India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

[Rudradev]

Not sure what the rona-dhona in the Nitishastra article is about. India has not compromised on the trade deal under discussion, and will not compromise. I have a lot of respect for Navroop Singh, but he would be well advised to stop catastrophizing over some imaginary surrender by GOI that has not taken place, and definitely should not use PRC propaganda terminology like "blood bag" in his think pieces.



The new Section 301 tariffs are an empty threat intended to pressurize nations to accept US terms (especially India, which is already under stress from the Iran/Hormuz shock). Why empty? They are going to be ripped apart in court. Even the process of refunding American importers the $175 B they lost under the IEEPA tariffs struck down by the US Supreme Court is far from over-- this will inevitably be cited in challenging the 301 tariffs. Then there is the domestic economic mess Chump has waded into by starting the Iran war, and the looming prospect of getting hammered in the midterms as economic pain mounts for the American consumer. It's one thing to issue press releases about a new tariff structure and quite another to actually impose them.

[williams]

Yes this admin is dead rubber. Just wait for 3 months and they will sound even more lame duck. India is not going to sign on the dotted line until the terms of the deal is equal in all respects.

[Manish_Sharma]

Not sure what the rona-dhona in the Nitishastra article is about. India has not compromised on the trade deal under discussion, and will not compromise. I have a lot of respect for Navroop Singh, but he would be well advised to stop catastrophizing over some imaginary surrender by GOI that has not taken place.....

He used to be very supportive of GoI but in last one month he has almost taken 180°turn... quite surprising!

[Manish_Sharma]

https://x.com/KanwalSibal/status/206281 ... 12365?s=20

India’s high tariffs were not US specific and neither were US low tariffs India specific.

The impression being created that India imposed blanket 200% tariffs on US exports is totally misleading.

It is ironical that Trump believes high tariffs by the US is a good tool to protect the US economy but high tariffs by India to protect some critical areas of its economy is not.

It can be argued that the US has taken advantage of India and the whole world through its control of the global financial system, the role of the US $ as the world’s reserve currency, the petrodollar arrangement, the policy of sanctions etc.

Singling out the tariff issue is arbitrary.

Talk of liking Modi is a verbal distraction.

India was the most tariffed country in the world till the US Supreme Court questioned Trump’s presidential power to impose tariffs.

The trade deal with the US is still stuck. The US now intends to impose additional tariffs on India under Section 301.

[S_Madhukar]

Some good points from MJ Akbar.
- Pakistan wanted freedom from Hindus while India wanted independence aka strategic autonomy. Hence Pakistan is not a viable state as it is ok to be a vassal
- Since Jinnah , sweet talking Pakistanis have cornered Americans and that continues today
- Eyeran distrusts Pakistan now because they know they are vassals and subject to US pressure compared to say India and other countries
- Israel notably missing in Eyeran dialogues.
- 21st century began in 1979 with Eyeran revolution , beginning of end of communism and rise of Islamism
- today after 50 years US trying to control both oil and the water that it depends on despite the fact that US weapons haven’t quite worked well
- Notes previous administrators have not strengthened India’s security apparatus - continuing with grand Britshit tradition of best strategy is do nothing and that hopefully is being addressed now.

[Manish_Sharma]

https://x.com/ShayGal84/status/2063174293807145269?s=20

How Pakistan turned China into the real end-user of U.S. F-16 technology.

A doctrinal warning in @THEEURASIATIMES
.

Washington does not need to transfer F-16 technology to Beijing. It only needs to keep it alive in Pakistan, inside an air force structurally tied to China, operationally aimed at India, and layered with Turkish drone attrition.

That is the contradiction at the heart of American South Asia policy.

Washington asks India to anchor the Indo-Pacific against China, while sustaining for Pakistan one of the most sensitive American combat ecosystems ever placed inside Beijing’s learning perimeter. F-16s, Link 16, encryption, IFF, radar, mission software, simulators, maintenance cycles and support lines are not isolated items. Together, they form a combat classroom.

Link 16 is not a radio. It is the grammar of Western networked warfare. It teaches tempo, identification, command logic, transmission discipline, reaction time and battlefield behavior. When that grammar operates in Pakistan, the question is no longer only what Islamabad receives. The question is what Beijing learns.

