LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 06:06

So both competetiors didn't make the grade yet its being touted as if the DAC made a command decision!
And the technical panel made some recommendations. What could that be? Buy now and get an new engine later?

I guess the Augusta deal blowback has developed cold feet.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Feb 2013 06:49

a) LUH deal has a desi alternative in HAL, so it is good that this deal was scrapped

b) For the Westland choppers deal, other than spurious requirements it really didn't beat its other competitor, the S-92, while the JV between Sikorsky & TATA claims that most of the S-92 chopper is manufactured in India which probably already meets the offsets requirements

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Feb 2013 23:08

A question for those in the know of the LCH program - was the skid option ever evaluated? The Army & Airforce Dhruv use skids.

1. Skids typically weigh lighter than landing gear. I was given to understand LCH prototypes does require weight reduction. Dhruv dollies could be used for ground handling.
2. Since the LCH would deliberately get into harms way, a skid is much more robust than rubber & hydraulic landing gear.
3. Retractable wheels offer less drag, but I'm not sure of the drag advantages of a fixed landing gear over skids.

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Feb 2013 23:11

What's wron with ALH for VVIP use. Hal can always budget for bribes.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2013 23:33

too small.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2013 00:01

what are the functional requirements for VVIP? meaning not from personal use, but what purpose they will be put to use? any links or provide some list of areas of usage?

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Feb 2013 00:16

^ To ostensibly visit the flood and drought affected regions and then wave their hands in a characteristic fashion to flash loose tricep muscle and then throw a few near expiry food packets rotting in PDS silos.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 17 Feb 2013 01:12

tsarkar wrote:A question for those in the know of the LCH program - was the skid option ever evaluated? The Army & Airforce Dhruv use skids.

1. Skids typically weigh lighter than landing gear. I was given to understand LCH prototypes does require weight reduction. Dhruv dollies could be used for ground handling.
2. Since the LCH would deliberately get into harms way, a skid is much more robust than rubber & hydraulic landing gear.
3. Retractable wheels offer less drag, but I'm not sure of the drag advantages of a fixed landing gear over skids.

The LCH has much higher crash worthiness requirements than the Dhruv - the main landing gear oleos are used to absorb the impact of a crash, and are an important part of the design to meet that requirement.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Feb 2013 02:03

SaiK wrote:what are the functional requirements for VVIP? meaning not from personal use, but what purpose they will be put to use? any links or provide some list of areas of usage?

long range, self defense, and secure comms, cupboard for chai-biskoot storage

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2013 03:34

^all that so far said can be handled by a modified dhruv. Instead 15 babooze and chelas in a pack, they can very pack couple of dhruvs and increase the order for indic systems. IT IS A SHAME that babooze don't buy indic systems, when ready to be used. All it takes is make it cozy for their air drops, and flood visits.

imho, the "too small" notion is some marketing ploy by some firang nation or baboo-middlemen corruption setup clout. we easily fall prey into such DDMities and well driven by these firang ajints.

let me say this: Mahatma Gandhi if he was to be alive now, would have preferred dhruv. I want to see how many babooze now wants it?

vic · Post by **vic** » 17 Feb 2013 07:32

Rudra has all self defense mechanisms & comms that might be needed by a VVIP help. Plus it can go where no other helo can ie at 6500m height. We only need some foreign middle men to sell it to Indian VVIPs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2013 08:05

the PM/Presidents entourage would be around 75-100 people.
since all these helis are based in Palam and he needs to do some flood survey in assam or a drought survey in TN, atleast 3 helis and 1 backup would need to be flown all the way beforehand at huge cost , used for the day and flown back.

its just a huge waste of money imo. for that matter the 40+ helis in the POTUS VVIP sqdn is also a big waste but atleast they can print more dollars without affecting low inflation, we cant.

vic · Post by **vic** » 17 Feb 2013 08:16

When requirement of VVIP helo was launched, ALH was not around or was in it's infancy. Now ordering Rs. 5000 crore of useless junk says a lot about our honest procurement system.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Feb 2013 08:27

somebody proposing Mi-17v5s

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 12782.aspx

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 17 Feb 2013 09:11

vic wrote:When requirement of VVIP helo was launched, ALH was not around or was in it's infancy. Now ordering Rs. 5000 crore of useless junk says a lot about our honest procurement system.

I was wondering that as to why not use ALH for VVIP transport instead of expensive foreign choppers? Unfortunately our babus and military higher ups trust foreign maal more than indian products.

They probably don't know that india's inability to manufacture even the most basic things is making India a huge international laughing stock.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 17 Feb 2013 11:45

abhishek-nayak wrote:
vic wrote:When requirement of VVIP helo was launched, ALH was not around or was in it's infancy. Now ordering Rs. 5000 crore of useless junk says a lot about our honest procurement system.

