China Military Watch

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 10:49

rohitvats wrote:^^^Has it painted all black to look menancing and add the "stealth" perception which it otherwise lack?

I think its deliberate , it adds to the PR value and the all black paint would hide things on surface they do not wish to show at this stage ,unless you get a good close up pics.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 29 Dec 2010 10:49

All those speculations about Russia selling the mig-1.44 designs to china are becoming true.
But I think that china is bluffing once more and it will rely on pakfa or some new derivative made by russians .

One cant digest that so secretive PLA is showcasing their blackbird so early .
This could only happen if they have decided that this is the final design to be tested and inducted in huge nos or it could be a fake .

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 29 Dec 2010 10:50

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Dec 2010 10:52

Is is highly impressive that the Chinese managed to develop another aircraft in such a short time. One can not help but admire their will.

But yes, engine poses a big problem. However, I do not see why AL-31 will not be able to do the job of an interim engine. 18 tonne Su-30 with external stores seems to manage all right with it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2010 10:54

hides the degree of composite usage - which expert engineers will use with the known size and metal weights to arrive at estimated weight and then plug in engine figures to arrive at kinematic performance.

great pic Zlin - the big f22 style 'tiled box' inlets and DSI are quite nicely seen....this puppy will have two internal bays or one very long internal bay!

>> One can not help but admire their will.

definitely. they take up things and make it happen by hook or crook.

to my subjective opinion it looks better than pakfa from the front....but perhaps I have been conditioned by the f22 psyops machine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 10:54

Front view , Stealthy Mig-25

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Dec 2010 10:58

Samay wrote:All those speculations about Russia selling the mig-1.44 designs to china are becoming true.
But I think that china is bluffing once more and it will rely on pakfa or some new derivative made by russians .

One cant digest that so secretive PLA is showcasing their blackbird so early .
This could only happen if they have decided that this is the final design to be tested and inducted in huge nos or it could be a fake .

There is certainly resemblance to Mig-1.44 but it will be unfair to say that it is its derivative. There are enough differences IMHO. I am very interested to see its wing design. One cannot comment on the performance at present, but the aircraft scores in the looks department...very clean and aesthetic.

I cannot understand the use of cannards though. That would certainly have an adverse effect on stealth.

As for it being fake, I though that when the first set of unclear pics had arrived. But now there cannot be any doubt that the pics are genuine.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 29 Dec 2010 10:58

vina wrote:
This is pretty long one comparable to YF-23 and PAKFA; definitely not F-35-ish
Err.. As of now all I see is a dabba that can fly IF it is powered by a suitable engine.

But what about the Engine ? The Chinese despite pouring money into it have not been able to field a SINGLE high performance engine!

A plane of that size and weight class, powered by a SU-30 type engine copied /reverse engineered by the Chinese is a dead on arrival duck. It might be stealthy alright, but definitely not have the kinematic performance of the Amir Khan planes.

As I had already explained to Grand Mullah Poobah Enqyoob-ud-Din-e-Gas Turbine.

We have Nihon Jin, Chini Jin and Yindoo Jin. But NO YINJIN

Million dollar question. Maybe for taxi trials, they can do with Al-31 variety.

Have you noticed the LCA type actuators in this...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 10:59

On the engine thing the 117S on Su-35 have proven to supercruise in tests.

Now if with all internal weapon and say a less draggy design , the 14.5 T 117S should help the J-20 supercruise , it nearly has a T/W ratio of more then 9:1.

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 29 Dec 2010 11:00

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... 83a112.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... a73ccc.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... 4e1f1f.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/atj60.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2010 11:02

time to hear to american red neck forums and study their reactions...

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Dec 2010 11:03

One cant digest that so secretive PLA is showcasing their blackbird so early .
This could only happen if they have decided that this is the final design to be tested and inducted in huge nos or it could be a fake

Oh. That is the khujli coming from the signing of the FGFA deal with Medveydev. China would have had serious thoughts for long on that (along with Pakiland of course). If that hadn't happened and the Pak-FA displayed, you wouldn't have seen this mock up being rolled out . I happen to think it is a mockup / non flying metal model for systems, unless I actually see it fly.

But anyway, expect AmirKhan to promptly ramp up F-22 (degraded versions) to the Japanese and S. Koreans along with F-35s to countries on China's periphery, including to Taiwan and pocket a lot of the dollars floating around in those countries into his coffers.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Dec 2010 11:04

Sorry if its a dumb question but what is powering it right now? the AL-31F ?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 29 Dec 2010 11:06

zlin wrote:

why it has those bumps under its wings (LCA type for flaps)? wont that hit the RCS?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 11:06

Prasad wrote:Sorry if its a dumb question but what is powering it right now? the AL-31F ?