Pakistan is not a normal end-user. It is a nuclear military state with Chinese depth, Chinese platforms, Chinese industry and Chinese doctrine inside its strategic bloodstream. It has mastered the oldest arbitrage in American policy: take the system from Washington, the depth from Beijing, the drones from Ankara, and the grievance against India from everywhere.

One air force now holds both worlds.

America supplies the nervous system. Turkey feeds the swarm. China harvests the lesson. India becomes the operating environment.

In May 2025, that operating environment became a laboratory. Chinese systems in Pakistani service met Indian responses in real time: drones, missiles, radars, air defenses, command systems and electronic signatures. This was not Indian failure. Even interception teaches. A system that blocks, jams and responds still reveals how it does so.

Washington calls this interoperability. The word is too polite. This is exposure management dressed as alliance policy.

In 2019, Washington approved continuous technical security monitoring for Pakistan’s F-16 program. Monitoring is confession. You do not monitor a harmless relationship around the clock. You monitor a known risk.

Beijing does not need a stolen blueprint when access is institutionalized. It studies behavior, faults, updates, signatures, procedures, mission files, simulator habits and electronic patterns. Then it catalogs, models and weaponizes them.

That is the indictment.

America is not choosing Pakistan over India. It is preserving both policies at once - and forcing India to absorb the exposure.

That contradiction cannot be managed by reassurance.

It must be classified.

Every future F-16 package for Pakistan should face one test: not what Islamabad receives, but what Beijing learns.

[S_Madhukar]

We at some point need a doctrinal change of overwhelming conventional superiority of taking out the Khans toys at short notice. That teasing has gone far too long now. And the Lebanification of that land base. Somehow feel moles are operating inside that let this unnatural parity continue

Btw this has been written by an Israeli
They must know the perfidious Albion quite well!

[chanakyaa]

Few thought on the comments on the Rudradev ji's post above

...
The new Section 301 tariffs are an empty threat intended to pressurize nations to accept US terms (especially India, which is already under stress from the Iran/Hormuz shock). Why empty? They are going to be ripped apart in court. Even the process of refunding American importers the $175 B they lost under the IEEPA tariffs struck down by the US Supreme Court is far from over-- this will inevitably be cited in challenging the 301 tariffs.
...

I think the application of tariffs, its ultimate intention, during earlier part of Trumps's presidency (referred to as Liberation Day) is often misunderstand from geoeconomics perspective. Whether the tariffs are struct down by the court is completely irrelevant. In fact I would go even a step further and make a bold claim that partial rolling back of tariffs was desired by the administration, and it was channel through Supreme Court decision -- Plausible deniability. The intended damage it meant to cause has been accomplished.

What is the damage? Massive uneven depreciation of currencies of developing world (including India), and "uneven" tariffs has effectively change the exchange rate between non-USD currencies. INR has depreciated by ~12% against USD. As the US levied uneven tariffs against countries, the nations quickly moved to depreciate their currencies against USD to minimize the blow to exporters. The damage was further exacerbated by purposeful closure of Hormuz nearly doubled the oil prices, which cause double whammy with DRAIN OF FOREIGN RESERVES. So, if the supreme court rolls back tariffs, will INR to USD recover from 95 (or 100) to 85? NO, the damage has been done and, sadly, continuing

[S_Madhukar]

Texas DFW housing bust due to H1B issues?
- Sad to see one person having a cancer diagnosis, losing his job and having to sell the house(after removing Ganesha idol etc because prospective buyers did not like that...)
- House prices being marked down, some of them look quite big.

I feel sad for some of the affected but IMHO without PR/GC never buy a mortgage, doesn't matter if you are in a FAANG unless you have ready cash.

