Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

peter · Post by **peter** » 20 Dec 2015 15:21

shiv wrote:
peter wrote: Is M576 above or below M420 on the tree?
It is not on the tree at all as far as I can tell

Another point to note R1 is older than R1a which is older than R1a1 which is older than R1a1a etc.

Even if R1 developed in Iran or Sweden or Timbuktu, it does not rule out a later development of R1a1a1 M17 in India.For example M 458, which comes lower down than M17 apparently developed in Poland/east Europe about 6000 years ago never came to India, but M 17 exists all the way from India to Poland. That means M458 did not come down to India in the last 6000 years

In this particular paper I have been unable to find any reference to the "estimated age" of these genetic markers. Maybe I need to dig into the paper in more detail. Even if R1 developed in Iran unless a movement to India occurred in the last 3000-3500 years AIT is ruled out. Other papers do show that ANI genes occur in Iran etc but admixture occurred more than 10,000 years ago and continued, leading to all Indians having that gene today - even tribals, ruling out the theory of AIT/AMT in the last 3500 years.

The 3500 years date is important for AIT because it is a linguistic date where they say that PIE existed before Sanskrit and Sanskrit came with Aryans 3500 years ago to India (Mitanni 3800 years ago and PIE 4500 years ago is what linguists claim). If they say Sanskrit came with Aryans 10,000 years ago then they will have to produce proof of PIE older than 10,000 years. That is non existent

You may be onto something here. From this website http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/ind ... -2347.html

