Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Rakesh]

Click on link below to view the video...

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1814162347843375577 ---> Delhi: Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal AP Singh says, "...Aatmaribharta is what we are riding on...But this aatmaribharta cannot be at the cost of nation's defence."

[bharathp]

Remember this when we blame Air HQ for still keeping the MRFA alive. Especially read the Print article.

---

Rakesh ji,

this looks like a widespread supply chain issue for all GE engines.. not just bharat specific. so while this may be used as an excuse by import pasands, it does not look like an india specific move by massa or some deep state.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 024-04-23/

[Rakesh]

Remember this when we blame Air HQ for still keeping the MRFA alive. Especially read the Print article.

---

Rakesh ji,

this looks like a widespread supply chain issue for all GE engines.. not just bharat specific. so while this may be used as an excuse by import pasands, it does not look like an india specific move by massa or some deep state.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 024-04-23/

Saar, this is not about GE’s delivery delays…but HAL agreeing to a production schedule of one to two F404 turbofans per month. At this rate, how will we address the squadron shortage in the IAF? Are we planning to adopt the same delivery schedule for the second tranche of 97 Mk1As? And we have not even signed the order for the second tranche!

If we are not adding - at minimum - 2 squadrons of Tejas variants (Mk1A or Mk2) a year, how do you kill the MRFA acquisition? What is the argument?

Rather than address the squadron shortage, this delay is only adding fuel to the fire to acquire 114 MRFA. Not that the MRFA will address the shortage either. What a pooch screw up this is.

[srai]

Get the 97 Mk1A contract signed. Everything else around its production will align itself over time.

[la.khan]

Remember this when we blame Air HQ for still keeping the MRFA alive. Especially read the Print article.

Amid delays, HAL now aiming to deliver first LCA Mark 1A by August 15; GE engine supplies to start by September
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 712114611/
12 July 2024

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1814161874755187096 ---> GE is supposed to deliver engines at the rate which HAL is supposed to deliver aircraft (16/year), according to the terms of contract signed in August 2021 for 99 engines. However, it is learnt that GE has failed to deliver even a single engine to HAL.

IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
https://theprint.in/defence/iafs-plans- ... y/2180271/
19 July 2024

Disappointing, to say the least As a stop gap measure, why can't we build/assemble the rest of the jet fighter and leave fitting/assembling the engine for later. As & when GE delivers the engines. Will this work? Is this a viable idea?

But then, I do not know much about manufacturing, much less manufacturing jet fighters. Should I keep my ideas to myself?

[pravula]

Thats normal. All this drama about engines are just that, drama. What do you think happens when an engine replacement happens?

[maitya]

<snip>
IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
https://theprint.in/defence/iafs-plans- ... y/2180271/
19 July 2024

Hang on, something is seriously not adding up - from the The Print article:

...
GE is supposed to deliver engines at the rate which HAL is supposed to deliver the aircraft – 16 each financial year, according to the terms of contract. However, it is learnt that GE has failed to deliver even a single engine to the state-run HAL.
...

If so (i.e. GE is only going to deliver 16 engines/year), how was HAL planning to deliver 24 aircrafts/year from 2025-26 onwards - the whole rational of building the 3rd line in Nashik is to accelerate production from 16 to 24 aircrafts/year.
With only 16 engines/year, how on earth 24 platforms/year being planned to deliver?

Also, the 2021-contract is for 99 engines - if 16 engines/year planned by the time all 83 platforms would have got delivered, there would have been 12-16 odd engines still left to be delivered (which presumably would go towards building the Sqn reserves).
That means, the first lot of Sqns would have to operate without any Sqn reserves until atleast all 83 platforms have got delivered (good 4-5 years, plus a few more months).
Rookie planning error ... but I refuse to believe that is actually the issue here.

So, I think it's pure DDM at play here ... I think this "16 engine/Fin Year" is nothing but a result of fertile imagination of the DDM.
Most probably it's more likely, 2 engines/mth from 25-26 FY onwards, and was supposed to be 16 engines in 24-25FY, which has now got delayed.

