LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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rohitvats
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

nik wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Has it occurred to you that if it is even suspected that crash is due to some mechanical failure, then the entire fleet needs to be grounded. And the cause ascertained on downed aircraft. IA operates 5 squadrons of ALH and more than 3 times are on order between IA and IAF. So, you can stop this unnecessary whine about IA and foreign equipment and sh1t like that.
That was my contention. If you are operating 5 squadrons for a while then why ground all of them when the incident happens in one of the most demanding and unique environments.
Thank you for displaying your ignorance here. And making exactly the same mistake which professionals do not make.

For one, how did you arrive at a conclusion that the helicopter crashed because of the environmental factors obtained in Siachen? Did IA say anything in this regard? Nothing. What you've said is called jumping to conclusion - IA on the other hand will do root cause analysis, find out what led to cause and take further course of action.

And BTW, the machine was designed to perform in the environment it was operating in. I don't think there are reduced safety or performance standards (for equipment and sub-component on board) for Siachen or other such extreme areas.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by prabhug »

Where is the LCH-TD3???? Long Wait indeed? Damn sure some issue ???? :evil:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nits »

prabhug wrote:Where is the LCH-TD3???? Long Wait indeed? Damn sure some issue ???? :evil:
i think we had this link posted sometime back - posting again; from http://idrw.org/?p=22097
According to sources close to idrw.org, HAL is planning to have first flight of LCH TD-3 somewhere in October this year; Mock up of TD-3 cockpit was fabricated earlier this year in February and feedback has been taken from IAF and Army pilots for changes to be made to cockpit and suggestions for further improvements to it .

TD-3 will be lighter than its predecessors and will feature reduced cockpit dimensions, improved cockpit vision, modification to door and door locking mechanism. TD-3 will be final configuration in development of Light combat Helicopter (LCH) by HAL and all the feedback by IAF and Army will be incorporated in TD-3 before it goes into production.

Once TD-3 is ready along with TD-2 will join weapons trials, HAL also plans to conduct second round of Hot and cold weather trials in 2013 and 2014. According to sources once TD-3 joins test flight, IOC can be achieved by September 2014.

HAL has a firm order to deliver 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army. The LCH second prototype, TD-2 completed sea level trials in July 2012 last year, trials covered helicopter performance, loads measurement, and handling qualities. About 40 % of the ALH systems are incorporated into LCH, which includes transmission systems, rotor system, propulsion and some electrical and avionics which will reduce cost of LCH and will be easier to maintain.
Last edited by nits on 21 May 2013 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nits »

Gurus - Does LCH has any Navy Role or is it not fit for naval requirement under current configuration...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by sankum »

Some 40 to 50nos LCH will be required by IN for LPD/LPH.

But I dont think LCH will fit the role as it have same problem like of naval Dhruv of rotor blade folding and so is unlikely to be orderred by IN.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

I had posted as article. Even the apache at present is not navalized and needs a laundry list of modifications including a new nav system to be considered fully naval. The brits operated it off a ship in libya just because they had nothing better at hand.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nits »

sankum wrote:Some 40 to 50nos LCH will be required by IN for LPD/LPH.

But I dont think LCH will fit the role as it have same problem like of naval Dhruv of rotor blade folding and so is unlikely to be orderred by IN.
HAL has capability to develop Auto Folding rotor blade but as it will add more weight - it was shelved... but if we need this feature for Naval Role we can\should go ahead with it...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Let lpd or lph deal be signed first. Funds crunch means we might not see this deal anytime soon...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Vipul »

‘Strategic vision needed for ‘manufacture of helicopters’

Aviation experts have called for pragmatic policies to meet the strategic vision in the helicopter manufacturing and technology.

Speaking at a seminar on the ‘Future trends on helicopter technologies’, aerospace scientist Roddam Narasimha said, “One should learn from failures and set workable vision.”

He complimented Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for achieving success in the development of Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and hoped that the eco-system built by the company further helps all the players involved in helicopter technology.

Gopal Krishna, professor at Indian Institute of Science (IISc), made a key-note presentation on structural health monitoring of aircraft.

R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL, felt that usage of civil helicopters is far less in India and there is huge scope for it.

