India Nuclear News And Discussion

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GuruPrabhu
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 09 Jan 2011 00:30

Acharya wrote:
somnath wrote:
But Indira Gandhi, with her "CIA" insecurities, and stupid anti-americanism, demurred....And out went the opportunity that came around 3 decades later...

This is a immature statement. India was pressure and they had a covert war against India. IG was a victim of the covert war.


India (Nehru and later IG) chose this war because they refused America's demands/overtures. In realpolitik terms, it is not clear whether this choice was in India's best interests. If you tell off a bully and retain your H&D, you should be prepared for when the bully launches a war (overt or covert) on you. Running into Soviet arms was the response of Mrs. IG, a move that was necessitated by circumstances rather than original choice. Essentially, non-alignment backfired on India big time.

p.s. -- my post was before Acharya-ji's two edits.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2011 02:09

Mrs IG did face threat and it was not her insecurity.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 09 Jan 2011 08:26

ramana wrote:Mrs IG did face threat and it was not her insecurity.


metaphorical or real? link please?

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 09 Jan 2011 11:10

Acharya wrote:This is a immature statement. India was under pressure and they had a covert war against India. IG was a victim of the covert war.
Cold war politics was against India s growth and development


Any account of the so-called war? Outside of IG's own mind? AS Pilloo Modi exemplified it by wearing the "I am a CIA agent" placard in Parliament...About toss-up with economic growth, well IG's antidiluvian policies presided over the worst, the very worst phase of independent India's economic history...Barring the green revolution, there was no bright spot...And it took a full blown crisis in 1991 for the shibboleths to the blown away....

vera_k wrote:Something doesn't gell.

Moynihan's book also says that Kissinger was confident about Indira because she was


Usually I take these claims about people taking money with a pinch of salt, because both sides claim to paying off the higests levels (read Mitrokhin, Oleg Kalugin)...Maybe our guys were accepting money from both and double crossing both! :)

The US is a practitioner of realpolitik, it has always played that masterfully...There have been numerous instances when we could have used that to our advantage, but a sneering contempt (borne out of nothing substantial in achievement really) made us look for such effete concepts as non alignment, south-south solidarity and all the associated nonsense...

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Jan 2011 11:48

From the Hindu article posted above:

“I told him that while we could not make a public declaration unilaterally that we would not transfer the benefits of such technology to other countries, however, if there was a consensus among the nuclear powers, then we might consider joining such a consensus. I expressed this as my personal opinion but told him that I would convey his views to my government.”


Kaul said this. Right? Why is this an unfair demand?

It should be remembered that India did not help any country to get nuclear capability (whereas Pakistan did).

It is funny that Kissinger was "anxious that other countries like Pakistan should not develop nuclear weapon". Probably he should have talked to his president Nixon about it, who was not bothered by Pakistan's nuclear weapon programme.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Jan 2011 12:26

somnath wrote:.And mind you, all of that started when we rebuffed the US on the proposals spoke of above...MTCR wsnt relavent in 1974 either, not for India in any case...The "dual-use disabilities" on the space programme is more a child of the early '90s, when SU collapsed and the US started peremptorily flexing single superpower muscles, not Pok I...


It is ironical that US "understood" Pokharan-I tests and it would "not mind" if we make nuclear weapons, but went ahead with NSG. Given that US officials willingly closed their eyes when Pakis were buying nuclear components from US, what right do they have to preach the importance of not transferring nuclear technologies to other countries? (As mentioned before, we were not involved in any such shady business.)

I guess we should have acted like the Pakis who promised that they wouldn't transfer nuclear technology to any country!

somnath wrote: MTCR wsnt relavent in 1974 either, not for India in any case....


India started her missile program in 1983. MTCR was established in 1987.

somnath wrote:..The "dual-use disabilities" on the space programme is more a child of the early '90s, when SU collapsed and the US started peremptorily flexing single superpower muscles,not Pok I...


India was accused of pursuing nuclear weapons due to Pokharan-I tests and sanctions on dual-use technology aim at stopping the proliferation of nuclear weapons. So Pokharan-I is surely relevant for understanding the sanctions.

Moreover, these sanctions are vigorously applied on countries which have a nuclear programme. Note that Pakis frequently used fake companies in Malaysia to buy nuclear components because Malaysia had no nuclear programme.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Jan 2011 12:46

somnath wrote:... but a sneering contempt (borne out of nothing substantial in achievement really) made us look for such effete concepts as non alignment, south-south solidarity and all the associated nonsense...


We can do better than this polemic.