[uddu]

Cross posting from Internal security watch thread
https://x.com/ANI/status/2063477677303218481
@ANI
BJP MP Nishikant Dubey tweets, "...On June 7, 1974, the then-Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed an agreement that effectively bound India to a state of subservience. The seeds of this subjugation had been sown by Nehru shortly after independence, in 1949. Prior to 1962, India’s trade with other nations was conducted in pounds sterling or, in some instances, the respective country's currency; however, the United States compelled India to sign the Bretton Woods Agreement. Under this pact, trade with other nations was restricted to the US dollar—meaning the dollar effectively became the arbiter of our economic destiny. With the dollar’s ​​fluctuations dictating terms, the nation was kept in a state of perpetual economic vassalage to the US. The US amended the Bretton Woods Agreement again in 1962; pursuant to this, Indira Gandhi devalued the rupee on June 6, 1966. The final blow came on June 7, 1974, with the 'Balance of Payments' agreement, which reduced India to the status of an American economic colony"

[williams]

Cross posting from Internal security watch thread
https://x.com/ANI/status/2063477677303218481
@ANI
BJP MP Nishikant Dubey tweets, "...On June 7, 1974, the then-Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed an agreement that effectively bound India to a state of subservience. The seeds of this subjugation had been sown by Nehru shortly after independence, in 1949. Prior to 1962, India’s trade with other nations was conducted in pounds sterling or, in some instances, the respective country's currency; however, the United States compelled India to sign the Bretton Woods Agreement. Under this pact, trade with other nations was restricted to the US dollar—meaning the dollar effectively became the arbiter of our economic destiny. With the dollar’s ​​fluctuations dictating terms, the nation was kept in a state of perpetual economic vassalage to the US. The US amended the Bretton Woods Agreement again in 1962; pursuant to this, Indira Gandhi devalued the rupee on June 6, 1966. The final blow came on June 7, 1974, with the 'Balance of Payments' agreement, which reduced India to the status of an American economic colony"

Wrong information. Bretton Woods Conference agreement was signed in 1944 and India was part of the Brits. Its not about how you trade, it is about how currency value is set in international banking. At that time currency value is set based on the dollar. That system collapsed in 1971 and currencies can freely float based on the market. 1974 agreement has to do with using IMF facility to manage trade imbalances. It matters only when you don't have enough foreign currency in possession to payoff. At that time we didn't have the choice except to use this convenience.

From then to today you are free to trade in any currency as long as the other party agrees to it. We traded with Russia with roubles/rupees for a long time. So the whole weakening of rupee in international trade has to do with imports in dollars. We import a lot, because we don't produce enough goods and services for the international market. That I can blame on the Congi ecosystem where domestic private Industry had so many hurdles to produce anything. However, that culture still exists in our psyche today. We still love imported products and think our domestic product quality is not that good. The other part is the oil imports. If we can address those two we can stabilize the rupee.

Finally why there is so much noise on rupee value declining? Rupee exchange rate is what is declining and hence imports are expensive. For me that is opportunity to force people to use domestic products more. I think the noise either comes from the import lobby or those people who want to use their domestic stollen wealth to settle down/invest in foreign markets. As long as we encourage consumption of local products and manage inflation rupee exchange rate is not a big deal. The more we export and reduce CAD, the rupee is going to appreciate more. But that cannot happen overnight with some magic agreement. We all need to work towards it collectively for decades to get there.

For BJP ministers - the time for blaming previous ecosystem is over. This is your government and ecosystem. Start working and stop complaining

[A_Gupta]

Texas DFW housing bust due to H1B issues?
- Sad to see one person having a cancer diagnosis, losing his job and having to sell the house(after removing Ganesha idol etc because prospective buyers did not like that...)
- House prices being marked down, some of them look quite big.

I feel sad for some of the affected but IMHO without PR/GC never buy a mortgage, doesn't matter if you are in a FAANG unless you have ready cash.

I checked the statistics. Texas has 350,000 to 400,000 home sales per year. International buyers including H1-Bs account for 4000 to 5000 of these. How does this 1.4% of the market lead to a housing bust?

[Vayutuvan]

How does this 1.4% of the market lead to a housing bust?

High-level statistical data is being used to draw incorrect conclusions. (But I am called low IQ).

[saip]

H1B fee of $100k voided by a federal court.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ on the grounds that the H1-B fee amounts to a tax not authorized by Congress.

[sanjaykumar]

It is possible not probable. If Indians own exclusive and very expensive properties.


What goes up must come down, and the law of gravity.

But then I never studied law.

[saip]

OM does not care and his followers will be unhappy.

[williams]

Texas DFW housing bust due to H1B issues?
- Sad to see one person having a cancer diagnosis, losing his job and having to sell the house(after removing Ganesha idol etc because prospective buyers did not like that...)
- House prices being marked down, some of them look quite big.

