LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

[Rupesh]

Article is 100% crap

[Singha]

CAG wrote that report on a computer using 100% imported parts and printed on a HP printer using imported toner cartridge . I submit that CAG be disbanded
and made to write on tree parchment using wooden nibs made by swadeshi craftsmen. they also cannot wear pants or panties being imported inventions and should dress in dhoti and 9 yard sari only. and all western toilets in CAG premises be sealed and placed under customs custody.

[prastor]

Unless critics like CAG do their share of work like they are doing now, DRDO or HAL will tend to slack off and not keep up with their work. The Dhruv program was supposed to reach a 50% indigenous level by now, which it failed to achieve. Though CAG tends to come off too harsh at times, they are to be viewed like a "strict dad" who is hard to please. It all usually adds up to give a positive outcome in the long run.

[vina]

Though CAG tends to come off too harsh at times, they are to be viewed like a "strict dad" who is hard to please. It all usually adds up to give a positive outcome in the long run...........

CAG is the best and sanest organization to keep its presence.

.

The CAG are monkeys who can't find their own asses with their two hands . They are nothing but a bunch of nitwit babus who can't look beyond their noses and basically are nothing but a set of insiders setting up "sanitized" "criticisms" who are then "rectified" by the govt agencies and everything is "fine and dandy". A whole load of rubbish and just plain garbage.

Basically, the CAG is incompetent of audit anything. First they are not "qualified" auditors in the traditional sense of CAs or specialized forensics / corporate auditors but a bunch of failed babus who could not get the ranks in the Civil Services exams to become IAS/IFS and settled for audit services. And more importantly, the entire govt auditing is bogus. They dont even have standard double entry accounting or anything which conforms to GAAP (of any kind), but some hokey single entry accounting and some make believe.

If you really want any accounting ,evaluation of performance, strategy, products etc, list HAL in the market and let it be evaluated in the daily basis by the votes in the stock market and the teams of analysts from multiple investors and others to track it.

As for product /quality, the customer knows what he is getting. ALH has sold to multiple international customers who would evaluate it against what is on offer. If it can win sales it is good. That has been proven.

As for the "indigenous materials" fetish, I think that "indigenous" fetish of 100% should be thrown in the dustbin. And pray , why SHOULD the materials be 100% indigenous ? Is that based on economic logic or some harebrained 100% indigenous fundamentalism from the socialist days?

[vina]

Do you have a source to back your words? I know a very close friend who works for CAG. I have an idea of what they do and how they do. If you wanna drag this argument, then lemme call him up and setup an evening session.

I dont need to back anything up. Why dont you take your friend's resume and send it to any firm (even a small firm) that audits companies of any significant scale and see what they tell about your friend's resume. Sorry, but that is a hard cold fact. The Govt audit is not standard, it is flawed and if any company is audited on those lines, any sane person in the market will drop it like a hot potato.

I will get all the details and post it. Indigenous content is all about making product cheaper, developing technological capabilities and becoming less reliable on International market.

How does totally opposed things like "making product cheaper, developing technological capabilities " and " becoming less reliable on International market" get tied together by the magic called "indigenous content" ? With no market participation at international levels, you don't have any of "making product cheaper, developing technological capabilities" , in fact, you dont have a product at all!

Everybody in this forum knows that. But I still don't understand why the wise guys challenge the gesture of indigenous content. Because of the lack of this so called ridiculous thought of indigenous content, we are the world's greatest arms importers. Suits us well I guess!

Case in point the Ambassador.. That was 100% "indigenous materials" and it was ossified. At the other end, you have the Tata Nano , which uses 100% "imported" steel for it's body and structural panels but is somehow by the definition of the CAG type nitwits "100%" foreign.

I don't understand an imported Brit design, outdated, unchanged, ossified, but 100% materials made in India is "indigenous" but a 100% indian designed, but made in a plant where every equipment from painting to welding to anything of consequence is imported from the best in the world , and made from steel imported into India is "100% foreign". So maybe the "100% indigenous" ayatollahs should put their thinking caps on and get back to basics of what they are talking about!

Well, we did have an arms industry that was 100% indigenous thus far (trucks, tanks, airplanes..everything was 100% indigenous materials , made in India), but still you whine about being the worlds greatest importer! Now why is that ?. Is that becuase what you mean by "indigenous" is fundamentally wrong?

[Austin]

In the first case was ALH ever meant to be 100 % indiginous choppers ?

The idea was to develop a chopper to meet army needs ,HAL went with MBB germany as consultant for design and procured system and integrated it as per requirement , so its more of designers and system integration task that HAL did ?

[prastor]

Vani garu,

CAG pointed out that HAL did not achieve its promise of 50% indigenous parts till date. How is that a bad thing for CAG? And how does that make HAL the victim here?

Maybe HAL and DRDO should not promise certain things when they know very well they don't have control over some major factors affecting those promised results.

CAG is merely doing its job of pointing out the parity of 40% in the use of imported parts, based on HAL's promises and not CAG's own expectations.