Why are these concepts "effete"? What is wrong with non-alignment?

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 09 Jan 2011 17:05

abhishek_sharma wrote:Kaul said this. Right? Why is this an unfair demand


Abhishek, that was the fundamental problem with the approach...The inability to grasp opportunities with the West because of lofty notions of international fair play..During the nuke deal, we didnt wait for an international endorsement of our status - we just went ahead and did a deal with the only power who could deliver..Rest of the world followed...

Obviously, in case we dont use opportnities to align with a great power more closely, the latter would go ahead and do what it thinks is in its own best interest...The US was (and is) more comfortable with an India acquiring nukes...It isnt comfortable having a plethora of "rogue states", Iran to Saudi to Venezuela sporting nukes...Hence there was an offer, an incipient one, but one nevertheless to India to join a US-led effort to preserve the status quo...But we were so caught up in our distrust of the US (a function of mythical CIA plots against IG) and our fascination with non-alignment that we just let the oportunity pass even without giving it a serious effort...

What was wrong with non alignment? Fundamentally, the entire exercise of a 100 guys gathering periodically, bashing the US, and then taking the next plane to Washington/New York for the next aid check or PL480 consignment...

For India, somehow we had a few more stars in our eyes about it than more others...To our detriment..

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 09 Jan 2011 19:24

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is ironical that US "understood" Pokharan-I tests and it would "not mind" if we make nuclear weapons, but went ahead with NSG.


NSG was established in 1975, so it would help to know what transpired between 1971 and 1975. I believe Somnath is saying that there were negotiations in that period which did not come to fruition. Indira went ahead with POK-I and Uncle-ji responded with the creation of the NSG.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 09 Jan 2011 22:55

somnath wrote:
Acharya wrote:This is a immature statement. India was under pressure and they had a covert war against India. IG was a victim of the covert war.
Cold war politics was against India s growth and development


Any account of the so-called war? Outside of IG's own mind? AS Pilloo Modi exemplified it by wearing the "I am a CIA agent" placard in Parliament...About toss-up with economic growth, well IG's antidiluvian policies presided over the worst, the very worst phase of independent India's economic history...Barring the green revolution, there was no bright spot...And it took a full blown crisis in 1991 for the shibboleths to the blown away....

www.addictedtowar.com/docs/The.War.Agai ... .World.pdf

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... 5cc797b8b8

Cold war created lot of enemies for India

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Sanku » 09 Jan 2011 23:20

I am so happy, as Brihaspti-ji keeps saying, its important to have Dandi-moments, separates the wheat from chaff, and clearly lays out loyalties. The thread just had a Dandi moment.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby krisna » 10 Jan 2011 00:01

Russia keen to partner India in tapping thorium cycle
Russia is a leader in fast neutron reactors
India has the capability in using thorium cycle based processes to extract nuclear fuel
India has 25% of the world's thorium reserves

According to the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) officials, the two countries are working on plans to develop a “new generation” fast neutron reactor after the Russian side forwarded a proposal during the official visit of the President, Mr Dmitry Medvedev, to India earlier last month.
In India's three-stage nuclear electricity programme, the breeder reactors form a vital link between the first and third stages.
In the first stage, 20 Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWRs), that are fuelled by natural uranium, are already in operation.
The second stage envisages building a series of breeder reactors that will use plutonium reprocessed from the PHWRs' spent fuel and depleted uranium.
In the third stage, reactors will use thorium and uranium-233 to generate electricity.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 10 Jan 2011 08:05



Boss, with respect, how is a Google search detailing America's various wars relevant to India? IG somehow was terrified (or at least pretended to be) that she would be given the "Allende treatment"...But American views and actions on India were defined very differently..Not because they "love(d)" us, but because we have always been a special case in our geopolitical space..There is absolutely no evidence of the US trying anything like their shenanigans in South America etc in India..


GuruPrabhu wrote:NSG was established in 1975, so it would help to know what transpired between 1971 and 1975


Not quite, the key is what happened between 1974 (after Pok I) and 1975, when the NSG was set up..VArious sources now reveal that the US was ready to engage with India to formulate a new global nuke architecture, where they would trade support for India's nukes for our support for global non-proliferation...Seems we just dismissed it out of hand...Maybe, just maybe if we hadnt, Pak would not have gotten their nukes so easily..

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 10 Jan 2011 08:13

yes, of course create new history if the correct history doesnt match the world view.