I feel sad for some of the affected but IMHO without PR/GC never buy a mortgage, doesn't matter if you are in a FAANG unless you have ready cash.

No actually the problem in DFW is the house prices got inflated to crazy levels. Obviously our folks make good money and a lot of them moved there from CA or invested in additional real estate. The market is normalizing right now due to high interest rate and a slight tech job crunch in the market.

[A_Gupta]

About financing:

"Given the tight 60-day grace period associated with H-1B job separation, buyers in the DFW area frequently discuss exit strategies with their real estate agents and attorneys before closing. Financing agreements do not contain "visa clauses" that allow a buyer to walk away from a mortgage if they lose their status. Consequently, H-1B homeowners ensure they have substantial cash reserves (often 6 to 12 months of mortgage payments) or structure their property ownership so it can easily convert into a long-term rental property managed from abroad if they are required to leave the country."

[saip]

I was in Dallas in 2024 Aug to 'see' the total solar eclipse. I felt the housing market there is dirt cheap (in comparison to Bay Area). I stayed with my Cousin's daughter (is she my cousin too, once removed?). The house was three times my house at 60% of the cost!

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Navy attacks empty Indian crewed tanker in international waters off Masirah Island in Oman. A F/A-18 Super Hornet from carrier USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72) fired a precision munition into the ship’s engine room after the crew did not pay heed to U.S warnings.

• Ship was sanctioned by Treasury Dept for breaking Iran blockade
• Currently empty and had been sailing up and down Omani coast
• No casualties, all crew rescued by Omani military.
• US Centcom Statement-

  “U.S. forces disabled (attacked) an unladen oil tanker in the Gulf of Oman, June 8, after the vessel violated the ongoing blockade against Iran by attempting to sail to an Iranian port.”

What is the legality of this action by the US? What options are there for India? Tanker was not Indian flagged but registered in Palau. Neither is it owned or operated by an Indian firm but by Arihant Shipping based out of Panama. Most importantly, is this a fight we need to pick?

[uddu]

https://x.com/sidhant/status/2064348083530748093
@sidhant

MT Marivex, after US "disabled" it. The sanctioned vessel tried to bypass US blockade. 24 Indian nationals were rescued by Oman after the US strike.

[Lisa]

Why would the vessel refuse to do what an American warship demanded? Whether the instruction is legal is a mute point.

[A_Gupta]

AI says: The short answer: because the Marivex had every incentive not to comply, and almost no ability to do so safely once confronted — politically, commercially, and operationally. The legality of the U.S. order is indeed a separate question, but the refusal itself is explainable through well‑documented maritime behavior under coercive interdiction.

[A_Gupta]

Another AI:

The incident involving the MT Marivex highlights the high-stakes friction between geopolitical enforcement and merchant shipping logistics.

From a purely operational and commercial standpoint, a merchant vessel choosing to repeatedly ignore or attempt to bypass warnings from a naval superpower—especially after being turned back three times prior—comes down to a mix of economic, contractual, and structural factors.

Here is why a vessel in this situation often pushes forward despite the obvious risks:

1. Financial Incentives vs. Severe Penalties

Vessels operating under international sanctions or participating in a "shadow fleet" are typically engaged in high-risk, high-reward trade.

The Premium: The financial incentives for successfully running a blockade or delivering to a sanctioned destination (like Iran) are heavily inflated to offset the risk.

Contractual Duress: The ship’s operators or charterers, rather than the crew on board, make the routing decisions. If a ship fails to deliver its cargo or fulfill its charter party agreement, it faces massive financial penalties, breach of contract lawsuits, or the loss of highly lucrative, specialized trade networks.

2. "Sunk Costs" and Sanctions Status

The MT Marivex was already blacklisted by the US Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC). For an asset that has already been completely cut off from the mainstream Western financial system, standard compliance mechanisms lose their teeth.

When a ship is already barred from major international ports, cannot secure standard western P&I (Protection and Indemnity) insurance, and cannot transact in US dollars, it has very little left to lose legally.

Its entire economic viability depends solely on servicing the exact markets the blockade is designed to target. Complying with a US warship's order to turn around permanently could mean the immediate financial death of the operating company (Arihant Shipping Inc.).