[prastor]

In the first case was ALH ever meant to be 100 % indiginous choppers ?

The idea was to develop a chopper to meet army needs ,HAL went with MBB germany as consultant for design and procured system and integrated it as per requirement , so its more of designers and system integration task that HAL did ?

Austin,

As per CAG, apparently a 50% of the chopper was supposed to be sourced locally as promised by HAL itself. CAG alleges that HAl did not keep this promise because 90% of Dhruv is still built with imported stuff as opposed to the promised 50%. I just do not get how this makes CAG the bad guys!!!

[vina]

CAG pointed out that HAL did not achieve its promise of 50% indigenous parts till date. How is that a bad thing for CAG? And how does that make HAL the victim here?

I would read what was written very carefully. Per my reading, the CAG said that the MATERIALS were 90% imported. I don't know what they mean. It can mean a whole range of things, If it is BOM, yeah, it is straight forward , by value it is 90% of input is imported. But if it is just plain "RAW Materials" it means just that and not parts. It could mean just stuff like components and other things made in India are made from imported raw materials to the extent of 90%.

The problem with the "Journalist" types (Rahul Bedi , Shiv Aroor) seems to be lack of reading comprehension basics and the inability to read with any understanding , critical or otherwise of what is written. They want sensationalism, are looking for soundbites and blaring headlines, so they pick up on 90% and make a massive jump and conclude that "ALH is 90% Imported" , whatever that means , and how is right or wrong and what is 90% is left unsaid /unknown. Problem is , those dorks dont know it either. So what is unknown is left unsaid, but that doesnt stop you from sensationalising via blaring headlines!

So basically just a load of garbage. Now you know why those types in the Indian media are called DDM ?

[vina]

Not everyone in CAG comes from IAS background. There are people who work on invitational basis. And you guessed it right, my friend was invited to work for CAG.

Consultants don't count!. The GOI dont have a system of lateral hires anywhere at any level . The only route in is through the UPSC! And believe me, your pal is not the one doing the CAG type audit of any company. He at best would be an advisory kind of role to CAG. And even if he did and signs off on a balance sheet of a PSU like say BHEL (all listed PSU have standard GAAP accounting) on the same methods used to evaluate a pure Govt dept/ Govt company like HAL , he will carry zero credibility.

If you read the report correctly, the CAG never said that the why components have been imported.

Hmm. Reading comprehension problems. You join the likes of Shiv Aroor and Rahul Bedi. Please read my previous post on it.

Because your fundamental of "indigenous" fails to explain that why we donot have a single critical technology developed within our country and we still rely on imports for all critical components.

That is because of your "indigenous" fetish. You were focused on import substitution (which is what your definition of indigenous really means), by which you want to make everything in the country (.. no .actually inside your PSU/Govt, private is verbotten and hence not "indigenous" ). You put your resources into that and not new designs and new innovations. That is why you dont have anything to show, other than making ambassadors for 40 years and 1950s trucks from MAN called Shaktiman for 50 years.

And the best example you can give is the screw driver technology which even the caveman next door can do.

What you guys did was the screw driver giri. The only thing was you made the screw driver and bolts and everything at home and pretended that by making everything you were great.

Talking about trucks, tell me one Indian Truck manufacturer who has "indigenously" developed a heavy duty truck engine for Multi-Axle semi-trailer with 10-15 liter displacement?

Why any "INDIAN Truck manufacturer" would develop a 10-15 liter displacement engine for a MULTI-Axle semi trailer ? Until recently there were no roads for those kind of trucks, as roads were built , multi axle vehicles are seen on the major highways, still speeds are low (less than 60 to 70km for laden trucks) lower displacement engines will do fine . So what rational reason is there for a 10-15 liter engine that can drive a 50 ton truck at 120kmph on a sustained basis on highways and gulp far far more diesel than a lower displacement slower truck in every other condition ? India aint Europe innit?

A private guy will make decisions based on economic rationality and not an ideological fetish about "Indigenous". Now , if they are developing a global product like the Tata Novus, they will get their international affliate to develop it for global markets and get a model suitable to the Indian market over here . Or if anything needs to be exported, they will get an engine from a CAT or Cummins that is suitable . So I really dont see the problem.

Is a Suzuki car with a FIAT engine 100% Suzuki or not kind of questions is pointless. It gets the job done, works fine, customers love it, the cash registers ring. That is all that matter. Everything else is just self defeating.

[JTull]

Not taking any sides, but...

nukavarapu has some valid points.

pandyan, CAG are the auditors. They don't score own-goals. They find the own-goals that are being hidden away.

vina, GoI does hire people as consultants (or otherwise) in all aspects of governance in dilli nowadays. You assume too much.

ALH is a great product, but let's not stick our heads in sand and ignore any opportunity to improve the product and the business that surrounds it. Criticism can be taken in two ways.

