Indian Military Aviation

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Jan 2011 08:02

Well the M2k upgrade difficulties rule out further purchases of French Weapon Systems. That leaves Russia, EADS (Europe), SAAB. The Russians also - have problems in staying committed to timelines and contracts and love selling to China (may desist in the future - wait and see). Co-development with the Russians would alleviate the need for US tech.

What is the rationale for the US to pursue no. 3?

disha · Post by **disha** » 17 Jan 2011 08:04

Vivek K wrote:..What is the rationale for the US to pursue no. 3?

Taiwan/South China Sea/Korea and the Great Game Part Deux

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Jan 2011 08:07

US now sets eye on $1.4bn contract for attack copter deal
TOI

Having already bagged some mega defence deals, the US now seems quite smug about cornering an even greater share of the lucrative Indian arms market despite the strong presence here of traditional military suppliers like Russia and Israel. The growing American confidence can be gauged from the fact that though the field trial evaluation process for acquiring 22 heavy-duty attack helicopters for IAF is still in progress, the US Congress has already been notified by the Obama administration about the impending $1.4 billion contract. Interestingly, the final battle for the attack helicopters or gunships is now down to just the two erstwhile Cold War rivals, US and Russia, with Boeing's AH-64D Apache Longbow pitted against the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant's Mi-28 Havoc.

"We are still evaluating the two helicopters (Apache and Havoc) in contention...the final selection will take some time,'' said a senior IAF officer. But that has not stopped the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) from notifying its Congress, even though it acknowledges India ''is yet to select the Boeing-US Army proposal... This notification is being made in advance so that, in the event that the proposal is selected, the US may move as quickly as possible to implement the sale." The notification even lists out what India ''will request'' as part of the ''complete package'' worth around $1.4 billion. Apart from the 22 Apaches, it includes 812 AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 Hellfire-II missiles, 245 Stinger Block I-92H missiles, 12 AN/APG-78 fire-control radars and the like. Holding the "proposed sale" will strengthen the Indo-US strategic relationship, the notification says the Apaches "will improve India's capability to strengthen its homeland defence and deter regional threats".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jan 2011 08:09

Vivek K wrote:
What is the rationale for the US to pursue no. 3?

As far as I can tell - this is what the US has done till date and would like things to remain that way unless forved to change. The question is whether China can force the change.

China has acquired a lot of adversaries, with India and the US on the wrong side
India has acquired a lot of adversaries where China and Pakistan (supported by the US and China) are opposed to India

You find that the US has a role in helping every nation oppose every other nation. China is the only nation that has had the balls to oppose the US. Sorry, this is geopolitics - but it has a bearing on arms and tech held by various nations.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Jan 2011 09:13

Well, with all the engineering talent, India must continue to build. The Chinese have built imperfect aicraft in the past. But they will continue to improve till they get there. I have a first hand experience of going one on one with them in manufacturing. Their long history of building Mig-21 clones gives them a vast data pool that they can use to build newer designs. The good news is that their edge over us in fighter aircraft not as much as it can be at the moment. However, in the next decade this will change. Therefore local development is the way to go for India.

I wonder what is the status of the IJT and of the Kaveri's airborne tests on the IL-76? We must continue to build.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Jan 2011 09:27

Vivek K wrote:I wonder what is the status of the IJT

HJT-36 is to receive IOC in June 2011.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Jan 2011 09:29

How about the Kaveri mated to a IL 76? Any word on how the flight testing is proceeding? Can we not spare one IL76 in India for such testing?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2011 09:38

the ground facilities at the gromov flt test center and in germany the kaveri team uses is not available in india. we have discussed the potential cost and photos of the germany facility before...its unlikely to be a huge amt. naturally if we are serious about engines we need such facility both in aircraft and land engines.
ISRO also suffered due to lack of vacuum test facility which is available in germany - again, not expected to be a huge cost if setup locally.

GOI wanted to conquer everything on a shoestring. but that mindset is changing now. perhaps ex drdo/isro people acting as scientific advisers to top level of GOI and robust chinese developments have caused this change in mindset.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Jan 2011 16:42

X-post

Missing file case: IAF committee gives clean chit to officials
The Hindu

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2011 20:19

Shouldnt the headline read "IAF clears its officers". It doesn't have officials.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jan 2011 21:05

ramana wrote:Shouldnt the headline read "IAF clears its officers". It doesn't have officials.

DDM at its best Gurudev

After an initial probe into the incident, two senior IAS officers had come under the scanner

Mind boggles at a IAF CoI (as per the article) looking into IAS officers actions.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Jan 2011 21:22

ramana wrote:Shouldnt the headline read "IAF clears its officers". It doesn't have officials.