He said HAL has launched modernisation drive and capacity augmentation will happen in due course. He complemented HAL’s Helicopter Complex for its achievements, particularly in the last one year in which IOC for the weaponised version of ALH ‘Rudra’ was achieved.

Designers, researchers, R&D institutes, academicians, regulatory authorities, helicopter pilots and users attended the day-long seminar.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

TOI reporting, Army to induct Rudra in August.
A total of six squadrons, totaling 60 helicopters will be inducted.

The first two squadrons, expected to have imported ATGM (mostly Spike-ER), the balance will get Helina.
I hope that getting the imported ATGMs for the first two squadrons, doesn't kill the Helina project.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 980118.cms
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

If the LCH arrives on time,an aggressive export strategy should also be planned.There have been many complaints about the indifferent attendence of Indian def. PSUs at international def. expos.In fact Pak often have better pavilions esp. in Gulf friendly with India for expos.There is a huge market from developing nations who are wanting economical weapon systems and we should be pro-active in this regard.I am sure that we can rope in as partners or buyers a few nations into development/sales of the LCH,Afghanistan for example,who have already requested us for arms so that they can deal with the Talibs after the US retreat.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by maitya »

mody wrote:TOI reporting, Army to induct Rudra in August.
A total of six squadrons, totaling 60 helicopters will be inducted.

The first two squadrons, expected to have imported ATGM (mostly Spike-ER), the balance will get Helina.
I hope that getting the imported ATGMs for the first two squadrons, doesn't kill the Helina project.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 980118.cms
The juicy bits in the ToI report Army to get Rudra choppers, armed with missiles and rockets in Aug are:
Induction of Rudras marks a significant boost to Army's endeavour to build its own "mini'' air force. The raising of "aviation brigades'' for each of the 1.13-million strong Army's three "strike'' and 10 "pivot'' corps (each has around 75,000 soldiers) has already kicked off.

The force wants one attack helicopter squadron each for its three "strike'' formations - 1 Corps (Mathura), 2 Corps (Ambala) and 21 Corps (Bhopal) — in keeping with their primary offensive role. Moreover, it has plans to induct 114 Rudras for the remaining 10 'pivot' corps.

The force's long-term plans include a squadron each of attack/armed, reconnaissance/observation and tactical battle-support helicopters for all the 13 corps.
So the plan is to have Sqdns at the corps level - while I's thinking maybe it needs to go down to equipping at the division level.
Maybe later when LCHs comes thru, further augmentation will happen - and maybe this aviation brigade/corp formulation in future, incorporates a sqn each of LCH and Rudras for the Strike Corps and 2 Sqns of Rudras/Pivot Corps.

But whatever it is, it's a step in the right direction no doubt. :)

Plus, the below is also a step in the right direction (though a sqn/Regional or Operational Commands woul have been better):
In addition, the force wants each of its six regional or operational commands to get "a flight'' of five fixed-wing aircraft for tactical airlift of troops and equipment.
But this will generate another round of tug-of-war and turf-war between IAF and Army. :oops:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

There is also the task of converting our parachute regiment units into a couple of full up airborne brigades. While iaf will provide the fix wings, ia could provide them with mi17, chinooks , rudras and lch in ample nos to own the rotary wing side of things.

This should be seen as separate from the corps level plans.

The proposed joint sf command will need its own assets too.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

mody wrote:The first two squadrons, expected to have imported ATGM (mostly Spike-ER), the balance will get Helina.
I hope that getting the imported ATGMs for the first two squadrons, doesn't kill the Helina project.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 980118.cms
These "stop-gap" purchases should be avoided unless absolutely required. The process of selection will invariable take so long that Helina will be probably be ready. Really an exercise in futility and unnecessary cost. And if they do succeed, there is always the possibility that it might be used to kill off the Helina.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Gloom. AWST has a report on the already delayed/cancelled LUH acquisition,where Kamov and Eurocopter are squaring off with their two lightweight helos.The contest is about to be cancelled yet again,thanks to AKA's "cleaner-than-thou" attitude ,wanting an enquiry reg. an officer who was allegedly on the take,being finished before proceeding further.Eurocopter,in sh*t street, is in dire straits with this further delay,and Kamov .In sh*ttier street are the Indian armed forces-the IA and IN particularly,desperate for replacements for the All-3/Chetaks ,many of which are still flying thanks to the efforts of the maintenance teams and prayers!
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kartik »

Why be gloomy about that? At least there is an indigenous option in the HAL LUH which is supposed to fly sometime this year or in 2014. Given the ALH and LCH experience, HAL's helicopter division should be able to take this one to fruition, hopefully get it into service by 2017-18.

