Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Dec 2010 22:52

16 more NBC Recce Vehicles have been ordered

Recce Vehicle interior

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 27 Dec 2010 12:09

Autonomous "Raider" Combat Vehicle Takes Design Cues from the Batmobile

And yes, this robo-tank is indeed inspired by Christopher Nolan's version of the venerable Batmobile. Said BAE design project leader Hisham Awad:

"Well, why not? In all seriousness, we decided that we didn't have a monopoly on inspiration, and if we saw something in a film that we thought might be a good idea, why not take a look at it and see if there's something practical we can develop. You see, it turns like a motorbike and it has the same wheel configuration."

All joking aside, it is an interesting concept. If you can have UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehice), how about the UGA (Unmanned Ground Armor).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Dec 2010 12:36

it would work only if it is satellite engaged with real men with the throttle sitting in the base camp. I think it is better to have man machine advanced setup with all the complex communication and logistics so that risk taking is easier and need not depend on command complexity for doing some human work. Too much software is needed. Perhaps it can be built slowly piece by piece.

Especially when the communication is snapped, only human can make it happen.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Dec 2010 13:09

Rahul M wrote:company quarter master havildar abdul hamid.

For those who don't know his story:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... Hamid.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2010 18:52

I am getting a strong spider feel the NBC vehicles are due to an expectation that PLA will go batnuts if their initial surging attacks are blunted and resort to use of chemical weapons in a localized way to break through some choke points. the NBC recce vehicles while they cannot contribute to the fortunes of war might be distributed into likely contested hotspots to lie low and report with 100% accuracy back to GHQ Delhi about the situation so that PMO can authorize a likewise retaliation...and use of chemical weapons will need PMs signoff for sure , its not to be taken lightly and there is a need to avoid false positives at all costs.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 27 Dec 2010 20:57

Why chemical saar ? Do India and China still have those ?
These vehicles could very well be for Nuclear issues.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2010 21:39

yeah yeah there's the threat of pakis resorting to tactical nuclear weapons on a indian armour thrust, but I see the chances of that (indian attack into pak) as extremely low.
and if a JDAM takes out a indian city, we would hardly need a NBC sniffing hound dog to know what happened - and send the next dossier to rawalpindi

officially I think most if not all chemical weapons are outlawed and pigs can fly wings if ALL of the P5 and a bunch of creative types like Noko, Pak, Israel, Iran , Soko, Japan are not stockpiling a cache just in case...basically anyone who expects to fight a real war and has the means to produce this nasty stuff.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Dec 2010 01:55

Singha wrote:I am getting a strong spider feel the NBC vehicles are due to an expectation that PLA will go batnuts if their initial surging attacks are blunted and resort to use of chemical weapons in a localized way to break through some choke points. the NBC recce vehicles while they cannot contribute to the fortunes of war might be distributed into likely contested hotspots to lie low and report with 100% accuracy back to GHQ Delhi about the situation so that PMO can authorize a likewise retaliation...and use of chemical weapons will need PMs signoff for sure , its not to be taken lightly and there is a need to avoid false positives at all costs.

Singha: A chemical attack will trigger the Indian MCD. PRC will be asking for an escalation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 09:42

escalating and then daring the foe to respond likewise has been a long and successful chinese tactic - eg nuclear and missile proliferation about which the rest of P4 could manage to do nothing.

we cannot depend on them being 'rational'. being irrational in a calculated sense is also a tactic of war to disrupt and negate all rational plans.

hence we better have a plan and procedure all written up and ready to deal with a chemical attack on kargil , manali and leh to shut down our supply chain for some time while PLA makes merry up north.

warnings and dossiers will only invite ridicule or more such 'unlawful' attacks - something very drastic like massive submarine & missile attack on the pearl river delta seaports (sink 20 heavy container ships and pound some shore facilities before withdrawing) will be needed if our response is to remain conventional.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Dec 2010 19:01

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showth ... 55&page=17

P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE,

Sivakumar: The production of the 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks will be completed at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, by March 2011. For the production of the 124 Mark-II tanks, the HVF has been instructed to start the procurement of components. The process has already started. The 90 tanks produced so far are available with the 43rd and 75th Armoured Regiments. A programme called Exercise with Troops, using these tanks, got under way from November 22 at Jaisalmer [Rajasthan]. The Army will see how effectively they can use these tanks in the exercise. We are hoping that the performance of Arjun will yield more orders.

