LCA News and Discussions

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Jan 2011 01:58

Team-LCA, The nation is proud of you.

Jai Hind!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Jan 2011 02:02

from hindu
Tejas gets Initial Operational Clearance

On the indigenous Kaveri engine, Dr. Saraswat said the Flight Bed Trials were successfully completed in Russia, and the tie-up with France to develop it further would take three to five years.

astal · Post by **astal** » 11 Jan 2011 02:34

rahuldevnath wrote:http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TN ... directlink

Superb photo.

Here is another one that describes the situation aptly.

Tejas is on the verge of takeoff. It needs some more work to touch the sky. The Tejas team has already achieved a lot, but their best is still to come.

ACM Naik, has his own perspective and we understand that he wants a capable fighter. I would have preferred something on the following lines.

"I welcome Tejas to the IAF team. As the youngest addition to our illustrious group, you have a lot to learn. As a part of our team, from today onwards you will get what you need to ensure your growth into a capable and useful aircraft. We will work together with the ADA and HAL to make Tejas live up to her potential.

As I am sure you are aware, the Tejas team cannot rest at this point. A lot remains to be done for FOC and further."

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jan 2011 02:39

Tejas flies, but IAF dithers

...
....
But immediately after receiving the certificate, Naik said: “Tejas is not yet a fourth generation aircraft. It can of course come up to that level given the technology, but it needs more work,” an indication that the programme’s ambitious schedule and technological challenges were raising concerns, especially for the IAF.

Surprisingly, even as Naik was in full flow in exposing the project’s shortcomings, neither Antony nor team Tejas countered him, adding authenticity to the IAF chief’s assessment.
...
...
“There are problems with the wake penetration (testing ability to cope with turbulence), all-weather clearance, lightning clearance among others and they (team Tejas) should be able to correct it by June,” Naik said.

In this context, it is noteworthy that a low intensity blast, on December 30, 2010, had occurred during a lightning rod testing for Tejas.

The aircraft has part compliance in all these matters, but the IAF is firm on a 100 per cent compliance before induction.
...
...
Responding to a query on whether the aircraft, which was being developed to replace the aging MiG-21s, was good, he said: “Having checked and compared the endurance, performance, load carrying capacity, weapons delivering ability, accuracy, avionics and the radars, I think it is a MiG-21++.”

Appreciating the team he said that projects of such magnitude were always difficult to execute and the IOC was, after having read and heard about Tejas for over two decades, “a dream come true. The untiring efforts need to be complimented.”
...
...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Jan 2011 02:54

self deleted

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Jan 2011 03:04

Well i am pretty confident of repeat orders for tejas mk1 beyond the 40 in the kitty. If Akash deal is any precedent, i think our forces are shy of ordering a big numbers in one go. If tejas reaches FOC faster or even in time(by 2012), the IAF would be having a good aircraft in one hand and on the other it would have aircrafts like mig27,21 which are reaching the end of their service lives. With greater airframe stress related problems and paucity of spares and no upgrade potential for the 21/27 the chief would definitely go for mk1 as replacements if HAL build quality is good. The tejas can easily outperform the 21 in point defence and the 27 in ground attack. But the ACM is probably not sure of the build quality by HAL, nor of the maintenance/logistic chain and of course also owing to past slippages in deadlines is shy of giving all orders in one shot. Hope this is the case

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 11 Jan 2011 03:07

I am actually surprised by the amount of criticism the IOC has generated.
There are talks of cost overruns of 3000% - how can these guys compare 1985 figures to 2010 figure? Even the onions have seen inflation to the tune of 400% within a year (from Rs 20 a kg to Rs 80 now).
There is also a criticism that Tejas program will require "another 25,000 crore" - isn't it better to invest the money in our own country to develop indigenous capability rather than giving it away to a foreign nation.

The standards of journalism have gone to the dogs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2011 03:10

kamaaan, all these are well anticipated ones from para-chute pandit to firang is supreme thoughts. let us focus on the non ddm aspects.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 11 Jan 2011 03:20

SanjibGhosh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZhpvRVbYec

Ak-47 .... see our reporters ... it is at around 2:39....