Why waste foreign exchange on one of these foreign options that really don't offer that much more than an indigenous option? IMO, the delays are working out in our own favour.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

The gloom is that it is past critical time for replacements for the services.They have been screaming about this delay for over two years now.Even if the indigenous version takes flight within two years,flight testing,etc. setting up production facilities,will ensure that only around 4-5 years from now will we see series production.Going by the above argument,we thus do not need to buy Pilatus trainers as HAL's much touted basic trainer will also arrive within the same period,which analysts have worked out to be twice as expensive to manufacture and which the IAF do not want! The recent tragedy in Uttarkhand saw the massive use of helos to save lives and this is a civil disaster op only,not a military crisis.We are steadily falling behind procurement of critically needed def. eqpt. and systems due to babudom while our arch-enemies continue to modernise and augment their capabilities.

While not belittling HAL's helicopter division ,which I've praised before,a similar situ may arise as is being faced by Avadi and HVF,where there is huge backlog of orders of modernising T-72s,assembling T-90s and manufacturing Arjuns,MK-1 and developing Mk-2. HAL is making several versions of the ALH,about to produce the LCH,armed versions of Dhruv,the Lancer,etc. Its order book is already very healthy and one could experience delays with the LUH just as we're seeing with the IJT. If I'm not mistaken,there is already in the offing a venture underway to manufacture the Kamoiv Sergei helo/components in India to meet its demand.

In fact,by the same argument,why buy anything from abroad? Just wait for the DRDO and our PSUs to make everything.Our grandchildren will still be waiting for some of the items! As for the armed forces,they can then fight with bows and arrows.Sell this idea to the service chiefs and watch their reaction!
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kartik »

No need to hyperventilate.

In the interim, the IAF can order some Cheetals and retire the oldest Cheetah airframes. HAL recently supplied some Cheetals to the IAF IIRC.

If the situation gets out of hand, get any one of the type off-the-shelf without an elaborate competition to tide over till the LUH enters service. Or order more Dhruvs since they can perform even the roles of the Cheetah in Siachen.

There is no need to go around distributing our money to foreign OEMs when a desi product can do the job and do it well enough.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bharadwaj »

Kartik wrote:No need to hyperventilate.

In the interim, the IAF can order some Cheetals and retire the oldest Cheetah airframes. HAL recently supplied some Cheetals to the IAF IIRC.

If the situation gets out of hand, get any one of the type off-the-shelf without an elaborate competition to tide over till the LUH enters service. Or order more Dhruvs since they can perform even the roles of the Cheetah in Siachen.

There is no need to go around distributing our money to foreign OEMs when a desi product can do the job and do it well enough.
If the Dhruv lifts more at a higher altitude(which it is said to do), why the need for the lighter chopper? Purchase costs? Operational costs?. I have never understood this light chopper requirement clearly.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

me neither...UAVs can take over the observation task if deployed properly and surely the Dhruv can do more in utility role than the tiny candidates or Llama/Alouette-III helis.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

running costs. using a car when a bike would do means exorbitant fuel costs.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Cybaru »

If for some reason HAL LUH is delayed it won't be by a large margin. Perhaps at most a year or two. Additional 20 dhruvs could tide us quite easily till then. I agree with Kartik. Cancel the whole Importing LUH program. Just increase the number of airframes being manufactured at home right from the start. The new Mi17 orders, the constant dhruv deliveries should find us in a good state. Sure some Chitals may require retiring, but nothing we cannot handle.

On the other hand, if they do want to replace helicopters, since the MRH program hasn't really started, money spent in the sea king replacement program may be better served for us. NH-90 after they fix their million issues may work for us.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

it's not like the cheetahs are falling from the skies like there's no tomorrow. a combination of dhruv and cheetal should be enough to tide us over till HAL LUH appears.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

are they getting nag?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Imo the nh90 has good specs on paper but lot of issues . Ec725 is likely more proven but few orders and shaky future.