Code: Select all

Here are all M576


Caucasus Armenian M576 16 12 13 19 25 12 11 14 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Hazara M576 16 12 13 17 24 11 11 13 11 10 11 15 14 12 20 15 15 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 14 17 24 10 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 17 24 11
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 14 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 9 19 15 15 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 11 11 15 14 11 21 15 17 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 14 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 9 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 15 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 9 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 16 12 14 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Pachtoun M576 16 12 13 16 25 11 11 13 11 10 11 15 14 11 19 15 15 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 13 18 24 10 9 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 14 16 24 11 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 9 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 12 10 10 11 14 14 11 21 15 15 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 12 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 18 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 17 12 12 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 13 19 25 11 ND 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 14 17 24 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 24 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 ND 14 18 25 10 11 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 15 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Tajik M576 16 12 13 18 25 9 11 14 11 10 11 14 14 11 19 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Turkmen M576 15 12 14 17 24 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 14
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 16 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 14 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 14 18 26 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 14 23 11
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 12 10 10 11 14 ND 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 14 18 26 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 9 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 13 12 17 25 11 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 16 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 16 12 13 16 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 14 17 26 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 24 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Afghanistan, Uzbek M576 15 12 14 18 26 11 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 9 20 15 16 23 13
Central Asia/Southern Siberia Kyrgyz Southern M576 16 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Near/Middle East Esfahan, Iran M576 16 12 14 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 17 17 23 13
Near/Middle East Golestan, Iran M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Golestan, Iran M576 16 12 14 17 24 10 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Hormozgan, Iran M576 16 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Hormozgan, Iran M576 16 12 13 17 26 10 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Iranian M576 15 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 19 16 16 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 18 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 18 23 14
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 15 12 14 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 16 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 16 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 11 10 11 15 14 12 20 15 16 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 14 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 17 16 23 13
Near/Middle East Khorasan, Iran M576 16 12 14 17 25 9 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Khorasan, Iran M576 16 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 11 10 11 16 14 11 20 16 15 23 13
Near/Middle East Kordestan, Iran M576 16 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 11 11 15 14 11 20 16 16 ND 12
Near/Middle East Mazandaran, Iran M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 12 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Omani M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Omani M576 16 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Turk M576 17 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East Turk M576 16 12 13 17 23 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East United Arab Emirates M576 16 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East United Arab Emirates M576 16 12 12 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East United Arab Emirates M576 15 12 13 17 24 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East United Arab Emirates M576 15 12 14 17 22 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Near/Middle East unknown, Iran M576 15 12 14 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 16 25 12
Near/Middle East YAZD M576 16 12 14 19 24 11 11 13 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 11 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 24 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 ND 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 16 23 12
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 13
Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia Gujarat, India M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 11
South Asia Gujarat, India M576 15 12 14 18 27 10 11 13 11 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 17 23 12
South Asia Gujarat, India M576 17 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 12 14 11 20 18 17 23 13
South Asia Gujarat, India M576 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 9 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 12 20 15 16 23 12
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 12 17 23 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 13 19 24 10 11 14 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 16 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 14 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 17 14 11 20 15 16 23 14
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 14 18 24 10 11 13 10 11 11 15 14 11 20 15 17 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 13 18 26 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 15 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 11 20 16 17 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 11 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 16 23 14
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 13 17 24 11 11 13 11 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 12
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 12 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
South Asia India (I) M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 12 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
South Asia India (I) M576 16 12 14 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 11 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
South Asia India/Andhra Pradesh M576 15 12 14 17 25 10 12 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Andhra Pradesh M576 15 12 14 19 23 10 12 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Andhra Pradesh M576 15 ND 14 19 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Andhra Pradesh M576 16 13 14 18 ND 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Hindu/New Delhi M576 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 14 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Hindu/New Delhi M576 15 12 12 17 25 11 11 13 10 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Hindu/New Delhi M576 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/Hindu/New Delhi M576 16 12 14 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 12 ND 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 16 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 15 12 14 18 25 11 12 13 10 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 16 12 14 18 25 12 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 14 12 14 17 25 ND 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia India/New Delhi M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 16 12 12 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 16 12 13 18 25 11 12 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 14 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 14 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 16 12 12 16 ND 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 14 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 16 12 14 20 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 14 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Hindu M576 16 12 12 17 25 11 11 13 14 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 13 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 13 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 13 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 13 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 12 12 18 25 11 11 13 ND 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 12 14 19 25 10 9 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 12 13 16 26 11 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 12 13 16 26 11 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 13 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 13 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 15 12 ND 31 23 10 11 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Nepal Tharu M576 16 12 13 16 26 11 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 19 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 16 25 11 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 9 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 13 12 17 25 11 11 13 11 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 13 17 26 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 14 18 25 10 12 13 10 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 13 17 24 12 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 17 12 13 18 24 10 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Pakistan M576 15 12 14 18 24 10 11 12 11 11 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND
South Asia Punjab, India M576 15 12 15 17 25 10 11 13 10 11 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
South Asia Punjab, India M576 16 12 13 19 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 19 16 16 23 12
South Asia Punjab, India M576 17 12 14 17 24 10 12 13 10 10 10 15 14 11 19 15 18 23 13
South Asia Punjab, India M576 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 12 14 14 11 20 15 17 23 13
South Asia Punjab, India M576 15 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 15 10 20 15 17 23 13
South Asia Punjab, India M576 15 12 15 17 25 10 11 13 10 11 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
South Europe Cretan M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND ND

How do we proceed?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2015 06:31

Apart from the "absent M576" conundrum - when I look at the above table I am reminded of a statement I read in one genetics paper (I have the ref somewhere) that pointed out that before a particular date - maybe before 2000 "South Asia" gene samples had a preponderance of samples from Pakistan, and very few from India. This is a huge anomaly and that same anomaly can be seen in the above table. Doing a quick approximate count I see 42 samples from India, 19 from Pakistan and 32 from Nepal. India's population is 6 times larger than Pakistan and 40 times larger than Nepal. Yet, taken together Nepal and Pk have more samples in that paper.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2015 13:25

Just saying, even if R1a... is seen to have its origin in Iranian population, it still does not mean the origin is Iran, because Iranians themselves have migrated to the region from Airyana Vaeja, according to some, which is thought to be Kashmir.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 21 Dec 2015 13:33

Just want to understand this: How do they know the 'origin'? How do they guess on the 'direction of the flow'?

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 21 Dec 2015 13:44

johneeG wrote:Just want to understand this: How do they know the 'origin'? How do they guess on the 'direction of the flow'?

