Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 May 2009 06:44

Guru log what is this much reported satellite launch to happen next year? One more thing as talks to buy 3 more beauties are in advanced stages India will be having half dozen of those in its inventory. Does country sized like India really needs 6 AWACS to secure its future? Honestly, myself thought 3 would suffice and do needful.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 26 May 2009 07:03

During wartime, its going to take more than 6 AWACs to cover all the borders and threats. The Satellite may be the way to bring the Awacs where it needs to be at anytime.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 May 2009 07:40

AnantD wrote: Looks like its loaded with antennas, look at the ones above the tail!

Those are in fond respect for Ben Franklin, ligtening rods.

Can the Chapati be made in desi (DRDO Dhaba's) and then on top of Ivans rugged flying machines (hope there is no Ukranian content)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2009 07:48

AD (long time),

The 76s are upgraded in every aspect - engines, cockpit, etc - not the normal 76s.

The proposed sat is a dedicated sat for comm, the snooper just went up a month or so ago.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2009 08:11

the engines are the PS90A turbofans - more thrust, fuel efficiency and reliability compared to the old ones.
note the bigger intake cowl ofcourse.

I believe some Ru civilian airliners use the same engines or another model named PS90B which P&W helped them
get upto spec for western emission and noise stds.

seems to be 4 air inlets for additional cooling airflow - two in the gondolas for the wheels and two above the
wings in the deltoid muscle area.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 26 May 2009 08:20

Niranjan, where are you these days? Lets chat.

Any chance they will update the IL76/78's with these new engines in due course? Maybe useful at Leh, eh?

Added later: Answered my own Q. Looks like the IL76's are mostly on life support: http://airmarshalashokgoel.blogspot.com ... sport.html

Maybe the tankers can be upgraded onlee.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 May 2009 08:55

Singha wrote:the engines are the PS90A turbofans - more thrust, fuel efficiency and reliability compared to the old ones

I had posted a long time back the PS-90 engine upgrade effect on IL-76 performance. I have attached that chart below for comparison:

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 May 2009 09:03

AnantD wrote:During wartime, its going to take more than 6 AWACs to cover all the borders and threats. The Satellite may be the way to bring the Awacs where it needs to be at anytime.

Note that dividing the length of the border by the detection range (and adding sufficient overlap) is not sufficient as a measure for the required airframes. There are other issues involved. For example: not all 6 airframes can be up and flying all the time for days. Despite the presence of aerial refueling (again, the lack of tankers in suitable numbers adds to this problem), the aircraft (and aircrew!) will need to rest and recover (despite carrying perhaps 2+ sets of crews on board). Maintenance will need to be conducted etc.

So if there are 6 aircraft flying, in terms of rotation itself it means that an additional 3+ aircraft are needed to ensure that at least 6 aircraft are up at any given time while others undergo crucial maintenance and checks.

Add to that the issues of attrition etc and you will see a number around ~10 airframes as being required.

The current set of 6 (if that ever materializes in time) will be sufficient to fight a war on one front (Pakistan or China), not both.

-Vivek

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 May 2009 09:44

AnantD wrote:During wartime, its going to take more than 6 AWACs to cover all the borders and threats. The Satellite may be the way to bring the Awacs where it needs to be at anytime.

Few months after this order was placed I had a lengthy discussion with Late Air Chief Marshal S.K. Mehra and asked him if 3 is enough and if not how many AWACS he will considered adequate? Given the situation that time Mehra-saab thought 3 is enough for now.

Some few years later based on a more proactive national outlook it was a wise decision for India to add 3 more to the fleet, that IMHO allows fighting on 2 fronts.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 May 2009 09:47

Probability of availability of atleast three is sure with the number 6. probably EOQ model of babus was 6 for this type of investment.

Added later.

