Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 12 Dec 2021 02:45

Market for 2nd hand market is very small - just egypt, morocco and india. Egypt has 18, morocco 26. Neither have large numbers or aerospace capabilities like India. So practically uae has only one customer who also will.want to buy this note rather than 2026, whem mk2 will b already much ahead.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 12 Dec 2021 05:31

UAE will get Rafales only starting from 2027... And UAE will probably retire their M2000s only after Rafales are fully operationalized...
So, their M2000s will be retired only in early 2030s...
By 2027, Tejas Mk2 will be ready for production... So, it makes zero sense for us to buy these 2nd hand M2000s...

However, these M2000s will be useful for us for spares... That will probably help us to maintain over fleet into late 2030s in case there is delay in Tejas Mk2 and AMCA...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Dec 2021 06:19

On the contrary, if a large enough market exists. The issue of spare parts can be resolved economically.

But I see the point about the Mk2. Any other solution in the absence of a substantial force increase in the IAF will only serve to delay the Mk 2.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Dec 2021 12:18

While it maybe true that uae will start receiving tamales post 2027, perhaps they can be persuaded to pass on a sqd or so to the iaf earlier than that date.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Dec 2021 23:19

Yes we enjoyed your tamales

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Dec 2021 00:17

shaun wrote:Yes we enjoyed your tamales

Well they can be hot I suppose. bloody Autocorrect!

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 13 Dec 2021 01:37

In 2019 uae signed a contract with mbda for mirage ammunition maintenance. Uae mirages use mica. In 2000, gamco which is known as adat now was contracted to do mro for uae mirages. No updates available on that piece recently.

Since liked India, uae isn't mopping up mirage airframes, so uae is going to retire them soon and mirages must be facing mainatainability issues. In that situation I have no basis to say exactly when may want to retire mirages but they will get an order of value less if they delay their mirage selloff.

Just my speculation news item of uae giving their mirages to egypt or morroco who r in no position to absorb mirages probably mayb bargaining chip, for an eventual deal with India.

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Dec 2021 02:47

Despite we screaming and shouting about IAF modernization, bar the Jag, ALL the fighters in IAF's inventory are BVR capable! That is like upto 85% of the force! Even the jag's have 2032 and is being upgraded with 2052! The entire IAF is upgraded!

The Chinis and Pak are still flying with hundreds of fighters with zero BVR capability! More than half of PAF's fleet is made of F7 & M5! What about PLAAF! Same situation.

Despite all the ho ha.. it is PAF & PLAAF who are behind force modernization!

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Dec 2021 02:48

And I haven't counted the Akash, Spyder, Barak8, S400..

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 13 Dec 2021 05:10

nam wrote:Despite we screaming and shouting about IAF modernization, bar the Jag, ALL the fighters in IAF's inventory are BVR capable! That is like upto 85% of the force! Even the jag's have 2032 and is being upgraded with 2052! The entire IAF is upgraded!

The Chinis and Pak are still flying with hundreds of fighters with zero BVR capability! More than half of PAF's fleet is made of F7 & M5! What about PLAAF! Same situation.

Despite all the ho ha.. it is PAF & PLAAF who are behind force modernization!

After astra is integrated on mig29, most iaf jets will have a longer stick than paf. Not sure how m2000 bbr suite compared with aimc5

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Dec 2021 08:47

nam wrote:Despite we screaming and shouting about IAF modernization, bar the Jag, ALL the fighters in IAF's inventory are BVR capable! That is like upto 85% of the force! Even the jag's have 2032 and is being upgraded with 2052! The entire IAF is upgraded!

The Chinis and Pak are still flying with hundreds of fighters with zero BVR capability! More than half of PAF's fleet is made of F7 & M5! What about PLAAF! Same situation.

Despite all the ho ha.. it is PAF & PLAAF who are behind force modernization!