Everything is speculation but one does needs a reliable engine during flight testing program and AL-31F is something the Chinese would have as handy and reliable.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 11:09

vina wrote:But anyway, expect AmirKhan to promptly ramp up F-22 (degraded versions) to the Japanese and S. Koreans along with F-35s to countries on China's periphery, including to Taiwan and pocket a lot of the dollars floating around in those countries into his coffers.

The problem with F-22 is its an expensive bird and most American agree the production line wont start up , now if one adds to the fact that it needs more then 30 hours of down time for every hour it flies its not inspiring either.

The F-22 line is dead for all practical purpose , the F-35 is something people will stick to.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2010 11:09

What is the white thing near the under carriage. I could see them consistently across all the pics. It is open even when the aircraft is taxiing in the second pic by Jlin. In the frontal pic by Jlin, it can be seen side on in front of the wheels.

Between seems like nobody is going by the all stealth mantra anymore. Those canards can not be stealthy by any means.

To me the resemblance between the Mig 1.44 and the J-XX is quite obvious. Obviously it is not what J-11 is to SU-27. But the plan form is very very similar. It is Mig1.44 being refined by today's stealth design know how. Going for side intakes from the Mig's original plans is stealth roadside knowledge. Also once has to have minimum number of body angles the VS naturally becomes canted. If you would have the chin in your forward fuselage , one would obviously put the canard as a continuation of the chin. that makes perfect aerodynamic and FCS sense. Now that the wing roots and the canard roots are in line, you would get the same effect of the Mig 1.44's canard by giving the wing a slight anhedral and the canard a dihedral.

I don't know how anybody could negate the obvious signs.

To me the plane doesn't seem unusually large either (looks around 60-70 feet to me). I don't know why they would need two 180 KN engines!

I don't think that they can have a long internal bay with the engines so close by. The internal weapons bay will be more F-22 like.

But all in all thumbs up to the Chinese to get their prototype out there. It remains to be seen what they do with the engines. But they have 5-10 years to sort that out.

I hope this provides a nice kick to our babus sitting on their hands.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Dec 2010 11:09

Austin wrote:On the engine thing the 117S on Su-35 have proven to supercruise in tests.

Now if with all internal weapon and say a less draggy design , the 14.5 T 117S should help the J-20 supercruise , it nearly has a T/W ratio of more then 9:1.

The fundamental problem with all these "fat" all under the aircraft skin design is, is that it increases the wetted surface area and the frontal cross section for all regimes (both loaded with internal weapons or empty), unlike a conventional fighter.

Think of it as more like a bomber (with weapons internally as is normal) but with missiles instead of bombs carried internally and then go back to see that with given engine power what is the performance difference between a bomber and fighter (in maneuver and speed) and why ?.

There is nothing new as for as wing design goes.. heck. that has been investigated to the death (think NACA ), so the fundamental differentiator is the systems and engines , where the Chinese dont cut the mustard.

Bottom line, you take the SU-35 engines and put it in a plane that by definition has to be "fatter" and lot more draggy than an SU-35 , but of similar weight class, you know what the result will be.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2010 11:12

...those fat moog actuator housings were derided in the Tejas as starving cowardly yindu stuff...guess that criticism will go away now...

the f35 had better be losing some weight or getting a mighty new amraam-2 missile (I think they have a JADM - joint air dominance missile IOC 2020).

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 29 Dec 2010 11:17

oops already posted

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 29 Dec 2010 11:19

Meanwhile.....
Chinese and Japanese fighter aircraft Intercept each other

“Chinese military pilots are less skilled than Japanese and American pilots and they fly erratically at times,” said one official.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 11:19

vina wrote:The fundamental problem with all these "fat" all under the aircraft skin design is, is that it increases the wetted surface area and the frontal cross section for all regimes (both loaded with internal weapons or empty), unlike a conventional fighter.

But isnt the fat all under the aircraft skin design also fundamental to F-22 and JSF design

Think of it as more like a bomber (with weapons internally as is normal) but with missiles instead of bombs carried internally and then go back to see that with given engine power what is the performance difference between a bomber and fighter (in maneuver and speed) and why ?.

Yes it is more like Strike aircraft with good internal weapon bay and greater persistance , but it would certainly be more manouverable then JSF.

There is nothing new as for as wing design goes.. heck. that has been investigated to the death (think NACA ), so the fundamental differentiator is the systems and engines , where the Chinese dont cut the mustard.

Agreed there is no revolution or leap forward in design , its a stealthy box with huge wings , nothing better then F-22 design or worse and engines and systems is not Chinese high point , something US scores and gets away with in F-22.