Direction is normally deduced by Haplotype diversity.
The more the diversity at a place, the closer it is to the origin. Max diversity location for a haplotype is usually the point of origin itself.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Dec 2015 14:13

i think that may not be a robust assumption, indicative perhaps but not definitive

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 21 Dec 2015 14:39

Virendra wrote:
johneeG wrote:Just want to understand this: How do they know the 'origin'? How do they guess on the 'direction of the flow'?
Direction is normally deduced by Haplotype diversity.
The more the diversity at a place, the closer it is to the origin. Max diversity location for a haplotype is usually the point of origin itself.

Thanks saar.

I didn't understand the logic of this assumption. There is more diversity in American population today than Africa? Does that mean America is the origin?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2015 19:33

Virendra wrote:
johneeG wrote:Just want to understand this: How do they know the 'origin'? How do they guess on the 'direction of the flow'?
Direction is normally deduced by Haplotype diversity.
The more the diversity at a place, the closer it is to the origin. Max diversity location for a haplotype is usually the point of origin itself.

Unless I have missed it - the 2014 paper above has one or two issues when it comes to what we are discussing (or at least what I am discussing)

I tend to be focused entirely on R1a1a1 (M17 subclade) that had the greatest diversity in India. The origin and date of that mutation was given a date of about 10,000 years ago in an earlier paper by the same author. IN this paper no mention is made of the possible date of origin of R1 (or the M420 that the paper focuses on). If the earlier paper is correct about R1a1a1, then M420 should be even earlier - maybe 20 or 30,000 years ago.

There is a lot of academic interest in R1 which is very widespread, but less interest in R1a1a1 which occurs in loser nations like India, Afghanistan Central and East Europe/Russia where linguistics departments are not well funded.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Dec 2015 19:38

some problems as i see them

1. current population locations are not necessarily indicative of flow/settlement/migration histories
2. traceback in time is a function of archeological finds - and is an incomplete indicator
a. our ancestors found ancient remains and did various things to them (worshipped, destroyed, etc.)
b. not all buried remains have been found as yet (or have they?) - we just don't know

so ultimately we cannot have definitive proof, but only well advanced theories with reasonable assumptions and some degree of validation

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Dec 2015 09:20

http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/126/Luz.pdf

Here is reference to India in speech by Eleazar ,the Jewish leader at Masada where 900 Jews committed Jauhar instead of being taken as POW by Romans. Historian Josephus also mention the incident. The speech mention the fearlessness of indians in facing death and the immortality of soul which is very Indic idea. While there is no mention of Christ , it seems the inhabitants of the Israel that time were well aware of India and Indian ideas held in high esteem, worth emulating and we do see the third rate imitation of Lord Krishna and Buddha's life story later on in Christianity and then farcical attempt all the way to Mohamadan narrative.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 26 Dec 2015 12:29

^^pg 18 by PDF file, and page 40 in the book

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 26 Dec 2015 17:57

Guess whom I saw agreeing with manastaramgini on latest blog post regarding AIT/AMT:

https://twitter.com/KalavaiVenkat/statu ... 5273005056

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 27 Dec 2015 03:31

Virendra wrote:Guess whom I saw agreeing with manastaramgini on latest blog post regarding AIT/AMT:
https://twitter.com/KalavaiVenkat/statu ... 5273005056

Virendra ji,

Are you surprised?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Dec 2015 03:40

JE Menon wrote:^^pg 18 by PDF file, and page 40 in the book

Page 26/27.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2015 00:33

Jhujar wrote:http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/126/Luz.pdf

Here is reference to India in speech by Eleazar ,the Jewish leader at Masada where 900 Jews committed Jauhar instead of being taken as POW by Romans. Historian Josephus also mention the incident. The speech mention the fearlessness of indians in facing death and the immortality of soul which is very Indic idea. While there is no mention of Christ , it seems the inhabitants of the Israel that time were well aware of India and Indian ideas held in high esteem, worth emulating and we do see the third rate imitation of Lord Krishna and Buddha's life story later on in Christianity and then farcical attempt all the way to Mohamadan narrative.

Jhujar for you!

Subhash Kak on Jews are from India?

