J & K news and discussion

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 Jan 2011 10:03

^^He said it on NDTV.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 22 Jan 2011 10:13

My feeling is that the yatra won't reach Srinagar. If NC and Manmohan stop them, I don't think BJP will be able to embarrass them enough or raise the stakes enough for them to allow the Yatra.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jan 2011 10:35

abhishek_sharma wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/Dangerous ... 53156.aspx

Ask the former Army Chief General VP Malik who was at the helm when the Kargil war was fought and won in 1999. He is blunt in his belief that the BJP must call off the yatra.

It is not a first time. There is at least one other general (don't remember who) who said India must talk to Pakistan irrespective of terror attacks. It is sad.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 10:36

RoyG wrote:^^He said it on NDTV.

Even in 1992, most of the security apparatus advised against the yatra...the way it had to be finally consummated in Lal Chowk was pretty silly - bunch of 70 guys trooped into a deserted, sanitised lal chowk, hurriedly raised the flag, and the flag had to be taken down soon after the entourage left..So I am not surprised Gen Malik has advised against the current avatar..

There is news today that even the BJP has decided not to make an issue out of it in case the yatra is stopped in Jammu.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Jan 2011 10:45

RamaY wrote: It is not a first time. There is at least one other general (don't remember who) who said India must talk to Pakistan irrespective of terror attacks. It is sad.

There is a Navy Admiral whose son-in-law is a Paki. He is also a member of WKK-brigade, for obvious reasons. The question is how do these guys reach the top level.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 10:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:There is a Navy Admiral whose son-in-law is a Paki. He is also a member of WKK-brigade, for obvious reasons. The question is how do these guys reach the top level.

Adm Ramdas - well, he has other "illustrations" associated as well

But seriously, how can the marital decisions of offspring be a case against the parent?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 10:51

BTW, this is B Raman on the yatra..

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?270156

Yet one more function by BJP elements from outside the state is not going to add to the sanctity and the nationalist significance of the day. On the contrary, it is going to add to the difficulties of the security forces in maintaining law and order in view of possible attempts by separatist elements to disrupt the BJP's Lal Chowk function. If the BJP wants to help the security forces in maintaining law and order, it should refrain from actions such as holding a function of its own in the Lal Chowk.

It is the bounden duty of all of us outside the state to strengthen the hands of the nationalist elements in the state which have been countering the separatists with great courage. By their unwise obstinacy, the BJP elements could end up be creating a situation that could weaken the hands of the local nationalist elements.

It is not the time for the BJP to flaunt its patriotism. All of us are patriots. It is time for it to conduct itself with wisdom and a sense of responsibility

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 Jan 2011 10:54

BTW, there is a democles sword hanging on top of the heads of the BJP Government in Karnataka. Can this also be taken as a game to rattle the BJP and causing panic. So much so that they may come for a compromise on the Yathra?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Jan 2011 10:57

somnath wrote: But seriously, how can the marital decisions of offspring be a case against the parent?

Why not? It follows that he has a stake in the success of Pakistan.

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 Jan 2011 11:07

Typical smoke and mirrors tactic at display by the establishment. On one hand they are getting the English media (yes only English media) to say the BJP has given up ghost and is planning to run away. On the other hand assorted wingmen and chaperones of the political party in media and from other walks of life are making blatantly political statements against another political party. They expect to be taken seriously?

Meanwhile the failed/wound up/communal/loony rally reached Chandigarh yesterday and barely 5 souls were attending it. See for yourself the image from D Jagran.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Jan 2011 11:27

Sri wrote:My feeling is that the yatra won't reach Srinagar. If NC and Manmohan stop them, I don't think BJP will be able to embarrass them enough or raise the stakes enough for them to allow the Yatra.

Indeed, MMS & OA surely have the guns and won't hesitate to use it against the BJP yatris, even as they cower before TSP and their pupeteers in the valley. I sense this from Jaitly's coment. Omar Abdullah said that the "message" has been conveyed to whom it was meant, and he left no doubt. The security forces have been ordered to fire. Bottom line is that BJP doesn't have the #s on its side, and hence they will give up. Of course, the same pukes disparaging BJP for their show of patriotism will mock them later for the damp squib.