Saraswat: In terms of its performance, Arjun is one of the best tanks today. In terms of firepower, accuracy, mobility and the protection system we have provided, it matches the best in the world. But the threat profile is changing. An ammunition may be developed which can be stronger and can penetrate a thicker armour. So our effort now is to work on the next generation of Arjun tanks, which can survive offence and defence against futuristic threats in terms of penetration, fire-power, firing a missile, and so on. Today, we have a gun mounted on the Arjun. Tomorrow, we may have a missile mounted on it. Today, we have a passive protection system. Tomorrow, we will have an active protection system. Today, it has so much of speed. Tomorrow, it may be more mobile. My team in the CVRDE will be developing the Future MBT with a host of new technologies. That is our ambition.

Sivakumar: We will certainly keep doing product improvement in the present systems.

Saraswat: Today, we have Arjun Mark-I. Tomorrow, we will have Arjun Mark-II, which will be more capable. Then we will have Future Arjun, which will be contemporary to the 2015 to 2025 period. Is it Arjun Mark-3 before FMBT?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Dec 2010 22:13

^^^ Arjun will have more orders. I have said this before, even when the second order was placed.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Dec 2010 00:42

vic wrote:http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showth ... 55&page=17

P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE,

Sivakumar: The production of the 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks will be completed at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, by March 2011. For the production of the 124 Mark-II tanks, the HVF has been instructed to start the procurement of components. The process has already started. The 90 tanks produced so far are available with the 43rd and 75th Armoured Regiments. A programme called Exercise with Troops, using these tanks, got under way from November 22 at Jaisalmer [Rajasthan]. The Army will see how effectively they can use these tanks in the exercise. We are hoping that the performance of Arjun will yield more orders.

Saraswat: In terms of its performance, Arjun is one of the best tanks today. In terms of firepower, accuracy, mobility and the protection system we have provided, it matches the best in the world. But the threat profile is changing. An ammunition may be developed which can be stronger and can penetrate a thicker armour. So our effort now is to work on the next generation of Arjun tanks, which can survive offence and defence against futuristic threats in terms of penetration, fire-power, firing a missile, and so on. Today, we have a gun mounted on the Arjun. Tomorrow, we may have a missile mounted on it. Today, we have a passive protection system. Tomorrow, we will have an active protection system. Today, it has so much of speed. Tomorrow, it may be more mobile. My team in the CVRDE will be developing the Future MBT with a host of new technologies. That is our ambition.

Sivakumar: We will certainly keep doing product improvement in the present systems.

Saraswat: Today, we have Arjun Mark-I. Tomorrow, we will have Arjun Mark-II, which will be more capable. Then we will have Future Arjun, which will be contemporary to the 2015 to 2025 period. Is it Arjun Mark-3 before FMBT?

To me, it sounds like Arjun MBT will be evolving into the FMBT:

Arjun Mk.1 (2009) -> baseline
Arjun Mk.2 (2012) -> incremental improvements, such as BMS, accuracy, automation, LAHAT, etc
Arjun Mk.3 (2015) -> Future Arjun (Next-Gen Arjun) w/ active protection, missile system, better mobility
Arjun Mk.4 (2020) -> FMBT (even though it may not resemble the Arjun of today ... a lot of subsystems and design evolution will be directly inherited from the Arjun Mk.1/2/3)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Dec 2010 09:46

^^^Just get the damn tanks....waiting to see an Arjun Armored Brigade up and running!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Dec 2010 10:02

chackojoseph wrote:^^^ Arjun will have more orders. I have said this before, even when the second order was placed.

I hope ana prey that you are correct in your assessment. However one is not optimistic when one contrasts it with the enthusiasm of the army between the T 90 and the Arjun.

The fear will remain the the Arjun will be capped at 248 units.

We need to have a commitment from the Army that at least 1000 units will be picked up before the FMBT enters service.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2010 10:08

I would more realistically expect another lot of 124 for a total of 124*3 = 372 - this equates to the tank holding of the 'major' eu militaries like france , germany, uk who likely have only a couple of armour divs each.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 30 Dec 2010 10:41

Pratyush wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:^^^ Arjun will have more orders. I have said this before, even when the second order was placed.
I hope ana prey that you are correct in your assessment. However one is not optimistic when one contrasts it with the enthusiasm of the army between the T 90 and the Arjun.

The fear will remain the the Arjun will be capped at 248 units.

The Arjun MkI run will comprise of 248 units and not likely any more.

