Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2011 13:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxO1cho9 ... re=related

what a lovely ad for the Dingo family of mine protected vehicle from Krauss Maffei...really tugs at your heartstrings it does..the mummy, the kid, the lovely tree lined road, the cute australian "dingo" brought back from the wild.....for once its not about raw firepower demo and a bunch of wild eyed rogue warriors shooting things up....

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 15 Jan 2011 14:55

Rajan Mahan Report on NDTV about performance of T-90s

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... ank/187856

I'm finding this a very very suspicious conduct... Call it SDRE Dhoti Shivers if you will, but I'm mighty worried.

Why the sudden need to stress on the capability to fire on the move, NV capabilities and ATM firing capabilities of T - 90???

The video almost looks like a fan boy work. (holding back the insinuation of being a planted one) . Its almost like the Empire strikes back after lying low for quite some time post the comparative trials.

My over excited paranoid conspiracy smelling Yindoo brain is thinking that this wind is not blowing in the right direction for the future of Arjun.

I hope I'm just imagining things.... Hope I'm wrong

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 15 Jan 2011 15:08

anirban_aim wrote:Rajan Mahan Report on NDTV about performance of T-90s

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... ank/187856

I'm finding this a very very suspicious conduct... Call it SDRE Dhoti Shivers if you will, but I'm mighty worried.

Why the sudden need to stress on the capability to fire on the move, NV capabilities and ATM firing capabilities of T - 90???

The video almost looks like a fan boy work. (holding back the insinuation of being a planted one) . Its almost like the Empire strikes back after lying low for quite some time post the comparative trials.

My over excited paranoid conspiracy smelling Yindoo brain is thinking that this wind is not blowing in the right direction for the future of Arjun.

I hope I'm just imagining things.... Hope I'm wrong

You are not paranoid my friend, you are actually quite smart that you were able to smell the video as a morale booster for the general populace who followed the Arjun vs. T90 trials. Since Arjun was its own class of excellence, the T90's results against it did not fair well. So any person with a brain that can ponder with some logic would have said: "why another 1000 subpar t90's then? why not another 1000 Arjun."

I wouldn't be surprised if MOD had issued this as a morale booster for the general populace and the soldiers for the Russian Beauties.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jan 2011 15:10

or lol maybe another lot of 124 is in talks...with corresponding downsizing of planned t90 number.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 15 Jan 2011 15:15

^^^^^

Hehehehe Won't that be great now!!!!!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 15 Jan 2011 20:25

Philip wrote:Delighted to see in the "F" mag that my suggestions are exactly along the IA's lines regarding "light tanks" in the high-alt/mountains,deserts/swampy terrain,etc.The IA apparently wants 200 wheeled light tanks and 100 tracked tanks of between 16-28t,which can be easilty transported to high-alt areas like "Ladakh and the N-East by road or air",and has put out an RFI to 4 western manufacturers (Centauro 8X8/120mm smoothbore cannon,Panndur 8X8 with 105mm canon,Gen-Dynam 1128 Stryker with a 105mm cannon,BAe CV90-120mm canon).They are being looked at with "utmost seriousness"!

I really hope that never materializes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jan 2011 11:44

anirban_aim wrote:Rajan Mahan Report on NDTV about performance of T-90s

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... ank/187856

Great Video , Its nice to see credit given where its due.

I just hope they do not continue lic manufacturing the old T-90A at Avadi but move to the new T-90M with upgrades in communication , BMS ,indigenous ERA and the the new turret rear autoloader with long rod sabot will make the Bishma more lethal and safer for the crews.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 17 Jan 2011 14:17

Arjun MkII summer tests

The Arjun MkII will have about a dozen changes from the first lot, being armed with missile firing capability through a laser homing device.

Though the missile system had been tested on the MkI version of the tank about five years ago, it did not form part of the final design of the initial 124 delivered to the army, and nor will it be mounted on the second lot of 124, ministry officials said.

The system, they said, would have a range of about eight kms, within which it could destroy enemy tanks after homing on to the target using a laser.

Other modifications include better explosive-reactive armour for the tank to protect it from enemy missiles and rockets, improving the sighting facility to provide it a wider view of the battlefield, including night vision capability, and a better communication system.

nash · Post by **nash** » 17 Jan 2011 14:57

Great begining of this year after IOC and now this one.

Wish them luck for successfull trials and seem like we cross the threshold of the Arjun and from now we can see this warrior will become more deadlier than before,at much faster pace.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 17 Jan 2011 15:25

If I am reading it right, Does the article indicates another lot of enhanced MKII inaddition to two lots of 124 each??