[prastor]

Not taking any sides, but...

nukavarapu has some valid points.

pandyan, CAG are the auditors. They don't score own-goals. They find the own-goals that are being hidden away.

vina, GoI does hire people as consultants (or otherwise) in all aspects of governance in dilli nowadays. You assume too much.

ALH is a great product, but let's not stick our heads in sand and ignore any opportunity to improve the product and the business that surrounds it. Criticism can be taken in two ways.

Finally!!! A sane post. Thank you!

[symontk]

Also what happened after a CAG report on Bofors Gun in 1989? Army is still without modern artillery. CAG is only good for criticism, not for any constructive thoughts

[prastor]

CAG pointed out that HAL did not achieve its promise of 50% indigenous parts till date. How is that a bad thing for CAG? And how does that make HAL the victim here?

I would read what was written very carefully. Per my reading, the CAG said that the MATERIALS were 90% imported. I don't know what they mean. It can mean a whole range of things, If it is BOM, yeah, it is straight forward , by value it is 90% of input is imported. But if it is just plain "RAW Materials" it means just that and not parts. It could mean just stuff like components and other things made in India are made from imported raw materials to the extent of 90%.

The problem with the "Journalist" types (Rahul Bedi , Shiv Aroor) seems to be lack of reading comprehension basics and the inability to read with any understanding , critical or otherwise of what is written. They want sensationalism, are looking for soundbites and blaring headlines, so they pick up on 90% and make a massive jump and conclude that "ALH is 90% Imported" , whatever that means , and how is right or wrong and what is 90% is left unsaid /unknown. Problem is , those dorks dont know it either. So what is unknown is left unsaid, but that doesnt stop you from sensationalising via blaring headlines!

So basically just a load of garbage. Now you know why those types in the Indian media are called DDM ?

Vina,

You read little and judge too much. You must lose that habit.

I could not care less for all the defence journalists in India. So, your rant on them is of no concern to me.

My source of info on this topic is the horse's mouth itself.

http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commerci ... /chap3.pdf

That is the official CAG report on ALH. Read it in entirety (like I did) and then come share your two cents about the report and its contents/claims. Until then, your opinions are just as worthless as you claim others' to be.

I stand my ground that CAG merely pointed out that HAL has not kept its own promise of 50% indigenisation and still sits at a mere 10%. Now, what form of indigenisation was HAL talking about while promising the Cabinet Committee a 50% figure is HAL's problem. CAG merely pointed out that whatever HAL promised has not been delivered yet as per HAL's definition itself. Refer to the report for more.

[prastor]

Also what happened after a CAG report on Bofors Gun in 1989? Army is still without modern artillery. CAG is only good for criticism, not for any constructive thoughts

I hope you were being sarcastic there while holding CAG responsible for Army's artillery.

When the IRS catches a tax evader, they don't go arrest the person. It is the cops who do that. And the courts convict him and the prison system carries out the sentence. They are 4 exclusive departments that are expected to work in sync for the system to be effective.

In the same way, CAG just investigates and reports. It is upto other government bodies to analyze this information and take corrective measures. Don't blame the CAG if the other bodies are incompetent to do something about the unearthed corruption and keep screwing up trials for artillery procurements due to political insecurities.

[vina]

You read little and judge too much. You must lose that habit.

Sorry. You seem incapable of reading.

This is what is there in the CAG report

The consultant recommended for indigenisation level of fifty per cent of purchases of raw material and bought out items by the year 2008. However, 90 per cent of the value of
material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers. Even though ALH is in production for 10 years, the Company has not been able to identify alternative indigenous suppliers

I could not care less for all the defence journalists in India. So, your rant on them is of no concern to me.

My source of info on this topic is the horse's mouth itself.

http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commerci ... /chap3.pdf

Maybe you should care about them,because lack of comprehension skills seems like a common trait.

I stand my ground that CAG merely pointed out that HAL has not kept its own promise of 50% indigenisation and still sits at a mere 10%. Now, what form of indigenisation was HAL talking about while promising the Cabinet Committee a 50% figure is HAL's problem. CAG merely pointed out that whatever HAL promised has not been delivered yet as per HAL's definition itself. Refer to the report for more.

Here you go again, trying to bite your own tail. I am not sure what this "value of material" means. IFF it is BOM (google for it, if you dont know what it is) then the headlines "ALH is 90% foreign " blaring headlines of Rahul Bedi and ilk are correct. If it is just 90% is imported "raw material" (as it seems to be from the context) and they have not been able to locate indigenous suppliers of raw material (so that is really not HAL's problem is it,if Indian industry doesn't feel worthwhile investing and making small lots of specialized aero materials given small size of market), then that blaring headline is just false. So, you really need to go beyond "I dont care what is indigenization! You said 50% , but we are at 90%" . Maybe it is not HAL's problem at all!

Since you seem to have such soup-e-rear reading skills that digested that report, can you please enlighten us to what this "value of material" means, so that there can be an objective understanding of what it is ?