Bottom line, you take the SU-35 engines and put it in a plane that by definition has to be "fatter" and lot more draggy than an SU-35 , but of similar weight class, you know what the result will be.

Very much possible , they will need a much more powerful engine in 16T class.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 29 Dec 2010 11:24

Once again thanks zlin for these clear pictures.

In one the pic posted last by zlin, one can see the backside of J-xx clearly resembling Mig-1.44.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Dec 2010 11:24

Hmm. First posts of the Mushrraf. So it does seem not to have any thrust vectoring.

So lets face it. It aint going to be any major air dominance going against F-22/Pak-Fa types. Given the T:W ratio, the size and everything, it looks more like a stealthy striker , optimized for subsonic cruise and a secondary A2A capability .

Sorry guys. This is a like the F/A -18 , with a small f and a large A.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Dec 2010 11:39

Admins, My chrome browser is giving me this warning

The website at forums.bharat-rakshak.com contains elements from the site www.fyjs.cn, which appears to host malware – software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. ...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Dec 2010 11:40

Sid wrote:
zlin wrote:
why it has those bumps under its wings (LCA type for flaps)? wont that hit the RCS?

Don't know if any one of you have seen the animated movie wonder woman released in 2007. In that movie there is a dogfight between US and some un named nation's combat aircraft. The US fighter is the F 23. Intialy I had thought that the other one was Mig 1.44. But looking at the pictures from diffrent angle of this one. The other fighter was the one whose picture is posted above.

So am not really sure if this is the real deal. As the resemblence is striking.

JMT

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 Dec 2010 11:48

abhik wrote:Admins, My chrome browser is giving me this warning
The website at forums.bharat-rakshak.com contains elements from the site www.fyjs.cn, which appears to host malware – software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. ...

Those pics posted by zlin are from www.fyjs.cn

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Dec 2010 11:54

Austin wrote:But isnt the fat all under the aircraft skin design also fundamental to F-22 and JSF design

Yes it is. That is why despite have a 12:1 T:W ratio engine, the F-35 has barely the maneuver and range performance of an F-16 and that is despite the F-35's thrust vectoring.

Yes it is more like Strike aircraft with good internal weapon bay and greater persistance , but it would certainly be more manouverable then JSF.

Yes. It is a Chinese JSF analog. I doubt it will be any better than the JSF though. We have to see the T:W ratio and the fact that the Chinese plane doesn't seem to have thrust vectoring.

Very much possible , they will need a much more powerful engine in 16T class.

Not exactly. The need that engine in the 11:1 to 12:1 T:W ratio class.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 29 Dec 2010 11:55

Austin wrote:
Prasad wrote:Sorry if its a dumb question but what is powering it right now? the AL-31F ?
Everything is speculation but one does needs a reliable engine during flight testing program and AL-31F is something the Chinese would have as handy and reliable.

We have clear pics of the rear now, so it doesn't have to be all speculation anymore. Judging by those pics, they're definitely not the AL-31. They look very much like the WS-10 or its derivative. Obviously, the final production model isn't gonna use the WS-10, but they should be enough to test its aerodynamic performance.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Dec 2010 11:57

zlin wrote:http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... 83a112.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... a73ccc.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... 4e1f1f.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/atj60.jpg

could you please host these pics elsewhere like imageshack ? I'm getting a virus warning from these pages.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Dec 2010 12:01

vina wrote:
Austin wrote:But isnt the fat all under the aircraft skin design also fundamental to F-22 and JSF design
Yes it is. That is why despite have a 12:1 T:W ratio engine, the F-35 has barely the maneuver and range performance of an F-16 and that is despite the F-35's thrust vectoring.

Yes. It is a Chinese JSF analog. I doubt it will be any better than the JSF though. We have to see the T:W ratio and the fact that the Chinese plane doesn't seem to have thrust vectoring.

F-35B does not have TVC for maneuvering in air. Its TVC is used only for STOVL puroposes. F-35A (the air force version) obviously does not have even that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Dec 2010 12:04

A question: If this thing has to fly, would not the chinese need quadruple FBW technology to be implemented? Where does Chinese R&D stand in this regard? Thanx.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 29 Dec 2010 12:25

From net:

http://cnair.top81.cn/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm
J-20 Black Eagle