[maitya]

Rakesh ji,

this looks like a widespread supply chain issue for all GE engines.. not just bharat specific. so while this may be used as an excuse by import pasands, it does not look like an india specific move by massa or some deep state.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 024-04-23/

...
If we are not adding - at minimum - 2 squadrons of Tejas variants (Mk1A or Mk2) a year, how do you kill the MRFA acquisition? What is the argument?
...

Rakeshji, I seriously doubt IAF has wherewithal to stand-up 2 sqns/year, ground up - 1 sqn/year maybe, but anything beyond that would be a stretch.
Ofcourse, that doesn't mean, the production-rate has to aim at anything lower than what is currently planned ie 24/year (or maybe even 28/year).

Also on a related note, not sure just where will HAL accommodate building the Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF etc TDs and PVs, in parallel to MK1A production run. I'm not sure, but I always thought Aircraft Division was earmarked for all such activities (TD and Prototype building etc) - but the current 24/year production plan, includes full capacity utilization of the Aircraft Division, it seems.
(plus it seems they have plans to go for 28/year build rate, from the same set of 3 production lines)

[ashishvikas]

Watch "America to blame for Tejas delay? | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 31" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/UySRt1Ejgu4?si=f5Njz69rKjnNiRqJ

Shiv believes it's GE supply chain problem only.

[Rakesh]

If so (i.e. GE is only going to deliver 16 engines/year), how was HAL planning to deliver 24 aircrafts/year from 2025-26 onwards - the whole rational of building the 3rd line in Nashik is to accelerate production from 16 to 24 aircrafts/year.
With only 16 engines/year, how on earth 24 platforms/year being planned to deliver?

That is a mystery that only HAL knows. See my reply below.

Also, the 2021-contract is for 99 engines - if 16 engines/year planned by the time all 83 platforms would have got delivered, there would have been 12-16 odd engines still left to be delivered (which presumably would go towards building the Sqn reserves).
That means, the first lot of Sqns would have to operate without any Sqn reserves until atleast all 83 platforms have got delivered (good 4-5 years, plus a few more months).
Rookie planning error ... but I refuse to believe that is actually the issue here.

73 Mk1As + 10 Mk1s over a 5 year period works out to ~ 16 aircraft a year. Look at the production delivery schedule from Page 1 of this thread.

Planned Deliveries of the Mk1A Single Seat Fighter - URL, 13 Aug 2021
• 2024: 2 aircraft
• 2025: 8 aircraft
• 2026: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2027: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2028: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2029: 14 - 16 aircraft

So, I think it's pure DDM at play here ... I think this "16 engine/Fin Year" is nothing but a result of fertile imagination of the DDM.
Most probably it's more likely, 2 engines/mth from 25-26 FY onwards, and was supposed to be 16 engines in 24-25FY, which has now got delayed.

GE's own official press release (link below) is stating that they were going to deliver all 99 engines *ONLY* by 2029. And if deliveries were going to start in 2024, then the average yearly delivery works out to 16 per year. Which bright bulb in the MoD agreed to this production schedule?

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Orders 99 F404s for Tejas Light Combat Aircraft
https://www.geaviation.com/press-releas ... ght-combat
19 Aug 2021

Despite all the hoopla about 24 aircraft per year, I doubt there was any serious intention of ever meeting that goal. What is the point of building an airframe and the associated avionics and sensors, if there is no turbofan for the aircraft to fly with? At that point, she is nothing more than a very expensive paperweight.

We don't know what is the actual delivery schedule to HAL will be, but GE itself has claimed that they are ramping up to go to 20 engines per year by 2026 ---> viewtopic.php?p=2611324#p2611324 and this ties into the production schedule above.

[Rakesh]

Rakeshji, I seriously doubt IAF has wherewithal to stand-up 2 sqns/year, ground up - 1 sqn/year maybe, but anything beyond that would be a stretch.
Ofcourse, that doesn't mean, the production-rate has to aim at anything lower than what is currently planned ie 24/year (or maybe even 28/year).