Lost in all this, and this is what Swapan Das Gupta and the BJP leader asserted on NDTV was what is India's bottom line. Are we always going to pander to the separatist scum? Where is the Lakshman Rekha? MMS and TSP are on their way to win this round, but hope its not the beginning of MMS's sell out: joint soverignty.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jan 2011 11:34

Pranav wrote:
Acharya wrote: For the US , they need something to do a cut and run fast.
US will not cut and run ... they want to throw the Pak dog the Kashmir bone, but they have their own agenda for Afghanistan and Central Asia.

I was talking about the army in Af Pak and mil expenses
They want to reduce ot from $100B to $8 B per year

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jan 2011 11:46

Well nothing different was expected from General V.P Malik he couldn't handle the Kargil war and now he has words of wisdom for the rest.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jan 2011 12:08

This kind of logic plagues our intelligentsia no wonder when they failed in 99, ABV said 'Inki bhi laaj rakhani hai'

It is the bounden duty of all of us outside the state to strengthen the hands of the nationalist elements in the state which have been countering the separatists with great courage.

Well 60+ years and counting I guess we have a fair idea as to how much strength these nationalist elements in state have gained.

By their unwise obstinacy, the BJP elements could end up be creating a situation that could weaken the hands of the local nationalist elements.

The kind of nationalists we have in the valley, I'd rather not have them.

It is not the time for the BJP to flaunt its patriotism. All of us are patriots. It is time for it to conduct itself with wisdom and a sense of responsibility

Yes this lecture on conduct,responsibility and using wisdom applies only to one side. Basically a trademark of Nehru-Gandhi tried and tested policy of 'INACTION'.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Jan 2011 12:28

GHQ in Rawilpindi must be lauging their asses off singing: "hilthi hui deewar ko yak dhakka aur dho", as they watch India so scared of asserting its writ in the valley.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 22 Jan 2011 12:46

somnath wrote:Even in 1992, most of the security apparatus advised against the yatra...the way it had to be finally consummated in Lal Chowk was pretty silly

Birather, flag is hoisted not consummated, you are reading too much of different type of literature and mixing your words

Flag hoisting is silly only for insane minded people eating our food and chanting enemy's name

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 22 Jan 2011 13:44

Raghavendra Ji,

Well said. Same people are ok with traders in Anantnag forced to write 'Islamabad' on their boards by separatists. They are OK with people coming to Delhi and fanning separatist ideas.

And they are against tri color... If they have so much problem let them stop the yatra and hoist the tri color in lal chawk themselves....

They want to stop BJP then let NC and Congress legislators fly the flag before the yatra reaches Sri Nagar.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jan 2011 14:22

They can say what ever they want but they can do that for some other country.
Just leave India alone.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 22 Jan 2011 14:45

If there is any change in status of J&K, the right wing will organize such massive Kashmir Yatras that it will make Haj and Maha Kumbh look pale in comparison - this is the message that should be going out and it will scare the shit out of Kashmiri separatists and their desire for Shariat law. Flag hoisting is not necessarily important here in my opinion as long as this message goes through and the protest does not necessarily need to enter Srinagar for this.

Look at how many people from all over India, we can assemble in Kashmir just for 26th Jan celebration party, now imagine what we will do if there is any change in J&K status.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Jan 2011 16:45

Why doesnt GOI come out in the open and call Kasuri's bluff for what it is, when it doesnt do this all kinds of doubts arise in minds of concerned citizens.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 17:31

Marten wrote:The problem statement here is this: "and the flag had to be taken down soon after the entourage left."
WTF is wrong with you? You've enshrined pusillanimity so much so that you forget Srinagar is Indian soil.

I am only pointing out the sheer tokenism of the whole effort...In 1992, we were struggling big time - Sopore was in terrorist hands literally, there was no border fencing and we had multiple kidnappings and assassinations...That statement "flag had to be taken down..." is 100% factual..There was no way the forces could g'tee that the flag would not be desecrated in some manner as soon as the heavy bandobast was lifted, so they had to take it down...What was the point then? No one even the security establishment was happy with the yatra in the midst of an intense anti-terror campaign...

A question to all "friends of BJP": why does the BJP make so little mention of the Ekta yatra in its narrrative? The treatment accorded to it is similar to the treatment accorded to PVNR in the Congress narrative...The reason is simple, most of the top leadership was deeply embarrassed by the effort (in the same manner as Congress is embarrassed about PVNR, strangely)...

Last, Swapan Dasgupta is being disenegnuous when he talks of "bottomlines" on Kashmir...The bottomlines have been set - the whole of KAshmir, including POK is India's - there is a Parliament resolution to that effect...Any executive action even consummating our long-held negotiating position (LoC as the border) will require PArliamentary sanction..Rest is all diplomatic kite-flying...