I was wondering that as to why not use ALH for VVIP transport instead of expensive foreign choppers? Unfortunately our babus and military higher ups trust foreign maal more than indian products.

They probably don't know that india's inability to manufacture even the most basic things is making India a huge international laughing stock.

Meanwhile somewhere on the other part of the world:
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2013/02/n ... falls.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Feb 2013 12:11

I posted earlier,in fact after the last air show,the excellent VVIP MI-17Vs which were on display-models and brochures.Styling inside very European.True,the AW-101 is in a diff. class,3 engined,but the MI-17Vs would do very well,after all what kind of helo does Putin or Medvedev use? The helos are also in large order for our high-alt duties too.Adding on the bells and whistles of anti-air,commns eqpt., and EW defences isn't a major problem.

In fact after this scam,two countries will benefit the most.The US and Russia.Russia because it will be easy to order "more of the same",plus no scandals ever come out of Russia and rarely from the US too,when it is the govts. in the main who are promoting the sales through their country's companies,unlike the EU where companies take the lead and are supported by their political/bureaucrat establishment,Britain one country where its leadership openly bats for its products.

Israel will too because of its ability to keep any kickbacks a secret.The allegations about Barak where Uncle George and Adm.Sushil Kumar were targeted ,was later found to be false after RTI found that DRDO official's were behind the accusations! This is because the DRDO at that time were pushing hard for a turkey called "Trishul",which repeatedly failed in trials.The poor honest officer who supposedly evaluated Barak and recommended it (now thankfully on most of our major warships),resisting the DRDO's attempt to shove Trishul down the IN's throat, allegedly lost his promotion.I'm not sure but I think he later got a medal for his efforts.

France will be in a tricky situ as Cameron is a-callling to still try and sell the Eurofarter to replace Rafale.
Notwithstanding the AW scandal,the govt./DM of the day must go ahead fearlessly and concentrate on finalising long-pending def. acquisitions.After all even the UPA-1 finalised the Scorpene deal at extra cost after the NDA lost.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2013 12:23

Given the huge number of new build mi17v on order, we can easily take 6 off that number or just order 6 more in vip config be done with it. But such a deal would not involve any additional kickback so this separate deal had to be done.

Hope to god the deal is scrapped and the three we received can be sold off on world market.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 17 Feb 2013 12:36

Singha wrote:Given the huge number of new build mi17v on order, we can easily take 6 off that number or just order 6 more in vip config be done with it. But such a deal would not involve any additional kickback so this separate deal had to be done.

Hope to god the deal is scrapped and the three we received can be sold off on world market.

Why can't we continue using them ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2013 12:38

For just 3 airframes why setup a whole new set of spares, ground crew , trained pilots....no point. These are not some niche plane filling a strategic role like mi26

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 17 Feb 2013 13:17

Mi-17v5 with Dilip chabria will fulfill the void i think.

Hope the 3 delivered do not meet the fate of the 21 delivered by westland in 1986 which are now rotting in the backyard of some airport. However with the taint no political party will dare use them.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... s-old.html

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Feb 2013 22:47

vasu raya wrote:a) LUH deal has a desi alternative in HAL, so it is good that this deal was scrapped

+1

b) For the Westland choppers deal, other than spurious requirements it really didn't beat its other competitor, the S-92, while the JV between Sikorsky & TATA claims that most of the S-92 chopper is manufactured in India which probably already meets the offsets requirements

I very much doubt that, Any open source information on it? Last I heard it only the "cabin"(fancy word for upholstery?) is made here.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Feb 2013 22:48

Rahul M wrote:too small.

Why?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Feb 2013 23:05

abhik wrote:Quote:
b) For the Westland choppers deal, other than spurious requirements it really didn't beat its other competitor, the S-92, while the JV between Sikorsky & TATA claims that most of the S-92 chopper is manufactured in India which probably already meets the offsets requirements
I very much doubt that, Any open source information on it? Last I heard it only the "cabin"(fancy word for upholstery?) is made here.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/Sikorsky-T ... /1/18.html

"The Sikorsky-TASL Joint Venture has plans of developing our facility in Hyderabad as hub of our S-92 helicopter production and once we get the defence license, we will start producing 80 per cent of the content of the chopper there," Sikorsky India head Air Vice Marshal (retd) A J S Walia told PTI here.

Obviously engines are not local, wonder why HAL doesn't have a helicopter engine dev. program? if it did have some aero-engine program that predates the GTRE

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2013 23:09

197 LUH deal cancelled.. Pretty cool. HAL has a great product and the offering is awesome. Army can order extra ALH to tide over any loss of numbers till the LUH from HAL comes online. So perhaps both the ALH/LUH segment will be closed to import for ever!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Feb 2013 23:43

Philip wrote:I posted earlier,in fact after the last air show,the excellent VVIP MI-17Vs which were on display-models and brochures.Styling inside very European.True,the AW-101 is in a diff. class,3 engined,but the MI-17Vs would do very well,after all what kind of helo does Putin or Medvedev use? The helos are also in large order for our high-alt duties too.Adding on the bells and whistles of anti-air,commns eqpt., and EW defences isn't a major problem.