If Air HQ is incapable of standing up two TEJAS squadrons a year, how in the good green earth are we planning to kill the MRFA acquisition?

Even if we do 1 squadron (18 aircraft) a year...it will take 9 years to deliver 180 aircraft (83 + 97) at 20 aircraft/year. And 201 Tejas Mk2s will take 20 years, going by that yardstick. And for the Mk2, let us give the benefit of the doubt that the screwdrivergiri factory for the F414 churns out 20 turbofans per year. That is nearly three decades for 380 aircraft. No wonder AIr HQ still wants the MRFA.

Getting a production rate to churn our 24, 28 or anything higher than that would be pointless, if there is no turbofan to mate them with. Was HAL planning to build airframes and just leave them in a corner somewhere, till the turbofans arrived?

[srai]

^^^
Based on my recollection, an engine change on Tejas is quite straightforward and doesn’t take that long.

If we look at Gripen, its engine can be changed in an hour using simple field jig.

https://x.com/GripenNews/status/696627458938957824



https://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/miljardo ... all/660941



https://www.rumaniamilitary.ro/superavi ... gripen/amp

[Rakesh]

IAF Vice-Chief: Self-reliance not at cost of nation’s defence
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... nce-641371
19 July 2024

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1814467101903511624 --->

Straight talk by IAF Vice Chief.

'Self reliance not at cost of nation's defence'.

Background, supplies of fighters jets are behind schedule. No signs of next generation planes.

[VinodTK]

^^^ Agree with IAF's concern and opinion however; the big elephant in the room is IAF itself because of their delays in testing (of aircraft which are in use by other air forces), shortlisting of vendors, changing of requirements in the middle / last minute.

If the IAF is facing hurdles from the bureaucracy, no one in the IAF wants to step up and say so in public because they fear for their careers, yet they are ready to die for the country in old and outdated aircraft.

[fanne]

The junior and middle level officers are willing to give life up for the nation.The senior up by design (and not wrongly) are in planning and execution, not into fighting (rightly so). Corruption is a reality in all facet of life including xxx. Sadly, some, not all (a vast majority will give up anything for the country - that's why we survive today), are indeed messing up things. That needs to be called out everytime.

The saga of IAF and its planes are sad. It is mixture of misfortune -our lack of industrial capability, non deliverance (or slow deliverance) by DRDO and other labs (R&D), poor private investment, lack of budget, lack of focus on Military industrial complex, lack of intent from up above, poor quality an underdelivence by DPSU (in which forces having lost men etc just on quality have deep mistrust) -Manufacturing capability, then corruption, easier availability of superior foreign equipment (that have been well tested in their respected countries) etc etc. List is long. In this list there is definitely corruption responsible for all of this.

This problem is multi-dimensional. This 10 year govt is trying to fix it, but the change is slow and some decisions do not make sense. The ones concerning R&D. R&D should be separated out from final production run and invested non-stop from begining. LCAMK1A could have been started in 2015 when it was first envisioned (against in 2021)- as an R&D effort (even when engines ToT etc was not finalized, let that be a constraint during production) . Kaveri engine could have been continuously funded and today, perhaps we may have been ready with a deployable version, LCA MK2 was first concepted in 2014/15. As a R&d Project it should have been started then, not in 2020s (even when engines ToT etc was not finalized, let that be a constraint during production), and today we would have a LCA MK2 perhaps completing testing and focus would have shifted to AMCA. Having said that, with AMCA and Tedbf, things are moving faster.