The whole nonsense about Kasuri saying this and Musharraf saying that is playing definitive with bargaining positions..As far as they go, during Kargil Riaz Naik and Mishra (was it AN Mishra, ABV's envoy?) talked even about the Chenab formula, which gives the entire valley to Pak..Does it mean ABV was selling out India?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 18:30

^^^MMJ Ekta Yatra: Look at how BJP has treated it over the years!

Chenab formula: Where have you been when all those tomes on Kargil were being written? BTW, even BR has an article talking about that

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/2005/ ... ution.html

During the Kargil War, back-channel negotiators Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani foreign secretary and RK Mishra, a leading Indian journalist, had been reported to have exchanged papers on the Chenab Plan, documented in a Pakistani proposal, an Indian counter-proposal, and a Pakistani response.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 22 Jan 2011 18:32

I think time to tell the Brits to shut up, they are the real spoilers. they have a huge constituency of Mirpuri`s , wretched inbred vermin, thats breeding like pigs.

British MPs assure full support for Kashmir cause
LONDON, Jan 21 (APP)- A number of British Parliamentarians while expressing solidarity with Kashmiri people, have stressed on India to withdraw its forces from Jammu and Kashmir, restore law and order and peaceful atmosphere and pave way for people to secure their basic right of self-determination.Addressing a seminar arranged by Jammu & Kashmir Tehreek-e-Khud Iradiyet (Movement for Self-determination) at the Parliament House last evening, the legislators assured full support to Kashmiri people in their just cause for their rights and secured future.

The UK lawmakers from all three major political parties were of the view that the Kashmir issue is core problem and without its resolution, peace and stability would never prevail in South Asia.
“It is in the larger interest of not only regional countries but also the super powers to use their influence to help settle this controversy amicably”, they said.
The speakers emphasised the British political parties especially the coalition government to take special interest in this issue as they enjoy equal and good relations both with India and Pakistan.
“If they are sincere friends and well-wishers to both the nations and their people and furthermore believe in human rights of Kashmiri people, they should come forward and support the efforts being made to resolve the issue”, they emphasised.
The legislators also assured of their full support to make successful and effective the various measures and future plan of the organisation to highlight the significance of this issue in Britain and rest of the Europe.
The British Parliamentarians who spoke on the occasion were include Sir Gerald Kaufman, Yasmeen Qureshi, Racheal Reaves, Luciana Burger , David Nuttal and Julie Hilling.
Others who spoke and highlighted various aspects of the issue included Raja Nijabat Hussain, President J&KSDM, Secretary M. Azam, ex-councillor Mushtaq Lasharie, Kashmiri leader Nazir Qureshi, Javed Raja, Dr. Amjad Mirza, Amanullah Khan, Sabiha Shahzad, Fouzia Hussain, Saima Yousuf and Itrat Ali.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 22 Jan 2011 18:39

Sultan pointed out that the Indian Prime Minister Manmohen Singh had recently stated that his country (India) would adopt the same Kashmir policy as was declared by late Pandit Jawaher Lal Nehru.

Barrister Sultan, is in the know of many things, but Did mms say that kind of thing?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jan 2011 19:22

One line of thought, at BRF, is MMS and INC are slowly letting control of J&K from our hands. Be it self-rule, join-rule or Paki-rule. The known players Pakistan and Amir Khan twisting the GoI arm. The other line of thought is that it is impossible for any political party to let J&K out of India. I think the reasoning behind this thought is the public out-rage and fallout in the next elections.

American and Pakistani intentions and reasons have been discussed so many time at BRF. But the Indian public's sentiments, which is probably impossible to accurately pinpoint, have not been discussed much. Does INC or any political party have the arrogance to let go of J&K and then plead with the people that it was in the best interest of the country and rest of the public? Or would they ask for permission first? Definitely, beyond doubt, the influential media is in the INC's hands. The English Media will take the "humans first, state next" stance most of the time.

So will a party take the "give us permission" or "forgive us please, what to do" route if America arm twists enough?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 19:29

SwamyG wrote:Does INC or any political party have the arrogance to let go of J&K and then plead with the people that it was in the best interest of the country and rest of the public?

Not possible...Any change in the constitutional status of J&K will require a constitutional amendment - 2/3rd majority...This would include things like "sadr e riyasat" for the Chief Minister..

This is the only reality, rest is hot air - fills the papers and soundbytes..