From Retd AM Goel blog (thanks Anant for his link)

We have already placed order for six Hercules C 130J special operations aircraft from the US Lockheed Martin, but that is too small a number for the size of Indian Air Force. Perhaps, we will exercise the option for another six.

so for atleast transport related platforms 6 is EOQ?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 26 May 2009 09:50

Arun sir, In due time the DRDO awacs will also add to the numbers and given their size, airframe characteristics of the 145, numbers etc IMVHO we'll be able to push these to the more "forward operating" areas which will be closer to hostile airspace/areas of operation. JMT

Still doesnt mean we cant order more Phalcons......

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 May 2009 09:57

p_saggu wrote:Jags and Mig 29s 'escorting' the Phalcon in? IAF has done its first AWACS training exercise already! The mig-29's were probably directed to intercept the Jags then the whole package escorted the Phalcon in.

EDITED

George J · Post by **George J** » 26 May 2009 10:20

The Russian A-50 relied on some element of ground based processing and that was one of the reasons given for going with the Phalcon.

Also all AWACS are VERY complex a/c and this brings us back to a very esoteric discussion we have had on BRF many moons ago, there is a fundamental difference in being FLIGHT capable and COMBAT capable.

The former means the a/c are fully flight worthy and the latter means that not only are they flight worthy but the $0.01 vacuum tube which was bought from the Russian mafia for $15,000 cash also makes it combat worthy. Without that 1 cent part you just have multimillion $ a/c that flies but really does not do much of anything else.

While I hope that we will have better luck with spares with IAI, there are still other aspects. There have been separate discussion (donno on BRF or during real BR meet) where we have talked about the MTBF of other contemporary AWACS and if those numbers are any indications then we need a lot more than six Phalcons to maintain combat capability.

Also having an AWACS flying around Agra does not mean diddly squat. The Phalcon MUST have the ability to paint a complete pictures for any user that needs it. I still have no clue about FDL (remember the FDL conversation about the MKI) or what they plan to standardize on across the IAF.

Them boys in Agra will have to do a lot of hands on learning now. They have their work cut out. I just hope all those MTBF numbers don't apply to Phalcons.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 May 2009 10:36

so are we still with Ivans avionics with Vacuum tubes and Nixie tubes

like these

Notice the headline "... Russian subminiature nixie tubes in stock

http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html

looks like British Columbia Canada firm

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 26 May 2009 10:40

Gjman...where r u these days.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 May 2009 13:35

Why Phalcon AWACS matter to India

India took a major step towards establishing strategic dominance in the South Asian region on May 25 when the first of the three Israeli Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems aircraft touched down in Jamnagar, Gujarat....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 May 2009 14:05

shiv wrote:
Jaguar IMs for deterrence from seas?
Data point. No Su 30s.

Yet

Didn't get you there sir. Come again please.

Do you mean to say Su-30s are still grounded since the crash?

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 26 May 2009 15:00

shiv wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Jaguar IMs for deterrence from seas?
Data point. No Su 30s.

Yet

today's ToI report says Su30's started flying and quotes "Su30 undertook a sortie yesterday"..

Was it possible that....

or may be me is tooo day-dreaming...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2009 15:23

Dmurphy wrote: Do you mean to say Su-30s are still grounded since the crash?

Well not "grounded" - but I bet every one of our Su 30s is being examined with a microscope. OT.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2009 21:32

amir-e-khan tried to make a combo jstars+sentry as a M2CA a/c and did get a prototype flying with test racks of eqpt. but I think it was cancelled due to severe systems integration complexity and low "system mtbf". in future there will prolly be MESA and JSTARS separately on 787 or 777-200LR airframes.

we probably need around 12 of these birds to guarantee some redundancy and 24x7 full court coverage against a wide swathe of threats from andaman to the persian gulf.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 May 2009 23:07

but I think it was cancelled due to severe systems integration complexity and low "system mtbf"

Read somewhere - looooong back - that it was about too many cooks - interference. What 10% said was attributed to Mush and what Mush said to Clinton ...................

You are going back some 8-10 years?

I think the US will subscribe to the Israeli birds. Specially the coast guard and the likes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2009 06:45

you mean the Eitan and G550 ? - definitely cheaper than Ghawk and E3....and should be cheaper opex than the old P3-AEW the border patrol has been given.
the G550 could with permission even undertake offensive sweeps over latin america to catch the small drug ferry planes near their takeoff points and keep ANG F-16s cued.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2009 07:37

That was my thinking. I very vaguely recall an article in AWST that I thought put that idea forward.