Now why is r&d not forced ahead? There comes the lack of intent or corruption angle. The forces will not commit to that product before hand with a genuine reason that tech will evolve or this can't be the final configuration of what will take 5-10 years to develop. So it is catch 22, even if say mk2 was developed say with F404 with canards and all, it would have been rejected by IAF (and rightly so, as this does not bring much extra over MK1A). One can then have switched to F414 for better version, but in the meantime, unknowns like canards, extended fuselage, control laws etc would have been all tested and lesser variable to test with F414 (perhaps air intake etc.). However lack of confidence on either side, and this path was not taken. IAF would want a F404 MK2 shoved down its throat, the MOD would not want to throw this kind of money lest IAF says it does not meet requirement, DRDO and HAL, happy giving unrealistic deadlines and papering over capability shortcomings. In this, rogue player like a corrupt official, anywhere in this chain has humongous leverage to derail the whole thing.

[bala]

Straight talk by IAF Vice Chief.
'Self reliance not at cost of nation's defence'.

I am having an Issue with an IAF Vice Chief making such a public stmt. A small glitch and he pounces on the system on Cue. These matters need to be discussed in private and resolved therein. I know he made the stmt to put pressure on the politicos and MoD to get more imports into the pipeline. IAF is facing a deficiency of aircrafts (squadron strength). As long as there are no wars, Bharat can cope with such deficiencies. Nothing is perfect anywhere in the world. The Chinese have dubious quality aircraft in large quantities and their leadership is very poor. The neighbor next door does not require the IAF to fight, a few brahmos will take care of them. The transition to indigenous aircrafts is going to be a difficult journey and it requires some patience by leadership at the top. What exactly has the IAF contributed in the indigenous journey other than constant criticism and change in specs at the drop of a hat? They don't have a design team like the Navy. IAF is relunctant to induct HAL helos. Too much stand-off attitude is being displayed by them. I don't doubt their willingness to fight and die for the nation. But the induction of aircrafts of indigenous make is leaving a distate that is not palatable to AAM Indian. Remember the 3-leg cheetah comments from one worthy in IAF for the LCA? Now we have entire squadrons of LCA in the IAF stable.

I have to contrast the Indian Navy and its stellar indigenous record - aircraft carriers, nuclear subramines, full design capability of their ships, etc. They have done an outstanding job policing the seas and pulled of rescue missions to make Bharat proud. The Navy also has imports but it not clamoring for more of them. In fact they support Indian Tapas which was cancelled. They are willing to work with HAL for TEDBF and more. The Navy has taken in the helos from HAL. Surprising the Indian Army is blazing ahead with the helo squadrons from HAL. Where is the IAF in helos?

[SRajesh]

And the most important aspect is he is line to be the next ACM
Wonder what awaits AMCA/ORCA etc
Brochureji will win either way!!

[SRajesh]

or should I say :
Brochureji Tussi Great Ho

[ernest]

The Vice Chief has not said exactly what is being reported by media. His take is nuanced, and we should not panic over that.

Anyways, with the supply cahin problems with GE-F404 enginges, I wonder what will be the impact on HLFT-42 timelines. It was a great initiative from HAL for a low cost solution. Looks like it will have to jostle for scarce resources, and wait for Kaveri to be certified. Greatly appreciate anyone having any inputs on this

[bala]

Defence Mantriji Rajnath Singh is a huge disappointment for such an important post. He should be the one providing public interface to issues in defence not IAF or other heads. It is important that he be ahead of issues and craft an appropriate message. What is the use of such people if they are not aware of things, just attend ceremonies and look important. Keep the status quo and blindly follow what MoD babus want is not leadership.

I am having same problem with other mantrijis in BJP. The economics mantriji Nirmala Sitaraman has not taken any worthwhile economic stance other than status quo. GST rates are too high so is the tax burden on middle class working Indians. Nothing is being done to streamline things. The babucracy in finance dept has laborious procedures, forms and red tape. Nothing is being to reduce the hassles and red tape in the dept. So much can be done to streamline processes, Sanjeev Sanyal says these are easy things to fix. What are the mantrijis doing. Even Indian railways requires wholesale revamp from the collection of decrepit trains and railway stations. There must be a better way to reduce the sloth, unclean stuff, better ticket enforcement other than Railway ticket checkers. So much can be done but on the ground not much is improving. We need to have a blanket rule. 10x everything - that includes the goals for lazy babus in Indian bureaucracy.