In fact after this scam,two countries will benefit the most.The US and Russia.Russia because it will be easy to order "more of the same",plus no scandals ever come out of Russia and rarely from the US too,when it is the govts. in the main who are promoting the sales through their country's companies,unlike the EU where companies take the lead and are supported by their political/bureaucrat establishment,Britain one country where its leadership openly bats for its products.

Israel will too because of its ability to keep any kickbacks a secret.The allegations about Barak where Uncle George and Adm.Sushil Kumar were targeted ,was later found to be false after RTI found that DRDO official's were behind the accusations! This is because the DRDO at that time were pushing hard for a turkey called "Trishul",which repeatedly failed in trials.The poor honest officer who supposedly evaluated Barak and recommended it (now thankfully on most of our major warships),resisting the DRDO's attempt to shove Trishul down the IN's throat, allegedly lost his promotion.I'm not sure but I think he later got a medal for his efforts.

France will be in a tricky situ as Cameron is a-callling to still try and sell the Eurofarter to replace Rafale.
Notwithstanding the AW scandal,the govt./DM of the day must go ahead fearlessly and concentrate on finalising long-pending def. acquisitions.After all even the UPA-1 finalised the Scorpene deal at extra cost after the NDA lost.

Philip,

Russian hardware are subpar and expansive as evident from all the global contests in India they participated and lost either on performance and/or cost. Their offerings are hard to maintain, post product support is sketchy and operating cost is ridiculous. Russian helicopter for VVIP role could not meet ASQR on 7 mandatory parameters so how can anyone think it’s an option is beyond me. Their attack and heavy lift helicopters were found to be more expansive than much more sophisticated American offerings. Mig 35 couldn't meet minimum performance requirement for MMRCA, actually it fared worst if you believe the rumors flying. They can't win a contract in Indian market except on the political/single-vendor factors/situations.

USSR is gone, with it is gone the golden era of cheap, rugged weapons with built-in military-political support. We paid (and still paying) handsomely by buying from them exclusively and supporting their political/military cause for decades in return.

Russian weapons, or anything made in Russia, are hardly competitive on world stage in the 21st century. Only (well paid) advantage India still gets from Russia is in strategic field where no one else will sell us but Russian's are willing to share whatever is left from their good old superpower days. In next few years Russian will not be a major source of weapons for Indian armed forces and older generation of Indians need to get out of the romance of the era gone by and accept the hard realities of the day!
In coming years, Russia will drift more towards China and Pakistan leaving a vacuum that would need to be filled with American, European, Asian and most importantly Indian alternatives.
As an Indian we should look after the needs and interests of our nation first, than our friends like Russia and last and least worry about punishing American/EU for past deeds/situations

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Feb 2013 23:46

vasu raya wrote:
abhik wrote:Quote:
b) For the Westland choppers deal, other than spurious requirements it really didn't beat its other competitor, the S-92, while the JV between Sikorsky & TATA claims that most of the S-92 chopper is manufactured in India which probably already meets the offsets requirements
I very much doubt that, Any open source information on it? Last I heard it only the "cabin"(fancy word for upholstery?) is made here.
http://www.brahmand.com/news/Sikorsky-T ... /1/18.html

"The Sikorsky-TASL Joint Venture has plans of developing our facility in Hyderabad as hub of our S-92 helicopter production and once we get the defence license, we will start producing 80 per cent of the content of the chopper there," Sikorsky India head Air Vice Marshal (retd) A J S Walia told PTI here.

I'd take it with a ton of salt. Most deals such as these are contingent on the company winning some tender i.e. it is basically offsets.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Feb 2013 23:58

Why not a souped up Dhruv for VVIP duties? It's got two shakti engines that give it best high altitude performance in the world! Buy a few Mi17 for show-off duties and show some pride in inducting a few home grown udan khatola for desi VVIPS.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Feb 2013 00:45

abhik, It is most likely contingent upon the VVIP tender and the Navy tender etc., so if we tend to dismiss this stuff as building cabins only, why not let HAL move up the value chain by focusing on heli engines and provisioning airframes from the private sector?

Mi-17s recently inducted might upgrade with these engines during their MLU if we want to justify the investment in chopper aero engines

One could sanction proof Naval choppers in future

and if we get too enthusiastic, we can have a turboprop version of MTA as a civilian variant and/or as a desi hawkeye

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Feb 2013 00:58

Dhruv has already shown its mettle. Two unfortunate crash landings left people safe in the cabin and nobody was injured. Apparently the inquiry commission pointed out that any other helicopter, the engine and rotor assembly would have crashed into the cabin, crushing the people inside.

