MRCA News and Discussion

[parshuram]

With Typhoon, there is one ace up its sleeve. EJ2000. The engine which propels the fighter. This is another gas turbine based engine. Grippen is powered by an American Engine. Knowing the history of Indo-US relationships, this is one thing we should be extremely wary of. EJ2000 is a variant of a gas turbine engine which Rolls Royce built. With UK eagerly to have a "special relationship" with us, we can work out something to our benefit. Typhoon will be an expensive proposition. Comparable to Rafael. But Typhoon is already in service with Saudi Arabian Airforce. This means that Pakis and eventually the chinese will be able to lay hands on this fighter. Similarly UAE has ordered some pretty advanced Rafael fighters. This also will be accessible by the Pakis and the chinks.

With Due respect By this logic PAF is already having hands on Typhoon ... as Saudi's are flying it and soon they will get hands on Rafales too.. and probably the should feel rest assured with PLAFF Su 30 MKK's too ... due to there marriage with Chinese, Sorry But a Ridiculous Speculation. Indeed Many countries Baksheeshed PAF in history , but that does not mean that they will do it in future ..

Possibility is remote and with India firing AGNI V next year , message should be Loud and clear..

[Dmurphy]

If you want the price for the plane you finally chose to be as low as possible, why axe the cheapest one?

Dear Henrik, while I partly agree with you, axing the cheapest one here will also salvage our most prestigious project in the field of aircraft development. One can't really put a price tag on that. Yes, its very much needed to bring the down the price of costly ones and may be thats the reason they might keep Gripen "hanging on" in the competition a little longer.

I really don't think Indian politicians are willing to spend billions of dollars on a plane that the pakis also have. Sounds like a political suicide to me.

While I too don't advocate buying a plane which pakis have, buying a plane which has an engine and a radar outsourced from a foreign country - a country with a taste for imposing sanctions entails both a strategic as well as political suicide.

[Henrik]

With afterthought you should have designed and built a carrier instead. A STOBAR carrier can't be that hard to build?

[Henrik]

If you want the price for the plane you finally chose to be as low as possible, why axe the cheapest one?

Dear Henrik, while I partly agree with you, axing the cheapest one here will also salvage our most prestigious project in the field of aircraft development. One can't really put a price tag on that. Yes, its very much needed to bring the down the price of costly ones and may be thats the reason they might keep Gripen "hanging on" in the competition a little longer.

I really don't think Indian politicians are willing to spend billions of dollars on a plane that the pakis also have. Sounds like a political suicide to me.

While I too don't advocate on buying a plane which pakis have, buying a plane which has an engine and a radar outsourced from a foreign country - a country with a taste for imposing sanctions entails both a strategic as well as political suicide.

If you mean the Gripen, the radar is Swedish/British, not American.
The engine won't be an issue, according to all parties involved.

But if you say that Swedish, British, American and Russian is out of the question for you, that will leave just the French, who as far as I know are the only ones in the EU lobbying for weapon sales to China. So, who would it be?

[Dmurphy]

^^^ Oops, my bad...overlooked the radar origin part.

But I'd rather go with the British or French. British - because David Cameron's too cool and the French being the only ones in the EU lobbying and Rafale's first real sale dangling in front of them, I don't think they'll do anything so stupid.

[Henrik]

^^^ Oops, my bad...overlooked the radar origin part.

But I'd rather go with the British or French. British - because David Cameron's too cool and the French being the only ones in the EU lobbying and Rafale's first real sale dangling in front of them, I don't think they'll do anything so stupid.

I agree with the Cameron part, I think he'll be able to drag Britain to it's feet again. But he's got a HUGE task ahead of him..

[BalaP]

In my view the FA-18 would be the best value for money proposition,in economic,technological and geopolitical terms.Our foremost rival is China and it has become progessively belligerent.The US is the only power capable of containing this menace in the foreseeable future.This process has already begun in the pacific rim. Till India can produce advanced weapons all by itself,the currently superior weapons of the US can counterbalance the numerical edge that China has

[yantra]

.....the currently superior weapons of the US can counterbalance the numerical edge that China has

What makes you think US will give us "the currently superior weapons of the US" and allow us to use it against Pak/China when need arises for us?

Why do you view F-18 as "best value for money", when Typhoon and Rafale are in competition and Europe offers a "better" ToT than US?