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/was-aris ... jews-true/

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Dec 2015 07:55

ramana wrote:
Jhujar wrote:http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/126/Luz.pdf
Jhujar for you!
Subhash Kak on Jews are from India?
http://swarajyamag.com/culture/was-aris ... jews-true/

There is You tube video of one big honcho Rabbi talking about death and immortality of Soul which is always pure and in image of divine. I literally thought he was lecturing about Vedantic concepts.
Here it is. His name if Rabbi Fried Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzFUXKk2B4I

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Dec 2015 09:12

Virendra wrote:Guess whom I saw agreeing with manastaramgini on latest blog post regarding AIT/AMT:
https://twitter.com/KalavaiVenkat/statu ... 5273005056

Well, unless the latest crop of genetics papers are debunked, my guess is it will be "settled" again.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 30 Dec 2015 14:57

Nilesh Oak wrote:
Virendra wrote:Guess whom I saw agreeing with manastaramgini on latest blog post regarding AIT/AMT:
https://twitter.com/KalavaiVenkat/statu ... 5273005056
Virendra ji,

Are you surprised?

Slightly, yes. Because Kalavai Venkat had countered (effectively) what Romilla Thapar and leftist brigade spawns in academia as leftist history.
In a way, this turns out to be another Manastaramgini kinda case ..
Subconscious assumption on my part I guess

Edit : Check this out, he was clearly opposing AIT - http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/7290.shtml

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2015 16:32

I bet neither of them reads or understands genetics papers

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 30 Dec 2015 17:59

Dear sirs,
Quote - 'Capt. Ajit VadakayilDecember 5, 2015 at 8:27 AM
WHEN KHATTI LAXMI WENT TO KOHLAPUR , CHITPAVAN JEWS NAY BRAHMINS OF ROTHSHILD TOOK CARE OF HER--MAJJA HAI. OH PANDURANGAAAAAAA !
I could not but wonder that in his blog the good captain has rather derided very cussedly called the Maharashtrian Chitpawan Konkanastha Brahman
community regarded very highly for their most firebrand kind of nationalistic ferver and deeds in shaping the history of this nation time and again as Jews. I do not know whether this subject is OT here but since the topic is out of India I chose to post it here.
Could any guru/gurus throw some light on the veracity of this. Any genetic study or a historical phenomenon has affirmed such a fact.
Because we all think that AIT is a proven bunkum now and accetped grudgingly albeit indirectly by its proponents like Romila Thapar.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Dec 2015 19:20

shiv wrote:I bet neither of them reads or understands genetics papers

Manasataramgini?
Well, he is very much into evolutionary biology:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/d ... xcursions/

PS: a 2009 article:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2 ... ory-again/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2015 20:08

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:I bet neither of them reads or understands genetics papers
Manasataramgini?
Well, he is very much into evolutionary biology:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/d ... xcursions/

PS: a 2009 article:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2 ... ory-again/

Frankly Arun I have always found the man to be a verbose bullshitter. If I am also a verbose bullshitter, it does not make him any better. The writing is part rhetoric designed to please and warm the cockles of the hearts of a paertciual Indian constituency. And a ther is bit of (pseudo)science thrown in - no different from linguists and suchlike. It reminds me of people like Wendy Doniger, Arudhati Roy and Witzel. Facts, hypotheses and fiction are mixed up in intense rhetoric that requires very tedious and detailed rebuttal. It is better to counter such types with a large volume work that says something different of one does not agree and let them face the problem of rebuttal.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 30 Dec 2015 21:41

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Manasataramgini?
Well, he is very much into evolutionary biology:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/d ... xcursions/

PS: a 2009 article:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2 ... ory-again/
Frankly Arun I have always found the man to be a verbose bullshitter. If I am also a verbose bullshitter, it does not make him any better. The writing is part rhetoric designed to please and warm the cockles of the hearts of a paertciual Indian constituency. And a ther is bit of (pseudo)science thrown in - no different from linguists and suchlike. It reminds me of people like Wendy Doniger, Arudhati Roy and Witzel. Facts, hypotheses and fiction are mixed up in intense rhetoric that requires very tedious and detailed rebuttal. It is better to counter such types with a large volume work that says something different of one does not agree and let them face the problem of rebuttal.

