The Mughal Era in India

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jul 2012 12:16

How Khilji dynasty was brought down by one Gujrati Hindu Convert Khusro Khan

Capture and enslavement

In 1297, Alauddin Khilji sent an army under the command of Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan to plunder Gujarat. They first captured Patan by defeating the last Hindu ruler Karan Vaghela, then reached the Somanath temple in Saurashtra. They found no resistance and later fought with Hamirji Gohil of the Lathi State and his friend Vegado Bhil, who were both killed in a battle near the Somnath temple. Khusro Khan, whose original name is not known, was fighting alongside Vegada Bhil and Hamirji Gohil. Before his death at Somanath, Vegado Bhil ordered Khusro Khan to escape and to take revenge with Alauddin Khilji. Khusro Khan was captured, converted to Islam and enslaved. Known as 'Hasan,' he was subsequently given the title Khusro Khan by Mubarak. As a favorite of Mubarak, he led armies to the south.
[edit]Capturing the throne

It is said that Mokhadaji Gohil of Piram also met Khusro Khan. At that time, Khusro Khan also advised Mokhadaji Gohil to fight against Delhi Sultanate. Khusro Khan got Allauddin Khilji killed by his friend Jahiriya.In 1320 Khusro Khan managed to kill Alauddin Khilji’s son, Qutb ud din Mubarak Shah, ending the Khilji dynasty. He captured the throne of Delhi and held it four months, after which he was defeated and killed by Ghiyath al-Din Tughluq, who founded the Tughlaq dynasty in 1320 in Delhi.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]
[edit]Religion

Khusro Khan was a Dalit (Parwari-Mahar) caste from Gujrat. He converted to Islam from Hinduism at the time of his capture.[9] He was a untouchable in his own religion, but became the first Hindu to sit on the throne of Delhi. It is clear from the writing of Muslim chroniclers that Khusrau Khan had converted back to Hinduism. That the occasion of Sultan Nasir-ud-din’s accession to the throne of Delhi was a moment of joy for the despairing Hindus in the North is given by the following passage:
“In those dreadful days the infidel rites of the Hindus were highly exalted, the dignity and the importance of the Parwárís were increased, and through all the territory of Islám the Hindus rejoiced greatly, boasting that Dehlí had once more come under Hindu rule, and that the Musulmáns had been driven away and dispersed”. (Baranī)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khusro_Khan

Ulugh Khan's ran over act of gujarat was short lived and had no significance

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Jul 2012 12:22

the pre mughal sultanates were also fervent in their desire for jihad and the overthrow of idolators, although it seems to vary from ruler to ruler. the thapar suggestion is that the arabs were less vigorous in these matters than the turks and afghans, but i guess that is all relative

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jul 2012 12:32

Atri wrote:
Murugan wrote:Contrary to general belief, It was MahaRana Pratap who started guerilla warfare, 100 years before Shivaji Maharaj's Ganimi Kawa.
Ghanim-i-Qavvait (गनिम इ क़वैत)

This term for Guerilla warfare technique, which was used and perfected by Marathas, was introduced in Deccan by a person named "Malik Ambar". While the technique itself is very old (Krishna himself was a master of Guerilla warfare, his war against Kaal-Yavana is an excellent example of his genius), it started becoming a common practice in Krishna-Godavari Antarvedi (present day MH, AP, KN) region after Malik Ambar's time. Until advent of Malik Ambar, this technique was more of an exception than rule. Marathas from Seuna Yadava empire were waging traditional styled wars with their neighbors after disintegration of Rashtrakoota and Chalukya Empire.

The Arabic term गनिम-इ-क़वैत (Maneuver of the successful) implied that those who fought by "Koota-Neeti" were always successful. The Arabic word Ganim (successful) is absorbed in Marathi but with the meaning "Enemy".

Maharana Pratap's Guerilla Warfare and Malik Ambar

Legacy

Most important of Pratap Singh's legacy was in the military field - after Haldi-Ghati, he increasingly experimented and perfected guerrilla warfare and light horse tactics. His innovative military strategy ---- use of scorched earth, evacuation of entire populations along potential routes of enemy march, poisoning of wells, use of mountain forts in Aravallis, repeated plunder and devastation of enemy territories along with harassing raids on enemy baggage, communications and supply lines --- helped him recapture most of Mewar (except Chittor) by time of his death and enabled him to successfully tackled vastly stronger armies of Akbar.

