Indian Military Aviation

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2011 21:37

shivji eloquently explains the chaiwallah trust defecit syndrome...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2011 21:48

so, which ddm female to ride the smartest fighter?

oleonau · Post by **oleonau** » 26 Jan 2011 22:10

Well when one is strapped on in single engine fighter and manning position at 900 kmph at couple of feet away with only few 100 feet between the crowd and self and when mighty bird takes on the engine...i guess its not a healthy feeling..
The flypast has always been resisted as far as i know from my sources for single engined aircrafts over any heavily populated areas which cannot be sanitised for birds unlike aero shows where some sort of sanitisation can take place or at least observation and avoidance can happen. Dear shiv, i thought of a better reply from your side than the podded one..

I am sorry if you are disappointed with the reply but I have some serious objections to the logic used by your "source". It is a no brainer to say that birds are a risk over populated areas. It is equally well known that single engines are more at risk from bird ingestion than twin engined aircraft.

Where the ludicrous logic of your "source" falls flat is the idea that the IAF would be willing to risk a bird hit on a twin engine aircraft in a situation where they are unwilling to risk a bird hit in a single engined aircraft. This line of seriously flawed thinking suggests that the IAF should not mind a few birds flying about because they are flying twin engined aircraft. There is no guarantee that a twin engine aircraft will not crash after a bird hit. The precautions that need to be taken to avoid bird hits when multi engined aircraft are flown are exactly the same and no less demanding than the precautions for single engined aircraft. You do not want a bird hit on ANY aircraft, single or multi engined. Period. There is no caste system that allows more birds for some aircraft. In other words if the environment is safe for twin engined aircraft it is also safe for single engined aircraft. No two ways about it.

It is another matter that people with paranoia about aircraft (most probably non aviators/babus worrying about netas) make up real or non existent rules to reduce their own fears and massage their paranoia.[/quote]
[/quote]

acshually shiv u'r right!! dem babus trying to erode the hold (for want of a better word) that the military has ....take for example many years ago they wanted the Army (all contingents) to march with out firing pins in their rifles on 26 Jan (do an RTI for the noting!!!) luckily the army brasss had spunk and refused to do the parade on those conditions!!!!!

those who have been following the Aero India show will also feel the difference from IAF control to MoD.....

and now they're trying it in the valley (reductions of Bns !!!!)

in all fairness there is safety in numbers!!!! notice all aircraft and helos that flew were multi engine !!!! must be sumfin to it!!!

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Jan 2011 00:52

what stops IAF from flying a damn LCA then after all these years and IOC ? a single flypast is all I am asking for...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Jan 2011 02:08

Well it just received IOC right? I doubt if apart from the test pilots any others from the IAF have even trained on the LCA simulators.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Jan 2011 04:39

Then is there any restriction that test pilots can not fly it in R day. I think LCA will be least visible actor from now order.

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 27 Jan 2011 05:02

SaiK wrote:so, which ddm female to ride the smartest fighter?

Not happening.
The F-22 does not have a two-seat variant. All 'training' or 'type conversion' is done using Simulators.

However, I would love to see Barkha Dutt take it up on a one way mission.....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2011 06:35

oleonau wrote:
in all fairness there is safety in numbers!!!! notice all aircraft and helos that flew were multi engine !!!! must be sumfin to it!!!

If anyone finds the need to be objective about this rather than subjective I would suggest looking back for the last 50 years and check what aircraft were flown in R-day parades for the last 50 years and count how many crashes occurred on Delhis precious heads during these parades while Vampires, Ouragans, Mysteres, Hunters, Gnats, Kirans, Su-7s, MiG 23s, MiG 27s, MiG 21s and Mirage 2000s were flown in the flypast.

Or have birds become more vicious in 2011?

Or is it the people of Delhi who are more vulnerable while the people of Kolkata, Jaipur, Mysore or Hyderabad remain quite safe with single engine Suryakirans doing their displays?

A short memory is no excuse for stupidity. My bullshit meter goes off so loudly I have to have my ears checked when I read crap of this type.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Jan 2011 07:09

shiv wrote:
oleonau wrote:
in all fairness there is safety in numbers!!!! notice all aircraft and helos that flew were multi engine !!!! must be sumfin to it!!!

If anyone finds the need to be objective about this rather than subjective I would suggest looking back for the last 50 years and check what aircraft were flown in R-day parades for the last 50 years and count how many crashes occurred on Delhis precious heads during these parades while Vampires, Ouragans, Mysteres, Hunters, Gnats, Kirans, Su-7s, MiG 23s, MiG 27s, MiG 21s and Mirage 2000s were flown in the flypast.

Or have birds become more vicious in 2011?

Or is it the people of Delhi who are more vulnerable while the people of Kolkata, Jaipur, Mysore or Hyderabad remain quite safe with single engine Suryakirans doing their displays?