I agree 108%. Of course I would not able to summarize it so eloquently, as done by Shiv ji.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Dec 2015 02:32

Well, that's fine - I don't know manasataramgini/somasushma well.

The essential thing that has to be pinned down is the geographic area and era of origin of the Y-Chromosome R1a1 (M17) haplogroup. Research upto around 2013 tended to favor an Indian origin; now the pendulum seems to be swinging back to an out-of-India origin. I guess we need to stay on top of the published results, and create the large volume work for everyone else to try to rebut.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 07:00

A_Gupta wrote:Well, that's fine - I don't know manasataramgini/somasushma well.

The essential thing that has to be pinned down is the geographic area and era of origin of the Y-Chromosome R1a1 (M17) haplogroup. Research upto around 2013 tended to favor an Indian origin; now the pendulum seems to be swinging back to an out-of-India origin. I guess we need to stay on top of the published results, and create the large volume work for everyone else to try to rebut.

Arun I can see no such pendulum swing.

M 17 is just one small link in the chain. Of course I am convinced because I have essentially finished writing what appears to me to be two short books. My real problem is to connect them up and make one book that is readable on this issue.

There are basically only two contenders for indicating origins. One is language and as far as I am concerned there is overwhelming linguistic evidence against any AIT in the last 5000 years which people will no doubt see when I eventually make my book public. The genetic evidence goes beyond M 17.

The Manasataramgini guy just beats about the bush and writes stuff that is difficult to read and he never really goes into detail What he publishes looks like a lot of detail to dazzle the reader but it often has little relevance, it only obfuscates the fact that he reaches conclusions without saying why.

The second link you have posted above is full of such bullshit and conclusions that he will not be able to prove - but he puts in such a large volume of bullshit and has so many followers from his pseudo-scientific "patriotism" that this posts are spread far and wide by those who get a warm fuzzy.

I would be very cautious about taking that man's writing seriously, bu as always it is the reader's choice and no one needs to listn to me. The truth will out either way - it only gets delayed by bullshitters

If anyone is really interested, here is some homework derived from what this guy manasatarmgini says:
https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2 ... ory-again/

3) However, if one looks at uni-parental markers we see the following pattern:
3.1- The Y-chromosomal affinities of Indians are greater to Western-Eurasian than Eastern Eurasians.
<snip>
4) Amongst Indians, irrespective of whether one looks at uniparental or biparental markers, the upper castes have greater affinity to Western Eurasians than to Eastern Eurasians. But this effect is most pronounced for Y-chromosomal data. Amongst Indians, highest affinity to Eastern Eurasians is seen only amongst tribals.

Now please locate the genetics papers that prove this as conclusively as the man claims either from the material he has posted or from elsewhere.

I will not even bother trying to rebut the sentence by sentence bullshit that he writes.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 31 Dec 2015 08:28

There are some obvious problems with genetic evidence, not limited to:
* As said above, AIT hasn't been proven for hundreds of years even when imperial power was pushing it in classrooms as legit subject.
* Genetics can't prove migration at all, to begin with, so it is a mere study to clean out hindrances to preconceived notions.
* If one of the markers shows some trend, what does it mean about changes in its own history? What markers were in minority/majority where, and given the above point, the History of society(post invasions) begins nowhere except from recorded books ie back to square 1, right where AIT was.
* Parts where some markers form links, without any consequences to usual pushing/pulling of narrative. Like studies that aren't popular, will such info be pushed to nowhere, and meaning of such independent narratives on popular material.
* Who all are leading and setting academic (standards) models, and how are these exhaustively scrutinized and legitimized.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 09:51

Even if you leave out genetics there is powerful linguistic evidence against AIT. AIT has been constructed by specifically concocting "evidence" and leaving out material that is available, knowing that most people will not check it out.