Harassing warfare perfected by Pratap Singh would in due course was adopted by Malik Ambar of Ahmednagar [1] who taught and deployed local Marathas to fight invading Mughal armies, thus preparing them for future warfare against Mughals. Though Pratap Singh failed to overcome Mughals in his lifetime, indirectly and in long run, his military techniques paved way for downfall of Mughal empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharana_Pratap

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jul 2012 13:57

There were always organized efforts in Bharat to throw out invaders. They may be Greeks, Huns, Pahlavs, Arabs, Turks or Europeans

This gives background to efforts before Turks got stronghold in India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rajasthan

The Battle of Rajasthan

When Emir Junaid invaded Rajasthan with his forces, Gurjara Pratihara ruler Nagabhata I made an alliance with the Chalukya governor of Lata, Jayasimha Varman, who was a brother of King Vikramaditya II. In response Jayasimha Varman sent his son Avanijanashraya Pulakesi to support Nagabhata I.
[edit]Aftermath

Junaid's successor Tamim bin Zaid al-Utbi organized a fresh campaigns against Rajasthan but failed to hold any territories there. He would be further pushed across River Indus by the combined forces of the King of Kannauj, Yaso Varman C.E. thus limiting the Arabs to the territory of Sindh across River Indus.

In the words of the Arab chronicler Suleiman, “a place of refuge to which the Muslims might flee was not to be found.” The Arabs crossed over to the other side of the River Indus, abandoning all their lands to the victorious Indian kings.

Equipment and resources

n the Gwalior inscription it is recorded that Nagabhata “crushed the large army of the powerful Mlechcha king.” This large army consisted of cavalry, infantry, siege artillery, and probably a force of camels. Since Tamin was a new governor he had a force of Syrian cavalry from Damascus, local Arab contingents, converted Hindus of Sindh, and foreign mercenaries like the Turks. All together the invading army have had anywhere between 30,000-40,000 men. In comparison the Rajputs had only 5000-6,000 cavalry.
The Arab chronicler Suleiman describes the army of the Imperial Gurjara Pratiharas as it stood in 851 CE; The king of Gurjars maintains numerous forces and no other Indian prince has so fine a cavalry. He is unfriendly to the Arabs, still he acknowledges that the king of the Arabs is the greatest of kings. Among the princes of India there is no greater foe of the Islamic faith than he. He has got riches, and his camels and horses are numerous.[3]
But at the time of the Battle of Rajasthan the Gurjar Pratihars[4] had only just risen to power. In fact Nagabhatta was their first prominent ruler. But the composition of his army, which was predominantly cavalry, is clear from the description. There are other anecdotal references to the Indian kings and commanders riding elephants to have a clear view of the battlefield. The infantry stood behind the elephants and the cavalry formed the wings and advanced guard.

The Arabs in Sindh took a long time to recover from their defeat. In the early 9th Century the governor Bashar attempted an invasion of India but was defeated. Even a naval expedition sent by the Caliphs was defeated by the Saindhava clan of Kathiawar. After this the Arab chroniclers admit that the Caliph Mahdi, “gave up the project of conquering any part of India'.”

The Arabs in Sindh lost all power and broke up into two warring Shia states of Mansurah and Multan, both of which paid tribute to the Gurjara Pratiharas. The local resistance in Sindh, which had not yet died out and was inspired by the victories of their Rajput neighbors manifested itself when the foreign rulers were overthrown and Sindh came under its own Muslim Rajputs dynasties like the Soomras and Sammas.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jul 2012 14:33

This is not taught in the GoI textbooks.

Decline of Islamic Rule in Indian Subcontinent

Maratha Empire, 1758 (shown here in orange) was ruling much of India following the decline of Mughals. The Marathas remained the dominant power in the subcontinent before the arrival of British rule.

The decline of Islamic rule in Indian Subcontinent(India,Pakistan and Bangladesh) started most notable after Chhatrapati Shivaji rebellion against all foreign rule(Muslims and Europeans), he declared "Hindu Swarajya"(Self Rule of Hindus) and started assaulting the mighty Mughal Empire, such was the impact of Shivaji on the Mughal Empire decline that he was called the "Attila The Hun Of South Asia" by many contemporary european accounts. Lawlessness prevails in Mughal Empire, Shivaji sacked the most richest port of Mughal Empire Surat twice in 1663 and 1674. [31].

While comparing great Mughal Emperor Akbar with Shivaji in terms of Millitary capability, Vincent Arthur Smith noticed that Shivaji was a great warrior on the other hand Akbar was more of an administrator and like his great grandson Aurangzeb his presence would have not stopped Mughal Empire decline either.[32]. Maratha War of Independence proved disastrous for Mughal Empire as well as for Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb the long and futile war bankrupted one of the most powerful empire of world .