So a souped up Dhruv would be fit for VVIP duties, apparently it is ferrying Ecuadorian president!!

But our netas might prefer a bigger cabin, to accomodate all sidekicks and SPG. Apparently it can carry 12 troops. Which means, it can carry just one neta and his ego, with no space left for his protection detail. After all, they need more space and luxury, the kind that our troops can do without

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 01:04

any other country will try to use its own product if available even if it is a tad less super sized

Doesn't Putin use Mils ??

but our netas are a breed apart

Same with the rows of armored BMWs

seriously a decade plus ago it wasr ambys

surely they can find a Tata or mahindra to up armor and luxurify one of their large offerings

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 18 Feb 2013 01:19

abhik wrote:
abhik wrote:Quote:
b) For the Westland choppers deal, other than spurious requirements it really didn't beat its other competitor, the S-92, while the JV between Sikorsky & TATA claims that most of the S-92 chopper is manufactured in India which probably already meets the offsets requirements
I very much doubt that, Any open source information on it? Last I heard it only the "cabin"(fancy word for upholstery?) is made here.
http://www.brahmand.com/news/Sikorsky-T ... /1/18.html

I'd take it with a ton of salt. Most deals such as these are contingent on the company winning some tender i.e. it is basically offsets.

According to this link, TATA actually made the airframe and not the cabin.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 16449.aspx

The first Sikorsky S-92 - a large, twin-engine helicopter that can be used for both civil and military purposes - with a Made-in-India airframe is now flying in Brazil.

TATA is also making center wing boxes for C130 as well as composite parts for LCA.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2013 04:00

The SPG for security reasons wants the chopper to have standing headroom, which the dhruv will not have.
There is a need for a bigger, longer haul chopper that can accommodate more people. The Mi-17s are fine, except that I guess they don't have the security suites, maneoverability that the AW 101 has.
The AW 101 is probably the best out there, but it is hugely expensive. The US also wanted this chopper for Marine 1 duties, but Ombaba during his cost cutting days, decided against an immediate procurement - so Marine 1s still fly the souped up vip Blackhawks

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 04:06

The SPG for security reasons wants the chopper to have standing headroom, which the dhruv will not have.

do we have standing room in the BMWs??

what does this standing room buy you? its barely going to be enough -

seems some red herring to bring the augusta in

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2013 04:25

The Agusta is good and that can't be denied.
I wish HAL had something in that size, since we don't.

The issue is why do these dilli billies take bribes?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 04:47

let our netas manage with less

there is no need for world class stuff for them

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2013 07:28

The spg through long association has become a family security detail for the gandhis. Couple of top spg guys even left the service and came back as member of the yuvarajs core logistical team per a magazine article.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Feb 2013 23:17

Gurneesh wrote: According to this link, TATA actually made the airframe and not the cabin.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 16449.aspx

The first Sikorsky S-92 - a large, twin-engine helicopter that can be used for both civil and military purposes - with a Made-in-India airframe is now flying in Brazil.
TATA is also making center wing boxes for C130 as well as composite parts for LCA.

Gurneesh-ji, there is a lot of obfuscation, they never directly explain what parts they are manufacturing(as opposed to screw-driver assembling), how much value addition they are doing etc (Though half of it may be the DDM).
The article seems to suggest that a joint venture company(TARA) makes 4300 parts(That they are important electronics, critical engine parts or if they are just nuts, bolts and wires is not specified). Then TASL, makes the "cabins"(what exactly constitutes a cabin?), and then "fits them with these components"(screw driver assembly?). Rest of the article is Sikorsky peddling their helicopters to the military.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Feb 2013 23:29

vasu raya wrote:abhik, It is most likely contingent upon the VVIP tender and the Navy tender etc., so if we tend to dismiss this stuff as building cabins only, why not let HAL move up the value chain by focusing on heli engines and provisioning airframes from the private sector?

Skrew-driver assembly has been the primary cause of our pathetic indigenous defence capability. I feel the only way to rectify this would be to let HAL(and other DPSUs) only manufacture equipment which they or DRDO has developed. And if any thing has to be imported let the foreign OEMs do the assembly in their home country but with the condition that 30-50%(the offset) of the components by value be manufactured in India. This will boost the defence SME sector which is really the heart of any Hi-Tech defence industry.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2013 23:38

Question: the LCH will have both the EO pod & the Helmet mounted targeting system

a) Is it the WSO or the Pilot's helmet? I am guessing its the former

b) Are the rockets and guns slaved to the Helmet or the EO pod? If its the former, does it mean that the EO pod is used more for scanning & the fire control is done via the HMS?

Thanks in advance