Destroying or ignoring available records goes right back to the early years of Christubhaktism and Greek writings that do not fit in with the worldview promoted by the Church has simply been ignored, sidelined or destroyed. That is the same thing that has been done to Hindu and Buddhist records of past events

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 31 Dec 2015 10:17

johneeG wrote:The topic of DNA based genealogy mapping comes up in this thread many times. So, I was trying to understand this concept recently. Here is noob understanding so far:

Mainly, there seem to be two markers in DNA testing:
DNA Marker 1: Y Chromosome which is supposedly passed on from Father to son(not to daughter).
DNA Marker 2: Mitochondrial chromosome passed on by the mother to all her children(son & daughter).

That means, it is not possible to find the father of a daughter from genetic DNA testing because the daughter does not have the Y chromosome of the father. And women's DNA seems to be spread wider because all the kids inherit it. (Now, that itself raises some doubt in my mind about this field. I think all kids inherit the qualities from both parents and if the DNA is not able to study this aspect then it means the field has many shortcomings. The world is filled with daughters who look like their fathers).

So, lets say a person has 4 grandparents. Then, one can find the paternal grandfather using Y chromosome. Maternal grandmother and paternal grandmother both have contributed mitochondria thing. So, there is some chance of finding it, perhaps. But, one can't find the maternal grandfather with this DNA thing. Now, out of 4 grandparents: 1 can be found with certainty. 2 can be found with good probability. 1 can't be found.

But, as we go back in time, this becomes less and less effective. Because the number of ancestors keeps rising at each generation.

In 815 CE, 1000 Billion ancestors of a single person in 2015 CE. And it keeps doubling because every person has 2 parents and each of those parents has 2 more parents and so on. The numbers are so huge that I don't know how it adds up. To give an idea, the present population of the world is 7 Billion. It seems as If I am missing something but I don't know what I am missing. If I am making some mistake please point out.

Broadly, it seems that the number of ancestors would be too large for even a single person as we go back in time and there seems to a total mixing making everyone relative of each other. So, it seems funny that people talk about AIT or something else based on these markers which become less probabilistic and totally mixed up as we go back in time. Only one ancestor can be found with certainty based on Y chromosome using DNA testing. Mitochondria is passed by every female ancestor, so given the huge number of ancestors , one can be sure that all sorts of Mitochondria will be there.

johneeG wrote: About the ancestors and the increasing number:
I think it only makes sense if people are marrying and inter-marrying. Most probably people are marrying cousins(first removed to 4th removed). For example, in MB story, Kunthi is the sister of Krushna's father. Kunthi is the aunt of Krushna. Krushna's sister Subhadhra married Arjuna who is the son of Kunthi. So, Arjuna and Subhadhra are cousins and yet married. I think most of the marriages were of this kind.

Another system would be to give daughter to a family and in return obtained a daughter-in-law from the same family.

Even then, there would be too much mixing because the number of descendents would be large who would marry all over the place. So, overall, I think most of these people married and mixed together and are related to each other. So, in a large timeframe, I think these probabilistic models won't work based on small mutations. These methods may work in a small time-frame of 500-1000 years if endogamy is assumed. But, endogamy is easy to assume and difficult to implement in any society at any time-frame. Thats why we have so many Jaathis which keep increasing in number and keep mutating.

My understanding of why Genealogical field is irrelevant to this particular issue regardless of whether it supports OIT or AIT:
a) Only the male ancestor of a male can be determined with accuracy. Male ancestors of a female cannot be determined. So, basically, only one grandparent can be determined with accuracy. A person has 3 other grandparents and therefore, determining a single grandparent doesn't prove anything. Moreover, we are not even talking about direct grandparent, but some great great ancestor. There would be several great great ancestors. Determining one out of so many ancestors means zilch.
b) I think all kids inherit the qualities from both parents and if the DNA is not able to study this aspect then it means the field has many shortcomings. The world is filled with daughters who look like their fathers
c) Determining female ancestors becomes a game of percentages and probability. And it becomes less effective as the size and timelines increase. Given that we are dealing with huge timelines and large populations, this is absolutely useless.
d) Each individual has huge number of ancestors. Every individual has two parents. Each parent has two more parents and so on. It essentially means that everyone is connected to all others in someway. So, there will always be some amount of match between any two samples. Thats why they have to depend on the percentages. And the difference in percentages will be in decimals.
e) The guesstimates are made based on very small samples compared to the populations under the study. So, these guesstimates can be ignored safely.
f) At best, genealogical study can show if there is similarity between the groups or individuals. They don't show the direction of flow or the timeperiods.