Mountstart Elphinstone term this period a demoralising period for Mussalmans as many of them have lost will to fight against the Maratha Empire for too long.[33]. Maratha Empire started to extend their empire defeating Mughal Empire in number of battles. Baji Rao I carried raid as far as Delhi in 1737 defeating Mughal General Amir Khan in Delhi.[34].The invasion of Nadir Shah on Delhi in 1739 came two years after Maratha Invasion of Delhi in 1737 which shows that once Powerful Mughal Empire was in complete shambles even before Nadir Shah invaded Delhi. In 1740s Maratha Empire annexed Bengal,Bihar and Orissa.[35]. In 1758 Maratha Empire after expelling Timur Shah Durrani son of Ahmad Shah Durrani and his commander in chief Jahan Khan from Lahore they expanded their Empire all the way upto Peshawar.[36]. Ahmad Shah Abdali after assessing the power of Maratha decided to make alliances with other Muslim Powers in order to confront Powerful Maratha Empire. By showing the fear of Maratha Empire extending into Afghanistan and into other Muslim countries Durrani enlisted two major Indian allies, Nawab Shuja-ud-daulah of Oudh and Afghan Rohilla Chief Najib-Ud-Daulah, on the other hand Maratha empire infamous for their plundering and looting nature were refused support by Hindu Powers such as Rajputs, Jats and Sikhs.[37].

The defeat in Third Battle of Panipat from the coalition forces of Durrani Empire, Rohillas, Nawab of Oudh was a major setback but it didnt demolished Maratha , by 1770 Maratha Empire once again regained control of Delhi the imperial capital of Hindustan and nominated their own Mughal Nominee to the post of Mughal Emperor.[38]. Rohilla Chief Najib-Ud-Daulah son Zabita Khan accepted the Maratha Suzerainty , the Afghan raids were also put to halt after Ahmad Shah Abdali fell Ill. For next 30 years Maratha ruled Delhi untill British Empire defeated Maratha empire decisively in Second Anglo-Maratha War . Maratha Army were defeated at Assaye, Aligarh, Farrukhabad and finally in Delhi and then in Patiala by British.[39]. Hence by 1803 almost whole of Modern day India and Bangladesh came under British Empire, though Maratha ruled large part of western India till 1818 when Third Anglo Maratha War was fought which ended Maratha Empire completely.

In north west India (now Pakistan) Sikhs developed themselves into a powerful force under their great leader Maharaja Ranjit Singh. By 1801 Ranjit Singh captured Lahore and threw off the Afghan yoke from North West India.[40]. In Afghanistan Zaman Shah Durrani was defeated by powerful Barakzai Chief Fateh Khan who appointed Mahmud Shah Durrani as the new ruler of Afghanistan and appointed himself as Wazir of Afghanistan.[41]. Sikhs however were now more superior to afghans and started to annex afghan provinces. The biggest victory of Sikh Empire over Durrani Empire came in Battle of Attock fought in 1813 between Sikh Empire commander in chief Dewan Mokham Chand who was a Hindu Khatri and was 70 years old at the time of battle and wazir of Afghanistan Fateh Khan and his younger brother Dost Mohammad Khan, Afghans were routed by Sikh army , Afghans lost over 9,000 soldiers in this battle. Dost Mohammad was seriously injured whereas his brother Wazir Fateh Khan fled back to Kabul fearing that his brother is dead.[42]. In 1818 Misr Diwan Chand another Famous Hindu general of Ranjit Singh slaughtered Afghans and Muslims in trading city of Multan killing Afghan governor Nawab Muzzafar Khan and five of his sons in the Siege of Multan.[43].

In 1819 the last Indian Province of Kashmir was freed from Muslim rulers by Misr Diwan Chand who registered another crushing victory over weak afghan General Jabbar Khan.[44]. Koh-i-Noor diamond was also freed from Muslim occupation by Maharaja Ranjit Singh in 1814. In 1823 Sikh Army routed Dost Mohammad Khan the Sultan of Afghanistan and his brother Azim Khan at Naushera(Near Peshawar). By 1834 Sikh Empire extended their Empire upto Khyber Pass thus recovering whole of Indian Subcontinent from Islamic Rule.Hari Singh Nalwa the Sikh general remained the governor of Khyber Agency till his death in 1837 , he consolidated Sikh hold in tribal provinces. The northernmost Indian territories of Gilgit, Baltistan and Ladakh was annexed by Dogra Rajput General Zorawar Singh between 1831-1840.[45]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 14:47

indeed . a quick reading of the textbooks would imagine bahadur shah zafar was the sartaj of India whose hukumat ran from trivandrum upto tezpur and from leh to dwaraka

he would have a hard time getting a couple of free goats from a bazar in chandni chowk!

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 18 Jul 2012 15:38

Like a poet of the time lamented...
Mehaz reh gayee itni jagirdaari, Kahin ek khet, kahin ek kayari

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jul 2012 15:41

It was never easy for Invaders and Turks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokhadaji_Gohil

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 18 Jul 2012 16:17

In the school textbooks the decline of the Mughals is mentioned briefly but the rise of the Marathas, sans a brief section on Shivaji, is not mentioned. Similarly there were WTF moments like "Errrr...... wasn't Kingdom of XYZ already conquered by Iltumish. How did it get to fighting another Sultanate scion 30 yrs later?".