[prastor]

Better value for money if when we can gain technology from the deal to develop our own engines and radars. Whichever plane comes with such a promise will win even if it means extra costs in initial stages of acquiring such a plane.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and not a FACT. So, please do not take my case again and again on that.

[sawant]

But Typhoon is already in service with Saudi Arabian Airforce. This means that Pakis and eventually the chinese will be able to lay hands on this fighter. Similarly UAE has ordered some pretty advanced Rafael fighters. This also will be accessible by the Pakis and the chinks.

In that sense Pak must know all the intricacies of the Flankers from the Chicoms and who knows some of them are practising with the Chiforce at this very moment. But they will still be flying Bandars and solahs isnt it.... that knowledge is just that. It may only help to hone tactics, but then every plane has its limitations and when our AF trains I would assume all they think is of downing the enemy with all they got...

[sawant]

another RUMOR!!!! unless there is an official press release suggesting otherwise, this is just a ONE BIG CIRCUS!

I sometimes wonder if I were a IAF pilot ( and I was not privy to insider info ) how I would be tossing in sleep wondering which beauty I will be laying my hands on... esp if I were a Mig-21 pilot... gosh I hope GOI makes the decision quickly b4 some of our finest retire !

[shukla]

another RUMOR!!!! unless there is an official press release suggesting otherwise, this is just a ONE BIG CIRCUS!

I sometimes wonder if I were a IAF pilot ( and I was not privy to insider info ) how I would be tossing in sleep wondering which beauty I will be laying my hands on... esp if I were a Mig-21 pilot... gosh I hope GOI makes the decision quickly b4 some of our finest retire !

.. or get killed in tragic crashes ..

[P Chitkara]

Although OT, I will state the risk of posting it. Right now khan is asking us to keep quiet on the union carbide compensation. This is when so many lost their lives. At the other end of the spectrum, they have made BP agree to $21 billion where there has been no loss of life, livelihood may have been affected though.

Now, if they try to arm twist us on a genuine issue, what makes people think same tactics wont be used once we give them such a huge leverage on us.

Warning to Turkey, thier very old ally being a case in point. Look at what happened to the begger next door as well. It will be much better not to have the very best with strings attached than somehting which is not the best but comes without strings.

[Christopher Sidor]

But Typhoon is already in service with Saudi Arabian Airforce. This means that Pakis and eventually the chinese will be able to lay hands on this fighter. Similarly UAE has ordered some pretty advanced Rafael fighters. This also will be accessible by the Pakis and the chinks.

In that sense Pak must know all the intricacies of the Flankers from the Chicoms and who knows some of them are practising with the Chiforce at this very moment. But they will still be flying Bandars and solahs isnt it.... that knowledge is just that. It may only help to hone tactics, but then every plane has its limitations and when our AF trains I would assume all they think is of downing the enemy with all they got...

This is precisely the point. Barring the LCA there is no fighter, which we have, that is not accessible to our enemies. Grippen, if handled properly, will give us that ability. Also Grippen NG might have a 5th Generation version, if rumours on what Sweden is offering are to be believed. Typhoon/F-16/FA-18 will definitely not have a 5th generation version. Dont know about the road map for rafael, so cannot comment on it. With a 5th Generation Grippen/LCA and 5th Generation PAK-FA our skies will be secure against chinese aircraft.

Regarding the SU-30, even though our MKI and chinese MKK are built in two different factories and designed by two different groups, we failed to initiate a pact with russia that this fighter will not be sold to our enemies. We practically paid half the money to get this fighter off the ground and yet chinese were sold a similar aircraft.
This is something that I wish we should avoid with the MRCA fighter.

[MarcH]

India can't afford the medium fighters of the lot anyway. 10 billion $ for 126 fighters ? Yeah, sure. Saudi Arabia just signed a contract worth 60 billion for 84 F-15, 70 Blackhawk and Longbow helicopters.

[Dmurphy]

Saudi Arabia just signed a contract worth 60 billion for 84 F-15, 70 Blackhawk and Longbow helicopters

Yes, but do the Saudis have as much local industry support as we have here, which will go a long way in bringing the final prices down?

[Rahul M]

Marc, thanks for the revelation, I had no idea that India's military deals are decided by saudi arabia.
are you perchance an octopus by the way ?