[Cain Marko]

Rakeshji, I seriously doubt IAF has wherewithal to stand-up 2 sqns/year, ground up - 1 sqn/year maybe, but anything beyond that would be a stretch.
Ofcourse, that doesn't mean, the production-rate has to aim at anything lower than what is currently planned ie 24/year (or maybe even 28/year).

If Air HQ is incapable of standing up two TEJAS squadrons a year, how in the good green earth are we planning to kill the MRFA acquisition?

Even if we do 1 squadron (18 aircraft) a year...it will take 9 years to deliver 180 aircraft (83 + 97) at 20 aircraft/year. And 201 Tejas Mk2s will take 20 years, going by that yardstick. And for the Mk2, let us give the benefit of the doubt that the screwdrivergiri factory for the F414 churns out 20 turbofans per year. That is nearly three decades for 380 aircraft. No wonder AIr HQ still wants the MRFA.

Getting a production rate to churn our 24, 28 or anything higher than that would be pointless, if there is no turbofan to mate them with. Was HAL planning to build airframes and just leave them in a corner somewhere, till the turbofans arrived?

Admiral sir, there is a way out....
1. Grab every M2K you can... Greek, qatari, emurati etc
2. Grab every confirm and flanker that you can
Consider the above a sunk cost to give us some breathing room.
3. Grab 36 extra raffles
We should be able to induce 6-10 sqds in 5-6 years. But that time hopefully we can secure the local supply chain.

[uddu]

IAF Vice-Chief: Self-reliance not at cost of nation’s defence
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... nce-641371
19 July 2024

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1814467101903511624 --->

Straight talk by IAF Vice Chief.

'Self reliance not at cost of nation's defence'.

Background, supplies of fighters jets are behind schedule. No signs of next generation planes.

The talk is said to be more than 1 hour and full of support for indigenous development. Just a Single stance is used to target indigenous weaponry. That's how propaganda work. If the Vice Chief and Chiefs were more like former ACM Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria, not a single word will be given to run propaganda against indigenous development. Also a large part of the blame forcing the nation to import is with the IAF and its leadership past and present. They cant run away from it either. Some like Shri RKSB being an exception did guide IAF towards the right path of self reliance. We are slightly better off with such leadership.

[sanjayc]

^^ The attitude of generals is that imports are natural and in national interest, and they are doing a huge favor to India if they agree to accept any Indian product. Truly pathetic how much Indians have to beg the generals to kindly allow an Indian MIC to develop. And this after 75 years of independence!! Do they need 750 years to act as a catalyst for development of an indigenous MIC?

[maitya]

If so (i.e. GE is only going to deliver 16 engines/year), how was HAL planning to deliver 24 aircrafts/year from 2025-26 onwards - the whole rational of building the 3rd line in Nashik is to accelerate production from 16 to 24 aircrafts/year.
With only 16 engines/year, how on earth 24 platforms/year being planned to deliver?

That is a mystery that only HAL knows. See my reply below.
...
<snip>
73 Mk1As + 10 Mk1s over a 5 year period works out to ~ 16 aircraft a year. Look at the production delivery schedule from Page 1 of this thread.

Planned Deliveries of the Mk1A Single Seat Fighter - URL, 13 Aug 2021
• 2024: 2 aircraft
• 2025: 8 aircraft
• 2026: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2027: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2028: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2029: 14 - 16 aircraft
...
<snip>

Assuming the above schedule indicates FY-end (i.e 2024 above means FY 2023-24, 2025 means FY2024-25 etc).

Now Idrw* is reporting that "... *atleast* 2 MK1As (single seater) is ready and 4 more are in various stages of completion. Plus 6 more trainers are also in various stages of production or nearing completion ..."
Does it mean 6 (out of 10, in the above list) will be met, most probably using the "reserve" F404s - and, by that logic/production-rate, 4 more can also get delivered by FY end, but they will rely on brand-new F404s, scheduled for delivery from Sep'24 onwards.