A history munshi with broad centrist leanings once observed that the the omission of Marathas (and other pet peeves) in school textbooks is not *entirely* based on Commie anti-Hindu sentiment and Marxist reading of History. On the Muslim side, Balban was ultimately more bad-a$$ than Alauddin Khilji and Firuz Tughlaq's administrative and social policies were notable (considering the period)..... but you don't hear about that in the school history books. Also, if anti-Indic fever was the prime mover, then there would have been a twist on the Pallava sack of Vatapi or the tripartite struggle of Pala-Pratihara-Rashtrakuta which made a dog's breakfast of N. India. The centuries long Pandya-Chola-Chera struggle or the final Pandy Civil War or the Hoysala-Yadav wars or the blitz of my beloved state by the ancestors of Humble Farmercould also be milked/twisted.

The stress is apparently "broad strokes on major themes of history", when it comes to school level. The idea is - in the big picture, if the life/actions/contributions of the person or dynasty in question was deemed to be just a blip in the radar..... it is "set aside for later". That's why you learn about Vijayanagar and Cholas and Pallavas but not about Cheras (Shoot! We Mallus were useless even then!

). That is why Ashoka's Kalinga campaign is stressed but not the Sikh campaigns in the NWFP or Kanishka's campaign in Western China. Also, we did not learn about the Bengal Shahs and the Jaunpur Sultans too right? When it comes to a personality like Sher Shah Suri, stress was on the administrative reforms and the GT Road and not on his brilliant military campaigns.

However, when it comes to B.A./M.A. level history, you do learn about Marathas watering their horses at the Indus and Shah Alam II under a dirty torn umbrella and Sher Shah Suri turning into a human torch and Bahadur Shah eating 30 plantains a day with a bowl of ghee....
Yet, the commie strains are all too common (prevalent maybe)..... and the experienced reader can make them out.

JMTC

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Jul 2012 16:20

i forget the exact words but... something like this...

huzoorat i shah alam
dilli se palam

was a common refrain during the decline of the mughal empire, and don't forget that when nadir shah sacked delhi, he blinded the emperor and ran riot through lal qila

Adrija · Post by **Adrija** » 18 Jul 2012 17:30

If we are listing the resistance to the Islamic invaders, may I add the Battle of Bahraich to Sh Virendar's list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Sukhdeo

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 18:43

sher shah suri strikes me as a more 'son of the soil type' and 'self made man' rather than having things handed to him by birth or accident. I suppose founder CxOs are always of that type.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 18 Jul 2012 18:54

Singha wrote:sher shah suri strikes me as a more 'son of the soil type' and 'self made man' rather than having things handed to him by birth or accident. I suppose founder CxOs are always of that type.

Sher Shah Sur’s name is associated in our textbooks with the Grand Trunk Road from Peshawar to Dacca, with caravanserais, and several other schemes of public welfare. It is true that he was not a habitual persecutor of Hindus before he became the emperor at Delhi. But he did not betray Islam when he became the supreme ruler. The test came at Raisen in 1543 AD. Shaykh Nurul Haq records in Zubdat-ul-Tawãrîkh as follows: “In the year 950 H., Puranmal held occupation of the fort of Raisen… He had 1000 women in his harem… and amongst them several Musulmanis whom he made to dance before him. Sher Khan with Musulman indignation resolved to conquer the fort. After he had been some time engaged in investing it, an accommodation was proposed and it was finally agreed that Puranmal with his family and children and 4000 Rajputs of note should be allowed to leave the fort unmolested. Several men learned in the law (of Islam) gave it as their opinion that they should all be slain, notwithstanding the solemn engagement which had been entered into. Consequently, the whole army, with the elephants, surrounded Puranmal’s encampment. The Rajputs fought with desperate bravery and after killing their women and children and burning them, they rushed to battle and were annihilated to a man.”

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/siii/ch7.htm

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jul 2012 19:04

I think we need a separate thread for all types of rulers, religion, culture, etc.. into our lands. example: x-tian history. http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/ ... 649258.ece

?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jul 2012 19:56

Singha wrote:1. did the pre-Mughal sultanate and its converts/imports show more signs of accepting and being absorbed into the indic culture than he mughals. i am referring to the afghan tribes that settled in UP, Bihar, Bengal belt before the mughals arrived on the scene. were they less conscious of religion and fair > darkie skin colour issues? some of these like sher shah suri seemed to be sworn enemies of the mughals.

2. Buddhism is often "blamed" for injecting India into a pacifist and non-interventionary meditative phase which set us up for exploitation and invasion later when the hawks and have-nots were ready to pounce. yet the same buddhism that migrated to tibet did not have any issue with the tibetans, chinese (partly buddhist), mongols(partly buddhist), ASEAN region fighting major and bloody wars of pillage and conquest. was the "vajrayana" buddhism of north and east asia somehow different than the buddhism in India?