3. Miscalculated Risk Assessment

Historically, naval forces enforcing blockades or economic sanctions rely heavily on interdiction, diversion, and boarding rather than kinetic military strikes against unladen civilian merchant vessels.

The operators may have gambled that the US Navy would not escalate to firing a precision munition into a merchant ship's engineering space, especially with a crew of foreign nationals on board.

By switching off its Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders and attempting to hug Omani territorial waters on its fourth run, the vessel was actively betting on stealth and regional maritime boundaries to shield it from US jurisdiction.

4. The Separation of Crew and Command

It is vital to distinguish between the seafarers and the vessel owners/operators.

Merchant crews—in this case, the 24 Indian nationals—are employees hired to sail the ship. They do not choose the cargo, the destination, or the political risks taken by the ship’s management.

When a captain receives a direct, conflicting order between the employer (who controls their livelihood) and a foreign military warship demanding a course correction, the pressure to comply with corporate command frequently dictates actions until the threat of kinetic force becomes immediate and undeniable.

Ultimately, the MT Marivex ran a high-stakes calculation that failed when the US military altered its threshold for enforcement, choosing to physically disable the ship to uphold the blockade corridor.

[A_Gupta]

https://weddings.lavenderhotels.co.uk/m ... t%20escape.

The immediate fallout highlights a massive blind spot for international seafarers. The Forward Seamen's Union of India (FSUI) sounded alarms immediately, calling the military action a matter of serious concern for global labor.

Merchant sailors don't own these ships. They don't set the routes, and they don't profit from illicit oil trades. Yet, they are the ones trapped in the engine rooms when precision munitions strike.

What makes this specific incident terrifying for the maritime community is the structural destruction. When the munition hit the aft section of the Marivex, the resulting fire immediately compromised the vessel's primary survival gear. Merchant ships are legally required to have lifeboats ready for deployment within minutes. By destroying that capability, the strike turned the vessel into a cage.

Had the Omani authorities not responded immediately with search and rescue helicopters to winch the 24 Indian nationals off the smoking deck, the crew would have been forced to jump into open waters near a burning hull. Photos released after the operation showed the sailors uninjured, posing safely with Omani aircrews. They got lucky. The next crew might not.

The political silence radiating from New Delhi right now is deafening. India's Ministry of Ports, Shipping, and Waterways quickly held a press briefing confirming that a fire had broken out on the vessel at 1:30 PM local time. They stressed that all 24 seafarers were safe.

But notice what they didn't say.

Indian officials deliberately avoided mentioning the American airstrike. They didn't condemn the use of force against a crew of their citizens, nor did they acknowledge that a U.S. warplane caused the fire. Instead, the Indian Embassy in Muscat focused entirely on thanking Oman for the swift evacuation.

This diplomatic tightrope is getting harder to walk. India relies heavily on its strategic partnership with Washington, yet hundreds of thousands of Indian mariners form the backbone of the global merchant fleet, including the dark fleet operating in the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. Ten Indian nationals have already died in wider West Asian maritime conflicts since the current regional war escalated, including three seafarers killed in previous ship attacks.

By pretending the strike was just an anonymous "fire on a vessel," India is trying to protect its diplomatic relationship with the West. But line-level maritime unions are growing furious. They want to know why their citizens are being used as target practice in an American enforcement campaign

[uddu]

Cross posting from Modi 3.0
https://x.com/sidhant/status/2064737784489984477
@sidhant

BIG BREAKING:

INDIA DEMARCHES US CdA JASON MEEKS OVER STRIKE ON VESSEL OFF THE COAST OF OMAN ON WHICH INDIAN NATIONALS WERE PRESENT

https://x.com/sidhant/status/2064722673792602343
@sidhant

Breaking

Indian govt says 3 Indian nationals missing after attack on the commercial vessel Settebello off the coast of Oman.

MEA says, "targeting of commercial shipping and civilian infrastructure in the region must end"

[krithivas]

The cockroaches will rightly take full political advantage of the death of the Indian sailors by the irresponsible action of the US navy. It is turning political very soon.

[A_Gupta]

Quote:

The Marivex was a warning sign.
The Settebello was a breaking point.
India issued a demarche only when U.S. military action directly harmed Indian nationals, not when the U.S. merely escalated blockade enforcement in general.