I no longer have access to AWST, but googling seems to indicate that the US is heavily inclined to go the UAV route - in everything!! So scratch that thought please.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2009 08:39

India needs the israeli jstars type soln too. esp in himalayan ladakh, sikkim and tawang front could be a force multiplier and control disparate forces widely separated in time and distance.

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 27 May 2009 13:18

Article providing good summary about Indian AWACS quest.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Ind ... #more-4855

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 28 May 2009 12:13

IAF may replace AWACS with 'modern aircraft' in future

India may have created history by inducting its first Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) here today but the IAF is planning to replace the Russian IL-76 aircraft with some other "modern aircraft" as the platform for the system in future.

India is the first country in South Asia to own an AWACS, popularly called 'an eye in the sky'.

"The first three AWACS will be based on the Russian IL-76s but they are older aircraft and they will be replaced with modern aircraft, which have same endurance as the IL-76," an IAF source said.

Officials, however, said the process to look out for new platforms for AWACS will begin only after the remaining two systems are inducted in the IAF. The second of the AWACS is expected to be in India by early 2010 and the last one by the end of next year.

The aircraft being looked as a replacement for the IL-76 include Embraer and Gulfstream 550, which can carry out flying missions of over nine hours at a stretch.

On operations by AWACS, the source said, "all the equipment for the system to work will take another two to three months to arrive. So, it will take three months before they start operational flying."

The aircraft will be deployed in Agra with IAF's 50 Squadron under Allahabad-based Central Air Command but will be assigned tasks directly by the Air Headquarters.

Link

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 28 May 2009 12:15

In quest for supremacy, IAF inducts AWACS

New Delhi, May 28 - ANI: The Indian Air Forces eye in the sky, AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platform fitted on IL-76 aircraft, was formally inducted by Defence Minister A K Antony today.

The IAF has raised a new squadron of AWACS, which will be called Squadron 50. Two more AWACS will be inducted in the squadron by the end of the next year.

The planes will especially be used to reinforce maritime security in the wake of 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks. India is one of the few countries to have inducted the AWACS in their air forces.

Antony described the induction of AWACS as a milestone, and added that it would help to improve the countrys security apparatus.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major said: AWACS will enable the Air Force to project itself as a formidable force. Integration of this sophisticated platform with our Air Defence Network will add a new dimension to the IAFs capability to guard the Indian skies.

AWACS will be a dynamic asset in the air, which can be mobilised in a quick time to counter an emerging threat and tilt the balance in Indias favour. It will provide defence in depth and enable the friendly forces to neutralise the adversary before it can pose a serious danger, he added.

The first of three Indian Air Force AWACS arrived in Jamnagar, Gujarat on May 25. It took off from Israels Ben-Gurion Airport on Sunday, first for Ovda in the southern Israeli coastal town of Eilat. At night, it flew from Eilat to Jamnagar, reaching India on Monday.

The Israeli-built system is mounted on a Russian-built IL-76 transport aircraft as a part of the tripartite agreement between India, Israel and Russia.

The AWACS are slated to operate from the Agra airbase under the Central Air Command. Indias most potent force multiplier, AWACS, is capable of tracking down incoming missiles. The all weather system is capable of engaging 60 targets simultaneously and has a range of 400 km.

It has a radar that can help detect cruise missiles or aircrafts at ranges much beyond the capabilities of present systems. It can also collate information about troop movements and missile launches on ground and even intercept highly secured communication networks of the enemy.

The IAF AWACS would help pilots find hitherto unconceivable space and room for tactical manoeuvres in the air under controlled directions that would give them an edge over their adversaries at all times.