In a rush between lectures : so briefly, a hint is seen in the founder of the Tibetan version of Buddhism being most likely a refugee Afghan/Western-Indian Buddhist [or a Bengalee who had become part of the general trend of wandering Buddhist students/aspiring monks who travelled along the Buddhist monasterical networks spreading out all the way from Bengal to CAR].

The guy most likely went to Tibet in the 800's - and if from the western parts, coming from the thick of the Islamic initial dance on Indian soil. If one looks through the Tibetan kalachakra literature, one easily identifies the hostility and enmity encoded in the form of future predictions - against Islamism.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jul 2012 19:59

The influential names in Tibetan/Chinese Buddhism, like the Bengalee Dipankar [from Vikramsheela in North-central Bengal] indicate that those among the Buddhists of Vajrayana in the eastern parts who did not compromise with Islamism - went across the mountains.

This would be a clear filtering process by which non-compromisers would get concentrated in the Tibetan plateau while the compromisers and convertees would stay back. [I always joked that Buddhist prohibition of meat eating lost the Bengalees to Islam!]

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 18 Jul 2012 20:13

Interesting snippet about Sher Shah Suri...... When he was a young fata chappal officer/soldier he fled from an irate master to Babur's camp where he served for a while. One day among the multitude of nobles and assorted toadies attending the court, Babur spotted Sher Shah Suri who was standing in an obscure corner. He called Humayun to his side and said (something of this sort) - "Watch out for that young man, Though he carries no symbols or authority or is clad in fine robes I can see the marks of greatness on his face. He is destined to rule men and he will be a threat to us." Before Humayun could act on his Dad's prescience Sher Shah was warned of the moves against him. He fled again to fight another day..... and if not for that freak accident that got him the history of India might have been quite different.

Akbar also had a hard early life.... born to the life of a refuge at the mercy of a heathen ruler, reportedly on a woolen sack they used to cover horses in winter. It later became customary to use this kind of sack at every royal Mughal delivery. As a kid he was captured by is uncle Kamran, a real Paki type. Once when Kamran's fort was besieged by Humayun's forces and bombarded, he perched little Akbar on the battlement so that Humayun would cease bombardment....

Dunno how much is true and how much is embellishment....

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jul 2012 20:17

Anand K: Welcome back. Where is Airavat?

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 18 Jul 2012 21:33

The Kalachakra and Islam; I remember Johann (?) posting some writings by this Gora Prof way back in the day. It was during a discussion on how the people of those days grokked Islamic invasions from a religious angle.... wasn't it?

I think it was one of the earliest instances of Semitic millenarian and Black-White readings creeping into Eastern faiths. Ayyavazhi, Mara-the-enticer and the Brahmakumari "rapture" all came later right? Interesting that Buddhists , albeit an obscure branch, developed this kind of thought..... one would have expected the native religious thinkers who resided in Rajputs lands/Kashmir/Shahiya lands/etc to come up with something like this. I mean, a high volume of such thought rather than the odd poems/biography....

PS: Hi Shaurya, long time no see. It's been 5 years since I "retired" snd thought its about time i participate again in certain threads. But mainly I am here to seek admission into LMU.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jul 2012 03:23

Anand K wrote:In the school textbooks the decline of the Mughals is mentioned briefly but the rise of the Marathas, sans a brief section on Shivaji, is not mentioned. Similarly there were WTF moments like "Errrr...... wasn't Kingdom of XYZ already conquered by Iltumish. How did it get to fighting another Sultanate scion 30 yrs later?".

A history munshi with broad centrist leanings once observed that the the omission of Marathas (and other pet peeves) in school textbooks is not *entirely* based on Commie anti-Hindu sentiment and Marxist reading of History. On the Muslim side, Balban was ultimately more bad-a$$ than Alauddin Khilji and Firuz Tughlaq's administrative and social policies were notable (considering the period)..... but you don't hear about that in the school history books. Also, if anti-Indic fever was the prime mover, then there would have been a twist on the Pallava sack of Vatapi or the tripartite struggle of Pala-Pratihara-Rashtrakuta which made a dog's breakfast of N. India. The centuries long Pandya-Chola-Chera struggle or the final Pandy Civil War or the Hoysala-Yadav wars or the blitz of my beloved state by the ancestors of Humble Farmercould also be milked/twisted.

The stress is apparently "broad strokes on major themes of history", when it comes to school level. The idea is - in the big picture, if the life/actions/contributions of the person or dynasty in question was deemed to be just a blip in the radar..... it is "set aside for later". That's why you learn about Vijayanagar and Cholas and Pallavas but not about Cheras (Shoot! We Mallus were useless even then! ). That is why Ashoka's Kalinga campaign is stressed but not the Sikh campaigns in the NWFP or Kanishka's campaign in Western China. Also, we did not learn about the Bengal Shahs and the Jaunpur Sultans too right? When it comes to a personality like Sher Shah Suri, stress was on the administrative reforms and the GT Road and not on his brilliant military campaigns.