[sourab_c]

Interesting Interview by the pilot of the F-18 that crashed last July.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... canadanews

He claims that he was trying to get out of a High Alpha pass but lost control. Listening to his story, I think that the underpowered F-18 engines may have something to do with it.

[MarcH]

Call it trolling, but how will 126 aircraft that cost upward $ 75 mill flyaway fit into a $ 10 bill budget ? 500 mill for arms, support equipment and basic spareparts isn't possible.

are you perchance an octopus by the way ?

yellow

[Rahul M]

what exactly is the import of your post ? India will select some aircraft after this long and painful selection drama and suddenly declare that it has no money for the aircraft ?

you really think that's going to happen ?

[wig]

Call it trolling, but how will 126 aircraft that cost upward $ 75 mill flyaway fit into a $ 10 bill budget ? 500 mill for arms, support equipment and basic spareparts isn't possible.

are you perchance an octopus by the way ?

yellow

sir,
India does not lack money, and; certainly not for protecting itself. We need the best machines and it is the IAF types who are the professionals who can and should decide in what machine they feel safest - helping our enemies attain a quick martyrdom.
money to buy the best equipment is not a problem. Our economy supported these iniatiatives even earlier. In the sixties i recall people donated personal assets (gold) and whatever else unflinchingly to ensure that the soldiers have the best.
hence, sir, perish the thought that our economy lacks money for our very own equipment. the economy has been the most robust it has been in the recent past and is growing better every day. such a big ticket pruchase if negotiated carefully will bring offsets in the way of manufacturing/ servicing of some of these machines in India. This will further enhance the manufacturing skills of the aviation industry at large.

[Carl_T]

The cost of the program could increase just as our military budget will in the future, all the money isn't going to be paid at once so increase of a few billion may not make that much of a difference to the MRCA cost. Or maybe the 10B is the present value of all the different fixed payments.

[S_Pawar]

I just hope the rumor about IAF shortlisting Rafale and EF typhoon comes true. Probably we can add Gripen just so France and Euro consortium enters into a secret deal push us into a corner during the negotiations. My first post. yippie

[Indranil]

Interesting Interview by the pilot of the F-18 that crashed last July.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... canadanews

He claims that he was trying to get out of a High Alpha pass but lost control. Listening to his story, I think that the underpowered F-18 engines may have something to do with it.

That particular tail walk would not have flexed the engines to the max. If you wouldn't take my word , take the pilots word. He says he went for increasing the power to climb-away of the maneuver once he felt the down draft and buffeting.

One of his engines had shut off. The reason is unknown (atleast to me). Now with one engine failing, he wouldn't have made it out of that maneuver with any present-day aircraft

[Surya]

If you have been to any half decent air show in the US , this is routinely performed by the F 18 and\or the Blue Angels.

[SKrishna]

Shiv Aroor's contribution to the rumor mill....


MiG 35 was never in the running

[S_Pawar]

I guess then F 16 will be out of contention too.

[putnanja]

I guess then F 16 will be out of contention too.

You forgot the political and strategic aspirations that the aircraft order is supposed to fulfill, as per that article. Given that, there is no doubt that it is going to be one of the US planes. As PAF too operates F-16 and is basically a souped up 70s generation plane, F/A-18 will probably be the winner. The USN operates it too, for at least another decade or so.

[Devesh Rawal]

hmm. I guess I will be happy to see a final showdown between the SH, the EF and the Rafale. It might just come down to which govt pushes the most to GOI w.r.t. these platforms.

The US has a very definitive plan for a 5th gen aircraft as we know. This maybe OT, but I don't seem to recall anything from the EU towards a similar program? Is Britain going to be satisfied with being on the F-35 bandwagon? What are the plans for the armée de l'air beyond the Rafale? or the Luftwaffe? Up until the F22/F35 programs, EU was not really behind in terms of aircraft platforms when compared to the US. Mirages and Tornados etc.

Times are a-changing. Could a FGFA in the future manufactured in India be on the shopping list of the RAF or Luftwaffe? (yes, I'm dreaming)

Take over licensed production of the EF2000, I say!

[girish.r]

I killed a chicken yesterday and looked at its entrails....

the visions predict it will be EF + GripenNG - both from EU stable - in a 40:60 split.

Hope this comes true......

[jaladipc]

Lol,
I am now taking the honor of changing my quote from

200 on Typhoon

to

2000 on same Typhoon

[D Roy]

there shouldn't be any split...

and I think EF is the only thing worth pursuing, special relationship and all that.