AWACS, a potent force-multiplier, would significantly enhance the effectiveness of both offensive and defensive operations. The swift mobility that it provides would help neutralise any threat, as it could be moved anywhere at a very short notice. - ANI

Link

Its time to rejoice..!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2009 12:34

Look no further than the A330. large capacious airframe, cargo deck for rack upon endless rack of lethal EW equipment, beautiful passenger area for console, executive type rest areas, restrooms, galleys etc. huge range, latest engines, MRO in Yindia.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 28 May 2009 15:55

Guiding Pilots for the kill – IAF’s Fighter Controllers

Never has the cliché - man behind the machine, in aviation banter, been as significant and diverse as it is today. With the advent of the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) in aerial-battle management scenarios, this aspect has undergone a paradigm shift with the incorporation of the hitherto unseen catalyst – Fighter Controllers (FC), manning work stations on board the AWACS.

The fighter pilots of the yore were often deemed ‘flying aces’ depending upon the number of enemy aircraft that they downed single-handedly or at best, in pairs in the ‘dog-fights’ that ensued. The manifestation of modern day air combats with multitudes of fighter aircraft in an era of ‘beyond-visual range’ (BVR) missiles today are a scenario, far removed from that.

Comprehensive situational awareness is the buzzword for survivability for any modern-day fighter pilot. To achieve that it is mandatory to match the inputs from the AWACS and ground radars to help make the entire airspace transparent. It is here that the fighter controller’s role assumes significance as they play a decisive role in the outcome of aerial battles.

Integration of fighter controllers actively into IAF operations goes back in history where they played a significant role in all our wars. With the advent of all-aspect IR missiles and BVRs in the mid-80s, the pilot-controller synergy reached a new level. Together they became a lethal team and the IAF began conducting joint courses for them since 1989 at TACDE (Tactics and Combat Development Establishment) where Fighter Combat Leaders (FCL), Fighter Strike Leaders (FSL) and Master Fighter Controllers (MFC) are trained alongside. This lethal team has now got a lot meaner with the FC now being available inside the airborne platform.

The IAF started training its FCs for AWACS operations as early as August 2005 during ‘Cope India’ exercise with US Air Force. In other bilateral international exercises of ‘Indradhanush’ and ‘Garuda’, with Royal Air Force and French Air Force in succeeding years, IAF fighter controllers matched skills with their more experienced counterparts adapting to the new environment with panache. At the multilateral international air exercise of Red Flag at Nellis USAF base in 2003 and 2008, IAF pilots and FCs made their presence count in every encounter.

A batch of IAF FCs underwent training in Israel to operate the latest AWACS that is being inducted today. Other controllers to follow will be trained at the Air Defence College, Lucknow - the country’s only centre imparting advance training to fighter controllers of the Air Force. With a preeminent role to guide the fighter pilots for a kill, the job of IAF’s fighter controller now is set to transcend from the realm of ‘control of interceptors and air surveillance’ to that of management of the entire ‘Air Battle’ as a whole.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 May 2009 16:22

RIA Novosti:First Russian AWACS plane put in service with Indian air force

India dropped Russia from a $1-bln tender to supply six aerial tankers for the Indian Air Force due to poor after-sales maintenance services and is most likely to look for another manufacturer for future AWACS orders to satisfy its needs for early warning aircraft.

Just as I had expected. My bet's on the Israeli Gulfstream CAEWS 'Eitam'

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 May 2009 16:24

Yes, the follow order for addl 3 phalcons might not have the russian plane

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 28 May 2009 16:50

Dmurphy wrote:RIA Novosti:First Russian AWACS plane put in service with Indian air force
India dropped Russia from a $1-bln tender to supply six aerial tankers for the Indian Air Force due to poor after-sales maintenance services and is most likely to look for another manufacturer for future AWACS orders to satisfy its needs for early warning aircraft.
Just as I had expected. My bet's on the Israeli Gulfstream CAEWS 'Eitam'

Yes, but Gulfstream is very costly and of American origin. IAF should look at non-American options like Bombardier Global 5000 or Dassault Falcon 7X. Falcon 7X will not fit in because of engine on vertical stabilizer and the radar would disrupt airflow.