However, when it comes to B.A./M.A. level history, you do learn about Marathas watering their horses at the Indus and Shah Alam II under a dirty torn umbrella and Sher Shah Suri turning into a human torch and Bahadur Shah eating 30 plantains a day with a bowl of ghee....
Yet, the commie strains are all too common (prevalent maybe)..... and the experienced reader can make them out.

JMTC

An alternative simple explanation would be to avoid all incidents that would need detailing or provide clues/hints to atrocities/violence and those that can be fixed or connected to currently existing identities.

The second point is that those pointers about the tripartite dog-bowlification of North or Vatapi sack - are dependent on how our regime historians have reconstructed the history for us. They are alluded to definitely [feudal internecine wars as supposedly leading to weakness of the north - in which vacant space the Islamic holiday makers and peaceful pastoralists sort of drifted in and were welcomed].

We cannot be certain based on entirely narrative or fragmentary epigraphic claims that dogs-mealification was really carried out - based on the same logic used by historians to disclaim atrocities/deceline under Islamic attack/rule.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jul 2012 03:46

Singha wrote:1. did the pre-Mughal sultanate and its converts/imports show more signs of accepting and being absorbed into the indic culture than he mughals. i am referring to the afghan tribes that settled in UP, Bihar, Bengal belt before the mughals arrived on the scene. were they less conscious of religion and fair > darkie skin colour issues? some of these like sher shah suri seemed to be sworn enemies of the mughals.

I replied to [2.] earlier, so taking up (1).

Complicated and no clear picture. They showed greater tactical tolerance of regional Hindu elements - to enlist and use local Hindu ruling elite in keeping the remaining Hindu non-elite down. For example not Kalapahar who converted, but Rajah Ganesh -"Rai Kans", originally a chieftain from Saatgarah (seven forts) who rose in Gaur-Sultanate admin. He remained a Hindu (although his wife rejected him considering him converted and prevented him entering his original estate - or all this a nice story and in fact perhaps showed Ganesh's consideration for the social aspects and staying away from father-land), but is alleged to have entered into a relationship with the widow of the sitting Sultan, moving into the sultans harem and taking it over and ruling from Gaur, even issuing coins in his name. His son Jadu fell in love with Asmaan-tara, a Persian/Turkic beauty in Gaur and was forced to convert to marry him.

Typically the association of such Hindu elite with Afghans/Turks made them socially outcaste even though perhaps they were feared and tolerated. Many ultimately converted - and most "Muslim ashraaf" hail from converted ruling Hindu elite, at least as far as I know from my links in GV. Houses I know, even acknowledged to me how many gens ago they converted or which illustrious "Hindu" name they were under before.

Would we call this adaptation from the Turko-Afghan side?

They patronized in some instances local Hindu culture, like Hussein Shah of Gaur [near contemporary of Chaitanya], but this should be seen in the backdrop of contests with other neighbouring sultans [like Jaunpurs' Sharqis versus Gaus sultans, especially from the period following Kaikobad] and Delhi. These were tactical alliances to gain local influence - and evenw ithin that the Turks often tripped. one of the factors that broke down the Turko-Afghan alliances with Hindu elite was the freedom the Turko-Afghans often seemed to have felt in appropriating the widows or daughters [in some cases wives] of their close Hindu allies. One such incident happened with Isha Khans' son [Isha Khan was the supposdly iconic leader of the Turko-Afghan+Hindu-Rajahs alliance against Akbar, until his death].

Even in Hussein Shah's supposedly favourable regime, Chaitanya led a evening torchlight protest march against the ruling Qazi of Navadwip - for the latter's repression on Hindu practice/culture. This story is usually skipped in the "peaceful/other-worldly" version of Chaitanya in our official as well as popular Gaudya Vaishnava literature.

From my own family traditions, I know that even though some branches collaborated, these branches were considered virtually "Muslim" [perhaps the same thing happened with the family of Tagore, for example, and perhaps a reason originally for their shift from the Kusha village in Barddhaman district of Bengal and an ancestor taking up servicing as purohita at one of the then upcoming Calcutta's ghaats and starting stevedory contractorship with Brits for a living. This memory of association with Islamic regimes, remained in allusions and sometime open projections by members of the clan - and might have predisposed Rabindranath and his ancestor towards the Brahmo diversion, as well as a well discernible sympathy for the "Islamic" in his writings]. Such "Muslim" proximal Hindus found it very difficult to get their kids married.

I have seen more adaptation by sections of Hindu elite of Afghan-Turkic elements than the other way around.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 19 Jul 2012 09:40

How things fall

A Small Story

The Weight of a Snowflake

Not too long ago in a place not too far away, a field mouse asked a wise old owl what is the weight of a snowflake. "Why nothing more than nothing," answered the owl.