The order for the additional MkI and the sanctioning of the Mk2 happened almost simultaneously, and a just a short while after the competitive trials. Everything seems to suggest the IA has accepted the fact that the Arjun is, and if supported, will continue to be the top dog in the region.

A minimum order for 124 Mk2s is almost a given. And if it goes up to 248, that it will for the spearhead of the armored corps is also a given.

We need to have a commitment from the Army that at least 1000 units will be picked up before the FMBT enters service.

If they actually intend to develop a next generation tank with the EM main gun, fuel cell power-pack and whatnot (instead of an conceptual iteration of the T-90), it'll be long long time before we get to ogle at it.

And lets not forget, it IS the CVRDE which has been tasked with developing the FMBT. There not going to shoot themselves in the foot by abandoning the Arjun to pursue a ~~pipe-dream~~ solitary project. My opinion is the FMBT will over the short-medium term end up as a technology feeder program for newer Arjun variants/upgrades.

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Dec 2010 04:44

srai wrote:
vic wrote:http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showth ... 55&page=17

P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE,

Sivakumar: The production of the 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks will be completed at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, by March 2011. For the production of the 124 Mark-II tanks, the HVF has been instructed to start the procurement of components. The process has already started. The 90 tanks produced so far are available with the 43rd and 75th Armoured Regiments. A programme called Exercise with Troops, using these tanks, got under way from November 22 at Jaisalmer [Rajasthan]. The Army will see how effectively they can use these tanks in the exercise. We are hoping that the performance of Arjun will yield more orders.

Saraswat: In terms of its performance, Arjun is one of the best tanks today. In terms of firepower, accuracy, mobility and the protection system we have provided, it matches the best in the world. But the threat profile is changing. An ammunition may be developed which can be stronger and can penetrate a thicker armour. So our effort now is to work on the next generation of Arjun tanks, which can survive offence and defence against futuristic threats in terms of penetration, fire-power, firing a missile, and so on. Today, we have a gun mounted on the Arjun. Tomorrow, we may have a missile mounted on it. Today, we have a passive protection system. Tomorrow, we will have an active protection system. Today, it has so much of speed. Tomorrow, it may be more mobile. My team in the CVRDE will be developing the Future MBT with a host of new technologies. That is our ambition.

Sivakumar: We will certainly keep doing product improvement in the present systems.

Saraswat: Today, we have Arjun Mark-I. Tomorrow, we will have Arjun Mark-II, which will be more capable. Then we will have Future Arjun, which will be contemporary to the 2015 to 2025 period. Is it Arjun Mark-3 before FMBT?
To me, it sounds like Arjun MBT will be evolving into the FMBT:

Arjun Mk.1 (2009) -> baseline

Arjun Mk.2 (2012) -> incremental improvements, such as BMS, accuracy, automation, LAHAT, etc

Arjun Mk.3 (2015) -> Future Arjun (Next-Gen Arjun) w/ active protection, missile system, better mobility

Arjun Mk.4 (2020) -> FMBT (even though it may not resemble the Arjun of today ... a lot of subsystems and design evolution will be directly inherited from the Arjun Mk.1/2/3)

Since the question has been raised on how many Arjun MBTs will eventually be produced, here is my calculations:

Given,
124 x block units of Arjun orders by IA
50 x Arjun MBT produced/capacity at CVRDE per year (2.5 years to complete a 124 block units of IA orders)
3 years minimum for R&D for a new variant i.e. Mk.2, Mk.3

(2008-2013) -> 248 Arjun Mk.1
(2014-2016) ----------------------->124 Arjun Mk.2
(2017-2019) -------------------------------------------> 124 Arjun Mk.3

Total: 248 + 124 + 124 = 496 Arjun Mk.1/2/3 MBTs (8 Regiments or 12% of IA's 65 Regiments MBT fleet))

If IA decides to order in larger block units (248 instead of 124) and CVRDE increases production to match that (100 units/year) to still deliver within 2.5 years for Mk.2/3 variants, then this is what will be:

Given,
248 x block units of Arjun orders by IA (for Mk.2/3)
100 x Arjun MBT produced/capacity at CVRDE per year (2.5 years to complete a 248 block units of IA orders)
3 years minimum for R&D for a new variant i.e. Mk.2, Mk.3

(2008-2013) -> 248 Arjun Mk.1
(2014-2016) ----------------------->248 Arjun Mk.2
(2017-2019) -------------------------------------------> 248 Arjun Mk.3

Total: 248 + 248 + 248 = 744 Arjun Mk.1/2/3 MBTs (12 Regiments or 18.5% of IA's 65 Regiments MBT fleet)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2010 14:25

srai,

Your assessment is correct. I am estimating 500 -1000 units.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Dec 2010 14:34

Srai,

In the same period twice as many T 90s will have entered service unless the army changes its attitude. We will keep on chasing the next tank as the one which will bring about the indiginisation as far as armour is concerned.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 31 Dec 2010 16:50

Srai,

for once

I agree with you ... actually so does DRDO and surprise surprise Global security ... well almost.