G550 costs around 70 million USD while Global 5000, which has similar capabilities and costs around 50 million USD. Although 5000 has never been converted into AWACS, the Israelis will have enough experience with the G550s to make that happen.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 28 May 2009 16:54

well, Is IAF trying to say that delay that was incurred to get the AWACS was mainly due to Russian plane

else why not IL-78 IAF is operating this airplane drom ages now and wouldn't be too demanding to maintain airborne radar on two different airframes

I mean two different training modules. two different logistic support etc etc

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 May 2009 16:59

Well somewhere they had to do it. Why not now, how long are we going to keep buying them saying that it increases logistic nightmare

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 May 2009 17:37

It took quite some effort to have the G550s modified too.

IF time is a criteria, then the G550 should be a decent option. IF cost is a criteria then the field should be open.

Singapore has a couple/three of the G550s - completed in rather fast time.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 28 May 2009 17:38

Choosing a new platform for the AWACS will mean more delays in getting them, similar to one we faced in getting the first aircraft in, not to mention the cost of systems integration and testing, which will have to be born entirely by the user (Which is India). Add to that adding to India's inventory 3 totally new aircrafts with parallel inventories and Maintenance facilities and trained man power! That would need parallel infrastructure and man power for similar systems in a single squadron. Quite a waste of exchequer I believe, that too for just three aircrafts, it would do well for the IAF to go for the remaining three with similar airframe to ensure system commonality and better use of resources.

It was understandable in case of 6 tankers but doing the same with just 3 aircrafts is futile I believe!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 May 2009 18:37

Anantz wrote:It was understandable in case of 6 tankers but doing the same with just 3 aircrafts is futile I believe!

Infact Anantz, as the saying goes, a stitch in time saves nine. We cannot stay hooked on to some obsolete, fuel guzzling plane just for the fear of logistical nightmares. We have enough time, money and the resources to develop the manpower for the newer planes. Lets also look at it this way, the Chinese, sooner or later will be completely independent of the Russians much before we do. Its only us that they will fall back on. In short, as India's choices are getting wider with each passing day, theirs are shrinking. The Russians have to be sent a clear message right now! They cannot be F***ing with us anymore. And who knows, as some opinions go, we might even go for more numbers in future to fulfill our needs and not stop at just 3 systems.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 28 May 2009 19:48

vivek_ahuja wrote:
AnantD wrote:During wartime, its going to take more than 6 AWACs to cover all the borders and threats. The Satellite may be the way to bring the Awacs where it needs to be at anytime.
Note that dividing the length of the border by the detection range (and adding sufficient overlap) is not sufficient as a measure for the required airframes. There are other issues involved. For example: not all 6 airframes can be up and flying all the time for days. Despite the presence of aerial refueling (again, the lack of tankers in suitable numbers adds to this problem), the aircraft (and aircrew!) will need to rest and recover (despite carrying perhaps 2+ sets of crews on board). Maintenance will need to be conducted etc.

So if there are 6 aircraft flying, in terms of rotation itself it means that an additional 3+ aircraft are needed to ensure that at least 6 aircraft are up at any given time while others undergo crucial maintenance and checks.

Add to that the issues of attrition etc and you will see a number around ~10 airframes as being required.

The current set of 6 (if that ever materializes in time) will be sufficient to fight a war on one front (Pakistan or China), not both.

-Vivek

At any war ,if my calculatins are correct we need at least 30 AWACS acs or 40 acs to be sufficient, assuming threat emerging only from 15000 km long borders and/or maritime recon acs solve their purpose of detecting any sea based threat, and the available AWACS are good enough.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 28 May 2009 20:07

These guys are really a big headache man.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pak- ... 589871.cms

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 28 May 2009 20:25

Samay wrote:At any war ,if my calculatins are correct we need at least 30 AWACS acs or 40 acs to be sufficient, assuming threat emerging only from 15000 km long borders and/or maritime recon acs solve their purpose of detecting any sea based threat, and the available AWACS are good enough.

The whole frikkin USAF has 34 AWACS for its global role and you come up with 30-40 awacs just for india?