From the dog's mouth
http://www.nuclearsuppliersgroup.org/Le ... istory.htm

The NSG was created following the explosion in 1974 of a nuclear device by a non-nuclear-weapon State, which demonstrated that nuclear technology transferred for peaceful purposes could be misused.


even during the npt formulation, it was clear that the concerns of all other countries were being taken into account except India.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 10 Jan 2011 08:17

somnath wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:NSG was established in 1975, so it would help to know what transpired between 1971 and 1975


Not quite, the key is what happened between 1974 (after Pok I) and 1975, when the NSG was set up..VArious sources now reveal that the US was ready to engage with India to formulate a new global nuke architecture, where they would trade support for India's nukes for our support for global non-proliferation...Seems we just dismissed it out of hand...Maybe, just maybe if we hadnt, Pak would not have gotten their nukes so easily..

Except the definition of "global non-proliferation" is different when the US uses and when India uses.

Their definition of "global non-proliferation" was no "non-nuclear-weapon-state" can have nukes. So supporting "global non-proliferation" meant India rolling back its nuclear program.

We use "global non-proliferation" in the sense of US, China and Pak's global nuclear market.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 10 Jan 2011 08:27

ravi_ku wrote:Their definition of "global non-proliferation" was no "non-nuclear-weapon-state" can have nukes. So supporting "global non-proliferation" meant India rolling back its nuclear program


Not necessarily at all..Read Moynihan's book, read the state Department papers...Kissinger was ready to trade an acceptance of India's weapons status for our support on non-proliferation...At least that was the "big picture"..We never gotten around to discussing the details, as we were not even interested!

Of course, the US went by what it thought would serve its objectives better..Its just that we didnt serve our objectives well at all then by

a) not going ahead and weaponising and
b) not trying to take Kissinger up on the offer and cut a separate (nuke deal circa 2008) type deal

Rest, as they say is history!

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 10 Jan 2011 08:43

somnath,

Thanks for a new refreshing perspective. It separates wheat from chaff and highlights irrational takleef.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 10 Jan 2011 09:22

somnath wrote:


Boss, with respect, how is a Google search detailing America's various wars relevant to India? IG somehow was terrified (or at least pretended to be) that she would be given the "Allende treatment"...But American views and actions on India were defined very differently..Not because they "love(d)" us, but because we have always been a special case in our geopolitical space..There is absolutely no evidence of the US trying anything like their shenanigans in South America etc in India..

Where you in India during that period - 1972-1980

I know that this can be difficult but things have started to come out in the last 10 years.
They have similar process and method for most of the country.
Please read this book
The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters
Frances Stonor Saunders (Author)


Try to find out about "Indian congress for Cultural Freedom"

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 10 Jan 2011 09:45

Acharya wrote:Please read this book
The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters
Frances Stonor Saunders (Author)


I was in the world (and in India) for a part of that period, but I guess a bit too "immature" to be impacted by American diplomatic shenanigans :wink:

I will see if I can lay my hands on the book..

But really, there isnt a scintilla of evidence from any accounts (political, bureaucratic or academic), or for that matter from any declassified records (the US declassifies suff religiously and regularly) that points out a larger US gameplan of subverting the Indian state, or assassinating her leaders...the reason? Simple, large complex nations with complex state structures are mighty difficult to "change" through external interventions..Not without a debilitating war, and in many case, even after winning one...In any case, India was never in the "anti" camp - it was just the political elite in India was for long blinded by Nehru's (increasingly effete) worldviews......

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 10 Jan 2011 20:26

somnath wrote:
But really, there isnt a scintilla of evidence from any accounts (political, bureaucratic or academic), or for that matter from any declassified records (the US declassifies suff religiously and regularly) that points out a larger US gameplan of subverting the Indian state, or assassinating her leaders...the reason? Simple, large complex nations with complex state structures are mighty difficult to "change" through external interventions..Not without a debilitating war, and in many case, even after winning one...In any case, India was never in the "anti" camp - it was just the political elite in India was for long blinded by Nehru's (increasingly effete) worldviews......