DRDO has said plenty of times that they need an order of at least 500 tanks to recover their investment in the Arjun project.

Global security has been constantly projecting 600+ Arjuns in the Indian Army's equipment holdings by 2020.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Dec 2010 16:57

In the same period how many T 90 will be a part of the Armys tank inventory? The plans call for 1800 + T 90s. Before the FMBT enters service.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2010 17:47

given the rate at which avadi HVF turns out T-series we can be sure it will be much lower than 1800.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2011 12:07

Seems to be the new T-90M ( via mp.net )

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Jan 2011 13:45

^^ @Austin. Yes thats supposedly the new T-90M but as usual the crappy picture doesnt tell us much.. However The Other Vehicle in the picture ( its cut out in the one you posted..!) is of the BMP-T Prototype.

The BMP-T is better armoured than the T-90 has 4 ATGM launchers, Twin 30mm Gun, Twin AGS-17 Grenade Launchers and a 7.62x54 Gun all on an unmanned Turret. Looks like one hell of a beast

Here is the whole picture..
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5163 ... 622cf6.jpg

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 06 Jan 2011 15:46

I visited the Indian Science Congress exhibition yesterday and got a chance to talk to a senior official(dont want to mention his name here) from CVRDE-DRDO about Arjun tank.

1. I asked him about T-90 vs Arjun and he said T-90 cannot be even classified as a MBT. So no comparison.
2. ERA, 1500 hp engine, Battlefield Management System etc are planned/developed for Arjun mk2.
3. One DRDO lab is working on 155 mm gun for BHIM.
4. No comments on counter ATGM measures being developed.
5. One complaint was the private sector defence industry is not growing as expected to support DRDO in various development activities.

Another interesting thing was a new commanders sight that was being tested with Arjun there. It was early morning and the equipemnt was taken away before the visitors started coming. Some one told me that its from belgium and I saw 2 foreigners working with DRDO official in attaching and checking few things with the sight. I asked permission to take a photo of the new commanders sight but they refused

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 18:36

so the BMP2-T is like a light tank than a troop carrier right? interesting idea...though I think a single 30mm cannon is enough. this puppy could take a real toll vs any infantry or ICV

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 18:39

belgium can mean (thales optronics)

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Jan 2011 19:31

rajeshks wrote: 5. One complaint was the private sector defence industry is not growing as expected to support DRDO in various development activities.

Privatization of the Indian defense industry, needs to be taken up by the PMO on a war footing. Start with production PSU privatization, form a comprehensive set of policies, where private industry has clear incentives, including a commitment to buy and promote local industry and they will jump in. The real issue is not about the 26% limit on FDI. We want Indian owned and managed companies to spring up in this area. I do not know this in detail, and sorely miss JCage in this area but are there clear production units for say the 51 odd labs in DRDO?

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jan 2011 21:05

3. One DRDO lab is working on 155 mm gun for BHIM.

Praying that this succeeds and IA sees some much needed SP artillery...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jan 2011 23:24

rajeshks wrote:
Another interesting thing was a new commanders sight that was being tested with Arjun there. It was early morning and the equipemnt was taken away before the visitors started coming. Some one told me that its from belgium and I saw 2 foreigners working with DRDO official in attaching and checking few things with the sight. I asked permission to take a photo of the new commanders sight but they refused

They must be adding a Commander's Independent Thermal sight to the Mk2 version. Good.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Jan 2011 02:46

Looks like Arjun project is slowly meturing with new items etc under development all the time and bhim 155mm is a welcome things. I think now is the time for the defence ministry to give a firm commintment to induct say some 1200 arjuns of varios marks are they come in in next 10 years and press for the development of new and better marks. They can give specific items like auto loader, local engine etc for development in a time bound manner.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 07 Jan 2011 08:49

If it's the Catherine stuff it got problems.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... efence.asp
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-2081
Any improvements made and the problem corrected? Any info?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 07 Jan 2011 09:18

Singha wrote:belgium can mean (thales optronics)

uddu wrote:If it's the Catherine stuff it got problems.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... efence.asp
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-2081
Any improvements made and the problem corrected? Any info?