[Sid]

^^Vina, why local industry should pay from their own pocket when they have no assurance or requirement put forward from sole aeronautical company in India, i.e. HAL.

Why should they produce something if there is no demand in market for the equipment they are producing, specially when you are a start-up in a well entranced domain of big players like EADS?

Given a chance local industry delivers. There is very small market for specialized aero materials but local industry is still involved with ISRO, isn't it?

[prastor]

You read little and judge too much. You must lose that habit.

Sorry. You seem incapable of reading.

This is what is there in the CAG report

The consultant recommended for indigenisation level of fifty per cent of purchases of raw material and bought out items by the year 2008. However, 90 per cent of the value of
material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers. Even though ALH is in production for 10 years, the Company has not been able to identify alternative indigenous suppliers

I could not care less for all the defence journalists in India. So, your rant on them is of no concern to me.

My source of info on this topic is the horse's mouth itself.

http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commerci ... /chap3.pdf

Maybe you should care about them,because lack of comprehension skills seems like a common trait.

I stand my ground that CAG merely pointed out that HAL has not kept its own promise of 50% indigenisation and still sits at a mere 10%. Now, what form of indigenisation was HAL talking about while promising the Cabinet Committee a 50% figure is HAL's problem. CAG merely pointed out that whatever HAL promised has not been delivered yet as per HAL's definition itself. Refer to the report for more.

Here you go again, trying to bite your own tail. I am not sure what this "value of material" means. IFF it is BOM (google for it, if you dont know what it is) then the headlines "ALH is 90% foreign " blaring headlines of Rahul Bedi and ilk are correct. If it is just 90% is imported "raw material" (as it seems to be from the context) and they have not been able to locate indigenous suppliers of raw material (so that is really not HAL's problem is it,if Indian industry doesn't feel worthwhile investing and making small lots of specialized aero materials given small size of market), then that blaring headline is just false. So, you really need to go beyond "I dont care what is indigenization! You said 50% , but we are at 90%" . Maybe it is not HAL's problem at all!

Since you seem to have such soup-e-rear reading skills that digested that report, can you please enlighten us to what this "value of material" means, so that there can be an objective understanding of what it is ?

You must ask HAL what they meant by 50% indigenisation first. They have not been contesting CAG's claims of only 10% indigenisation. Infact, the Chief of HAL Helicopter Complex, Mr. R. Srinivasan, has gone on an indefinite leave after this report was tabled. Co-incidence? I think not! It only goes to show that some things are terribly wrong with the ALH program. Do not demonize CAG for doing its job or reporting what it finds.

[Austin]

CAG is like a film critique they even find faults even with super hit films , ALH is the only product that has managed to gain significant customer in defence force and export success.

Lets not belittle it with indigenous content of some x percent as long as ALH keeps gain inroad into armed forces and can gain more export customers it can be qualified as a success since this is our very first attempt.

[Vikram W]

The CAG is only doing its job. HAL has been pulling other wool over the nation's eyes too.
for example , the only thing Indian about the Shakti engine is the name. HAL has not even tried to locally assemble the engine ( let alone manufacture) in what is supposed to be a JV.

[Uttam]

CAG is like a film critique they even find faults even with super hit films , ALH is the only product that has managed to gain significant customer in defence force and export success.

Lets not belittle it with indigenous content of some x percent as long as ALH keeps gain inroad into armed forces and can gain more export customers it can be qualified as a success since this is our very first attempt.

My 2 cents.. (a flag waving lurker when it comes to defense topics)

An economics lesson from 200 years ago. One should do what one is best at and trade with people who do other things better (Ricardo circa 1800's). I assume cost of a helicopter is a lot more than the cost of its components. 90% imported components still means the value addition by HAL to ALH is much more than 10%, because they are the system integrator. Let's for a moment assume that we are good at system integration but lack knowledge in material sciences, engine design, etc. I don't see a problem why any product should be belittled just for the fact that most of the material used is imported. Like Tata's may be using most of the imported computers and software used in design of Nano, they may even have imported most of the plastics and adhesives used in it, but they came up with a damn good product. Same can be said about ALH.

On the other hand CAG has a job to do. Their job is to make sure what was promised is delivered. If it is was not, somebody should be made accountable for making an overreaching promises.

[jaladipc]

^^^

Completely agree with that.They even got consultancy from Eurocopter for the designing of screw-drivers and wrenches.
HAL is an untmost example of babudom which lacks a vision and tries to move things under the carpet away from the common man to create a dillusion that it is one of those big R&D bosses.
If I own a company and does a license building of various jets and choppers for atleast half a century,I would have came out with better design for either and would have came out with my own screw-drivers and wrenches needed to assemble them.

[abrahavt]

What is worse is that that IAF is now wary of using the helicopters after loosing two pilots in a crash due the cyclic saturation problem which has yet to be addressed and seems to have been swept under the carpet by HAL.

[Tamang]

Crew member killed after falling from helicopter

The crew member, Dhananjay Roy, fell to his death when the door of the 24-seater MI-17 belonging to the state-run Pawan Hans Helicopter Limited opened suddenly, official sources said.