You need to become familiar with Cold war history to understand how they subverted govt including large complex countries such as India. India after the pact with Soviet Union in 1971 was under the enemy camp. You can read article which shows Visakhapatnam was the target of first strike in case of nuclear war between US and USSR
They worked with Indians inside India and outside India and did "change" India.
They could get enough Indian corroborators who worked with them to "change" India.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3195500/IRF-EDITED2006-Rev30
The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters
by Frances Stonor Saunders
It is well known that the CIA funded right-wing intellectuals after World War II; fewer know that it also courted individuals from the center and the left in an effort to turn the intelligentsia away from communism and toward an acceptance of "the American way." Frances Stonor Saunders sifts through the history of the covert Congress for Cultural Freedom in The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters. The book centers on the career of Michael Josselson, the principal intellectual figure in the operation, and his eventual betrayal by people who scapegoated him. Sanders demonstrates that, in the early days, the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and the emergent CIA were less dominated by the far right than they later became( including the Christian right), and that the idea of helping out progressive moderates--rather than being Machiavellian--actually appealed to the men at the top.
Says Saunders, the CIA thought it prudent to bribe name brand writers when the Cold War got under way . Bribery makes great writers; Saunders' list of those who took bribes includes the best poets, novelists and pop writers of the era. This exhaustive account, despite neglecting some important side issues, is an essential book.
It will be interesting to know the Indian congress for cultural freedom was handled by JayaPrakash Narayan in 60s and 70s and this was funded by the CIA. The labor strikes and chaos was organized and supported by this organization to oppose IG after the 1974 bomb. The Plan started in Nov 1974 resulting in emergency deliration by the summer of 1975. The subaltern studies and breach between the historians and struggle of the lower class social groups coincided during the same time. This was used to increase the dissent among communities and a new left in India was born which was essentially against the federal government and the central authority.
The containment of communism is one of the fascinating aspect of the last century by the US and western alliance. Bad publicity, false information and disinformation is used to defame the opponent and this was done by the dirty tricks department. Then the local population is coerced to fight the government and oppose all the policies. Images are built to show that the ideology is bad and examples are shown to the wider world how bad is that group or ideology. There is subtle form of brainwashing to make sure that the news is tilted towards one side of the story. Over all the US government got itself a powerful media and subversive control in entire world by the end of the cold war that it could change the course of history like no other country in history.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby krisna » 10 Jan 2011 21:21

Nuclear Power - Myths Busted (Pt. 1 of 3)
Nuclear Power - Myths Busted (Pt. 2 of 3)
Nuclear Power - Myths Busted (Pt. 3 of 3)

Youtube videos

Do you know you can never completely dismantle a nuclear power plant? Ever. Is it then any surprise that the country which pioneered nuclear technology and nuclear power plants, have not built one in the last 25 years?

A French company, Areva, however is building the world's largest nuclear power plant, that too based on technology that has not been completely tested, in the pristine, beautiful coastline of Ratnagiri (Jaitapur Town), India.

In these videos, Rada Krishna, who was the construction manager in building the last and the largest nuclear reactor of the US in San Onofre, California goes beyond the known clichés for and against the same, to talks about issues rarely, if at all, talked about. He busts many myths surrounding the construction, working, dismantling and the zillion hazards -- economic, social, environmental and political - of a nuclear power plant.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 11 Jan 2011 00:48

Rada Krishna, who was the construction manager in building the last and the largest nuclear reactor of the US in San Onofre, California goes beyond the known clichés for and against the same, to talks about issues rarely, if at all, talked about

Funny San Onofre's web site (http://www.sce.com/powerandenvironment/powergeneration/sanonofrenucleargeneratingstation/default.htm) makes no mention of Mr. Krisna, let alone claim that "it is largest in US" .
Also, for example, in this list, for example, it is not even listed in top 30. Largest Nuclear Power Plants in the U.S.

To be fair, I did not look at the videos in detail, getting really turned off by claims of "degrees in science & engineering" along with "big" position(s) and finding calling some of the most studied subjects as "no one studied these" and other nonsense (IMO, of course) just in a few minutes of the videos.

BTW, San Onofre's site is famous for one thing: Paki's Terrorists Air Force Pilots attempt to bomb this site using (stolen) US F-16s... (Not in real life but in thriller "Fallout" :).. It was also the site shown in my favorite Batman TV series starring West as Gotham city nuclear reactor. It has also been mention in some other popular movies..:) so the site is famous but not the "largest" :)

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Prem » 11 Jan 2011 03:07

Canadian parliament to ratify nuclear power agreement in February
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 078035.ece
Canadian Parliament is all set to ratify in February the civil nuclear deal with India, giving a fresh boost to bilateral cooperation even as the two countries are expected to seal a Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) in the next six months.Canadian High Commissioner Stewart G. Beck said the Nuclear Power Agreement (NCA) signed with India in June last year ending a 36-year-old freeze in civil nuclear cooperation is likely to be ratified by parliament in his country next month.“It will also have to be ratified by Indian Parliament,” he told PTI, adding, ratification of the agreement and negotiating its administrative arrangements were necessary before the accord can be implemented.“Once in place, the agreement will allow India access to Canadian nuclear technology, equipment and fuel,” the envoy said.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 11 Jan 2011 07:39