How can I get last 6 minutes and 50 seconds of my life back? I am having a headache.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Jan 2011 03:22

Please refrain from posting/refering Rajat Pandit's articles. He just recycles his old articles every few months. DDM.

Likes of him should not be discussed on this board.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Jan 2011 04:24

astal wrote:

Tejas is on the verge of takeoff. It needs some more work to touch the sky. The Tejas team has already achieved a lot, but their best is still to come.

Did you see the height of that wheelie? And one wheel was off the ground!! Going by chinese posters in J20 discussions, that is like... FOC in Chengdu.

Surya-saar, there was a Chacko-saar link that says Air Chief clarified, but yeah, I wish he hadnt behaved like that pouty uncle (every family is saddled with) who felt like grabbing some attention during this auspicious event....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jan 2011 05:36

^^^You think the ACM needs this function to grab attention?

As for his comments, has anyone bothered to check to what question those comments were made? And everyone here is relying on Shiv Aroor's interpretation of AMC Naik's mood?

What if the simple question had been asked, something like this: "What are the areas in which Tejas project needs more work?"

Now read his answer:

Code: Select all

"There are some areas where work still needs to be done. There are aspects that need to be improved. We have agreed to a list of concessions for IOC. But we are sure that ADA will fulfil those by June, with full operational clearance in a couple of years. The refinements we are looking for include wake penetration tests, all weather clearance, lightning clearance, etc. Some parameters have only been partly tested. After all, we've waited a long time for the Tejas. We don't want a partial platform. We want everything fully operational," he said.

Let us not ascribe motives where non exist.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jan 2011 05:40

Marten wrote:Congratulations to the Tejas team. All at ADA, DARE, and the dozens of teams across smaller units, take a bow. Your hard work and sweat/tears are appreciated.

[Flame]Dear ACM: Stop playing the fool. Please show some happiness at a home-grown success. It will not stop you from hankering for more of the best. I for one will be glad when you and Philiposky retire from public service in all forms.
[/Flame]

That comments Sir, is in very bad taste. To equate ACM with fellow poster on BRF and ascribe motives/intentions/preferences without knowing anything about the said officer is plain stupid, in addition to being incongrous.

The ACM does not need to adhere to BRF defined behaviour to prove his worth or anything for that matter of fact.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2011 06:16

Let me shift into pisko gear for a bit. We all grow up being informed that people are all the same. Oh yes they are. But we are also told that some people have unique characteristics. The Japanese are industrious. The Germans are efficient. The Arabs are #@% etc. It is important for us to see ourselves also as a people with some unique characteristics. Indians are not given to lying for psyops.

If you look around you find that he F-35 has a radar signature that is less than coin sized. The J-20 is equal to the F-22 and has flown in secret - in any case a flight is the same as nosewheel in the air, and the JF-17 is Pakistani 4.5 generation technology in production. In Pakistan. All these aircraft are products of 100% American, Chinese or Pakistan technology. No inputs. No delays. No flaws. No drawbacks. Nothing to criticise.

But India?

The Tejas is 30 years late. (Conceived in 1983)
Rs 3000 crores over budget
Is still not Indian because it has a foreign engine
It is not yet 4th generation
It is Mig 21++
It has a long way to go
Production rate will be slow
It is the first ever supersonic combat aircraft made in India

It is better to get used to this. This is how Indians talk and behave. We accuse ourselves and our own kind of being imperfect. We selectively pick up imperfections lest talk of any goodness blinds us to harsh realities. We accuse people of being reactive, and yet at every crisis we demand a reaction. This is us. From PM/DM/ACM/DDM down to BRFite. We need to accept ourselves as we are. We have to mould the rest of the world to cut their bullshitting even as we constantly self criticise, self flagellate and attempt to conquer our own minds before we conquer anything else..

disha · Post by **disha** » 11 Jan 2011 06:29

Saar, there is a difference between self-criticism, self-reflection and self-flagellation.

Do as much of self-criticism and self-reflection as possible. But be mindful that self-criticism does not turn to self-flagellation that leads to dissuasion. Getting dissuaded means half the battle lost. Particularly if done in public.

In our zest for self-criticism, we forget that we are doing a disservice by not following the dictum (applies in context of an individual): Praise for the journey completed publicly, point out many miles to go in an informed forum and criticize the person offering constructive suggestions in private.