There were five crew members and five passengers on board, they said.

The accident occurred five minutes after the helicopter took off from Namsai town in Lohit district at 0615 hours when it was flying over the Lathao town, officials in the Mohanbari air traffic control said.

[Craig Alpert]

Here you go again, trying to bite your own tail. I am not sure what this "value of material" means. IFF it is BOM (google for it, if you dont know what it is) then the headlines "ALH is 90% foreign " blaring headlines of Rahul Bedi and ilk are correct. If it is just 90% is imported "raw material" (as it seems to be from the context) and they have not been able to locate indigenous suppliers of raw material (so that is really not HAL's problem is it,if Indian industry doesn't feel worthwhile investing and making small lots of specialized aero materials given small size of market), then that blaring headline is just false. So, you really need to go beyond "I dont care what is indigenization! You said 50% , but we are at 90%" . Maybe it is not HAL's problem at all!

Maybe you outta re-read the report AGAIN!!!

It clearly mentions in the report that HAL choose NOT to procure materials from the INDIAN markets, becuase that would mean a DELAY IN PRODUCTION CAPABILITY. Indigenious Procuments of materials means they have to RE CERTIFY AND RE TEST it all again, which is NOT feasible for HAL as it is ALREADY LAGGING behind their FULL PRODUCTION CAPABILITY!!!!

Now as far as Industry NOT WILLING to produce the indigenious materials, here's a bright idea, as a babudum type why don't you fund them and if HAL does not select them you can bear the losses! In the end it all boils down to money, if there is no gurantee from HAL why would they venture into risky territory??

[JimmyJ]

I guess there is an easy way out of this, Dismantle and sell HAL in pieces, so since there is no HAL, there is no ALH, since there is no ALH there is no damned CAG report, since there is no damned CAG report everyone is happy.

This is how the story board goes every where.
1. Some one asks why we can't design & build in India given the human resource and blah bah blah.
2. When some one starts building they say, oooh it is going to be hopeless it won't even fly they should better take a foreign JV.
3. When it starts flying they say good for nothing better are others but if they take JV and does the same they say it is screw drivers..........
4. And at the end they will say below expectation, not indigenous, cost higher than estimated.....But Gripen, it is suuuuper....... wah re wah

It should be damn easy to take sides.

Sorry for the rant, but can't help it.

[vina]

Why don't consultants count when they are guys who are conducting audit and the audit report signed by them is the one that gets forwarded to the Cabinet? Vina, it seems you are desperately arguing simply to prove your point which I don't agree and doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Rubbish. They are not GOI employees, they cant sign anything that needs to be done only by a constitutional body like the CAG , like a govt audit ,and that will require a gazetted officer notified by the Govt and put out in the President's name.

Its not being dependent from Conception, Designing and Manufacturing on any country/state or organization which is not Indian or not an Independent entity functioning under the constitution of India and follows the Indian state directives.

Right.. So it has to be "immaculately conceived" in India . That is what you guys tried doing from 1950 to 1991 when the entire economic model collapsed.. Hello, heard of the reforms of 1991?.

Also, check out what your kindred soul, Dear Leader, Kim Jong IL, "Son of the Heavens" is doing in North Korea. They have something called "Juche" that is exactly what you said (cut India and replace with North Korea in what you wrote). From what I see, North Korea is a terminal basket case, while a globally open market oriented S.Korea is a 1st world nation.

The reason there is no improvement in ambassador and Shaktiman is not because of the thought of indigenous development, its the sheer incompetence of the agencies involved. Our MIC is not hampered by though indigenous development but by the sheer incompetence of the people/organizations involved.

Right.. Shaktiman and Ambassador were not "improved" because of "incompetence" and not because of economic structures and models and deliberate policy prescriptions and choices. So does that mean that the entire socialist planners who were responsible for that kind of thing were "incompetent". That would be funny because one went on to win a noble prize and another a two term Prime Minister and still other leading globally recognized economic thinkers!.

I don't think you understood what I wish to imply.

Wow!. You ask a question specifically of 15 L engines and MULTI-Axle trucks (with highlights) and somehow there is an "implied" question that someone has to guess at!. All the same, there is no "need" for a 15L engine. All the dumpers, cement mixers seem to work fine with the lower capacity engines we have. Tata have a 50/50 JV with Cummins and make the engines in India (so it is "indigenous" really by your definition) and AL makes Hino engines in India (again "indigenous"), so don't really know what the problem is.

But due to any reason if Tata and AL had developed that engine, we would had basic building blocks in place to easily develop a Turbo Diesel engine for Arjun.

That is completely irrational . Why will anyone put a tank engine that develops 1500 hp and works for a max of 10,000 hrs on a truck that requires a fraction of that power and needs to work some large multiple times that number of hours and where fuel efficiency is crucial!.