Also, now that it's settled that the peak delivery rate of F404s would be 20/year.
Not 16/year or 2/month etc, it'll be peak 20/year - so it essentially means a delivery schedule of maybe 16/year in the 1st year and there-after 20/year - which essentially means completion by 2029-30 (assuming 10-12/16/20/20/20 for 2024-25 and thereafter, respectively).
So this doesn't tie up with 24 aircraft/year production schedule from 2025-26 onwards.

If 99 additional MK1A deal goes thru, there'll definitely need to be an additional/parallel engine delivery line to be set-up ... and most probably an Indian assembly-line would be a must (maybe in conjunction with F414 delivery line with HAL).
I don't see any other way of maintaining a 24/year delivery schedule.


==============================================
*So, take with a bucketful of salt - any other news outlet reporting anything like this?

[Rakesh]

Battle Cry With Shiv Aroor: Homegrown Tejas MK1A Delayed, Who To Blame For Tejas Delay?

[Kartik]

Disappointing, to say the least As a stop gap measure, why can't we build/assemble the rest of the jet fighter and leave fitting/assembling the engine for later. As & when GE delivers the engines. Will this work? Is this a viable idea?

But then, I do not know much about manufacturing, much less manufacturing jet fighters. Should I keep my ideas to myself?

That is what will happen. HAL and it's suppliers will continue apace, and the fighters will be assembled to the point that the engine integration and ground testing is pending. Once engine supplies begin, they will begin to integrate them with the airframes and then within a few weeks after ground tests and flight tests are done, it'll be handed over to No.23 Squadron.

[fanne]

One short term solution is, out of 18 tejas trainer, fit engine in only 4 of them, make them without engine and park them. We will have 14 engines left (from not making the trainer), make mk1a with them so that you have at least 1 sq to cover mig 21 sq retired this year and pray that f404 does get delivered.

[Kartik]

The talk is said to be more than 1 hour and full of support for indigenous development. Just a Single stance is used to target indigenous weaponry. That's how propaganda work. If the Vice Chief and Chiefs were more like former ACM Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria, not a single word will be given to run propaganda against indigenous development. Also a large part of the blame forcing the nation to import is with the IAF and its leadership past and present. They cant run away from it either. Some like Shri RKSB being an exception did guide IAF towards the right path of self reliance. We are slightly better off with such leadership.

The man in question Air Marshal AP Singh is a very senior pilot of the IAF. A former Tejas test pilot, Chief Test Pilot at ASTE and PD at NFTC. He was also the Programme Director for the MiG-29UPG upgrade program. Don't doubt his credentials when it comes to supporting indigenous programs.

There is a serious problem at hand for the IAF. PAF has announced that they will be going for J-31s in the near future, PLAAF has over 200 J-20s and 400 J-10s and we are seeing delays (not HAL's fault entirely) on the Tejas Mk1A deliveries, after IAF has done what it needed to do, which is to put it's money where it's mouth is.

At this point of time, there will have to be imports of the MRFA or at least 100 Rafales including those 26 for the IN to arrest this decline.

[Rakesh]

At this point of time, there will have to be imports of the MRFA or at least 100 Rafales including those 26 for the IN to arrest this decline.

MRFA is coming.

Reportedly Air Marshal AP Singh mentioned that Air HQ is looking for a twin engine MRFA. That would eliminate the JAS-39 Gripen E/F and the F-21. That leaves the Rafale, EF Typhoon, F-18E/F, F-15EX, MiG-35 and Su-35.

I believe it is safe to assume that Air HQ is not interested in the MiG-35 or the Su-35. But Air HQ will eventually acquire the Su-57 as well in the long term. The AMCA is not coming on time either. But coming back to the MRFA, only the Western contestants are viable contenders. It looks like it will be the Rafale, but will have to wait and see.

[Rakesh]

Also, now that it's settled that the peak delivery rate of F404s would be 20/year.

20 turbofans per year is not enough to address the squadron shortage. That is just not enough.