We need to crowdsource and follow the herd here which says blackhawk. Older design but lot of upg and variant plus huge user base with no planned replacement even in the works.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

It is the car vs bike analogy.The armed forces require large numbers of light helos for a variety of utilitarian tasks,which larger and more helos like the Dhruv would be more expensive to acquire and operate.In addition,the naval variant of Dhruv was a failure and it cannot serve the IN's purpose.From the reports below,one can see that stop-gap measures have already been applied,but they do not solve the problem of acquiring a new-gen type that fits the bill.

Now just look at the chronology.The RFP for the 197 light helos was issued way back in 2003! 10 years ago.In 2007 it appeared that a decision would be made but it was derailed as usual by def. min. babudom.The IN's RFP for 50+ NUH naval helos to replace the All-3s.Chetaks was issued in 2012.It is scandalous that the babus of the MOD and precious politico bosses ,who consume a vast amount of public money by way of salaries,lifestyle,etc.,cannot take a decision on the subject after 10 years .This is not a case of India developing its own tech/system as is the case with the LCA,Arjun,etc., but merely choosing a firang type to be also licence-built in India.If we could take a swift decision-by Indian standards with the basic trainer-the Pilatus,why is there such a delay with the LUH?

Here are some excerpts reports.
A procurement manager with the Indian navy indicates that the NUH has to meld several roles into one modern new platform, after the indigenous naval ALH Dhruv failed to deliver a light, multirole shipborne platform with an ASW capability. Indeed, with the navy's growing anti-piracy responsibilities in the Indian Ocean region, the NUH is the latest in a raft of acquisitions pointed at asymmetric engagement at sea.

Contenders include Eurocopter's AS565 Panther, Sikorsky's S-76B, and a maritime version of AgustaWestland's AW109 Koala. Bell and Russian Helicopters could also field bids. The navy stipulates that it wants a wheeled helicopter with an all-up weight that does not exceed 4.5 metric tons, powered by twin turboshaft engines with an electronic engine-control mechanism. The service wants the NUH, planned for induction in 2016, to be capable of deploying at least one lightweight ASW torpedo or two depth charges, with the ability to mount 12.7-mm machine guns or rocket launchers on either side.

Eurocopter—which is still awaiting a decision on the long-delayed Indian army and air force's 197-aircraft reconnaissance and surveillance helicopter (RSH) contest in which its AS550 C3 Fennec is vying with the Kamov Ka-226T Sergei—will be watching the navy competition closely. After a string of disappointments in the Indian market, EADS will be looking to win anything new that comes up.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 581191.xml

Officials Pessimistic About LUH Prospects
By Asia-Pacific Staff
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
May 27, 2013
Credit: Eurocopter

India's long-delayed effort to acquire 197 light reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters for its army and air force is spiraling toward what might be the program's second cancellation.

The billion-dollar deal, a fight between Eurocopter's AS550 C3 Fennec and the Kamov Ka-226T Sergei, has languished without decision since 2010, when field evaluation trials were completed. The helicopter sale has been further derailed by an army-recommended investigation into the role an Indian military officer played in a purported bribery attempt during the first stage of the competition.

Those allegations arose as part of an Italian investigation into the larger scandal involving Finmeccanica, which resulted in the ouster of CEO Giuseppi Orsi. Italian authorities discovered papers suggesting that an Indian military officer had offered to manipulate the specifications and trial process in the light helicopter program to favor AgustaWestland, which had been a contender at the time. The company's AW109 was eliminated from the competition on technical grounds shortly after the purported offer was made.

A senior Indian defense ministry source confirms that the Defense Acquisition Council, headed by Defense Minister A.K. Antony, will not move forward on the light helicopter program until inquiries into corruption charges by the officer are complete.

In March, Antony told the Indian parliament that “no formal inquiry has been instituted in the case of procurement of the 197 Light Utility Helicopters.” The statement was nuanced, though. Government agencies are investigating corruption charges against the Indian officer but not the helicopter deal itself.

The episode is the latest in a line of difficulties for the program. In 2007, the first time the competition was aborted, Eurocopter had won, but the program was scrapped in the final stage following allegations of non-compliance—a major blow to Eurocopter.

Now, the possibility of a second program kill has Eurocopter managers in India anxious to the extreme.