Cheers....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2011 15:34

he he he...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2011 16:13

anirban_aim wrote:Rajan Mahan Report on NDTV about performance of T-90s

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... ank/187856

I'm finding this a very very suspicious conduct... Call it SDRE Dhoti Shivers if you will, but I'm mighty worried.

Why the sudden need to stress on the capability to fire on the move, NV capabilities and ATM firing capabilities of T - 90???

The video almost looks like a fan boy work. (holding back the insinuation of being a planted one) . Its almost like the Empire strikes back after lying low for quite some time post the comparative trials.

My over excited paranoid conspiracy smelling Yindoo brain is thinking that this wind is not blowing in the right direction for the future of Arjun.

I hope I'm just imagining things.... Hope I'm wrong

Looks like a propaganda video, with a fair bit of context and nuance, given Army officer says "in the night the thermal imager is first class" or something like that...since thermal imager is actually meant to be used both in daytime & nightime, and is the standard optics for engagement.

And given that the problems are continuing to plague the T-90. Story from late 2010, which ties in with several other reports over the past three years of the T-90s issues continuing.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... efence.asp

The Indian Army has detected flaws with the thermal imaging system of the Russian-built T-90 main battle tanks (MBTs), inducted in its fleet three years ago, causing an estimated loss of Rs 620 crore.

Rechristened as ‘Bhishma,’ T-90s’ flaw came to light during its comparative trials with the indigenous MBT Arjun during peak summers in the Thar Desert of Rajasthan.

According to the report submitted by the Indian Army, the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera giving T-90s its night vision capability and higher precision is not “adequately tropicalised.” It simply cannot function in the extreme condition for which it was supposed to function. Because of this the thermal imaging camera is prone to malfunction in extreme temperature conditions of Rajasthan, where it is deployed.

“During the trials it was observed that the temperatures inside the tank goes up to 55-60 degree Celsius resulting in the blurring of images taken by the camera,” a senior Indian Army officer told Financial World on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to media.

This is not a new problem and that the Army is going ahead with procurement despite this significant flaw, just shows the different yardstick applied for Russian, read T-90 equipment versus domestic. Its also a sad testimony to how flawed Army procurement system is.

Basically, the thermal imagers keep getting unserviceable, and the Army is replacing them at own cost.

The report describes the thermal imaging cameras as the ‘eyes’ of the tank. While the tank costs around Rs 12 crore, each of these systems cost (including) Rs 2 crore. Prolonged use of the tank in extreme weather conditions has already rendered 80-90 of such systems “unserviceable.”

The Indian Army is deliberating to get a locally effective air conditioning system for the thermal imaging camera. However, nothing concrete has happened on this front.

Under the contract, Russia was to complete transfer of technology to India for indigenous manufacturing of 1,000 T-90s at HVF by 2006. However, following chronic delay in technology transfer the first indigenous T-90 tank rolled out of the factory only in 2010.

Earlier, lack of cooling systems inside the tank led to uninhabitable temperatures of 60 degree Celsius. This made the Indian Army scout for an air conditioning system for the tank. The fire control systems of T-90s also suffered malfunctions on various occasion.

Posted on November 17, 2010

This deal is a massive ripoff of the Indian taxpayer. Its one thing for any newly inducted system to have teething problems. But its been ten years since the T-90 contract was signed and what did we see?

- Continued problems with Thermal imager
- Heat issues within the tank (T- tank being more cramped makes it even harder)
- Technology transfer being denied to India (reference reports of both base armor and ERA being replaced by Indian jugaad from Arjun technology)
- Technology which is still behind that of state of the art
- Downplaying/hiding reports of technical problems with firecontrol system, engine failures
- No success in terms of rectifying basic design issues of limited space, overheating electronics, cramped heat heavy environment by fixing jury rigged airconditioners or the like

In a decades time, Arjun went from successful prototype to successful series produced tank. T-90 sold to India as mature, ready design in 2001, is still partly, not fully functional.

Finally, Tank gets comprehensively beaten by Arjun in trials, and is yet procured in number while Arjun is made to jump through hoops via MK-2 version.

Really, the entire T-90 deal needs to be re-examined, both for how and why such a boondoggle is continued and why even now, problems are not rectified and brushed under the carpet.

The tank may be still useful against the likes of Pakistan but as a procurement, it has severe flaws and exposes systemic weaknesses in army procurement. I do not know whether Gen VK Singh can clean the Augean stables but a cleaning is overdue. To begin with, the role of a certain person who led an anti-Arjun campaign, whilst pushing for the T-90 using each and every trick, and continues to do so, needs to be examined. Public reports clearly indicate a disturbing pattern.