The noise is being drummed up for a follow-on Rafale contract (and scrapping the MRFA contract) for the IAF. That video from Shiv Aroor (posted above) - from senior retired IAF officers - is an echo from Air HQ. A must watch IMVHO. Even Abhijit Iyer Mitra is making sense!

If 99 additional MK1A deal goes thru, there'll definitely need to be an additional/parallel engine delivery line to be set-up ... and most probably an Indian assembly-line would be a must (maybe in conjunction with F414 delivery line with HAL). I don't see any other way of maintaining a 24/year delivery schedule.

No point in setting up lines, if they production schedule is going to be at ~ 20 turbofans per year.

At the least (and that is a really low bar), match the production schedule to the annual airframe output. So if 24 airframes are being built, then 24 turbofans have to be ready for delivery. What is the point of building airframes, if there are no engines to mate them with?

*So, take with a bucketful of salt - any other news outlet reporting anything like this?

I would be wary of quoting IDRW. Even I get tempted to post IDRW links, but they are full of it.

[maitya]

Also, now that it's settled that the peak delivery rate of F404s would be 20/year.

20 turbofans per year is not enough to address the squadron shortage. That is just not enough.

The noise is being drummed up for a follow-on Rafale contract (and scrapping the MRFA contract) for the IAF. That video from Shiv Aroor (posted above) - from senior retired IAF officers - is an echo from Air HQ. A must watch IMVHO. Even Abhijit Iyer Mitra is making sense!
<snip>
...

Well that interview was a complete waste of b/w ... collective rudali of a bunch of import-pasand BWTs, anxious that their last (purportedly) of imported toys are currently staring at an abyss of MoD approval process.
And lesser one talks about that anal-cyst, who barely got a few minutes towards the end to vomit out his cud, the better it is - the resultant stench was overwhelming of course.

Ofcourse, thank god for the small mercies - one gent started off with "the 1983" talk, and it should have been immediately clear, where this is heading for.

Oh betw, if Mk1A was so central to mitigating IAFs squadron shortages, why on earth these worthies were silent when it took decade+, to get the contract getting eventually signed in 2021? Hoping against hope that the LCA would get labeled a failure in IOC, then when that didn't happen, atleast in the FOC stages, is it?
So this frustration-cum-anger required some venting, and finally an opportunity has come by, after decades - well utilised, must say.

Why did they allow the nascent indigenous TF program funding to be cut, so that the imported engine dependency can be firmly put in place - now decades later, when it has inevitably has come back to bite back, there's absolute thundering silence - expected, of course.
Now blabbering about 45% import content etc, is just that, blabbering!! Betw, please somebody whisper to these worthies, that majority of that "45% imported" aspect is the engine itself (and the ejection seat, of course), which you (and your import-pasand brethren) had fought so hard to keep it as an imported unit - remember!!

There's no problem operationalizing the imported-Jags with sub-optimal thrust ratings for decades, isn't it? But, one whiff of some shortfall in wet thrust (dry thrust achieved) and all and sundry had to crawl out of the woodwork, belittling the indigenous program, ensuring it's finished/killed.

Betw how on earth, a couple of Sqns of Rafales (or whatever imported toys these bunch is currently hallucinating about) would magically take it from 30/31sqns to 42 sqns.
Maybe, hoping against hope, that 42 - 30 = 12 sqn worth of Rafales would be immediately ordered via a G2G deal, we are a uber rich country after all.
It won't ... and only hope of meeting this mythical 42-Sqn requirement, is only via the LCA series, MK1A followed by Mk2.

So these worthies needs to suck it up and, if they have anything constructive to say, then only there's some sense in b/w utlisation on their utterings ... now shoo - they should go and fight their puny little toy-battles, say about attack-heli ownerships etc, with the IA chaps!!

[srai]

Wait till the GoI/MoF/MoD get a sticker price shock on how much MRFA 100+ Rafales will cost

In the first MRCA, GoI/MoF/MoD had budgeted $10-12 billion for 126 Rafales As a “compromise” face-saving gesture, the PM did a G2G for 36 Rafales at a cost of $8 billion.