And why will they develop an engine for someone , who is bound by policy NOT to buy from them ?. India already was making a Leyland engine for the Vijayanta,and Russian engines for the T-55 and T-72 all "indigenously" I assure you, so if anyone had any incentive to develop tank engines it is your "indigenous" folks!. But then given your "Juche" like head stuck in the sand, they can only do "indigenous" of existing things and not make a new engine!.

So, we always have dependence on foreign companies and governments and always prone to their restrictions. All the things you say just makes sense for Civilian stuff but definitely not for military requirements. In military and for defending the country, profit is not the most critical parameter.

Welcome to the real world and the 21st century. No country is an island, unless you want to be North Korea. You cant make everything and "autoarky" is not workable. You have to pick and choose what you want to make based on what you are good and and then trade with the rest of the world.

[vina]

If I own a company and does a license building of various jets and choppers for atleast half a century,I would have came out with better design for either and would have came out with my own screw-drivers and wrenches needed to assemble them.

Sorry. You NEVER will. What you will do is continue to keep making the same stuff with the same equipment and try your damnedest and make sure that no else can compete with you by entering your captive market.

Anything else is utterly irrational. You have NO incentive to do what you just said, especially something as risky as new product development and spend on R&D. That is exactly what the Indian experience proved, both in the public and private sectors. 50 years of Ambassador and 30 years of Vespa scooter (renamed as Bajaj Scooter ) , 30 years of Shaktiman trucks etc.

You will do it ONLY if you are threatened by competition and you either have to do something different or die . In the Govt you cannot die, so you can simply do nothing , the tax payers will continue to feed you. That is all.

And of course, some "insiders" like the CAG will come and put out some "reports" that will get "forwarded" to the "Cabinet" (as if anyone really cares about the CAG and it's reports and if it materially means anything at all) and a few headlines and it is back to business as usual.

If you really want anything different, introduce competition, list the company in the market and change the fundamental economic structural problems and distortions that were introduced because of "socialism" and the attendant 100% indigenous fetish.

[ShivaS]

vina saab, on the dot.

on a little deviant note
If CWG can shelter so much curruption under the falling roofs, imagine defence deals which are opaque from public eye, should be sheltering.
Now CAG says stale food for Jawans, and that too for chaps in Saichen?

Where do we start cleaning up the mess?. Bofors money (kick backs) amounts seem peanuts and worth the bribe compared to the current tamasha going on.

Oh well the less we speak of ASC the better.

[Kartik]

The CAG is only doing its job. HAL has been pulling other wool over the nation's eyes too.
for example , the only thing Indian about the Shakti engine is the name. HAL has not even tried to locally assemble the engine ( let alone manufacture) in what is supposed to be a JV.

that is not true, so do some research before blabbering BS on BRF. "Only thing Indian being the name" indeed..
This was given in the 17th Parliamentary report. The report states that

"ETBRDC was given the responsibility of design and supply of oil pumps, oil cooling system, the filter unit and the external dressing. Engineers of ETBRDC also took part in casing modelling, rotor dynamics and stress analysis at Turbomeca, France"

Why Indians have to always keep pulling themselves down is beyond me..look at the Pakis..they haven't the foggiest idea what contribution Pakis made and yet there is not one Paki who won't tout the JF-17 as being a "joint co-development" project.

[Kartik]

I guess there is an easy way out of this, Dismantle and sell HAL in pieces, so since there is no HAL, there is no ALH, since there is no ALH there is no damned CAG report, since there is no damned CAG report everyone is happy.

This is how the story board goes every where.
1. Some one asks why we can't design & build in India given the human resource and blah bah blah.
2. When some one starts building they say, oooh it is going to be hopeless it won't even fly they should better take a foreign JV.
3. When it starts flying they say good for nothing better are others but if they take JV and does the same they say it is screw drivers..........
4. And at the end they will say below expectation, not indigenous, cost higher than estimated.....But Gripen, it is suuuuper....... wah re wah

It should be damn easy to take sides.

Sorry for the rant, but can't help it.

you basically caught the drift that is plaguing India's media as well as the average Indian.

first the criticizm and rants and ravings that nothing is done in India, we are useless onlee..when its done and takes time (as it does elsewhere) its criticised again, and when outside help is sought, there is more criticism..if no outside help is sought and the project takes time, there is criticism all around and finally, if and when the product is ready, operationalized and is 15% or more cheaper than imported maal but has imported content (as do the majority of imported products themselves) it is again criticised..Indians seem to be predisposed towards mocking anything Indian the moment anything untoward is said about an Indian product, and our media leads the way in this mock parade.

bloody hell just look at the Saab Gripen that you mentioned..nearly 50% of it is imported, and Saab acts as an integrator, yet how many fans it has on this board itself and among media too. its engine, radar, IRST, weapons, APU, nearly every other part of it is sourced from non-Swedish, non-Saab companies..Boeing does that all the time on its civilian and military products, sourcing parts and entire modules from different firms in different countries. They do it to stay cost-competitive, HAL does it in part because there aren't firms in India with the requisite know-how or the required product line.