Given our DDM standards, one must feel happy that the headlines didn't read " Indian Army clears its officers in the MMRCA file case"..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 Jan 2011 00:30

IAF chief in Lanka to deepen military ties, pays homage to IPKF

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jan 2011 07:55

shukla wrote:X-post

Missing file case: IAF committee gives clean chit to officials
The Hindu

There is a possibility of the proposed Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal being cancelled "partially" or "fully" if the tendering process is found to have been affected, they added.

: )

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Jan 2011 09:08

NRao wrote:
shukla wrote:X-post

Missing file case: IAF committee gives clean chit to officials
The Hindu

There is a possibility of the proposed Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal being cancelled "partially" or "fully" if the tendering process is found to have been affected, they added.

Who needs enemies when we have such a brilliant bureaucracy...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Jan 2011 09:19

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shukla wrote:X-post

Missing file case: IAF committee gives clean chit to officials
The Hindu
Who needs enemies when we have such a brilliant bureaucracy...

The IAF committee's objective was only to investigate any lapses within the IAF's command structure. And none were found. The file was in the possession of an MoD IAS officer. The MoD investigation is a different affair and is yet to conclude.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2011 09:20

is the HJT-36 testing based out of someplace like bidar or nasik now? I occasionally see hawks in yellow primer but its been more than a year since I spotted the red and white of IJT in blr skies...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Jan 2011 09:23

Vivji,
I am not blaming the IAF at all... I was confident, and in this case proven right, that no IAF personal will be found playing foul...
I am just complaining on the bureaucracy, that is the MoD..

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 18 Jan 2011 10:20

Singha wrote:is the HJT-36 testing based out of someplace like bidar or nasik now? I occasionally see hawks in yellow primer but its been more than a year since I spotted the red and white of IJT in blr skies...

Singha just last week the HJT flew directly over my colony in Koramangala. So at least till last week it was right here in BLR...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Jan 2011 15:21

Here is some update on Baaz upgrade from chaiwalla. I think Cain Marko had recently asked for one. 6 Baaz are already in Russia. Don't know when they are scheduled to return but it is expected that the whole Baaz fleet will get upgraded in nearly 2 years.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 18 Jan 2011 22:32

Indian-Tajik air base negotiations expose India’s limited regional influence
http://centralasianewswire.com/Security ... px?id=2820

Not sure how much of this is to believed, but looks like deploying fighter jets in Ayni is out of the picture for now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2011 22:52

we dont need fighters in CAR to sit there and do nothing - we need strong trade links, good bribery and relations with all power brokers and RAA agents, lots of RAA agents...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Jan 2011 22:56

^^^ dragon has been doing full court press on CAR nations for a few months, this is not a surprise

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jan 2011 13:01

Sad...

IAF stunt pilot's widow turns to Antony for help
Hindustan Times

Shalini Jetly, 40, has also been pleading with the IAF for a school job for more than three years. Shalini wrote to defence minister AK Antony on Tuesday seeking his intervention to get her dues (pension and gratuity) from the IAF and a school job on compassionate grounds. She has two children, Sukrit, 12, and Tanisha, 8. She says, "I have written to the minister after exhausting all available avenues. Vikas is gone but my children have their lives ahead of them. I have to arrange for their school fees and bills have to be paid."

"Life has been a living hell for the family… Shalini and her children have suffered enough. She is taking care of her in-laws like a son, without any source of income. The government should take a sympathetic view..."

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 19 Jan 2011 14:09

This is what we do with our hero's after they are gone. Who would want to come to armed forces???

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jan 2011 18:43

X-post

2 Pakistani aircraft detected flying close to Indian air space: IAF
DNA

Two Pakistani aircraft today flew close to the international border in the Jammu sector, triggering an air defence alert of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The two low-flying Pakistani light aircraft were detected close to Indian territory and were sighted by BSF troops deployed in the RS Pura Sector in Jammu, IAF sources said.

"Their movement and approach were picked up by our sensors and radars," they said. Though the aircraft were flying in Pakistani territory, it was a breach of agreement between the two sides barring flying of fixed-wing aircraft in 10km area from each side of the international boundary, they said.

The issue, the sources said, would also be taken up with Pakistani authorities through the external affairs ministry. In the last three years, Pakistan's military aircraft, helicopters and spy drones or unmanned aerial vehicles have violated Indian airspace on 23 occasions.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 19 Jan 2011 19:06

Next time they come near our airspace why not repeat the Atlantique incident of 1999.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantique_Incident

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 Jan 2011 06:33

Gaur wrote:Here is some update on Baaz upgrade from chaiwalla. I think Cain Marko had recently asked for one. 6 Baaz are already in Russia. Don't know when they are scheduled to return but it is expected that the whole Baaz fleet will get upgraded in nearly 2 years.