Prem wrote:Canadian parliament to ratify nuclear power agreement in February


Its sweet memories for us - after all that changed the nuclear world was over a CANDU reactor and its usage! :)

It will be interesting to know the Indian congress for cultural freedom was handled by JayaPrakash Narayan in 60s and 70s and this was funded by the CIA. The labor strikes and chaos was organized and supported by this organization to oppose IG after the 1974 bomb. The Plan started in Nov 1974 resulting in emergency deliration by the summer of 1975. The subaltern studies and breach between the historians and struggle of the lower class social groups coincided during the same time. This was used to increase the dissent among communities and a new left in India was born which was essentially against the federal government and the central authority.


I said before, all these insinuations on "funding" and its possible impact on people's actions seem waay exxaggerated...Both sides claim to be funding at the HIGHEST levels, both sides claim to be influencing actions...Its a bit rich...

And Jayprkash Narayan being "bribed" by the US? A lifeong socialist romantic, someone who gave the best (and worst) years of his life to fighting for libertarian principles?! TO assume that the '70s JP movement was CIA's doing is a bit like saying that 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy! It has to be a massive lack of knowledge on the situation in India to be deducing that...

No declasified official record, no memoirs from authoritative sources have showed any South America-type plans for India that US had...It was a convenient bogey for IG to preserve power....

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2011 08:26

somnath wrote:
I said before, all these insinuations on "funding" and its possible impact on people's actions seem waay exxaggerated...Both sides claim to be funding at the HIGHEST levels, both sides claim to be influencing actions...Its a bit rich...

And Jayprkash Narayan being "bribed" by the US? A lifeong socialist romantic, someone who gave the best (and worst) years of his life to fighting for libertarian principles?! TO assume that the '70s JP movement was CIA's doing is a bit like saying that 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy! It has to be a massive lack of knowledge on the situation in India to be deducing that...

No declasified official record, no memoirs from authoritative sources have showed any South America-type plans for India that US had...It was a convenient bogey for IG to preserve power....

You are mistaken and it is OK to be not aware of this. Archives have come out about various govt funding NGO and groups for a long time. This is not a secret http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive

US and CIA was also funding leftist groups and it is not a secret. The book itself has details of CIA funding congress for cultural freedom in various countries. India was not the only target.
http://bss.sfsu.edu/fischer/ir%20360/Re ... reedom.htm
Besides setting the Congress in motion, [the Berlin conference in 1950] helped to solidify CIA's emerging strategy of promoting the non-Communist left--the strategy that would soon become the theoretical foundation of the Agency's political operations against Communism over the next two decades.
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp ... ulturkampf



If you want to be blind and not want to accept what is already acknowledged then there is nothing more to discuss.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 11 Jan 2011 09:05

Acharya wrote:You are mistaken and it is OK to be not aware of this. Archives have come out about various govt funding NGO and groups for a long time. This is not a secret http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive


Acharya-ji, That is a bait and switch of gigantic proportions. The link above talks of the KGB!

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 11 Jan 2011 09:09

Acharya wrote:Besides setting the Congress in motion, [the Berlin conference in 1950] helped to solidify CIA's emerging strategy of promoting the non-Communist left--the strategy that would soon become the theoretical foundation of the Agency's political operations against Communism over the next two decades.
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp ... ulturkampf


and this one claims that TWO GUYS engineered the sex/drugs/rock'n'roll culture in america. :rotfl:

Boss, sorry but things have to at least pass the ROFL test to be taken seriously.

If you want to be blind and not want to accept what is already acknowledged then there is nothing more to discuss.


If you want to believe every conspiracy theory on some webpage then there is a LOT left to be discussed.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2011 09:23

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Acharya wrote:You are mistaken and it is OK to be not aware of this. Archives have come out about various govt funding NGO and groups for a long time. This is not a secret http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive


Acharya-ji, That is a bait and switch of gigantic proportions. The link above talks of the KGB!

I said many govts were involved. This has been discussed many times here and more than 5 years in BRF.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2011 09:31

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Boss, sorry but things have to at least pass the ROFL test to be taken seriously.


If you want to believe every conspiracy theory on some webpage then there is a LOT left to be discussed.