I have been asking this time and again. No one stops the automotive industry in India from innovating and spending on R&D do they ? And yet what majorly world-class product has the private sector come up with ? They have a huge, nearly captive market in India's middle class and yet what has the private sector in India got to show for itself ?

[Craig Alpert]

^^^ Blindly criticizing everyone (navy, iaf, hal, drdo, btw where is the army? I thought they would be leading contenders for the top honors) in a public report is not helping any one. In fact, CAG audit is spoiling chances of HAL winning more export orders for Dhruv.

You ask and you shall receive

The CAG also stated the failure of the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE)'s and Small Arms Factory (SAF) Kanpur, to develop and produce 5.56 mm INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) Carbine even after 13 years and incurring an expenditure of Rs 22.18 crore.

Other irregularities in the report are, the excess and incorrect provisioning of authorisation of ammunition for AK-47 rifle 234.23 lakh rounds of ammunition valuing Rs 44.50 crore.

Misuse of financial powers by General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, of the Chandimandir-based Western Command, for purchase of golf carts and utilisation of defence land by a Golf Course.

The officer in question is Lieutenant General T K Sapru, who commanded the Western Command in 2008-2009.

The CAG report slams the Army's use of the golf course without payment of rent for almost two decades, amounting to around Rs 54.95 crore.

Construction of accommodation for three army units and special repairs for three buildings was sanctioned at a cost of Rs 57.65 lakh, but finally in 2007 the repair for all three units was carried out under one contract , which was completed in February 2008. The Corps was commanded by the present Army Chief, General V K Singh, in 2007-08.

[Vikram W]

The CAG is only doing its job. HAL has been pulling other wool over the nation's eyes too.
for example , the only thing Indian about the Shakti engine is the name. HAL has not even tried to locally assemble the engine ( let alone manufacture) in what is supposed to be a JV.

that is not true, so do some research before blabbering BS on BRF. "Only thing Indian being the name" indeed..
This was given in the 17th Parliamentary report. The report states that

"ETBRDC was given the responsibility of design and supply of oil pumps, oil cooling system, the filter unit and the external dressing. Engineers of ETBRDC also took part in casing modelling, rotor dynamics and stress analysis at Turbomeca, France"

Why Indians have to always keep pulling themselves down is beyond me..look at the Pakis..they haven't the foggiest idea what contribution Pakis made and yet there is not one Paki who won't tout the JF-17 as being a "joint co-development" project.

I would be more than happy to read through the JPC report , if you would be so nice to give me a link to it.
But from what i read in your link this was a joint venture for oil pumps, cooling systems et al. But I hope you do get the gist of what i was trying to say here. If you use the mosaic theory and put two and two togather....as things stand we are buying engines from turbomeca. ( for example the recent negotiations for engines and gearbox for the LOH/LUH), the writings on the wall. We did not co develop the engine, if we did we would be selling the engine , not paying in full per engine to turbomeca.

[Craig Alpert]

[Vikram W]

Also, one of the most expensive parts of the chopper right now is the engine. about time we indigenise.

[CalvinH]

is this 90% -10% debate based on financial numbers. One can have 90% home grown stuff in the product but the ratio in financial terms could still be 90% foregin if the remaining 10% cost 90% of the overall price.

Basically if CAG report is purely focusing on numbers and financial processes (like a typical accouting firm) more analysis in needed on other factors.

[prastor]

is this 90% -10% debate based on financial numbers. One can have 90% home grown stuff in the product but the ratio in financial terms could still be 90% foregin if the remaining 10% cost 90% of the overall price.

Basically if CAG report is purely focusing on numbers and financial processes (like a typical accouting firm) more analysis in needed on other factors.

Yes CalvinH, the 90% imports figure is in terms of financial value. Like you said, it could very well be 90% Indian stuff but accounting to just 10% value wise. But, the report clearly states that HAL promised a 50% indigenised value for the project. CAG merely pointed out that the promise was not kept.

[Victor]

The CAG report shows unsophisticated management that is focused on the technical side and has little or no appreciation for responsibility and goal-setting based project management. It seems projects were left with shifting goalposts, open-ended definitions and vague objectives with no understanding of the downside of possible outcomes and things were done on an ad hoc basis, possibly depending on the "leader" at any given time. This is why when HAL "promised 50% indigenous", they (and the bean-counters) had not thought to define exactly WHAT 50% was to be indigenous. The CAG people are quite likely just narrow-minded bean counters, not broad-thinking, desh-bhakt project managers, and they chose to define the 50% in terms of MATERIALS for whatever reason. If this dark comedy is true, it would explain the Keystone-Cops-ish bumblings of our people all these decades in producing what the country needs so desperately. Not just at HAL but at DRDO and GTRE also.