This applies to the paf, not the PLAAF. Afaik the latter has a very large fleet of bvr capable fighters including multiple flanker variants (27s, 30s, 35, j11s, j16), j10s and now, j20s. they have a larger bvr fleet than the entire iaf fighter inventory. And that's even if we want to include the jags which are hardly bvr capable, and exclude the jh7a, which can supposedly use the pl12.
No sir, make no mistake the.. The PLAAF has come a long way, and now has gained clear capability advantages over the IAF., which has lost it's qualitative AND quantitative advantages.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Dec 2021 13:08

Looks like ACM is making case for new goodies... More raffles?

https://youtu.be/5DHPDtZP2EU

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2021 23:55

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 79460?s=20 ---> Report: IAF's Composite Battle Response and Analysis Group (CoBRA-G) has given IAF an edge in doctrine development, force employment and strategy over rivals (PAF & PLAAF).

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Dec 2021 00:24

Cain Marko wrote:This applies to the paf, not the PLAAF. Afaik the latter has a very large fleet of bvr capable fighters including multiple flanker variants (27s, 30s, 35, j11s, j16), j10s and now, j20s. they have a larger bvr fleet than the entire iaf fighter inventory. And that's even if we want to include the jags which are hardly bvr capable, and exclude the jh7a, which can supposedly use the pl12.
No sir, make no mistake the.. The PLAAF has come a long way, and now has gained clear capability advantages over the IAF., which has lost it's qualitative AND quantitative advantages.

Not denying that. However PLAAF BVR force is not 2 or 3 times of IAF. Which is what is is required to create air superiority on LAC to defeat our ground forces. PLAAF face the same problem we face with PAF. PAF is small for a full fledged war, but quite big for a short war. Same with us and China wants to short high intensity war.

Yes, things will get worse for us in 5 years when PLAAF built up substantial numbers. Hopefully by that time we will put place quality like Astra 2, SFDR, AWACS to counter the numbers for a short war.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Dec 2021 03:29

In Tibet, there is a limit to how many planes can be based. They have the same issue with the army - only few divisions can be based, you cannot base unlimited divisions say as in case of India/Pakistan

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2021 21:24

https://twitter.com/dperi84/status/1470 ... 55841?s=20 ---> Smart Anti Airfield Weapon (SAAW), an air launched smart glide bomb with ranges of up to 100kms developed by DRDO handed over to the IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Dec 2021 21:21

https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 56448?s=20 ---> Mirage 2000 upgraded mission computer.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Dec 2021 22:08

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 72069?s=20 ---> IAF's training aircraft inventory:

- 99 Hawk Mk. 132 AJT
- 42 HAL Kiran Mk-II
- 86 Kiran Mk-1/1A
- 75 PC-7 MK-II

IAF is also negotiating for 29 more Hawk AJTs as well as 106 HTT-40 BTAs.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 17 Dec 2021 00:59

^^^Pipistrel SW 80 around 72 nos should also be there.

cdbatra · Post by **cdbatra** » 17 Dec 2021 02:39

nam wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:This applies to the paf, not the PLAAF. Afaik the latter has a very large fleet of bvr capable fighters including multiple flanker variants (27s, 30s, 35, j11s, j16), j10s and now, j20s. they have a larger bvr fleet than the entire iaf fighter inventory. And that's even if we want to include the jags which are hardly bvr capable, and exclude the jh7a, which can supposedly use the pl12.
No sir, make no mistake the.. The PLAAF has come a long way, and now has gained clear capability advantages over the IAF., which has lost it's qualitative AND quantitative advantages.
Not denying that. However PLAAF BVR force is not 2 or 3 times of IAF. Which is what is is required to create air superiority on LAC to defeat our ground forces. PLAAF face the same problem we face with PAF. PAF is small for a full fledged war, but quite big for a short war. Same with us and China wants to short high intensity war.

Yes, things will get worse for us in 5 years when PLAAF built up substantial numbers. Hopefully by that time we will put place quality like Astra 2, SFDR, AWACS to counter the numbers for a short war.