The “delay in the procurement program for reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters has become a serious cause of concern for Eurocopter,” wrote Rainer Farid, vice president for sales and customer relations in India and South Asia in an April 3 letter to India's director general of acquisitions. “Since issue of the current [request for proposals], till date four years has elapsed, and the validity of the commercial quotes has already been extended six times.”

Kamov declined requests for comment on the program, but an official at Russian Helicopters in New Delhi described a sense of confusion about how to proceed.

“It does not look good. The government hasn't answered questions sent by us. The signal appears to be, step back, this isn't happening,” the official said. “We are currently weighing our options under the Defense Procurement Procedure. There is a total absence of clarity on the way forward.”

Industry worries appear to be shared within the Indian government. Defense ministry officials remain grim about the program's future.

“It isn't formally over. But it seems unlikely it will come up for a decision any time soon,” says a senior defense ministry acquisitions officer. “The entire deal will have to be reexamined, perhaps from scratch.”

The possibility of ending the procurement a second time is a bitter blow for the army and air force, both of which have desperately sought new-build helicopters for operations from high-altitude bases since 2004.

Their fleets of light utility Cheetah/Alouette-IIs and Chetak/Alouette-IIIs are too old to be reliable. In February, the army concluded a $76 million deal for 20 Cheetals—up-engined versions of the Cheetah/Alouette-II that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) builds under license—as a stopgap, anticipating delays in the light helicopter deal.

HAL's own light utility helicopter program is delayed but making progress. The program looks to meet a requirement of 185 helicopters for the army, air force and navy. After a protracted effort, the company has finally chosen the Turbomeca Ardiden 1U turboshaft engine. Urged to speed the program, HAL has committed to a first flight in 2015, and final operational clearance in 2017.

Separately, the navy will shortly release a request for proposals to service a requirement of 56 light naval utility helicopters. Fighting against a potential blacklist in the VVIP helicopter bribery scandal, AgustaWestland has pitched its AW109 and is likely to compete with the Sikorsky S-76D, Bell 429 and Eurocopter AS565 Panther.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22539 »

^Whenever there is the prospect of buying Russian stuff vs Indian stuff, some people get their panties in a bunch. No matter what arguments they make, the basic reason for this hyperventilating is obvious. I feel sorry for anyone who will fall for this kind of drama more than once.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kartik »

Today's TOI print edition has a small article on how effective the Dhruvs were during the recent Uttarakhand disaster relief ops.

As per a HAL communique, the Dhruvs performed effectively in dropping paratroopers, evacuations and food and medicine supplies. They made hundreds of sorties in high risk zones overcoming strong winds, visibility and with virtually no space for landing on high terrains. HAL teams were positioned at Dehradun and Delhi to ensure logistic support.

Dhruvs clocked more than 630 flying hours to become the star performer. On many occasions, incessant rains could only be taken by Dhruvs as it was unsafe for other copters to land. The Cheetah and Chetak clocked 520 hours.

As others have also reiterated, simply cancel this competition for LUH and go with the HAL variant. Also start hard selling the Dhruvs using data from the relief ops. With the Rudra also available, HAL is slowly getting to a point where the Dhruvs, Rudra and LCH could be very attractive and cost effective export options for more Latin American, African and South East Asian nations.

The LUH would further round out the HAL heli stable. The. All we'd need is a medium weight heli that could in the future act as a Mi-17 replacement.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Even the Sarang troupe was sent to U'Khand.

Pl. guys,this is not a Russo-bazaar issue.Since 2003 there has been a req. for a light utility helo.Stop-gap measures are exactly what they are,stop-gap.In any case,I've posted details that it was the Eurocopter that won the competition in 2007.Why was the decision cancelled and is about to be yet again? If we go by the specious ,asinine argument that we can wait forever until desi PSUs deliver,why then did we go in for the MMRCA tamasha? We can simply sit back and wait until the DRDO delivers,the LCA arrives,while the venerable MIG-21s run out of life and crash! Why buy GE engines too for the LCA,after all our great brown hope-the Kaveri is on its way-has been for decades! From available official reports,the LUH will fly only in 2014 and hopefully will be in production by 2017.That is 4 years away.How many aviation projects have met their scheduled timeframes? Plus,by 2017,the demand for LUHs will be at least double that for both mil. and civil requirements.There is no other option available today than to import/licence manufature/assemeble a firang light helo when our LUH has yet to make its first flight.Don't blame the armed forces for wanting tried and trusted firang wares when they've been shafted time and time again by the DRDO.

