible. And even if it is, the litigation process is so time-consuming and so convoluted that people grow too old to care as the case progresses.

There are people who have rented shops in Karol Bagh area of New Delhi for the last 40 years. They're paying a pittance, if at all anything, for rent. They won't get out no matter what. Some may get out after getting a sizeable "pagri" and then too if the building is sold to a builder who knows politicians and musclemen.

If you're thinking there is no law and no governance you're right.
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