[vera_k]

The cockroaches will rightly take full political advantage of the death of the Indian sailors by the irresponsible action of the US navy. It is turning political very soon.

The alpha cockroach is a US resident. Any protest against US action will be on pain on being denied entry or $s.

[uddu]

Coackroaches are mere social media sensation hype with money thrown in to keep it running. Their usual supporters are the Anarchy loving Urban Naxals and the usual political rivals of BJP trying to take advantage of some media coverage in their favour.

[williams]

The cockroaches will rightly take full political advantage of the death of the Indian sailors by the irresponsible action of the US navy. It is turning political very soon.

The alpha cockroach is a US resident. Any protest against US action will be on pain on being denied entry or $s.

You are right. Anything like that and cockroaches will be target for deportation.

[drnayar]

https://theaidem.com/en-the-numbers-gam ... rican-gas/


[

[Lisa]

U.S. Forces Disable 3rd Oil Tanker Violating Blockade in Gulf of Oman

https://www.centcom.mil/MEDIA/PUBLIC-RE ... f-of-oman/

[uddu]

U.S is attacking India. May be out of frustration of their coackroaches regime change operation failing miserably

https://x.com/sidhant/status/2065013627267195172
@sidhant
We condemn the attack on a ship off the coast of Oman in which, unfortunately, we lost three Indian nationals. We had summoned the US CDA here to register a strong protest: MEA Spox Randhir Jaiswal

https://x.com/sidhant/status/2065065186055307660
@sidhan
US fired two Hellfire missiles into the ship Jalveer's engine room. Indian nationals onboard it have been rescued.

https://x.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/2064969472856006984
@AdityaRajKaul

#BREAKING: Yet another attack on a vessel off the coast of Oman amid West Asia Crisis. Third such major attack in less than 4 days.

Indian Embassy in Oman says:

“We have learnt of an incident involving a vessel off Shinas port of Oman, earlier today. We are closely monitoring inating with the local authorities for further details.”

https://x.com/sidhant/status/2065064689525240239
@sidhant

Indian Navy safely recovers and disposes of unexploded missile warhead from crude oil tanker MT Olympic Life off Oman coast.

The Marshall Islands-flagged vessel, en route from Fujairah to Kochi, had the projectile lodged in a fuel tank following a hull explosion on 26 May.

[uddu]

https://x.com/ShereenBhan/status/2065049193702683124
@ShereenBhan

#IranUpdate Trump threatens escalation says US will continue strikes and will take over Kharg Island in the ‘not too distant future. And assume total control of the oil market like Venezuela’

#Trump Below
“The United States will be hitting Iran (Whose Navy, Air Force, Radar, Anti Aircraft, and all other forms of Defense, together with most its offensive capability, are GONE!), VERY HARD TONIGHT. At some point in the not too distant future, we will be taking Kharg Island, and other oil infrastructure points, and assume total control of their Oil and Gas Markets, much like we have with Venezuela, which is working out brilliantly for both Venezuela and the United States of America”

[chanakyaa]

https://theaidem.com/en-the-numbers-gam ... rican-gas/
…

Thanks for posting that article. The article pretty much summarizes the geopolitical and geoeconomics game in West Asia. By demanding to importing from uncle at much higher prices, India is draining its foreign reserves. 24 days of shipment vs. 7/8 days from west Asia. Huge difference. Eventually the cost to import from west Asia’s could be raised so high that it could make imports from massa land equal in price, at the expense of massive inflation and job losses. In the meantime, have we expressed कड़ी निंदा for blowing up Indian tankers?

[uddu]

Seems he started the recent escalation after oil prices were seen coming down.
Also the attack on Indian tankers could be diversion tactic to help their Munna in PoK.

[Rudradev]

There is nothing else for it. The IN has to escort Indian vessels transiting the Strait of Hormuz and the Gulf of Oman. If IN cannot secure India's shipping interests in India's own neighbourhood, what is the use of it? To scare the puny Pakis?

[Lisa]

There is nothing else for it. The IN has to escort Indian vessels transiting the Strait of Hormuz and the Gulf of Oman. If IN cannot secure India's shipping interests in India's own neighbourhood, what is the use of it? To scare the puny Pakis?

Does anyone know if any of the attacked ships were acually Indian?