Ultimately Europe has the best track record in cooperating with India on fighter development from Dr Kurt Tank individually to consultancy from the Anglo-French in the 80s for the LCA programmme

[JimmyJ]

But when it comes to meaningful industrial collaboration, the Indian government feels the Russians are better at selling and license building, rather than true blue industrial cooperation."

Isn't the French the sibling of Russia in that case? Some how Typhoon chances continues to rise

[chackojoseph]

Juro phiter has uncles parts

Northrop Grumman to deliver 88 inertial measurement units (IMU) for Tranche 3A of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Link

[koti]

But when it comes to meaningful industrial collaboration, the Indian government feels the Russians are better at selling and license building, rather than true blue industrial cooperation."

Isn't the French the sibling of Russia in that case? Some how Typhoon chances continues to rise

True.
But there can still be a good deal of learning when dealing with French.
From the previous projects, I felt Collaborating with the Russian firms did not yield systems that have Indian priorities.

[Christopher Sidor]

But when it comes to meaningful industrial collaboration, the Indian government feels the Russians are better at selling and license building, rather than true blue industrial cooperation."

True.
But there can still be a good deal of learning when dealing with French.
From the previous projects, I felt Collaborating with the Russian firms did not yield systems that have Indian priorities.

Beg to differ. Mig-29KUB/MIG-29K were two fighters which the russikies developed to the exacting standards of IAF. Having worked with IAF as a contractor, I know what high level of compliance they expect and demand. Similarly PAK-FA and SU-30MKI were fighters which were developed again to Indian specifications. In fact it is only the ruskies till now, which have offered us the co-development of a 5th Generation Aircraft. US has offered to make us the partner in JSF, but it is a fighter whose major work has been completed.

The only problem with russkies is one that all off our major eggs are in russkies basket, like SU-30MKI, Mig29KUB, etc. And secondly russkies penchant to supply weapon systems to china, from where the same weapon systems may or have already percolated to the pakis. Case in point is the engine of JF-17 Thunder, Klimov RD-93, which is actually a Russian engine.

[Philip]

AWST seems to differ from Shiv Aroor,though I personally do not think that the MIG-35 will win,since we are already engaged in 5th-gen fighter development,acquiring a large number of upgraded Flankers and unless it comes in at an unbeatable price.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416135612&e=true

Excerpts:
Winner announced not before end 2011.
Tests had "643 test points",results forwarded as "tabulated data, without a quantification of the level of compliance achieved".
"Cost and politics will play a role in the DM's selection",a senior IAF official reported.

Sarko came with a big offer of TOT.All 6 contestants will receive a 250 page manual of evaluation and problems experienced.These included failures of "engines,large electro-mechanical actuation systems,and airworthiness certification problems.."

The extra SU-30 order mentioned,"talks continuing with Russia reg. the 5th-gen fighter,"programme valued at $8 billion",and "not clear if the talks would not work to the advantage of the MIG-35..."

This indicates that each manufacturer is trying to link the MMRCA deal with a "goodie".The French have their TOT and Mirage-2000 upgrades,EADS with their TOT,extensive investment in Indian aerospace industry,etc.etc.,The US probably with other defence items.
However,the key issue appears to be transfer of tech.,enabling India to gain the cutting edge tech that will allow it to build its own designs in the future,with or without too much of foreign help.It would also be most interesting to find out which aircraft had "engine failures",actuator problems,etc.major defects like this would certainly place the aircraft down on the list,or have it dropped altogether.

[P Chitkara]

Phillip, you really are a rodina fan

[S_Pawar]

I am just beginning to wonder where will the MMRCA exactly fit in. I mean LCA will get the IOC by this yearend and FOC by 2012. by then the mark 2 will be ready and the good thing about LCA is they can be produced quickly. If so by 2014 we should be having all the mark 1 and possibly the LSP 's of mark 2. By 2016 PAKFA should start to come in. Even if we sign the MMRCA by next yearend optimistically we wont get our first plane before 2014. any delays in TOT will cause even furthur delays. so the very purpose we started MMRCA is getting defeated. Gurus please correct me if I am wrong.

[P Chitkara]

LCA MK1 & MK2 >> Light
MRCA >> Medium
MKI >> Heavy