I think genealogical field is useful when we are dealing with small size of groups and small timelines(maybe 100-200 yrs, alright maybe even a 1000yrs). But, when they try to guesstimate for more than 1000 yrs back for huge populations and they even try to guess the direction of flow and timelines, then I think they are stretching it.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Dec 2015 10:28

Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 31 Dec 2015 10:41

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

The study of the genetics and archaeogenetics of the ethnic groups of South Asia aims at uncovering these groups' genetic history. The geographic position of India makes Indian populations important for the study of the early dispersal of all human populations on the Eurasian continent.

Studies based on mtDNA variation have reported genetic unity across various Indian sub–populations.[1][2][3][4] Conclusions of studies based on Y Chromosome variation and Autosomal DNA variation have been varied, although many researchers argue that most of the ancestral nodes of the phylogenetic tree of all the mtDNA types originated in the subcontinent. Recent genome studies appear to show that most South Asians are descendants of two major ancestral components, one restricted to South Asia and the other component shared with Central Asia, West Asia and Europe.[5][6]

It has been found that the ancestral node of the phylogenetic tree of all the mtDNA types typically found in Central Asia, the West Asia and Europe are also to be found in South Asia at relatively high frequencies. The inferred divergence of this common ancestral node is estimated to have occurred slightly less than 50,000 years ago.[7] In India the major maternal lineages, or mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups, are M, R and U, whose coalescence times have been approximated to 50,000 BP.[7]

The major paternal lineages represented by Y chromosomes are haplogroups R1a1, R2, H, L and J2.[8] Many researchers have argued that Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a1 (M17) is of autochthonous Indian origin.

This whole study of ancient genealogies seems to be dependent on Indian populations. If Indian population is the common link of the world populations, then that itself proves OIT.

If today, India has a perfect geographic position to act as a link to Eurasia, then wouldn't that be true in the past as well?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 13:42

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Arun I can't comment unless I read all the source papers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 13:56

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Looking through the papers one by one. The first one hit Shri Manasataramgini for a six
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... -4263-6_11

Also the structure of Asian dominant haplogroup M in India differs profoundly from that of other Asian populations. Around 10% of Indian mtDNAs are found around a phylogenetically crucial node—R*—which is ancestral to more than 90% of typically European mtDNAs and also to a portion of Asian specific mtDNA lineages such as haplogroups B and F. Coalescence estimates, calculated separately for these three major clusters in India, indicate a major radiation of mtDNA lineages starting approximately 50,000 years ago. The fraction of lineages attributable to a recent influx of maternal genes either from eastern or western Eurasia is below 10%. Furthermore, their spread does not correlate with the spread of the Sanskrit-and Dravidian-based languages in India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 14:02

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Second paper also hits Shri Manasataramgini for a six wrt caste and tribal genetics
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 2F2.f03t04

The reconstruction of mtDNA haplogroups showed that both the caste and tribal populations share similar branches of the tree. Also, the coalescence age estimation of caste and tribal populations suggests the persistence of maternal lineages with their root in early late Pleistocene.

Late Pleistocene is more than 12000 years ago

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 14:32

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Link 4 - shocking bullshit from Antrhopologists that says "Dravidians prefer consanguineous marriages and Indo Europeans do not"

Link 5: Metapalu paper has been discussed here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3234374/
This is the paper that point out that older genetic papers over represented Pakistani populations and under represented Indians:

Genome-wide scans on the Human genome diversity panel (HGDP) data involving 51 global populations have revealed that South Asia, represented by Pakistani populations, shares most signals of recent positive selection with populations from Europe, the Near East, and North Africa.23 Given the environmental differences between Europe and Pakistan and the possible depth of human habitation in South Asia, this result is surprising, but considering the lack of Indian data it remains to be determined whether South Asian-specific signals of positive selection do exist.