Even Arjun apart, the T-90 case just backs up the observations of the Auditors on how shoddy the Army's performance vis a vis formulating requirements and then ensuring procured equipment met them, was.

The sensible thing to do would be to cap this T-90 production till each and every defect is ironed out, upgrade the newest T-72s and build up Arjun production. In the meantime, firmly examine who procured the T-90, why is it still being pushed for and what lessons can be learned.

These are not minor issues. These directly reflect on how pathetic the original T-90 design is, in several respects, with severely limited growth potential & inability to add more complex electronics to the existing tank. The Russians never really took into account any growth requirements regarding electronics (which require ventilation, power and generate heat) as well as future ammunition. Only focus was higher power engine, more armor, improved fire control. Basically, souped up T-72, given T-90 name for marketing after disastrous performance of T-72 in Gulf War.

As such, now, they are redesigning the turret to include all these items & passing it off as T-90 new variant1, T-90 new variant 2. But countries like India, which do not have access to original design data are totally dependent on Russia for even minor changes. A Nice trick! When India wanted to add own ammo to T-90, Russians refused to hand over Ballistic Computer codes for modification! So India then approaches local firms to jury-rig solution!

These problems are only going to continue, and this is the tip of iceberg. As India wants to add more radios, more electronics to the tank - in many ways Indian solutions are more extensive than Russian requirement in terms of bandwidth, then we will have more heat issues, more problems. There is no guarantee either, that the problem can be solved by Russia without significant redesign. Even a simple thermal imager issue is still persisting ten years after procurement.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 18 Jan 2011 17:42

good news for arjun jingos

Arjun Mark II ready for summer and winter trials this year

Within a year of the government approving a project for an upgraded indigenous main battle tank (MBT), India’s defence research agency has readied a Mark II version that will undergo summer and winter trials this year.The defence ministry had last May given its nod to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop the Arjun MkII MBT which would have enhanced features over the first lot of 124 tanks that have been delivered to the army over the last two years.

‘The Arjun MkII tanks will go for summer trials this year and later for winter trials at the end of 2011,’ a defence ministry official said here Monday.

The army is already operating two regiments of Arjun tanks in the western sector and has placed an order for an additional 124 – two regiments – of the 58-tonne tanks from the Avadi-based manufacturer, Heavy Vehicles Factory.

The army gained confidence in operating the Arjun tanks, despite the initial hesitation, after the first two regiments were pitted against the Russian-built T-90 MBTs early last year in comparative trials in the desert terrain.

The Arjuns, army officers said, had outsmarted the T-90s in all the parameters set for the trials and had prompted the army top brass to admit that the tank was one of the best they had operated.

The Arjun MkII will have about a dozen changes from the first lot, being armed with missile firing capability through a laser homing device.

Though the missile system had been tested on the MkI version of the tank about five years ago, it did not form part of the final design of the initial 124 delivered to the army, and nor will it be mounted on the second lot of 124, ministry officials said.

The system, they said, would have a range of about eight kms, within which it could destroy enemy tanks after homing on to the target using a laser.

Other modifications include better explosive-reactive armour for the tank to protect it from enemy missiles and rockets, improving the sighting facility to provide it a wider view of the battlefield, including night vision capability, and a better communication system.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Jan 2011 23:02

I agree with Sanku. BRF needs a lungi dance icon. My first thought on reading that ^^^ was - ALREADY!!! Proves what most folks have been saying about Arjun now being a mature platform and an ideal base for all 'futuristic' tanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2011 23:03

inshallah it shall rip the T90 (another) new one!

imo T90 production should be capped at 500. not 2000 by any means.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jan 2011 23:50

Singha wrote: imo T90 production should be capped at 500. not 2000 by any means.

GOI plan for the longest time (since 2001) has been 3000 each of the two MBTs. They have said that is what they would like to see its on record.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Jan 2011 23:57

Only they would like to order 124 Arjuns every 10 years to reach their goal speedily!!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Jan 2011 00:01

Vivek K wrote:Only they would like to order 124 Arjuns every 10 years to reach their goal speedily!!