If you are familiar with the cold war and the culture war between the east and the west none of this is funny.
I am serious.
All of them are documented in official archives from these govts

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 11 Jan 2011 09:48

Boss, please enlighten us with these official archives and a summary discussion. You are well regarded on BRF but also infamous for dropping succinct one-liner posts without substance. Regards.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2011 10:11

Maybe someother time when more people are interested. This was discussed more than 5 years ago
This article is good summary

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1199petr.htm

This is the official website
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... arner.html

somnath
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 11 Jan 2011 10:30

Acharya wrote:Maybe someother time when more people are interested. This was discussed more than 5 years ago
This article is good summary

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1199petr.htm

This is the official website
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... arner.html


Acharya, there is nothing in the articles there that suggest anything close to "Allende-type" treatment...Cultural cold war?! Well, even today cultural organisations are patronised by foreign governments all the time, not just in India but everywhere...It is obviously with the intent of influencing, getting one's message across and so on...But to mount a political subversion of a state, it requires a very different level and scale of intervention...

And yes, I dont have to refer to Wiki to read about Mitrokhin (or Oleg Kalugin) - prefer the primary sources anyday...

Naom Chomsky is the indefatigable chronicler of US covert ops over the year..Even his accounts dont have anything material to say about India! Neither do Moynihan nd Kissinger - from the opposite side of the spectrum...Mybe IG deduced the same conclusions that you are Achrya-ji, from conspiracy theories!! :) But no, I think she was too smart for that...It was pure and simply cynical power preservation tactics...

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2011 10:37

Sorry not sufficient

GuruPrabhu
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 11 Jan 2011 10:53

Acharya wrote:Sorry not sufficient


Brilliant Saar 8)

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Sanatanan » 11 Jan 2011 19:52

My apologies for the delay in putting up this post. In the context of the discussion on the need for India to import reprocessing technology as a part of the nuclear deal --
somnath wrote:One, American reprocessing technology would be a few decades ahead of India on reprocessing...After all, they have been at it for a much longer period, and spent a significant amount more...But American reprocessing tech wasnt the "cornerstone" of the nuke deal at all, coming out of the nuclear winter was..People forget that Tarapur survived on a decade-by-decade basis (for fuel)...Last time around, the Russians supplied the necessary metal..Nuke power plants were operating @ sub-optimal capacities due to the same reason, lack of enough domestic capacity to mine and process uranium...With the nuke deal, every single ounce of domestic uranium can be devoted to the "strategic" sector, while the power plants can be run on imported fuel..And the same imported fuel from the unsafeguarded reactors can be further reprocessed for strategic purposes - the options have just multiplied now...

About the last point on "right" of reprocessing, well, that is correct, we dont have the right...But we havent cared about it..We have anyway gone ahead and reprocessed the fuel from Tarapur, and that is what was used in Pok-I! In fact that was the major reason why sanctions were imposed by the US after Pok-I....

After wading through my none-too-well-organised archives, I have culled an alternative perspective, to the one quoted above, as follows:

1. As a result of a law passed by the US Congress some time in 1978, commercial reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel had been banned in the US. This ban is effective even as of now. In fact, I believe that, in the 1980's US had cited this law to deny India the permission to reprocess Spent fuel from TAPS 1 & 2 even though the then (1963) Indo-US 123 Agreement for Tarapur 1 & 2 envisaged possibility of India undertaking reprocessing of the Tarapur 1 &2 spent fuel in India, to recover reactor usable Pu. (My understanding is that in view of unacceptable quantities of isotopes such as Pu 240, Pu 241, and Pu 242 in the reprocessed fuel from the LWRs, it would not have been suitable for use in the PNE of POK 1).

2. From Processing of Used Nuclear Fuel (Updated 21 October 2010)
. . .
In the USA, no civil reprocessing plants are now operating, though three have been built. The first, a 300 t/yr plant at West Valley, New York, was operated successfully from 1966-72. However, escalating regulation required plant modifications which were deemed uneconomic, and the plant was shut down. The second was a 300 t/yr plant built at Morris, Illinois, incorporating new technology which, although proven on a pilot-scale, failed to work successfully in the production plant. It was declared inoperable in 1974. The third was a 1500 t/yr plant at Barnwell, South Carolina, which was aborted due to a 1977 change in government policy which ruled out all US civilian reprocessing as one facet of US non-proliferation policy. In all, the USA has over 250 plant-years of reprocessing operational experience, the vast majority being at government-operated defence plants since the 1940s.
. . .