Well there is no clear-cut and reliable estimate available for PLAAFs current inventory and production rate. Also consider the fact that their Aircraft inventory is split between plaaf and planaf with later being roughly 1/4th the size of plaaf but clearly outside indian air space.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2021 21:11

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 05250?s=20 ---> 1/2 Post Pathankot, the Indian Govt has approved an integrated smart power fencing called Integrated Perimeter Security System IPSS for 23 airbases. BEL has signed a contract with Indian Air Force for establishing IPSS for 23 airbases & pilot site was commissioned in Feb 2021.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 05250?s=20 ---> 2/2 BEL has given sub-contract to many Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM) and System Integrators for this:

* Radar: ELTA
* Underground Vibration Detection System/DIDS: Future Fiber Technology
* CCTV: FLIR, USA
* ESPF: Gallagher
* Network: Cisco
* IT infrastructure: HPE

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2021 21:17

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 58626?s=20 ---> Due to Indian S-400, freedom of operation for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), even inside its own territory, would be limited in peacetime too, admits a report by PAF run 'Air University'. Adds, the S-400 system helps the IAF establish a high degree of air control on the battlefields.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Dec 2021 09:05

Haram Link of TSPAF 'Air University' report

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Dec 2021 12:54

I expect another Balakot-style strike post S400 operationalization

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Dec 2021 15:28

Can the S400s be used against the famed tactical nukes mounted on Nasr rockets or they too short ranged. Nasr range is 60 km or so as I remember

The Pakis were touting these missiles to threaten IBG deployment on Pakistani soil.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2021 23:02

Folks, I think we need a volunteer team to gather published data on IAF experiences in ground attacks since the 1948 Kashmir war.
Incidents, weapons, pilot experiences, how the situation has changed?
Kashmir, Congo, Goa, 1965, 1971, Kargil, Balakot.
Should be a solid 100-page plus monograph.
So let us gather the data in a separate thread and get a good writer to tell the story.

Rakesh, Please start a thread.
Thanks, ramana

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 01:40

I will start one today Ramana-ji. If you have any title suggestions, please do let me know.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 01:42

India deploys first S-400 air defence system in Punjab sector, to take care of aerial threats from both China, Pakistan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 397852.cms
20 Dec 2021

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Dec 2021 03:14

First regiment of S-400 missile system arrive in India, to be deployed in this region

The first regiment of the S-400 missile system from Russia has arrived in India. In 2022, it is likely to be deployed in the northern region of the country, from where it can prevent any kind of air attack from Pakistan and China and protect the country.

The second regiment of S-400 is expected to reach India by June 2022 next year. India can then deploy its S-400 regiments for the security of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 04:24

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 10688?s=20 ---> Second regiment of S-400 to arrive in India in June 2022, likely to be deployed in NE India. Third regiment to arrive in early 2023.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 04:29

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 19265?s=20 ---> India's secretive ARC Global 5000 SIGINT aircraft carried out a sortie near Indo-Tibet-Nepal trijunction in recent days. It has the capability to intercept and analyze even the most high encrypted enemy communications.

https://twitter.com/daeroplate_v2/statu ... 77153?s=20 ---> The satcom dorsal blister indicates it is capable of downlinking data in flight, not just a record-and-offline-analysis rig.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Dec 2021 06:18

Rakesh wrote:India deploys first S-400 air defence system in Punjab sector, to take care of aerial threats from both China, Pakistan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 397852.cms
20 Dec 2021

From pathankot, the s400 can singlehandedly block off almost all paf bases extending all the way to Hyderabad in the south and Peshawar in the northwest. Iaf can monitor air traffic much deeper. PAF is effed. Imposing an nfz over pak airspace is a very real danger.

The only possible issue could be iff but I'm sure they have thought through this, and at least the russki platforms like the bison, baaz and mki should be able to roam these skies unfettered.

Even so, one might've thought that the leh area would have been a more effective placement although the mountains probably limit the potential of the system.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Dec 2021 06:25

Why do I keep seeing the 91N6E as a great lidless eye rimmed with fire that pierces everything in the land of Mordor.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Dec 2021 06:35

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:India deploys first S-400 air defence system in Punjab sector, to take care of aerial threats from both China, Pakistan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 397852.cms
20 Dec 2021
From pathankot, the s400 can singlehandedly block off almost all paf bases extending all the way to Hyderabad in the south and Peshawar in the northwest. Iaf can monitor air traffic much deeper. PAF is effed. Imposing an nfz over pak airspace is a very real danger.