There is reason to believe that at the very minimum 50 a year will be ordered, now that the line is finally able to get the kinks out. But even that would probably be stepped up.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Jan 2011 00:05

Come on Sanku, production lines are set up with investment. Investment requires GOI approval. And production lines are scaled to total nos to be produced. You would not setup a 100 tank per annum production facility for an order for 124 tanks, would you? Blame the production facility all you want but that is scaled to meet the current size of orders.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Jan 2011 00:09

Its already a 50 tank line. It will be made into a 100 tank line now that the production process is sorted out.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jan 2011 02:46

Sanku wrote:Its already a 50 tank line. It will be made into a 100 tank line now that the production process is sorted out.

For a batch of 124 units order, production capacity of 50 units a year is sufficient, which means fulfillment of the order within 2.5 years.

Now if the IA were to order much larger quantities, such as 248 units per batch, then production capacity can be increased to 100 units/year if the IA still wants all of the delivery to occur within 2.5 years timeframe (and commits to subsequent orders of similar quantities). But if the IA wants these over 5 years, then 50 units/year is still sufficient. Production rate/capacity just does not increase ... unless it is justified with orders of sufficient quantities and to be delivered within a given timeline.

You also have to factor in investment and its return. You can't invest in overcapacity when the IA has not really committed to much larger quantities as it has with the T-90 (1,000 units to be assembled/manufactured locally). I am sure if the IA committed to 1,000 Arjun then we will see the production capacity greatly increased. Otherwise, what are you going to do with all that extra capacity (infrastructure, machinery, part suppliers, trained staff, etc) after fulfilling an order for 124 units within 1.25 years (or 15 months)?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Jan 2011 04:14

sameer_shelavale wrote:good news for arjun jingos
Arjun Mark II ready for summer and winter trials this year
Within a year of the government approving a project for an upgraded indigenous main battle tank (MBT), India’s defence research agency has readied a Mark II version that will undergo summer and winter trials this year.The defence ministry had last May given its nod to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop the Arjun MkII MBT which would have enhanced features over the first lot of 124 tanks that have been delivered to the army over the last two years.

snip.

This is brilliant news, I would say its quite impressive how quickly they have turned up with the MKII. I wonder if they will do a head to head comparo with the T 90 based on the MK II

Btw the article mentions that there will be missile firing capability of about 8kms thats quite astonishing. I am guessing that this is still the Lahat round that was succesfully tried out.
However the 8kms would have Los hindrance also wonder if the laster designator is effective out to that range. However what would be interesting to know is if a 3rd party (SF operator?) can designate the laser and Arjun can shoot and scoot?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jan 2011 04:51

is it good news enough to cancel/freeze t90s ? probably not till fmbt is in for trials.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2011 08:33

most of the stuff mentioned for Mk2 is likely in trials for a few yrs already due to the extended ragging the Mk1 had to go through to qualify as TFTA enough to 'belong' in the armour corps the home of the t90 munna.

so in that sense its not rocket science project. its time to get somewhat ambitious and think of useful add on kit like remote weapons station, silent watch APU, a new higher muzzle velocity gun , better L:d ammo, direct video downlink from UAV , IR stealth exhaust cooling and so on...time to rub it in and thrash the t90_munna again.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 19 Jan 2011 09:05

the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera giving T-90s its night vision capability and higher precision is not “adequately tropicalised.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#France

Didnt western tanks particpate in GW 1 & 2? Can't we get the similar systems installed in them?

BTB, I am a supporter of Arjun, but the question of existing t-90 / 72 worthiness remain. We cant just stop modernizing them since we have acquired them already

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jan 2011 10:16

Singha wrote:....its time to get somewhat ambitious and think of useful add on kit like remote weapons station, silent watch APU, a new higher muzzle velocity gun , better L:d ammo, direct video downlink from UAV , IR stealth exhaust cooling and so on...time to rub it in and thrash the t90_munna again.

Some of the Arjuns should also be able to launch and retrieve a nethra uav for immediate proximity battlefield recce. Like the mine sweeper tanks that head a column any Arjun that heads a column should have this capability to get battlefield data and help in strike planning.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Jan 2011 13:59

srai wrote:
Sanku wrote:Its already a 50 tank line. It will be made into a 100 tank line now that the production process is sorted out.
I am sure if the IA committed to 1,000 Arjun then we will see the production capacity greatly increased.

I agree with your analysis, still GoI IS on record saying that it is committed to a eventual force structure of 50:50 around the two families.

Given that the issues so far (fixing the production line, fixing the remaining bugs in design/production, convincing the IA that the issues are fixed) are finally fixed as of last year -- I expect to see orders starting to come in to move towards that eventual target.