So will a party take the "give us permission" or "forgive us please, what to do" route if America arm twists enough?

Read Schaffer's Limits of Influence - its mighty difficult for America to twist anything beyond (a very superficial) point..

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 22 Jan 2011 19:38

^
^
congress party dont care about Indian public opinion, after 26/11 public wanted visible retaliation against pakistani terrorists, congress didnt take any action and today congress party general secretary blames hindu militants for death of karkare. Karkare was killed by pakistani terrorists in front of the whole world and despite that neech digivijay singh tries to protect terrorists like kasab and accuses hindu militants of killing him. congress party is filled with such neechs who will do anything to help pakistan, they are planning the same with kashmir. Dilute AFPSA, withdraw central security forces and now open border with PoK which is teeming with murderous terrorists wanting to do jihad in India which is only going to increase in violence in j&k and other parts of India.

congress ka haath, pakistan ke saath

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 22 Jan 2011 19:43

Constitutional status of J&K being part of India being merely on constitutional papers is cause for worry. Hope that fig of escape is not touted as the only reality. Not only should the constitutional papers have J&K, but is more important that the situation on real ground is same. Else, it is easy to hide behind constitutional papers, while concealing real situation on the ground. Mere pointing to papers is sleight of p.c. sorcar. Let all parts of India have the freedom to hoist national flag in reality and not try to constitutionally hoist flag on paper.

p.s. Oops corrected to mean p.c. sorcar, and not jadunath sarkar.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 20:01

Ajatshatru wrote:Quoting an article without any known verifiable source to back its claim made you firmly conclude: 'talked even about the Chenab formula, which gives the entire valley to Pak..Does it mean ABV was selling out India'? Is that so Somnath? Hmmm....

In case you are oblivious of developments around Kashmir over the years, at least try to make the effort..The Chenab formula has been around since the '60s - widely documented in various chronicles, you will find it even with a simple Google
search...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/s ... html/7.stm

The fact that the Chenab formula was discussed between RK (not AN) Mishra and Niaz Naik is also widely documented - including in the BR article I referenced..Again, if you dont read books a simple Google search will yield tons of material...

So dont be in a hurry to "make a point", do a bit of research to try and increase knowledge...

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 Jan 2011 20:08

A gentle request to my posters, the bottom-line was to this debate is the demand by BJP for the GOI to come clean on the track II talks with poakland. Do not debate on their turf cause they mislead and digress.

Permits on either side of valley can skew the demographics further in 6 months flat. No amendment required

Troops reduction to facilitate a Berlin Wall style nautanki and consequent swaying of nation. No amendment required

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 22 Jan 2011 20:09

Somnath , Flag being taken down is nothing new.Most of the ceremonies(including 15th aug and 26th jan) where flag is hoisted , it is taken down afterwards.It is called lowering of flag.This is known as retreat ceremony when a military does it.

And also after reading that post of yours I felt that you were actually very happy about the Indian flag being taken down.If true then that would be really sad.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jan 2011 20:16

munna wrote:Troops reduction to facilitate a Berlin Wall style nautanki and consequent swaying of nation. No amendment required

How?

darshhan wrote:Somnath , Flag being taken down is nothing new.Most of the ceremonies(including 15th aug and 26th jan) where flag is hoisted , it is taken down afterwards.It is called lowering of flag.This is known as retreat ceremony when a military does it.

I have attended the Beating the Retreat ceremony mysefl quite a few times @ Rajpath. Thats not the point..Its just that a flag was hoisted, under a sanitised environment, hardly 40-50 people (hardly the thousands of yatris promised), the group whisked away within minutes and the flag had to be taken down immediately - all due to security reasons...Just highlighting the tokenism of the affair..thats all..You might want to read what MK Dhar (ex IB chief, or maybe dy chief?) had to say about the yatra in his book...

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 Jan 2011 20:31

Somnath-ji unlike your eminent self I am just a kiranastore wala hence I cannot dare to explain things to ivy leaguers/oxbridgers/IIx-ers. I understand things from limited view of the world from Hindi media and hence am clearly not an important "cog" in the wheel of trade finance or even domestic finance

.

Since you can very place this humble self of mine kindly do not pay attention to my posts.