CM saab, Pathankot-Peshawar is >400km and Pathankot-Hyderabad is >1000km. There is such a thing as radar horizon. Let's not get excited beyond reason. Yes the S400 will give us a good surveillance capability into paki airspace, but that doesn't mean we "block off" airbases. We can certainly reduce offensive options for the PAF along with their chances of achieving surprise anywhere.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Dec 2021 07:21

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: From pathankot, the s400 can singlehandedly block off almost all paf bases extending all the way to Hyderabad in the south and Peshawar in the northwest. Iaf can monitor air traffic much deeper. PAF is effed. Imposing an nfz over pak airspace is a very real danger.
CM saab, Pathankot-Peshawar is >400km and Pathankot-Hyderabad is >1000km. There is such a thing as radar horizon. Let's not get excited beyond reason. Yes the S400 will give us a good surveillance capability into paki airspace, but that doesn't mean we "block off" airbases. We can certainly reduce offensive options for the PAF along with their chances of achieving surprise anywhere.

I eyeballed Google maps, and as the crow flies estimated 600km for Hyderabad and 400km for Peshawar. Of course, my eyes may have been deceived given the dark Lords power in those lands. Nevertheless, while LOS limitations exist, high flyers will be in trouble. Esp. BMs, refuelers and AEW types. consider also that the vhf radar component has detection range in excess of 1000km. The black land shall be closely watched.

Airbases closer and smaller/sneakier targets will find it hard to escape the iron embrace of the 48n6 - 250km. An NFZ now is very possible. Naturally, in tandem with other assets

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Dec 2021 11:18

Rakesh wrote:I will start one today Ramana-ji. If you have any title suggestions, please do let me know.

Ground Attack by IAF: History and Doctrine

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Dec 2021 18:57

I suppose the key advantage is the long range missile, rather than detection range. We have enough radars, in fact AESA (Swordfish, Phalcon, may be even Anurdha)which is more powerful than the one on S400. Pak airspace detection is not a problem.

The long range missile solve one of the key issue we had around SAMs. The lack of range of the current SAM means we have to deploy them closer to the LC to be effective. The missiles have to be physically moved to these location during a crisis. Not to mention the logistics requirements.

S400 on the other can be deployed on IAF airbases and able to target incoming bogies on the LC/IB. Protects the airbase & border. Solves the need to move the kit all the way closer the border. Use the depth advantage that we have. IAF has to allocate quite a bit of air asset for airbase protection. Not to mention Spyder, Akash, Akash NG, Barak 8! This removes that need.

Hitting PAF deep in their airspace is just a cherry on the top. I doubt we will keep the kit so close to the LC to do this.

If S400 was present during Feb 19 punch up, a missile from Srinagar would have been the first to reach the fight instead of WC Abhi. We didn't even have Barak8 during that time.

As IAF settles down with S400, i can IAF asking DRDO to speed up XRSAM..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 19:35

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I will start one today Ramana-ji. If you have any title suggestions, please do let me know.
Ground Attack by IAF: History and Doctrine

Thread Started ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7877

Please edit or add info as you deem necessary. Thank You.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Dec 2021 21:41

S-400 is right now the best available long-range SAM system for India to acquire.
If it's useless, the US would not invoke CAATSA sanctions!
The units already are deployed and have added to the IAF capabilities.
The lack of these with IAF was sorely felt in the aftermath of Galwan.
While PLA had them.
Being skeptical is nice but not cynical.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 22:35

https://twitter.com/Lone_wolf110/status ... 44545?s=20 ---> An Infographics on recent IAF Airbases Upgradations in North-Eatern India. Most of the upgradations took place after 2020 clashes with China. (Minor upgradations at Jorhat AFB, Dibrugarh AFB, etc. not included).