The mouse went on to tell the owl about the time he was resting on a branch in a fir tree, counting each snowflake until the number was exactly 3 million, 471 thousand, 952. Then with the settling of the very next flake—crack. The branch suddenly snapped, tumbling mouse and snow to the ground. "Humph …Such was the weight of nothing," said the mouse.

So the next time you think your contributions, your acts of charity, your works for justice, your gifts of love, and your talents are nothing, or that they are small in comparison to those of others, remember that when one is added to another, and then to another and so forth, great things can happen from nothing. In the same way, what seems to be ordinary can be transformed into something extraordinary with just a little extra nothing.

Your mission is to create great things once again out of nothingness, to transform the ordinary into the extraordinary.

~ Author Unknown

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 19 Jul 2012 09:48

Singha wrote:
1. did the pre-Mughal sultanate and its converts/imports show more signs of accepting and being absorbed into the indic culture than he mughals. i am referring to the afghan tribes that settled in UP, Bihar, Bengal belt before the mughals arrived on the scene.

Turks, Sultanate, Afghans Tribes remained Indic, Till
1st Wave - M A Jinnah
2nd Wave - Ayatollah Khomeini/Saddam Hussein/Col Gaddafi/Soyabin Laden became icons of Indian Muslims.

Telling by experience. Spent my childhood with different types of muslims, Have done business with UP, Punjabi, Marathi, Gujarati, South Indian muslims for 20 years.

Things are waning now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2012 10:41

in my workplace I am seeing open requests by people for rooms where they can perform daily namaz now...this trend started in ITvity workplaces around the middle of last decade. as most places lack a prayer room, usually the rooms meant for sleepovers with beds are appropriated for this. sometimes even conf rooms are comandeered...I wandered into a seemingly empty room to make a call and a girl was there on a mat in the corner.
a contrarian explanation could be maybe few yrs ago there were less muslims in the itvity workplace so it was not seen then.

wrt to school history textbooks focussing on major events only and BA History textbooks being more complete, remember 99% of people will read all their history in school and will not go for BA history or even read up the right books on their own .... so if "shaping" the younger gen is the idea, school books are it for good or bad.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 19 Jul 2012 10:51

Singha wrote:in my workplace I am seeing open requests by people for rooms where they can perform daily namaz now...this trend started in ITvity workplaces around the middle of last decade.

This was a big nuisance in my work place, but I now see it is completely stopped. Folks not only misused the conference rooms, but even made the whole men's room flooded with water. Washing the legs it seems is a must, and people happily went to the men's room and washed their feet. The result puddles of water on the floor.

Looks like company clearly sent out a note that all religious activity should happen out side the door. The excepetions seems to be the christmas trees and the flower art (pookalam) which folks from the communist swargarajyam put up during Onam.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 19 Jul 2012 11:07

Singha wrote:in my workplace I am seeing open requests by people for rooms where they can perform daily namaz now...this trend started in ITvity workplaces around the middle of last decade. as most places lack a prayer room, usually the rooms meant for sleepovers with beds are appropriated for this. sometimes even conf rooms are comandeered...I wandered into a seemingly empty room to make a call and a girl was there on a mat in the corner.
a contrarian explanation could be maybe few yrs ago there were less muslims in the itvity workplace so it was not seen then.

wrt to school history textbooks focussing on major events only and BA History textbooks being more complete, remember 99% of people will read all their history in school and will not go for BA history or even read up the right books on their own .... so if "shaping" the younger gen is the idea, school books are it for good or bad.

A Bada Namaaz once a week was started in Mumbai blocking traffic and creating a hell of difficulties for others non-namaazee. Bal Thackarey asked hindu to offer Maha Aarati where large numbers of hindus will come and offer a big time aarti once a week. The sickular rulers stood up and noted and stopped both the Namaz and Aarti. Forever.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 19 Jul 2012 11:09

In my office, there are few

1) One Namazee quotes bhagvad gita for making his point !!

2) The other one quote Secularism to get a namaaz break everyday!

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 19 Jul 2012 13:19

This is a very well composed video. I am proud to be an Indian. My soul and every drop of blood in my body is dedicated to our civilization.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 19 Jul 2012 14:07

ShauryaT wrote:Anand K: Welcome back. Where is Airavat?

Airavat or peter haven't been here since ages

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 19 Jul 2012 22:26

Lalmullah ji mentioned this on this thread.

From My defeat Sar-e Pul by Babur the Founder of Mughal Dynasty in BaburNama.

April 1501

..[As described earlier] the front of our centre was exposed. The enemy attacked us front and rear, raining arrows on us. Ayug Begchik's Mughal Army, which had joined us, was useless in combat. It actually began unhorsing and plundering our men. This is always the was with those ill-omened Mughals! If they win, they grab the booty. If they lose, they unhorse and pilfer there own side!