This is the paper from which Manasataramgini has derived some data

. Importantly, the Pakistani (Indus Valley) populations differ substantially from most of the Indian populations and show comparably low genetic differentiation from European, Near Eastern, Caucasian, and Indian populations. In agreement with previous Y-chromosome studies, the Brahmin and Kshatriya from Uttar Pradesh stand out by being closer to Pakistani and West Eurasian populations than to other Indian populations from the same geographic area

BUT!! He has missed the following fact - the bias is because of over representation of Pakistanis

However, when we compare the fraction of outlying Indian signals also found in European or East Asian populations to the fraction of outlying Pakistani signals shared with the same regions, we find Pakistan consistently appearing markedly more similar to West Eurasian than to Indian populations (Figure 3). This result remains when we examine signals of recent positive selection in north and south India separately. Combined with our ADMIXTURE and PCA results, this is powerful evidence that Pakistan is a poor proxy for South Asian genetic diversity, despite having often fulfilled this role in previous publications.

I have posted thus para before on this forum

our current results indicate that the often debated episode of South Asian prehistory, the putative Indo-Aryan migration 3,500 years ago falls well within the limits of our haplotype-based approach. We found no regional diversity differences associated with k5 at K = 8. Thus, regardless of where this component was from (the Caucasus, Near East, Indus Valley, or Central Asia), its spread to other regions must have occurred well before our detection limits at 12,500 years. Accordingly, the introduction of k5 to South Asia cannot be explained by recent gene flow, such as the hypothetical Indo-Aryan migration

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 14:35

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Links 6 and 7 are papers I have and have posted and discussed here. Both go against AIT

Link 9 is a good one
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002 ... %2962353-2

The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000–15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture.

Dravidian Language speaking population WERE NOT driven from the Indus valley by invaders. There is no evidence of invasion ot migration in the last 10-15000 years

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 14:51

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Link 8

Check the Y-Haplogroup colours of India with rest of the world:
http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/W ... psMaps.pdf
1. "H" (black) is mostly in India, IE and Dravidian language speakers
2. R1b (red) from Western Europe is absent in India
3."L" (grey) present in IE and Dravdian speakers in equal amounts but almost nil in non Indians
4. R1a (yellow) in IE and Dravidian speakers - but much less in Dravdian spakers. Only R1A of IE speakers is similar to R1a in E. Europe
5. "J" (green) is present in IE and Dravidian Indians. More in the latter. J is present among Turks and Arabs

India is unique in having large amounts of L (grey) and H (black)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 14:54

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,
How good is the Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_ ... South_Asia ?

Link 10 is a massive kick up Manasataramgini butt
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006PNAS..103..843S

The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward. The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.

I am bored now. If all the above are not enough, I will visit every link on the Wiki page and comment.

In due course..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 15:02

One last link (11 on Wiki)

Shri Manasataramgini has taken much from this 2006 paper - but at least three of the authors of this paper (Thangaraj Chaubey and Lalji Singh) have published later papers as first author (discussed on here) that tear down the hypotheses suggested here. This paper does not say that AIT occurred. It speculates on AIT as a possible explanation. Manasataramgini however uses this 2006 data to assert that AIT occurred. That has been conclusivey trashed by a host of later papers from 2010 onwards. In particular it was the discovery of "ANI" and "ASI" genes whose admixture was more than 12,000 years ago (as linked higher up) and the fact that even the lowest caste and tribal groups of Dravidian speaking India share ANI genes with the highest caste groups of IE speaking India, and that the ANI/ASI mix of upper caste Dravidian speakers was more akin to that of lower caste IE speakers - making caste a poor marker of imported European genes.

http://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/artic ... -2156-7-42

No significant difference was observed in the mitochondrial DNA between Indian tribal and caste populations, except for the presence of a higher frequency of west Eurasian-specific haplogroups in the higher castes, mostly in the north western part of India.

There is much sociological self flagellation in that 2006 paper - much of it demolished by Balu

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 31 Dec 2015 16:26

Thanks doc, above series of posts are a goldmine in themselves for laymen who don't want to dig into the finer points of DNA based population movement analysis as far as the Indian subcontinent is concerned.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 01 Jan 2016 00:30

Yes, many thanks, doc!