China Military Watch

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2010 20:51

chinese tech is definitely better - their firecrackers emit more fire, kill people (all worthy heroes in the 'long' march to progress) and seem to deviate even before the tail clears the launch tower itself

very brahmosish, from before brahmos was born...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Dec 2010 21:16

The best part of that Long March is that Chinese Government, in their infinite wisdom (and they should have a ton), claimed that the rocket went off course due to a gust of wind!!!!!!

Their fireworks (the real kind) can withstand gusts, but a rocket bound for space cannot!!!

They lie about such incidents, I would not be surprised if they have done the same with their accounts too.

added l8r:

A gust of wind also made those pictures of their 5th gen (or is it 6th Gen by Chicom standards?) blurry too.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Dec 2010 22:06

The troll from Rensselaer Polytechnic has been banned

Saurabh_M · Post by **Saurabh_M** » 27 Dec 2010 22:28

Lora Hirschberg wrote:
Arunkumar wrote: at the same time, when the disaster happen, what indians doing? hope the Arjun tank becoming a real one?

Where have you been sleeping for last few years
Isn't Type 96 the standard tank of your army?
Type 96 < T-90S and T-90S has been outperformed by Arjun. lol . . . go back to sleep.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Dec 2010 22:45

Some pictures of "J-10" floating around

pics1
pics2
pics3
pics4

IF the claims of this is the Chinese FGFA then some interpretation from the mock up/TD

1 ) J-20 is fairly large aircraft ( HFA ), looks more chubier/fatter to me , which would mean it would carry large internal fuel loads and/or internal/external weapons giving it fairly long range/persistance , looks more to me like a long range high mach number strike aircraft then a agile air superiority fighter.
2) The planform right now is not fully stealth optimised the canard is one certainly will give away but this could be work in progress ,could be at a later stage they may do away with movable canard or they may just retain it for agility/slow speed handling as they understand the canard design well via J-10.
3 ) Engine will be the reliable AL-31 or what ever powers the MKK at the minimum , either way they need a reliable and proven engine for prototypes to verify the aerodynamics.
4 ) This could be the first aircraft the chinese would have designed on their own ( J-10 had Lavi/Israel inputs ) , they would have at best depended on their espionage gains (US and others ) over decades , but certainly no direct Israel , Western or Russian inputs to design.
5 ) If this design indeed flies then we need to see how well it comes up during flight testing , most of J-10 flight testing program was well hidden with couple of prototypes lost during flight test.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Dec 2010 23:09

Guys this was a perfectly functional thread. Please don't derail it for some trolls. Tech specs and capabilities/possibilities discussions with the likes of DavidD was interesting. But please don't reply to firecrackers with firecrackers.

If a troll comes in and makes fun of the 25th Dec failure, it only shows his maturity level. In retaliation, we shouldn't stoop to the level of making fun of a space disaster where hundreds of human lives were lost. Just as Gerard did ban the troll, please don't feed him.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 Dec 2010 23:26

In the spirit of moving forward. Lately, have heard a lot of noise on this Chinese anti ship ballistic missile thingie, that has the western "experts" blabbering all over the place. A few questions.

1. Does not a ballistic missile tend to have a high CEP, what is the CEP for this missile to accurately target a moving ship?

2. What type of radar will they be using to be able to detect a ship and what will be its range, tracking and targeting range?

3. Will this missile not need some type of satellite guidance to course correct? is that done through some other mechanism?

4. It seems China is the only one trying for this ASBM stuff, why?

5. Presume this to be land based version only?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Dec 2010 23:42

ShauryaT,
There has already been a very good discussion on Chinese ASBM which answers all your above questions. So, you would find it interesting to go through them.

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 28 Dec 2010 00:23

Singha wrote:chinese tech is definitely better - their firecrackers emit more fire, kill people (all worthy heroes in the 'long' march to progress) and seem to deviate even before the tail clears the launch tower itself very brahmosish, from before brahmos was born...