PS: the idea is to loosen ground domination and CI grid to allow easier mass mobility. Without boots on ground the mullahs know no bounds. A repeat of 1990.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jan 2011 20:46

somnath wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Does INC or any political party have the arrogance to let go of J&K and then plead with the people that it was in the best interest of the country and rest of the public?
Not possible...Any change in the constitutional status of J&K will require a constitutional amendment - 2/3rd majority...This would include things like "sadr e riyasat" for the Chief Minister..

If that is the case what is Kasuri saying? And why is he saying whatever heck he is saying? Especially now! How does him opening mouth serve Pakistan's interest?

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Jan 2011 21:08

Finally, the PM finds some time to have his 2 bits on the issue:
R-Day not to score political points, appeals PM

With the Bharatiya Janata Party [ Images ] planning to hoist national flag in Srinagar [ Images ] on the Republic Day, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday said parties should desist from scoring "political points" or "promoting divisive agendas" and peace should not be disturbed in the "sensitive" Jammu and Kashmir .

Observing that the Republic Day is "a solemn occasion", he said, "It is not an occasion to score political points, to embarrass state and local administrations, to create situations that could lead to entirely avoidable problems, or to promote divisive agendas."

"It is my hope that all our citizens and political parties will heed this call and will do nothing that will disturb peace and harmony, or detract in any way from the dignity of Republic Day," Singh said in a statement.

He said it was "all the more important to observe maximum restraint particularly in a sensitive state like Jammu and Kashmir."

Though he did not name anybody, he was apparently referring to BJP's 'Ekta Yatra' which is planned to proceed to Srinagar to hoist the national tricolour at the historic Lal Chowk, because of which the government is apprehending trouble.

The Jammu and Kashmir government has made it clear that it will not allow hoisting of the national flag by BJP on that day but the party is adamant on going ahead with the plan.

Singh observed that over the years, the states have devised their own time-tested and publicly-accepted procedures for the Republic Day celebrations within a common national framework.

Sorry for the caps but HOW CAN RAISING A NATIONAL FLAG BE CALLED DECISIVE ( his own words bolded in article above)?

Shouldn't the PM be offering the services of the INC to help in hoisting the flag if the only aim was to defuse the mileage of the BJP?

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Jan 2011 21:09

Guess we would have to wait for the next Wikileaks to figure what the 2G had to say on this issue ( since they seem to articulate their concerns on internal politics/security of India to foreign diplomats onlee)

saket · Post by **saket** » 22 Jan 2011 21:12

Chenab formula proposed by pakistan and rejected by ABV

vs

Kasuri coming on UndieTV and talking of joint sovereignty being agreed upon without any denial by MMS-GoI

Massive == going on here ..

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 22 Jan 2011 21:13

Flag-hoisting: Six BJP activists arrested in Srinagar

Six BJP activists were on Saturday arrested for violating prohibitory orders, which are in force in the city to foil the party's plan of hoisting the national flag at Lal Chowk on Republic Day.

They have been identified as Mushtaq Ahmad Dar, Showkat Ahmad Mir, Waseem Hassan, Imtiyaz Shiekh, Manzoor Ahmad Bhat and Hilal Ahmad Mir.

The BJP activists were pasting posters on the city walls for publicising the culmination of the party's Rashtriya Ekta Yatra at Lal Chowk on January 26.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2011 21:20

Hope people note their names and realize that the separatists and ruling clans are not monolith.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 22 Jan 2011 21:21

On paper i.e. the constitution, even PoK is a part of India, isn't it? Papers do not determine the ground situation. The Manmohan-Maino mafia is perfectly capable of doing irreversible damage to Kashmir just like they have done irreversible damage to India's fight against Islamic terrorism by starting the witch hunt for the non-existent Hindu terrorism. And people thinking that a wide sea of common people will erupt into violent frenzy if our position on Kashmir is compromised, take a break. Congress party, fooling India since 1947, is not naive. They will make the surrender step by step, carefully constructing and deconstructing public opinion through their cronies in the media. TFTA Kashmiri Sunnis like Sajjad Lone will shed a few croc tears on UndieTV & HT with the entire servile media will roll over blaming every Indian for the Kashmiris' perceived sufferings. The fake Sardar will win a Nobel piss prize probably shared by Maino, India might become the permanent UNSC member & people will forget Kashmir in a heartbeat. Multiply the vomit inducing jubilation of Slumdog oscars by a million and you'll get the picture. Kashmir what?

I hope the BJP does not back down from this, come 26 January, the tricolour must be hoisted at the Lal Chowk & every person in the Congress ever ready to sell the country will have to stop being TSP's whore & come clean in front of the country.