In short, there seems to be a total absence of modern management techniques being utilized. Scary and very sad if true but the results seem to point that way. How else can we explain the utter failure to successfully produce even basic weapons systems after so many decades? No wonder we have been manipulated easily by the sophisticated arms merchants all these decades, not just from the big countries but also tiny countries like Singapore. We need some really hard-nosed managers in charge in this environment quickly and make sure they have a clear responsibility for results or we are in deep trouble.

With the money involved and a culture of corruption from top to bottom, you can be sure that interested parties will exploit these kinks 24/7.

[Pratik_S]

Also what happened after a CAG report on Bofors Gun in 1989? Army is still without modern artillery. CAG is only good for criticism, not for any constructive thoughts

Thats because CAG is a critic, it a auditing body and every such body has just one job i.e to find deficiency and to criticize.

[Craig Alpert]

OFFICIAL REBUTTAL FROM HAL regarding ALH DHRUV and CAG'S critisim

CAG: Despite more than two decades, the technical requirements finalised in 1979 by Army and Air Force were not fully achieved resulting in flying of the 74 ALH supplied by the Company to defence customers with concessions.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: The requirements were very demanding. The requirement to land at 20000 ft with 200 kg payload is something no helicopter in the world met till Dhruv with Shakti engine came in. The services also need to temper their requirements based on reach of available technology and expertise. Now, finally with Shakti we meet all the requirements with very minor exceptions.


CAG: Taking up Limited Series Production (LSP) of ALH (2001-2003) even while the prototypes were being flight tested (1992-2003) and certified, was premature as large number of design problems were encountered during the manufacturing.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Taking up LSP was OK but we should have stopped there and waited for feed backs. But again it was a first time for HAL, now we have better experience.

CAG: By not freezing the design of ALH and keeping the development stage open the Company had to accommodate the increasing demand of the customer for latest and additional requirements. This led to 363 modifications in 34 helicopters (total 74 supplied to Defence customers).
Reply by HAL source: I think HAL should be commended for taking it on themselves to improve the product even most were non-flight safety critical.

CAG: The ALH, which was to be successor to Cheetah/Chetak was found to be unsuitable for the intended multi-role requirements due to excess weight and limited power of the engine. ALH with ‘Shakti’ (higher-powered engine) which was planned to be certified in December 2006 is yet to be certified even after a delay of three years resulting in postponement of delivery schedule of 20 ALH with Shakti engine from 2008-09 to 2009-10.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: ALH carries far more than Chetak/Cheetah and it is a heavier class of chopper.

CAG: Weapon system integration (WSI) version of ALH has not been developed even after a lapse of 10 years (1998 to 2009). In the absence of clear understanding of the requirements between Navy and the Company, the amount of Rs. 138 crore spent on the project has not resulted in any tangible benefit to the customer.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Navy is not interested in purchasing WSI Dhruv.

CAG: The Company could not penetrate into the international market in the absence of international certificate in spite of showcasing ALH in the air shows. The Company could not successfully execute even the orders received from civil market.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Dhruv is flying in Ecuador, Mauritius, Maldives and Nepal. If we have EASA certification, the sales would be faster. The process is on to get the same.

CAG: As against the envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent, about 90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is procured from foreign suppliers.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: HAL cannot make everything as it is not economically prudent. The civil industry has not come of age in India. Globally too, no company makes all components.

CAG recommendations:

CAG: Series production should be taken up only after prototypes are approved/certified and accepted by the customer.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: It would consideraly delay the project. Users are involved in the testing and their inputs are incorporated. The model followed for Dhruv of concorruent production is the globally accepted process.

CAG: Modifications desired by the customer should be with reference to a time frame and technical competency of the Company.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Stands to logic refer Q1

CAG: The capacity should be ramped up as to peak up production as planned.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

CAG: The Company should quicken the process of submitting the documents and obtain the certifications early.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

CAG: As the Company has entered the highly competitive civilian/ export markets the design/quality issues need to be resolved early to gain the confidence of the customers to remain in the market.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

CAG: The Company should expedite efforts to get International certificate on priority to be a global player. The Company should exploit civil market by executing the orders successfully and consider options of sale technique through leasing of ALH.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

CAG: Concerted efforts are needed to achieve the desired (50 per cent) level of indigenisation.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Not possible for another 10 years.[/size]

Additional queries by the blogger:

Tarmak007: Is it true that the Finance Dept is playing the 'dirty game' in delaying procurement? Please explain.
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

Tarmak007: Is the mind-wars between the Fixed Wing and Rotary Wing lobbies within HAL affecting the Dhruv program?
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: --

Tarmak007: Have things gone out of control after Nayak took over as chairman?
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: --

Tarmak007: Are the designers, engineers and workmen doing their bit to make the project a success?
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Yes

Tarmak007: What in your view can stem the rot in HAL, if any? How can we clear the mess and salvage the pride now?
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: Free it from bureaucratic wrangles.

Tarmak007: Finally, what are the flaws in HAL's marketing plans w.r.t. ALH? What needs to be done make the product more successful?
Reply to Tarmak007 by an HAL source: First prove the product then it will market itself.