This is too hilarious..LOL..LOL [One beer party on me]
couldn't resist!!!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Dec 2010 01:01

Gaur: I did a quick search on ASBM on the thread and went through the posts, not sure if the questions are still answered though. It is a lot of unknowns, at least the way I read them. I look at this DF-21 derivation as part of a system, with radar and satellite/alternate guidance means to become a weapon. So, while the DF-21 itself is well understood, the support systems are still a little unclear, at least to me.

An understanding of these aerospace and other tracking and targeting capabilities will give us an understanding of how far can China take its entire PGM and missiles.

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 08:18

In this photo you can not see any planes.

During the past one week, rumors of Chinese new generation fighter under taxi tests have been widespread through the nation's internet world. Military fan boys (occasionally accompanied by their girlfriends) are gathering outside the walls of the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, which is supposed to be the vendor.

Cameras are forbidden, though.

Citizens of Chengdu are witnessing a new generation fighter under trial.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 28 Dec 2010 08:36

wrdos wrote:Military fan boys (occasionally accompanied by their girlfriends)

Thanks. All questions on the authenticity of J-20 can be laid to rest

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 09:08

One more pic.
Poor English Sign, but i am moved by the love of Chengdu citizens to their aircrafts .

They are expecting somethings......

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 09:13

A most recent leaked pic.

It depends on yourself to believe or to deny.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 09:16

wrdos wrote:One more pic.
Poor English Sign, but i am moved by the love of Chengdu citizens to their aircrafts .

They are expecting somethings......

OK good - the background in this image matches the background in the following 2 images

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 09:19

wrdos wrote:A most recent leaked pic.

It depends on yourself to believe or to deny.

Well I believe it now. There may well be a first flight before 31 Dec. I disagree with the analysis that says this aircraft is 90 feet long. I would put it as 55-60 feet.

Engines? No info. Unlikely to be 117S

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 09:23

Now each major Chinese military fan forums have their members waiting outside the walls of Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, report online by their iphones, since there had been a rumor that the first fly would be carried on today.

Although, according to some more reliable sources, the first fly would be more likely planned in the coming year of 2011.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 09:39

well the PLAAF might as well invite them under a big tent and provide food and drink if the intent is to let them watch the flight

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 09:40

Updated news.

An on-site military fan boy noticed there were passing by police motorbikes. And there is a small commercial jet plane parking in the factory airfield, which usually means some VIPs now staying in the company.

According to all of them, Chengdu today is quite foggy.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 09:45

wrdos wrote:Updated news.

An on-site military fan boy noticed there were passing by police motorbikes. And there is a small commercial jet plane parking in the factory airfield, which usually means some VIPs now staying in the company.

According to all of them, Chengdu today is quite foggy.

Some rumors say that the PLAAF's commander is in town, if true, the first flight will happen soon. The Chinese military websites have had live-chats over the past few days with their members giving minute by minute live updates as the plane had its taxi trials. If it's a mock up, it's gotta be a pretty damn functional mock up

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 09:58

Kanson wrote:
DavidD wrote: You're completely missing my point. My point was that you CANNOT say that the J-10 is "far superior" with any sort of credible proof, but you've already decided that that's what I meant to say and that's affecting your interpretation of every argument I've made.
Good DavidD, if that is your stand. But this was your previous statement. which is slightly different from that the one you made.

DavidD wrote:As far as air superiority goes, trustworthy sources from the PLA indicate that even the J-10A is far superior, so I suppose it's logical to assume that the J-10B is even more so. Then again, we're back to the "credible proof" thing. You'll never get credible proof of the J-10 vs. Su-27 comparison, not in any way, so you're certainly free to believe what you want.
If suppose, if there is any notion of comparison between JF-17 Vs Su-27, no one other than Pakis is going to entertain any thought of saying JF-17 is better than Su-27, am i right?