A short memory is no excuse for stupidity. My bullshit meter goes off so loudly I have to have my ears checked when I read crap of this type.

Shiv . .I guess being a newbie now I realize you are one of the most veteran and trusted source of information in this forum.. we are all proletarians... but have an immense passion for bharat mata and its armed forces.. and I wont be too surprised most of the newbies like us had a dream of either being a IAF fighter pilots or T-90 commanders....
an overdose of sarcasm for every freaking question posted in this forum does not do any good for continued participation... please dont take it as criticism or anything.. I have probably spent half of life by now .. so its an observation from a "Grown child"

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Jan 2011 07:22

@prithvi.. from 'one grown' up child to another..

on BR a certain degree of maturity is expected. I dont see anything wrong with Shiv's comment. not only in india but world over single engined a/c fly regularly over spectators heads.... never heard this argument?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2011 07:30

prithvi wrote: an overdose of sarcasm for every freaking question posted in this forum does not do any good for continued participation... please dont take it as criticism or anything.. I have probably spent half of life by now .. so its an observation from a "Grown child"

You know that from my viewpoint there is nothing I can say without someone taking it amiss. If I try to use humor to point out something the person feels hurt. If I say it bluntly the person feels humiliated. A very long time ago I decided that i would be myself and not try and bend to every hurt sentiment.

A lot of people who are great sources of knowledge on this forum just keep quiet or leave because of the great effort that it takes to write facts and also ensure that the person being told does not feel hurt by humor, sarcasm, rudeness so his ego is not upset. Part of the problem IMO is this stupid English language that does not have a mechanism to address people with respect without sounding patronizing. That is why I believe we should adopt the system of addressing each other with "sir" or "ji" indicating that a written sentence is not meant to be insulting. If I address someone with a "-ji" he ends up acting coy and saying "Don't say ji to me" as if I have mistaken him for his father. People do not want to be addressed respectfully and then lament that they are being mocked or ticked off. What sort of mess is this? Communication becomes a dance of massaging egos.
This is OT. Any more on this should go in the newbie thread or elsewhere.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Jan 2011 07:31

manjgu wrote:@prithvi.. from 'one grown' up child to another..

on BR a certain degree of maturity is expected. I dont see anything wrong with Shiv's comment. not only in india but world over single engined a/c fly regularly over spectators heads.... never heard this argument?

point is what exactly is the reason LCA not being flown... and moreover I have done enough "study" (Read google, Key Pubs, Aus Air Power etc. etc.) to graduate from just a casual reader.... but still have trust that old timers might know few details which goes beyond me.. no arm twisting.. no "I know all" ... just a simple question and expectation of objective answer "yes" ... "no"..i.e...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jan 2011 07:37

arrey bhai, the LCA has just joined IAF and they must be working at a furious pace to get the squadron ready. they have far more important priorities than flying the precious couple of LCA they have all the way to delhi just to participate in a 2 minute flypast.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Jan 2011 07:41

Rahul M wrote:arrey bhai, the LCA has just joined IAF and they must be working at a furious pace to get the squadron ready. they have far more important priorities than flying the precious couple of LCA they have all the way to delhi just to participate in a 2 minute flypast.

see .. thats why I love Rahul..

though I still don't agree with such an excuse.. a flypast run of LCA has nothing to do with "get the squadron ready" in my humble opinion... but anyway .. guess no one for the time know the exact answer... we will wait for it...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 27 Jan 2011 07:42

IAF did flew Mig 21 in missing men formation over Delhi. So this single engine theory is a bit, ahem... unrealistic.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2011 08:38

Sid wrote:IAF did flew Mig 21 in missing men formation over Delhi. So this single engine theory is a bit, ahem... unrealistic.

Not to mention this composite image of Hunters, Mysteres and MiG 21s in formation over Rajpath from my personal archives

kelik on image to enlarge

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2011 08:47

And check the very end of this video for Mirage 2000s and MiG 27s in formation on Republic day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRGfg-EBAfM

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jan 2011 09:04

prithvi wrote:
Rahul M wrote:arrey bhai, the LCA has just joined IAF and they must be working at a furious pace to get the squadron ready. they have far more important priorities than flying the precious couple of LCA they have all the way to delhi just to participate in a 2 minute flypast.
see .. thats why I love Rahul.. though I still don't agree with such an excuse.. a flypast run of LCA has nothing to do with "get the squadron ready" in my humble opinion... but anyway .. guess no one for the time know the exact answer... we will wait for it...

on the contrary, a flypast run hundreds of KM away has EVERYTHING to do with getting the squadron ready. IAF is first and foremost a fighting unit, flying for show comes a distant second in priority. in the yesteryears they got whoever was based close to delhi for the flypast.
while that has changed somewhat, it is very unlikely they will fly in aircraft from far away b'lore for the flypast.
also, why would they even consider the LCA for a flypast this year ? they have at most 2-3 flying articles which are much needed elsewhere. they can always fly them next year or the year after that. it's not as if LCA's going to vanish tomorrow.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 27 Jan 2011 10:28

Sid

Were there any two engine jets available at that time when Mig 21 was flown?
In my recent-memory, I dont remember a Mig 21 at the flypast.
In fact I remember that all flypasts were stopped in the country after a non-delhi crash.