And for all those critics of Russian eqpt.,pl. take a count of which def. eqpt. was made available to India over the last 60 years,especially by the west, and which eqpt. proved invaluable to us in defeating Pak esp. in '71.Plus which is the aircraft that has kicked the sh*t out of western competition in recent exercises ? Don't forget Brahmos too and Akulas,Talwars,etc., and assistance in nuclear sub tech.Has the US even offered us the same,while it continues to arm Pak?
So don't screw a nation and its products just because you don't like its face.My policy has always been "horses for courses" when it comes to acquiring def. eqpt. The armed forces have shown us that they acquire both Russian eqpt. and western eqpt. too,depending upon the need ,product and price.

While praise is indeed fullsome for the Dhruv,what about reports that our MI-26s too-and there are just a few of them flying,were also pressed into service along with scores of workhorse MI-17s.This disaster underscores the need for more heavy-lift helos to be able to transport heavy eqpt. especially,which is vital whether it is a for disaster relief or for mil. purposes.I would increase the number of heavy-lift helos for the IAF and reduce by half the number of VVIP AWs instead! In fact if Putin can fly in a VVIP MI-17,why can't our precious VVIP backsides do the same when the AWs are too expensive even for the likes of Obama?

The U'Khand helo rescue has been a monumental effort and the details should be recorded and published.There has been no equiv. effort that one can think of anywhere in the world before.sadly,the efforts of the armed forces are swiftly forgotten after a mil. crisis or disaster,and their vital needs for eqpt.,welfare,etc. are contemptuously ignored by babudom and its incompetent political bosses,which is why finding fresh recruits for the armed forces is becoming a major issue,particularly for the officer corps.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nrshah »

^^^
how sure are we that even if the LUH is taken ahead, it will arrive in scheduled time?

We are negotiating rafale for quite some years now and possibilty of prolonged discussion cannot be ruled out here as well

what if even after awarding the contract, bribe and other charges holds the project - refer VVIP contract

what are the numbers that we expect to induct of the impotent sorry imported helo by 2019 if the project is fasttracked? Official time line of HAL LUH is 2017. I have added 2 years for delays which as noted is world vide incl imported solutions. Can the numbers so inducted can replace entire fleet of cheetak/ cheetah? Or even 25% of it?? I dont think so. Then why cant additional dhruv do the same in the interim? Please dont bring cost here as the additional dhruv wll be temprory doing job of larger helo and can be replaced when LUH arrives. Anyway, we have large need of helos as rightly noted and these additional dhruvs can be realligned to this requirement once LUH fills required numbers

LUH cannot be compared to LCA / Kaveri. lUH is backed by two successful programes while other two were first projects without any past experience.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

kshirin
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by kshirin »

[quote="putnanja"]Proud Of Dhruv In Flood Ops: HAL

Pilots 'Save' Dhruv Copter In Flooded North[/quote]


Contrast it with this disheartening article, MHA is dissing the Dhruv. Many other countries want to buy it but if one of our own Ministries takes this stand God help us. We have to create at least a domestic market for our products and it should be mandatory to "Buy Indian" especially when quality has been internationally proven. There is enough blow-back against Indian products anyway internationally with the IMO sneakily rejecting an excellent bid by an Indian high tech company for water ballast treatment and pressure to reduce market space for Indian products in India. We have to at least bat for our own.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/mha-n ... s/1141278/