History sure has a curious way.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 27 Jul 2012 19:58

This thread is great treasure of information. I have a request to senior rakshaks. Can some one please add some details on the slave trade done by mughals and other invaders. I want to understand the details of each conquest and how many men women & children were take away (and taken where?) also if we can touch on how these people survived in these foreign lands and were they possible to free their next generations. Any light on human aspect would be appreciated.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2012 20:13

Brad ji, can you look up the wiki page on "slavery in India"? Most of the material [before the child-debt-bondage-modern India bit] was put up by me so I can vouch for the sources. Look at the Muslim and Mughal period references. There is a section on CAR slave trade and export from India. The paper reference for that section should partially answer your questions about next gen/manumission/etc.

Campaign wise lists can be made up. Yes we can do that. For example, the sindh chronicles gives the figure of 700 "royal/aristocratic" or the "most beautiful high-born" women enslaved and taken to Baghdad after the first successful campaign at Deval. There is a hint that many were perhaps raped on the way. Overall figures from the first campaign range from 6000 -15,000 from the one year campaign.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 27 Jul 2012 22:32

Thanks B'ji. That wiki page is treasure of information. I am googling those books for further reading. I think it would be really great to get some human perspective on those unfortunate souls who we could not save.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 27 Jul 2012 23:22

Also look at origins of the Roma and how they ended up in Europe.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 28 Jul 2012 20:06

Supratik ji, I am not great with history so forgive me if I have it wrong. All these years my understanding is that Roma migration was pretty much voluntary (perhaps triggered by either circumstances or opportunities ) This to my mind is different from slavery. Where Men Women and Children were not just taken to alien lands. They were seprated from their families sold as commodities to work on farms, construction labor, mercenery armies for men, concubines, domestic servants, farm labor for women and god know what they did with children. What would be a great learning experience for us is to least understand what these unfortunate souls went thro in their life time

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2012 05:41

ManuT wrote:Lalmullah ji mentioned this on this thread.

From My defeat Sar-e Pul by Babur the Founder of Mughal Dynasty in BaburNama.

April 1501

..[As described earlier] the front of our centre was exposed. The enemy attacked us front and rear, raining arrows on us. Ayug Begchik's Mughal Army, which had joined us, was useless in combat. It actually began unhorsing and plundering our men. This is always the was with those ill-omened Mughals! If they win, they grab the booty. If they lose, they unhorse and pilfer there own side!
History sure has a curious way.

a fitting irony that the Chagtai Turks came to be known as Moghuls!!!

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 29 Jul 2012 23:17

Brad, you can research it. There are a few theories about Roma migration. What is certain is that they are of Indian origin and since they follow Hindu purity laws are of Hindu origin. Coming back to their migration they appear in the middle east after establishment of Muslim rule in North India. The question is why would a huge number of Hindus move westward during that time. We are pretty sure there were no devastating natural causes. So it is likely that the migration was forced either as slaves or as some theorize after their defeat at the hands of Muslim armies sections of the population dispersed from the North-West.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 31 Jul 2012 17:40

Sorry OT so took it to Off topic thread.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 05 Aug 2012 02:36

I am trying to read a translation of the Jahangirnama by Wheeler Thackston. Most of it is boring, so read only about 25% with many skipped pages. There are repeated mentions of eunuchs as being given as gifts. Trustyworthy eununches are highly praised. Ofcourse whenever a village is destroyed, they kill all the males, while the women folk are appropriated. There are repeated mentions of "hindu dogs". Lets just say the sickulars will be made "unhappy" if normal Indians start reading it in its entirety. Ofcourse, selective snippets can be made to paint a very different picture. (like he was superstitious and would consult astrologers. There is an event where he talks to a sanyasi). He makes pages and pages of exotic animals brought (and bought) to him. Yes, he also seems to started to have the tradition of mughal sultan's women folk not marrying ever.

As Brihaspati garu, it is all about control of women. One incident goes like this. A town around Ahmedabad was partially converted forcibly by Akbar's (yes the super secular, "king of kings") general. Jahangir visits the place. He observes that the partially converted still follow many hindu customs. He makes a sniding remark about them still following sati. But what really riles him is this. The hindus and the forcibly converted still intermarry and give each other the women folk. He was happy with the hindus giving women to the converted. But he puts paid to the practice of the converted giving women to hindus.

There are repeated reports of revolts in almost all in his subahs. Usual operaranda is this, that local emperor's goon will try to crush. If he succeeds, he will be raised in stature. Many instances of this failure. Then emperor replaces him with another, with an ever larger army from Jahangir. It was definitely not a time of peace as is being said to be talked in the books. Also an interesting thing is, a person who comes to his court has to take specific approval from Jahangir to get back to his place. This was often used as a pressure point as that person's safety guarantees his kin's behavior.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2012 06:10

One version of Jahangirnama:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7024632M ... Jahangueir