In Hindi there is a dictum - "neecha mat dekhao"., that is do not make the other feel downtrodden.

Also, do criticize others. Point out how silly J-20 is and how delayed other programs are. Nobody is stopping that.

I have been following LCA since its inception, missed the opportunity to join them because of "it cannot be done" dissuasion and am very proud to see it in IOC., but yes more miles to cross and much work to do.

Anyway, if you can rent a movie, check this out "Albert Pinto ko gussa kyon aata hai". I think it is a classic.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 11 Jan 2011 06:37

Video a must watch. Baar baar dekho, hazaar baar dekho, yeh dekhne ke cheez hai..
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/p ... video.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2011 06:45

disha wrote:Saar, there is a difference between self-criticism, self-reflection and self-flagellation.

This is true - but one man's self reflection is another man's self flagellation. Individual personality differences create these differences. As a people we tend towards "self-xxxx". And we are cautioned against self-delusion and constantly asked to question for truth. This is as Indic as it gets. Add to this the externally imposed idea that if it is Indic it is wrong and that what others have imposed is correct.

Totally OT for this thread, but if you follow Indic standards of self-correction and the quest for truth 100% - there will be no such thing as psy-ops. It reflects in our ethos.

No more from me on this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2011 06:46

uddu wrote:Video a must watch. Baar baar dekho, hazaar baar dekho, yeh dekhne ke cheez hai..
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/p ... video.html

How to download saar? Is it on Youtube also?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Jan 2011 06:56

shiv wrote: attempt to conquer our own minds before we conquer anything else..

Shiv saar, as usual

Nice song.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2011 06:57

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JuFDHWDX8w
here you go saar!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Jan 2011 07:04

shiv wrote:
uddu wrote:Video a must watch. Baar baar dekho, hazaar baar dekho, yeh dekhne ke cheez hai..
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/p ... video.html
How to download saar? Is it on Youtube also?

here you go.
http://ifile.it/gomciaj/Tarmak007%20--% ... %20ADA.flv

use orbit downloader for any flv file.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2011 07:13

/OT, but relevant as a subsequent thought..
why not take it this way:-
I love my India, therefore I criticize

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 11 Jan 2011 07:27

Congrats to ADA, HAL, DRDO, NAL and everyone who are part of LCA project

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 11 Jan 2011 07:32

We have passed on stage with flying colours, Now its time to discuss about FOC & upgradation,
please open a new thread for LCA Mk2 not continue with this thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2011 08:25

The Hindu wrote:The single-engine LCA is estimated to cost between Rs.180-200 crore apiece, with an additional Rs.10 crore for the trainer version with the second seat. Announcing this, HAL chairman Ashok Nayak said it had a production line-capacity to manufacture up to 10 aircraft a year.

that is like $44m per piece.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Jan 2011 08:44

rohitvats wrote:^^^You think the ACM needs this function to grab attention?[/code]

Let us not ascribe motives where non exist.

saar, it is not what "I think". He grabbed the attention allright.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 11 Jan 2011 08:47

Poorly paid, but test pilots love their job

The pilots said they are paid as per the Sixth Pay Commission, which is better than their prior pay package, but is still way below commercial salaries. If a young defence pilot earns around Rs 25,000-Rs 40,000 depending on grade, and a senior pilot earns around Rs 1 lakh and more, a commercial pilot gets Rs 2-Rs 5 lakh, and in some cases, even Rs 10 lakh — this despite the fact that the skills of an Air Force test pilot are as good, as if not superior.

Myself doesn't think salary for military and airline pilots will be ever same or even come close. Fundamentally military and commercial have different purpose. Commercial airlines are solely for profits.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2011 08:48

the stagnant looking HAL museum could show some enterprise and make a good sale of Dhruv, IJT , LCH, WSI-Dhruv and Tejas diecast aluminium models beautifully painted in IAF livery. make two models one small and one platinum for the hardcore enthusiasts. I wouldnt mind shelling out a few 1000 for the platinum version. AI2011 could have been a good place to make a strong start, open some small counter in forum mall or garuda mall maybe. make cheaper smaller models for kids....my kid has m2k, f16 and b2 models...why cant be enjoy things built for his own land? tie up with chennapatna wooden doll makers to make wooden models of Arjun! .. so something anything...

instead they sell plastic retail a.c like available in the neighbourhood shops in jayanagar!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Jan 2011 09:43

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JuFDHWDX8w
here you go saar!

aaawesome.... CMDS, HMDS and MMR all shown for the first time in action.