MHA not happy with HAL-made choppers, wants more bidders
Rahul Tripathi : New Delhi, Sat Jul 13 2013, 10:53 hrs
The proposal to procure indigenous helicopters for paramilitary forces has run into rough weather with the home ministry (MHA) insisting that more than one vendor should take part in the bidding.
The ministry had earlier decided that state-run HAL would supply 12 ALH Dhruvs for use in medical emergencies and for operations in Jammu & Kashmir, the northeast and against Maoist extremists.
MHA officials said they were consulting the IAF but want the best chopper for paramilitary forces. The MHA position contradicts that of the defence ministry which insists on choppers manufactured by Indian companies while the armed forces prefer global vendors.
A senior MHA official said the BSF had procured the ALH and was not happy with it. "We want more manufacturers to participate so that we can buy a better product. there are recurring problems and high maintenance with ALH. In some cases, it takes more than a year for HAL to deliver the the aircraft sent for maintenance," the official said.
The MHA wants other companies that make helicopters similar to the ALH to bid for the deal. "This will also mean we can ask for certain specifications in the aircraft to suit the operational recruitment of our forces," he added.
The ministry decided to get choppers for paramilitary forces after they complained that they had to depend on the IAF's services and there was little or no cooperation from the Air Force.
This was highlighted by the controversy in January when IAF personnel left behind an injured constable in a helicopter that had crash-landed in Chhattisgarh after Naxalites had fired at it.
Paramilitary choppers can also be used to ferry personnel who have to travel long distances to reach home when they get short break
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by MN Kumar »

The MHA wants other companies that make helicopters similar to the ALH to bid for the deal. "This will also mean we can ask for certain specifications in the aircraft to suit the operational recruitment of our forces," he added.
What a reason. :shock:
Does this really need a multi vendor competition? What kind of better & customized features they need when the Dhruv has performed exceedingly well in one of the most demanding situations whether be it landing with greater payload in Siachin or its recent stint in the rescue efforts.

You have a chopper that MADE IN INDIA and MADE FOR INDIA and you dont want to take it.
Does the MHA expects more critical situations for a chopper than the Army & Air Force?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kersi D »

MN Kumar wrote:
The MHA wants other companies that make helicopters similar to the ALH to bid for the deal. "This will also mean we can ask for certain specifications in the aircraft to suit the operational recruitment of our forces," he added.
What a reason. :shock:
Does this really need a multi vendor competition? What kind of better & customized features they need when the Dhruv has performed exceedingly well in one of the most demanding situations whether be it landing with greater payload in Siachin or its recent stint in the rescue efforts.

You have a chopper that MADE IN INDIA and MADE FOR INDIA and you dont want to take it.
Does the MHA expects more critical situations for a chopper than the Army & Air Force?
But the Dhruv cannot deliver kickbacks !!!
Last edited by Kersi D on 14 Jul 2013 00:22, edited 1 time in total.
Kersi D
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kersi D »

MN Kumar wrote:
The MHA wants other companies that make helicopters similar to the ALH to bid for the deal. "This will also mean we can ask for certain specifications in the aircraft to suit the operational recruitment of our forces," he added.
What a reason. :shock:
Does this really need a multi vendor competition? What kind of better & customized features they need when the Dhruv has performed exceedingly well in one of the most demanding situations whether be it landing with greater payload in Siachin or its recent stint in the rescue efforts.

You have a chopper that MADE IN INDIA and MADE FOR INDIA and you dont want to take it.
Does the MHA expects more critical situations for a chopper than the Army & Air Force?
If MHA wanst a larger aircraft, nothing better than the Mi 17. The Mi 8 / Mi 17 has been the backbone of IAF for decades. In Uttarkhand disater, it proved its mettle.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kersi D »

The Uttarkhand had more than one disaster. IAF lost a Mi 17 with its super precious air warriors. But all, the real experts in IAF and we the arm-chairs experts, know that the aircraft were operating under super harsh conditions.

What would have happened if a Dhruv had crashed under similar conditions ?

Hell would break loose for all indigenous equipment. HAL would have been crucified and anti-Indian goods / pro-foren goods media would have run wild.

K
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

only in India would we make local products suffer like this

the Arjun is made to do a comparitive trial witht he effing tin can

now this
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vic »

The honest procurement system of Home Ministry was exemplified by purchase of 9mm SMGs for Rs 400 crores from Beretta
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

they dont want to run a back end support system like IAF does but want 24x7 'wet lease' availability at a shoestring cost.
they are better off hiring ukrainian or russian contract pilots with leased Mi17 than spending our hard earned money on a fleet they dont want to upkeep properly.

and I dont know why MHA needs to play FBI/ATF/CIA and have its own aviation wing. pay IAF the requisite funds to setup proper helicopter bases in regions of interest, release money to IAF for additional helis and pay by hour for operations.
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