Considering that the 3000 Ts are already planned for (90/72 upg) I expect that we will see Arjun orders now and corresponding ramp up soon (2014-15) till then (1-2 years) we can expect the line to continue at 50 tanks per year to meet the current orders.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2011 20:33

maybe the battlefield command tanks that feature just radio masts and no gun can also have the UAV downlink station and feed some of that data into the BMS for the rest of tanks.

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 20 Jan 2011 02:15

Singha wrote:maybe the battlefield command tanks that feature just radio masts and no gun......

Command tanks don't have a gun? Won't that make it easier to identify and take them out?
I would say even the regular tanks should have just the 'antenna' to help the command tanks blend in.

I think some allied command tanks in WW2 had dummy guns.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2011 08:36

my knowledge may be out of date. in WW2 they had these boxy creatures on same tank hull minus the gun but with radio operators and senior officer inside. they would not be in line of fire but operate a bit in the rear.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2011 09:05

I'm not sure there are specialised command tanks any longer, perhaps a separate coms module at most.

commanders usually move in specialised APC's.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jan 2011 07:46

The dig did not get the recognition, so I am posting it here

DPP 2011: Old Battlenecks remain, Khana - Khilana - Khazana

By Air Cmde Raghubir Singh (Retd)

But we take immense pride in denouncing our indigenous developments publically. Unprecedented sustained Arjun bashing is indicative of the no holds barred approach of the vested interest that can go to any extent? Carrying out comparative trials of the heavy duty MBT Arjun designed as per the GSQR against T-90 in trials shows our approach. In no country other than ours –would the defence experts be driving so much pleasure in blowing out of proportion even in minor failures of most complex systems.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 21 Jan 2011 09:42

^^^ refreshing to see someone from the IAF stating the above. There's hope for them yet

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Jan 2011 04:32

maybe a little unrelated but for armour fans who may not visit the burkha thread

Finally got my netflix copy of the long awaited israeli war movie Lebanon

Had mixed feelings about it

First the good

It is technically interesting as the whole movie is shot from inside a tank.
The outside views of carnage are captured through the gunners and commander sight.

The claustrophobic, stinking humid interiors of the tank is captured perfectly

The bad

This seems to be a leftist Israeli film with all its associated self flogging.

A unit of 12 paratroopers and a tank are basically asked to roll into Lebanon. The para major Jamil is the overall commander. Not sure if Israel used a tank in this manner but I leave it IDF tank guys to comment

The 4 tankers exhibit all the symptoms a leftist war film maker thrusts on you.

there is the driver who wants his mommy
there is the gunner who cannot get himself to kill
there is the commander who has not shred of officer qualities
there is the loader who pretty much disobeys every order

Twice the commander is asked by Jamil to shape up.

The men are a mess

the tank is a mess.

And frankly at some point you want a RPG to put an end to the damn whining.

The saving grace is the brilliant portrayal by Zohar Strauss as Jamil the para major as he tries to extricate himself from this shit storm

For comparison the NYtimes review

http://movies.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/mo ... banon.html

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Jan 2011 18:43

I guess this is what BEML might be offering in the "light tank" segment given their Polish connections:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7649/img0043gh.jpg
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... hicles/pag

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 25 Jan 2011 19:00

Surya wrote:A unit of 12 paratroopers and a tank are basically asked to roll into Lebanon. The para major Jamil is the overall commander. Not sure if Israel used a tank in this manner but I leave it IDF tank guys to comment.

If he is a major and it is a detached tank (or even a platoon/troop of tanks), then he would naturally command it. The tank troop/platoon attached to a mechanized company is commanded by the coy cdr (a captain in the US).

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Jan 2011 19:18

i agree he is the commander

I am not sure whether the IDF sent out a single scraggly tank on a role like this

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2011 19:54

Why would any professional army send out a single tank on such a mission?
Then again, a lot of the stuff about the professionalism of the IDF is hype. They have conscription with a lot of the problems that entails. In the recent conflict, it was hilarious to see how their ops were at nightime, ostensibly to occur silently with minimum fuss, they have a commander using a megaphone to gather all his troops together and then send them on house clearing ops. Predictably, a unit got ambushed and people wounded.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2011 20:22

I believe there have been cases of conscripts with cellphones calling up family from frontline or anxious mothers wanting their boy or girl home for weekends.

definitely not the stuff of old legend when IDF was fighting for the survival of israel. some of the wealth, high technology and security have led to complacency and sloppiness.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 27 Jan 2011 22:23

Why is that we did not have the Arjun in Republic Day Parade this year ? Are we still obsessed with the TIN CAN ?