Now you and Chinese posters here and everywhere created a situation of bringing J-10 to the Su-27 table as equals. On what basis? This PLA officer said this and this aviation expert said this and from leaked out information, this can do this and that...Whenever this was confronted to bring credible information, standard reply is to put up all unsupportable records quoting this gentleman or that and then say, J-10 is superior to Su-27 as per so and so, if you want, you believe, i cannot provide any proof. If possible the discussion is further stretched to say you can't say neither Su-27 is superior nor J-10 as inferior as there is no proof.

See how clever the argument has changed. From nowhere J-10 is considered as an equal to Su-27 to be discussed to see which is superior and i cannot say, J-10 is inferior becoz i dont have any proof.

I'm just calling out this standard reply & clever tactics. I'm just saying J-10 is inferior and should not be brought for any comparison with Su-27 just like JF-17 unless you or anyone come with specs of J-10. Simple.

Next time, if anyone here says, J-10 inferior to LCA or any aircraft, pls better come with the specs of J-10, their radar capabilities, so and so and to make a point. We all believe and accept if that is true. Hope I made myself clear.

I'm glad you're calling me out on this because that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. You said, without proof, that the J-10B is inferior to the Su-27, so I told you that I heard differently(and I did, no lies in that). With that, I brought to light the fact that there is no proof one way or another. I'm glad you recognized it and now we're on the same page.

Now, as I've stated before, it's better to look at the actions rather than these mythical specs which every military fudges with. For example, you brought up the question of how many Su-27/J-11's the PLA has bought vs. the J-10. Well, since the J-10's IOC in 2003, the PLA has bought about 200 J-10's and about 100 J-11's(and no Su-27/30), so it seems like they're pretty satisfied with the high-low mix. Just to preempt any confusion, I'm not saying that it indicates the PLA likes the J-10 twice as much, it's just the nature of a high-low mix where you purchase ~twice as many of the "low".

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 28 Dec 2010 10:41

The engine doesn't seem like Al-31 as the nozzles are not tilting downwards. The engine stated for the J-XX is the WS-15 which is planned to have a thrust capability of 180 kN.

Added Later:
It could be the WS-10.

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 28 Dec 2010 12:03

Another pic from another angle

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 13:00

the engine will be something reliable...one does not fly a new a/c with a brand new engine...it would like be a AL31 for now.

the canards look quite long and big from the last pic..somewhat like the J-10 rather than the stubby ones on EF.

180-190kN in that form factor is the bleeding edge (F135 USN engine version), 160KN is F119 (raptor class)....125KN is AL31 class....let us see...I dont think that size of plane needs 2 x JSF sized engines unless they are planning to set some new T:W and climb to height mig25 style records

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 13:02

Live updates on Chinese boards said that there was a high speed taxi trial today, it lifted its head a little bit but immediately released the parachute after that so it didn't fly. Hopefully we'll see the first flight very soon.

Also, judging from the above pic by wrdos, it definitely has DSI.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 13:05

hope some observer in the tall apartments nearby had the right zoom lens gear to capture it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 13:12

China ratcheting up pressure in the air

BY YOICHI KATO NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT

2010/12/28

Japanese officials, already concerned about China's growing naval presence in the region, say Chinese military aircraft have started harassing Japanese Self-Defense Forces' aircraft over the East China Sea.

Ever since the September collision between a Chinese trawler and two Japan Coast Guard vessels near the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, Chinese military aircraft have started to approach SDF aircraft close enough to identify with the naked eye, sources said.

Along with this new behavior since October, China's air activities against Japan have been substantially stepped up since earlier this year. The number of scrambles that the Air SDF has launched against Chinese aircraft since the beginning of this fiscal year had already reached 44 as of Dec. 22, according to the Defense Ministry.

The figure is the highest in the past five years.

The Maritime SDF has been deploying EP-3 signal intelligence reconnaissance aircraft on top of P-3C patrol aircraft to the airspace northwest of the Nansei island chain on an almost daily basis to monitor Chinese air and naval activities in the area.

The Air SDF routinely intercepts electronic signals with its signal intelligence aircraft.