There are a number of Thales Optronics units (wiki uncle lists three of them). The one with Belgian roots has to be Thales Optronics B.V. which was called Delft Sensor Systems before Thales bought them. These guys do make tank sights, I could find this old article on Jane'shttp://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Arm ... lgium.html. So, the TI sight being tested could very well not be Catherine.

nachiket wrote:
They must be adding a Commander's Independent Thermal sight to the Mk2 version. Good.

Would it not be possible to retrofit this new sight on the Mk1 also ?

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 07 Jan 2011 12:31

It was not boxy but cylindrical. it looked more like a airborne sensor (but upside down)..
The DRDO official didnt mention its model or country.. he simply said it provides Day/Night vision plus laser range finder.. country name I got from someone nearby so it may be wrong..

i was wondering why they were checking it in a exhibition ground in early morning.. the foreigners looked more like sales person(?) and was staying in a big hotel(found from the car/driver).. they placed the equipment in the right door in the turret and was taking photos and measurements..

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 07 Jan 2011 12:36

sum wrote:Praying that this succeeds and IA sees some much needed SP artillery...

DRDO lab in Pune is working on the 155 mm gun for BHIM. They had a model of BHIM for display. I will upload photos.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Jan 2011 12:47

rajeshks wrote:It was not boxy but cylindrical. it looked more like a airborne sensor (but upside down)..
The DRDO official didnt mention its model or country.. he simply said it provides Day/Night vision plus laser range finder.. country name I got from someone nearby so it may be wrong..

i was wondering why they were checking it in a exhibition ground in early morning.. the foreigners looked more like sales person(?) and was staying in a big hotel(found from the car/driver).. they placed the equipment in the right door in the turret and was taking photos and measurements..

You'll probably make a good spy

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 07 Jan 2011 13:19

rajeshks wrote:It was not boxy but cylindrical. it looked more like a airborne sensor (but upside down)..
The DRDO official didnt mention its model or country.. he simply said it provides Day/Night vision plus laser range finder.. country name I got from someone nearby so it may be wrong..

i was wondering why they were checking it in a exhibition ground in early morning.. the foreigners looked more like sales person(?) and was staying in a big hotel(found from the car/driver).. they placed the equipment in the right door in the turret and was taking photos and measurements..

I don't think they can test a thermal sight so easily without integrating it in the tanks electronics suit.

may be he was checking how to disable the tank's electronics and the officer was sold out, how can the officer at exhibition allow outside people to attach external devices to the tank then?

Testing something at exhibition does not make any sense at all.

One case may be the person was carrying his camera/case for making a documentary/film :p

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 07 Jan 2011 14:12

nothing sensational about their testing.. Only thing important in what I said was, there was a new commanders sight..

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 10 Jan 2011 09:25

Stealth tanks could be on battlefield within five yrs.
http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 9&catid=37

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jan 2011 13:35

Delighted to see in the "F" mag that my suggestions are exactly along the IA's lines regarding "light tanks" in the high-alt/mountains,deserts/swampy terrain,etc.The IA apparently wants 200 wheeled light tanks and 100 tracked tanks of between 16-28t,which can be easilty transported to high-alt areas like "Ladakh and the N-East by road or air",and has put out an RFI to 4 western manufacturers (Centauro 8X8/120mm smoothbore cannon,Panndur 8X8 with 105mm canon,Gen-Dynam 1128 Stryker with a 105mm cannon,BAe CV90-120mm canon).They are being looked at with "utmost seriousness"!

More details on the IAs armour force strength to have approx 2500 "higher-end" MBTs,including 1400+ T-90s,248 Arjuns,690+ "Combat Improved" T-72M1 Ajeyas.L&T and Tatas are also proposing to upgrade another 1000T-72M1s with Raytheon and Canada's CAE respectively.The home built T-90Ms will be upgraded superior to the tT-90Ss,with better ERA,armour,cooling for thernmal sights,etc.,and the Rapira smoothbore main gun,REfelks anti armour/helo missile,blah,blah.The later T-90s/Arjun MK-2s will also feature Saab's LEDS-150 active protection system.From these reports it appears that the armoured corps of the IA will be in excellent shape once all the decisions taken are executed and smooth production of T-90s,Arjuns and T-72 upgrades take place.