India has a 100 t/yr oxide fuel plant operating at Tarapur with others at Kalpakkam and Trombay, and Japan is starting up a major (800 t/yr) plant at Rokkasho while having had most of its used fuel reprocessed in Europe meanwhile. It has a small (90 t/yr) reprocessing plant operating at Tokai Mura. Russia has a 400 t/yr oxide fuel reprocessing plant at Ozersk (Chelyabinsk).

. . .

Some time in 2005 / 2006, the Bush Administration proposed development of GNEP which envisaged spent fuel reprocessing by the US. However, subsequently the Obama Administration, I believe, has nixed this initiative.

3. Also from the above link
World commercial reprocessing capacity (tonnes per year)

Code: Select all

LWR fuel:
France, La Hague        1700
UK, Sellafield (THORP)   900
Russia, Ozersk (Mayak)   400
Japan (Rokkasho)         800
Total (approx)          3800
Other nuclear fuels:
UK, Sellafield (Magnox) 1500
India                    275
Total (approx)          1750
Total civil capacity    5550


Note that US is not listed in the above table, as obviously, they do not at the moment have commercial spent fuel reprocessing capacity.

3. What the PM said when inaugurating the 2nd reprocessing plant at Tarapur on 08 Jan 2011:
Calling it a historic occasion, Dr. Singh said: “This is a significant milestone in our country's three-stage indigenous nuclear programme. I heartily congratulate the scientists and engineers who were involved in the design, construction and commissioning of this unique complex and state-of-the-art facility. This is yet another instance that once we make up our mind, India can do anything.”

4. From a report in NYT of 03 Jan 2011 China Ready to Reprocess Nuclear Fuel
Russia, India, Japan and several European countries already reprocess nuclear fuel — the material used to produce energy from nuclear reactors — to separate and recover the unused uranium and plutonium, as well as to reduce waste and safely close the nuclear cycle.

Note that US does not figure in that list of countries currently reprocessing spent nuclear fuel.

5. I recollect that in 2007 / 2008, there were many discussions not only between the Indian and US negotiators, but also in Indian and US media about the inclusion of issues relating to reprocessing in the deal. There were two equally important aspects (1) India's right to reprocess the spent fuel (from Uranium that was to be imported subsequent to the deal) and (2) US to give/transfer reprocessing technologies to India as a part of the deal. The US position was (perhaps continues to be) negative in both cases.

5. 1 Regarding right to reprocess, an article by S. Varadarajan in the Hindu of 03 June, 2007, discussing the progress of the deal at that point of time, has this title and sub-title:
India will stick to 'rights-based' approach on reprocessing
'Without reprocessing, there is nothing'.

5..2 Regarding cooperation in reprocessing technologies, in his statement to Parliament on August 17, 2006, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, clearly enunciated that "full cooperation" (envisaged in the July 18, 2005 Indo-US Agreement with GW Bush) implied technologies related to all aspects of the complete nuclear fuel cycle, thus highlighting his position that spent fuel reprocessing was one of the sought after items in the deal (Reference: http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2412/ ... 011400.htm)

6. Regarding the reprocessing plant that was used to produce Pu for POK 1, I found the following reference (dated October 1997) in the Internet:
Today three reprocessing plants are operated by the Indian Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) with a total design capacity of about 230 metric tons, none of which are safeguarded. The first Indian reprocessing plant at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) at Trombay began operating in 1964 and has processed fuel from the Cirus and Dhruva research reactors. It was decommissioned in 1973 due to excessive corrosion, then refurbished and put back into service in 1982. A total of about 400 kg of plutonium is estimated to have been separated at the small BARC facility, and is reported to have been used in the Indian nuclear weapons program. The plutonium used in the "peaceful nuclear device" exploded in Rasjasthan in 1974 was reprocessed at BARC.
A second reprocessing plant, the Power Reactor Fuel Reprocessing (PREFRE) facility, dedicated to reprocessing CANDU power reactor fuel, was brought into operation at Tarapur in 1982.

7. From the Internet, I found these links to two papers giving some information about the extent of indigenous development that has been achieved in fuel fabrication and spent fuel reprocessing in IGCAR.
7.1 Reprocessing Of Fast Reactor Fuels At Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research Kalpakkam (appears to be dated 2004)
7.2 Fuel Cycle Activities in India (paper presented at INPRO Dialogue Forum, IAEA Vienna in Oct 2010).

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 11 Jan 2011 20:10

^^^ Sanatananji, thats a great deal of research - hats off!

Though one must say that absence of commercial reprocessing is not tantamounting to absence of technology...So the question is not whether US "can" give us or not, it is whetheer they "will"..