These reconnaissance aircraft fly within Japan's Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) and around the median line between Japan and China. Because the ADIZ is not the same as territorial airspace, foreign aircraft flying into the zone are not considered to be violating airspace. But failure to notify authorities beforehand about a flight into the zone inevitably leads to aircraft being scrambled.

Until recently, Chinese fighter jets and fighter-bombers had tended to avoid entering Japan's ADIZ. But that changed in October, a month after the Senkaku Islands incident that triggered a major diplomatic row between the two countries.

In October, a JH-7 fighter-bomber of the Chinese Navy not only entered Japan's ADIZ, but also flew past the median line and approached close enough to make a visual identification of the SDF aircraft. Japan considers the median line as marking the boundary of its exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

When SDF aircraft were scrambled, the Chinese aircraft turned around and went back. The two nations are scrambling their aircraft in response to what the other side is doing.

One military insider pointed out that this could lead to a dangerous situation.

"Chinese military pilots are less skilled than Japanese and American pilots and they fly erratically at times," said one official.

There is concern that frequent scrambles could escalate into a major incident like the one in 2001 when a U.S. Navy EP-3 collided in midair with a Chinese fighter jet over the South China Sea, leading to the death of the Chinese pilot.

Chinese aircraft have also become much more bold in their surveillance of Japan's aircraft.

On Dec. 7, during the "Keen Sword" joint military exercise between Japan and the United States, F-15 fighter jets scrambled out of Naha Air Base because an unidentified aircraft was approaching the ADIZ. It eventually entered the ADIZ and flew along the Japan-China median line.

The ASDF fighter pilots visually confirmed that it was a Chinese Navy Y-8X maritime patrol aircraft and returned to the base.

On March 12, a Y-8 airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft for the first time flew past the median line and approached near Japan.

There is speculation that the range of land-based radars along China's coast line facing the East China Sea extends only as far as the median line. However, if an AEW aircraft with a powerful radar system aboard should approach Japan by flying past the median line, Chinese military aircraft theoretically could expand their range of operations to the entire Nansei island chain, including the main Okinawa island.

As of Dec. 22, SDF aircraft had been scrambled 44 times against Chinese aircraft this fiscal year, according to Defense Ministry officials. The figure is already double that for all of fiscal 2006.

One reason for the change in China's policy is evident from a report in a military organ, which said that "Beijing did not consider its EEZ to be part of international waters."

Based on that logic, the report criticized the activity of U.S. military aircraft in the skies over China's EEZ, a sign that the Chinese military is eager to limit such activities.

Related link: http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201012270245.html

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 13:59

ShauryaT wrote:Gaur: I did a quick search on ASBM on the thread and went through the posts, not sure if the questions are still answered though. It is a lot of unknowns, at least the way I read them. I look at this DF-21 derivation as part of a system, with radar and satellite/alternate guidance means to become a weapon. So, while the DF-21 itself is well understood, the support systems are still a little unclear, at least to me.

An understanding of these aerospace and other tracking and targeting capabilities will give us an understanding of how far can China take its entire PGM and missiles.

Unfortunately, no new information has come out regarding this system, so what was unknown then remains unknown now

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 13:59

Well it's got F-35 style intakes.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 14:24

Yep, even before this picture many observers have noted that it's got DSI. Some influential member on a Chinese message board mentioned that it may have "adjustable" DSI, not sure how accurate that is. I'm pretty skeptical of that claim, since one of the advantages of DSI is that it does away with adjustable parts and thus save both weight and maintenance time.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 28 Dec 2010 14:38

Willard says ASBM may have attained IOC in "western terms".

I hope these developments make GOI understand the critical importance of speeding up various programs.

The engine is probably AL-31F-M1 which chicom was interested in. DSI isn't a big development . the J-10zB has demonstrated that anyway. They have been working on it for quite a while.

who knows may be the J-XX is exactly what the AMCA project required.

Anyway as an aside KS's articles in the IE are of great importance.

These chinese developments haven't taken place in a void. they have got a lot from the US during the last 30 years.

And now for cash they'll try to get more.