So anyone thinking there is $30+ billion to spend on MRFA is dreaming only IMO.

[Prem Kumar]

The very fact that there is an MRFA tamasha going on (instead of just G2G Rafales) shows how serious the IAF is about squadron shortage or war fighting

As usual, they will wake up when they see a Morning News that Pakistan has bought XYZ plane. Then it'll be time for emergency imports

[Rakesh]

Betw how on earth, a couple of Sqns of Rafales (or whatever imported toys these bunch is currently hallucinating about) would magically take it from 30/31sqns to 42 sqns.
Maybe, hoping against hope, that 42 - 30 = 12 sqn worth of Rafales would be immediately ordered via a G2G deal, we are a uber rich country after all.
It won't ... and only hope of meeting this mythical 42-Sqn requirement, is only via the LCA series, MK1A followed by Mk2.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1773283439996797189?s=20 ---> 220 + 201 + 272 + 189 = 882

882 / ~20 aircraft per squadron = 44 squadrons. None of the above is arriving on time (via upgrades or new builds), but this is the plan. As mentioned earlier, it appears that it could take close to three decades to deliver 380 Tejas airframes. Because apparently Air HQ is clueless or unable on how to induct more than 1 Tejas squadron a year. So neither Tejas, nor MRFA or anything else is going to address the squadron shortage in a timely manner.

The planned timeline for the Super Sukhoi upgrade is hilarious. No wonder Air HQ views HAL with disdain. 15 years to upgrade 84 airframes. For an organization that has been building the Su-30MKI for a good two decades now, this is beyond pathetic.

Hoping that GE can deliver F404s as per agreed schedule (16 or 20). But this meagre delivery schedule is an open invitation for the MRFA contest.

[Rakesh]

The very fact that there is an MRFA tamasha going on (instead of just G2G Rafales) shows how serious the IAF is about squadron shortage or war fighting

As usual, they will wake up when they see a Morning News that Pakistan has bought XYZ plane. Then it'll be time for emergency imports.

This is how the chosen MRFA will be acquired. The argument will be emergency imports.

[fanne]

Since no one is commenting, let me ask this again, why does GE website says (and said 3 years ago) that they have produced 120+ F404-GE-IN20 turbofans.

Are these many already delivered? News reports only point over to some 75 delivered, but not everything comes in news or reported accurately.

You can find the 120+ on the GE website. Google F404-GE-IN20 and be ready to scroll right on the GE web page. I think it is incompetence at HAL level. They have sufficient engine to deliver our 83 LCAs. The 99 may be on top of that. We may have been actually smart and ordering before hand, accounting for reserves.

[Rakesh]

Since no one is commenting, let me ask this again, why does GE website says (and said 3 years ago) that they have produced 120+ f404 in 20.

Can you please post the link?

[fanne]

Here you go, when you open the website. Scroll down where you see photo of f18 hornet. At that point scroll to right until you see photo of lca. You will find this info there. I wished I knew how to make a screenshot and upload it here.

https://www.geaerospace.com/military-de ... gines/f404

[Rakesh]

Here you go...

Thank you for posting the link fanne.

Added Later: I found some press releases (from the GE website)...

F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft
https://www.geaerospace.com/news/press- ... t-aircraft
07 Feb 2007

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Value of the order is in excess of $100 million and follows an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

24 + 17 = 41 turbofans.

There were earlier variants of the F404 procured for the Tejas. I don't know how many of these were acquired. See below...

GE F110/F404 Fighter Engines Poised To Expand International Presence
https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... l-presence
16 June 2003

The F404/F2J3 is powering the India Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) during its flight test program.

I am not sure how GE is coming to that figure of 120+ F404-GE-IN20 turbofans produced. But I will give GE the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps maitya-ji might know.

[fanne]

The numbers are all over the place. This link claims 75 engines delivered so far -

https://idrw.org/hal-iaf-and-ge-to-addr ... as-orders/