There is actually quite a lot of civilian reprocessing capacity globally it seems - sometime back Turkey and Brazil floated this harebrained scheme of repocessing Iranian fuel, as a solution to the issue with Iran....

In our red lines, really US reprocessing tech was not a big factor, the right to reprocess was..And as of now, AFAIK, all our reprocessing facilities are unsafeguarded - and the term isnt even very suggestive :)

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 11 Jan 2011 23:55

As a result of a law passed by the US Congress some time in 1978, commercial reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel had been banned in the US. This ban is effective even as of now.
...

any link?

According to a prof, who once taught " Radioactive Waste Management " Jimmy Carter in 1977 (NOT US Congress) passed an Executive Order ( EO 11982 in April 1977) he thinks someone is misinterpreting that here. It was something to do with "intent to suspend reprocessing of SNF " .. in any case Reagan lifted the "ban" later on...(Clinton had his own EO later on but that's a different story.

Perhaps one is talking about H.R. 8638 (in 1978) "Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act of 1978"
(Which is a law passed by US congress) but, according to him, it had nothing to do with commercial reprocessing of fuel in the US, ...it was a withdrawal of federal support for reprocessing that stopped it. Then later Reagan did lift the ban..I did not read the text of the act (neither time, nor interest) but may be someone can read the text.

One good reference for US Policy for SNF is:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/rossin.html
From above, wrt to above:
3. THE CARTER POLICY

On April 7, 1977, President Jimmy Carter announced that the United States would defer indefinitely the reprocessing of spent nuclear reactor fuel. He stated that after extensive examination of the issues, he had reached the conclusion that this action was necessary to reduce the serious threat of nuclear weapons proliferation, and that by setting this example, the U. S. would encourage other nations to follow its lead.

President Carter's Executive Order also announced that the U. S. would sponsor an international examination of alternative fuel cycles, seeking to identify approaches which would allow nuclear power to continue without adding to the risk of nuclear proliferation. More than thirty nations participated over almost three years. But no new magic answer could be found.


Princeton.edu site has this summary:
The reassessment initiated by the Ford administration was completed by the Carter administration, which decided in 1977 against licensing for operation a newly built U.S. commercial reprocessing plant. The U.S. nuclear-energy establishment complained bitterly, and the Reagan administration reversed this policy after it came into office in 1981. By then, however, because of the adverse economics, there was no longer any industrial interest in reprocessing in the United States. In 1993, the Clinton administration reinstated U.S. opposition to reprocessing


What they say that is is more economical reasons rather than political reasons... as in: (for USA):

Storage of spent fuel is cheaper, safer, and more environmentally benign than reprocessing









.

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby Gerard » 12 Jan 2011 04:41

Note that US is not listed in the above table, as obviously, they do not at the moment have commercial spent fuel reprocessing capacity.


I suspect the Savannah River Site has plutonium reprocessing capacity that would put most commercial plants to shame

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby somnath » 12 Jan 2011 08:21

Gerard wrote:I suspect the Savannah River Site has plutonium reprocessing capacity that would put most commercial plants to shame


It is a fact that a lot of people have opined that stroing the waste is environmentally a more benign way of disposal than reprocessing...Absence of civil reprocessing capacity in the US only means that all reprocessing there is dedicated to a single purpose! :twisted: Though I would wonder why, given START III and everything else, I would think that the US would be sitting on LOTS of spare capacity....

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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Jan 2011 11:24

somnath wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:Kaul said this. Right? Why is this an unfair demand


Abhishek, that was the fundamental problem with the approach...The inability to grasp opportunities with the West because of lofty notions of international fair play..During the nuke deal, we didnt wait for an international endorsement of our status - we just went ahead and did a deal with the only power who could deliver..Rest of the world followed...



Seeking equality is hardly a lofty notion. It is the least we can do.

Secondly, in the Hindu article posted above, Kissinger said: "We are not going to ask India to do anything that we are not prepared to do ourselves;". So even Kissinger accepts the importance of symmetry in international relations. (Caveat: see point 4). If a third country wasn't ready to cooperate, we are hardly responsible for it.

Thirdly, if we want to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, a consensus is absolutely necessary. Even a few bad actors can ruin the whole effort (e.g., A. Q. Khan and his group).

Fourthly, nations often lie and prevaricate. For example, Pakis say they want friendly relations with India. Americans claim to support human rights and democracy. Therefore, Kissinger's statements (about India's nuclear programme) should be taken with a pinch of salt. Their actions provide better evidence. In the case of Nixon/Kissinger, very few people believe they had any goodwill for India.


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