G-2 is a huge threat especially on the industrial capability side.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2010 15:20

Eyewitness indicate that the J-20 has W-shaped wings, I suppose kinda like the B-2. Also says that the engines look like WS-10's, not sure if that's true tho since that'd be harder to identify than the wing shape.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2010 16:29

I think it would have diamond or delta shaped wings for speed...the B2 wing shape probably isnt a great one for supersonic fighters.

it looks to be atleast Su30 sized to me, if not larger...its longer than F22 for sure and probably would have room for 2 tandem internal bays (pakfa style)

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Dec 2010 16:54

That nose looks huge, Big radar to counter enemy stealth ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 17:07

Well either the nose is bulbous or the cockpit canopy is small in proportion to the F-35. In the US versions of 5 gen the nose cone is permeable only to the specific range of frequencies used by the radar. Or else the large radar antenna itself will be visible through the nose cone. Of course it is unlikely that an aircraft doing is first flight has an integrated radar. There is no "nose cone" as such visible here.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 17:09

DavidD wrote:Yep, even before this picture many observers have noted that it's got DSI. Some influential member on a Chinese message board mentioned that it may have "adjustable" DSI, not sure how accurate that is. I'm pretty skeptical of that claim, since one of the advantages of DSI is that it does away with adjustable parts and thus save both weight and maintenance time.

Without my noticing - even the J-10 seems to have acquired a DSI - making China the only country in the world with 3 aircraft types using that intake design.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2010 17:11

DavidD wrote:Eyewitness indicate that the J-20 has W-shaped wings, I suppose kinda like the B-2. Also says that the engines look like WS-10's, not sure if that's true tho since that'd be harder to identify than the wing shape.

Well it has canards, a mainwing, twin canted tailfins and twin ventral fins. The Chinese are known to make radical design changes during the development phase - so all this may change - but there are currently a lot of flat surfaces visible.

WS-10 engines. Well I have no idea. It's MTBF is quoted as being something like 30 hours.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Dec 2010 17:42

shiv wrote:Well either the nose is bulbous or the cockpit canopy is small in proportion to the F-35. In the US versions of 5 gen the nose cone is permeable only to the specific range of frequencies used by the radar. Or else the large radar antenna itself will be visible through the nose cone. Of course it is unlikely that an aircraft doing is first flight has an integrated radar. There is no "nose cone" as such visible here.

Yes, the canopy does looks small. But still, the fuselage has a completely different aspect ratio compared to say the PAK-FA , "taller" rather than "flatter" kinda like Tejas Vs f-16. So may be it allows a radar antenna of greater surface area? Just speculating.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 28 Dec 2010 18:06

The starting point for Chengdu could have well been the good old MiG 1.42/1.44 tech demonstrator program.

The general layout is similar of course.

Lot of refinements put in, naturally - DSI, frameless canopy, I am guessing panel alignment though we need better pics for that.

The canard design is different also.

Anyway Hurrah for the Russkis, they have clearly got back their numero uno customer.

The PLAAF also has a single engined fifth gen under development with Shenyang probably taking the lead in that program and looking to power it with the WS-13 taishan.

Anyway it might just turn out to be like the Mikoyan LFI/LFS proposals and then we'll know for sure that old russki daddy has happily hived off Mikoyan's 90's work to Chicom.

Great so Chicom gets mig's work and saturn's engines for its "indigenous Program" whereas we help Sukhoi .

Of course Chicom must have paid a hell of a lot for this plane .. to both Russkis as well as the khans on the stealth side.

Only silver lining - This plane in many ways shows how the FGFA can be an improvement over the baseline T-50.

here's what we might get :

1. Panel alignment
2. Frameless canopy
3. Recessed IRST instead of that terrible ball sticking out
4. Cowlings over the engines maybe even fully recessed

rakeshkumar · Post by **rakeshkumar** » 28 Dec 2010 18:56

has any one noticed the star signs in above pictures of j-20 , i can assure you that it is a photoshop blunder by Chinese. ( they are fake pics mate).