The J-20 #2001 prototype was photographed when it was preparing for high-speed taxiing trial at the CAC airfield on December 22, 2010. The prototype features a pair of all-moving tailfins and Russian 1.44 style ventral stabilizing fins, which shield the engine nozzles. It also features F-22 style Caret intakes but with DSI bumps installed at the upper corners, as well as a one-piece canopy. However the canards appear extending slightly above the plane of the main wings thus it might increase RCS. First disclosed by US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) in 1997 as XXJ, J-20 is the 4th generation multi-role fighter to enter the service around 2015. Since 90s both CAC/611 Institute and SAC/601 Institute had been working their own designs for a twin-engine multi-role heavy fighter with stealth capability and maneuverability comparable to American F-22. It was speculated that 601 Institute was working on a "tri-plane" design based on canard/conventional layout/V-shape tailfin while 611 Institute working on a design based on canard/tailless delta wing/all moving V-shape tailfin/side DSI/bump inlet layout. All designs were expected to feature an internal weapon bay to reduce RCS, which has been speculated to be <0.05m2 (head-on). It was also rumored that J-20 could initially be powered by two 13,200kg/WS-10 class turbofan engines with TVC nozzles which would result in a normal TO weight exceeding 20t. J-20 also incorporates an advanced FBW system fully integrated with the fire-control and the engine systems. Its fire-control radar is expected to be AESA (Type 1475/KLJ5?). The aircraft may feature a "pure" glass cockpit (a single F-35 style color LCD display and a wide-angle holographic HUD). Many of these subsystems have been tested onboard J-10B to speed up the development (see above). Russian assistance has been speculated in terms of software support for calculating the RCS of various designs, as well as the rumored supply of Salyut 99M2 turbofan engine (14,000kg class) to power the prototypes, if the domestic engine (such as improved WS-10A) fails to meet the schedule. The overall performance of J-20 is thought to be superior to Russian T-50 (stealth) but still inferior to American F-22 (electronics & supercruise). It was reported in November 2006 that a T/W=10 17,000kg class turbofan (WS-15/"large thrust") is being developed for J-20. In August 2008 it was reported that 611 Institute was selected to be the main contractor for the development of J-20 and 601 Institute as the sub-contractor. Subsequently a full-scale metal mockup was built at CAC. One rumor in May 2010 claimed that 611 Institute started to construct the first prototype, which was expected to fly by the end of 2010, even though the full configuration model won't fly until a few years later. The latest news indicated that the first two prototypes (#2001 & 2002) have been constructed and the first high-speed taxiing trial by 2001 took place on December 22, 2010.
- Last Updated 12/28/10

If the info is correct, it got a name, black eagle and it may take few years to fly.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Dec 2010 12:31

Guys,

It is a hoax until proven otherwise. How many times in the past have we seen the celeberation of Photoshopped items from the PRC fanboys. Only to have it proven a photoshopped image.

JMT

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 12:37

DavidD wrote:We have clear pics of the rear now, so it doesn't have to be all speculation anymore. Judging by those pics, they're definitely not the AL-31. They look very much like the WS-10 or its derivative. Obviously, the final production model isn't gonna use the WS-10, but they should be enough to test its aerodynamic performance.

David , the speculation part was respect to the engine , if its not any russian engine it would be chinese variant.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 29 Dec 2010 12:40

indranilroy wrote:What is the white thing near the under carriage. I could see them consistently across all the pics. It is open even when the aircraft is taxiing in the second pic by Jlin. In the frontal pic by Jlin, it can be seen side on in front of the wheels.

Undercarriage door.

zlin wrote:

Cheers....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 12:50

rohitvats wrote:A question: If this thing has to fly, would not the chinese need quadruple FBW technology to be implemented? Where does Chinese R&D stand in this regard? Thanx.

J-10 is claimed to have digital quad FBW , developed with Israel assistance ... so they do have exposure to fbw technology.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 29 Dec 2010 12:55

The 1s posted by Zlin, i think - Firefox throwing me warnings

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4299 ... aj2001.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5056/2 ... aj2002.jpg

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1443 ... aj2003.jpg

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3233 ... aj2004.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2010 12:55

vina wrote:Yes it is. That is why despite have a 12:1 T:W ratio engine, the F-35 has barely the maneuver and range performance of an F-16 and that is despite the F-35's thrust vectoring.

True , I think AMCA too will faces the issue of large wetted surface area and would need a engine with higher T/W ratio.

Not exactly. The need that engine in the 11:1 to 12:1 T:W ratio class.

Hypothetically what if they can achieve substantial weight reduction with the aircraft , will that still need higher T/W engine ? Weight has been the nemesis for most new gen aircraft.

starek · Post by **starek** » 29 Dec 2010 12:58

Prasad wrote:Sorry if its a dumb question but what is powering it right now? the AL-31F ?

Looks like WS-10, F-110 clone. They have fitted them on Su-27s, and a J-10 for testing.