If only I can get a pic of LCA flying over Himalayas

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2011 09:46

I have been constantly seeing ADA showing Tejas with conformal tanks.

or the recent pic at Livefist

Is it in the plans? Would be awesome

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 11 Jan 2011 10:23

Gaurav_S wrote:Myself doesn't think salary for military and airline pilots will be ever same or even come close. Fundamentally military and commercial have different purpose. Commercial airlines are solely for profits.

Commercial pilot salaries in India are out of whack since they top salaries obtained even in the US airline industry where the entry level salary is ~$24,000/year. The government could bring them down by opening up the workforce to some competition. If they weren't that out of whack, military salaries would look quite reasonable. Or just wait 10 years, and the free market will do the job just as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Jan 2011 10:47

babbupandey wrote:I am actually surprised by the amount of criticism the IOC has generated.
There are talks of cost overruns of 3000% - how can these guys compare 1985 figures to 2010 figure? Even the onions have seen inflation to the tune of 400% within a year (from Rs 20 a kg to Rs 80 now).
There is also a criticism that Tejas program will require "another 25,000 crore" - isn't it better to invest the money in our own country to develop indigenous capability rather than giving it away to a foreign nation.

The standards of journalism have gone to the dogs.

Boss, lets understand reality, many of the import purchases involves agency commission which virtually disappears in DRDO products. Many of these agents appoint journalists, so it is a case of bread and butter disappearing and you are not expecting them to howl?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2011 10:59

Frontline interview with
Dr. V.K. Saraswat

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2011 11:04

I have sometimes felt apathy after reading some news. I have never felt rage till I read this one.

Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony

Really, till what level can one stoop?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Jan 2011 11:05

rohitvats wrote: What if the simple question had been asked, something like this: "What are the areas in which Tejas project needs more work?"

Even if one tries to ignore the negatives and educate the mind to see in positive framework, poor monkey mind can't resist comparing & differentiating the statements from IN and IAF.

It sees by comparison which one is in good tone & encouragingly supportive, and which one is not that way and raises the abusive questions like "why such difference and which one is better"

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jan 2011 11:08

Its not conformal fuel tank. its an artist impression. The particular area has been depicted bit prominently. otherwise, the particular feature must be too hard to depict. It it looks cute that way.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Jan 2011 11:14

indranilroy wrote:I have sometimes felt apathy after reading some news. I have never felt rage till I read this one.

Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony

Really, till what level can one stoop?

This piehole just repeated the same article again. How many time he can write the same article with different headings? Only the first paragraph is changed, rest is still the same.

Whats the point in even discussing his articles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2011 11:17

Now that IOC is over what do we expect by FOC?

From Saraswat interview in Frontline he expects new weapons etc.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 11 Jan 2011 11:18

The negative press is all DDM or motivated. No point in wasting the bandwidth discussing them. Most are either simply too $$ motivated or dumb to understand the significance of Tejas IOC.

It heralds the starting of military aviation in India maturing which can and will become the launch pad for a host of other state-of-the-art products in future.

By the time FOC is achieved, Tejas will be superior to most of the types in the IAF fleet now and MKII will be comparable to the Gripen - current MMRCA contender.

The ACM may be not so enthusiastic because of the delays leading to plummeting numbers. That perhaps could have been voiced in a very different but positive manner. By all means, it is a wonderful achievement and I would say now the onus is again on ADA/HAL to get FOC in time and gain the confidence of IAF. FOC is going to be the next critical thing now.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2011 11:25

Sid wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I have sometimes felt apathy after reading some news. I have never felt rage till I read this one.

Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony

Really, till what level can one stoop?
This piehole just repeated the same article again. How many time he can write the same article with different headings? Only the first paragraph is changed, rest is still the same.

Whats the point in even discussing his articles.

I was just wondering what can we do to negate the negative impact that "reports" like this do. What could be an equally loud platform to voice our opinion?