Thanks Gaur, I was hoping we will start seeing some upgraded Baaz soon.

CM.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Jan 2011 10:31

Boeing Withdraws from Indian Tanker Competition
..:: India Strategic ::..

Boeing withdraws from Indian Tanker Competition
Published: January 2011

New Delhi. Boeing has withdrawn from the midair tanker competiton floated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in September 2010.

That leaves only the European Airbus A330 MRTT and the Russian IL 78 in the fray for supplying six midair refuelers to the IAF, which may actually buy a few more aircraft on follow-on orders later.

At present, IAF flies six IL 78 tankers, which are doing well but are of old technology and IAF is looking for newer, better options. In fact, the Airbus 330 MRTT (Multi Role Tanker Transport) had won the competition earlier but as it was regarded as too expensive, re-tendering was ordered.

Boeing has a new generation 767 under development but will not operationalise it until it gets the US Air Force’s order for 179 aircraft. The evaluation for that, against the EADS Airbus A 330 MRTT is still going on, although a decision is expected in the first half of this year.

Boeing Vice President for Defence, Space and Security in India Dr Vivek Lall told India Strategic that Boeing had to withdraw as the last date for complying with the tender bid was January 12.

Dr Lall said: Only upon the outcome of the KC-X competition for replacement of US Air Force refueling takers will be able to fully determine our ability to participate in future international competitions. Boeing is committed to assist our international customers meet their military requirements but we are not in a position now to discuss any detail expressed by specific customers.”

However, he said, if the USAF accepted the Boeing 767 tanker and the IAF extended the date for the competition, “Boeing would be happy to take part.”

That does not seem likely though as the Indian Air Force is under a planned phase of transformation and further delay could upset the overall schedule. Midair tankers are required to extend the range of both combat and transport aircraft.

Notably, the Indian Tankers are Fitted with Israeli Probes , and the tender, or the Request for Proposales (RfP), was also issued to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) just in case it could buy some aircraft and integrate its systems on board.

The Israeli Response is Not Known.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Jan 2011 11:14

Ah ! the clearest indication yet that Boeing believes that the USAF tanker competition is lost for it..that would mean that the IAF competition for 6 tankers wouldn't justify the costs of developing the 767NG tanker.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Jan 2011 12:38

There was an article some moons ago that suggested that the IAF needs a tanker park of about 18 at the minimum.

But given the SFC requirement for another 40 A/c that figure may move upward.

With the involvement of the Israelis in the Il-78 I wonder if the Midas is back in with a shout given that it is cheaper and IAF requirements are going up all the time.

The A330 MRTT is a superb aircraft however.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Jan 2011 13:01

India to Showcase Attack Copter

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Jan 2011 14:00

From above link

The second and third flights were in April and May 2010 and as of now, over 20 test flights have checked various parameters. These have paved the way for testing with weapons.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 20 Jan 2011 18:25

Airbus bids for IAF's midair refueller contract

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 20 Jan 2011 18:35

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Airbus bids for IAF's midair refueller contract

Surprised that boeings not bidding.. Meanwhile, life cycle cost analysis will definitely help airbus chances.

saje · Post by **saje** » 20 Jan 2011 19:11

Yesterday night at about 8-8.30 p.m., as I was standing at a bus stop in Madiwala (B'lore) I saw a small jet in a circular pattern. It made at least 3 such rounds over the area where I was standing. It was flying low, and the landing gears were up. Looks-wise the wing design matched that of the IJT-36 "Sitara" trainer. Could anyone confirm this? Test flights this late in the night???

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 20 Jan 2011 21:04

Great Video of the Canadian C 130J, these are brand new made just before the Indian ones. Really cool from the inside.

http://www.vancouversun.com/videos/inde ... 1726026142

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jan 2011 03:09

saje wrote:Yesterday night at about 8-8.30 p.m., as I was standing at a bus stop in Madiwala (B'lore) I saw a small jet in a circular pattern. It made at least 3 such rounds over the area where I was standing. It was flying low, and the landing gears were up. Looks-wise the wing design matched that of the IJT-36 "Sitara" trainer. Could anyone confirm this? Test flights this late in the night???

possible. if they expect IOC by mid 2011 they would need to do nighttime flights.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Jan 2011 05:09

IAF refueller race

Boeing, which had at first said it would compete, has withdrawn from the race ostensibly because its new generation of mid-air tankers would be fully operational only if and when it gets an order for 179 refuellers from the US Air Force.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jan 2011 16:56

IAF to showcase Network Centric Operations on Jan 26

The images of the situation board of AFNET (Air Force Network) and the Surface to Air Missiles firing depict the integration of sensors and capabilities of the IAF tableaux.