I wont be surprised that the IAF and babus are extremely touchy about the safety and image issue specially when now we have options.

The security issue at Delhi has been taken to insane levels. Paronia is the right term for it. There is a merit in the argument.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2011 17:35

VikB wrote: Were there any two engine jets available at that time when Mig 21 was flown?
I

HF-24, Canberra, later Jaguar and MiG 29

The security issue at Delhi has been taken to insane levels

Yes insane is the word. However if the airspace is safe for twin engined aircraft it is safe for single engined aircraft as well. Twin engines are bigger, fall harder. In any case Delhi flying club should not be allowed to operate on a day to day basis and UAVs need to be disallowed over Delhi unless they are twin engined. How come they were safe during CWG?

Like Pakistani paranoia of India, the idea has zero merit.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2011 19:12

its on a par with my chaiwalla info that jaguars based out of pune were blowing up karachi gas tanks during 71 war...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Jan 2011 20:54

Lalmohan wrote:its on a par with my chaiwalla info that jaguars based out of pune were blowing up karachi gas tanks during 71 war...

Maybe your chaiwallah was drinking something besides chai.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 27 Jan 2011 21:35

U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort

“There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they’re focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters,” Carter said.However, the decision to pursue the F-35 is India’s alone.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Jan 2011 22:59

^^^ One more source confirming the above news

U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2011 23:07

so, India will eventually field the T50/FGFA and the JSF
looks like the latter is being floated as a means of killing off the AMCA...
that indrectly means that unkil has noted the achievement of Tejas and what it means for the mil-eng complex
[ashleybhai is therefore promoting the F18 with a view to moving to JSF]

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Jan 2011 23:20

VinodTK wrote:^^^ One more source confirming the above news

U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort

Oh! They "may allow" us to join the delayed $300 billion (and rising) JSF program? How kind of them to give the SDREs this privilege! Are we supposed to start our lungi dance?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Jan 2011 23:21

Lalmohan wrote:so, India will eventually field the T50/FGFA and the JSF
looks like the latter is being floated as a means of killing off the AMCA...
that indrectly means that unkil has noted the achievement of Tejas and what it means for the mil-eng complex
[ashleybhai is therefore promoting the F18 with a view to moving to JSF]

I would view it slightly differently; By allowing India access to JSF, USA
is telling India, if they buy SH or F16 the relationship can keep going and
it wants to build a strategic partnership insted of a one time deal.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Jan 2011 23:36

This offer (if true) should be viewed in the light of recent news about the JSF program being in doldrums with one of the partners, Turkey seriously considering pulling out and the UKstanis cancelling their order for the STOVL version.

Strategic partnership talk is rubbish. The JSF program would likely require more investment and the US would probably like that to come from the "partners".

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2011 02:14

I think that the message should go out loud and clear- Thanks but no thanks. The FGFA will satisfy the upper end of the IAF's stealth fighter needs and the AMCA will be good enough for the mid-tier and the Tejas Mk1/2 and MRCA should give adequate capabilities for the mid and lower tier. There is simply no room for the F-35 and India doesn't need to invest money on a program that while being futuristic, doesn't really bring any massive advantage to the table.

If any interest is shown, it will be at the expense of the AMCA and India cannot at any cost, let that happen.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2011 02:38

^^^ +1.
I don't think there is any doubt about this.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 28 Jan 2011 02:57

India To Review Revamped Refueler Bids

India To Review Revamped Refueler Bids
Jan 24, 2011
By Neelam Mathews
NEW DELHI

The Indian air force soon will begin technical evaluations of resubmitted bids for six midair refueling transport aircraft from contenders Airbus Military and Ilyushin.

The revised bids were submitted Jan. 12. After the original request for proposals (RFP), released toward the end of 2007, Airbus Military’s A330-based Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) was disqualified as being too expensive.

Ilyushin’s bid also was disqualified when it did not deliver clarifications on its IL-78 proposal to the ministry of defense on time.

Since the price of both vendors’ offerings is already known, the new RFP asks for lifecycle costs, which were not covered in the earlier RFP. While the initial costs of the Russian aircraft are lower, their operating costs are much higher than for the Western tankers due to their age, a defense official says.

The A330 MRTT is in the process of being delivered to Australia. “This time, we have an even better case as the aircraft is certified flown and proven,” says Airbus Military spokeswoman Barbara Kracht. “An added advantage of the A330 is it is a proven platform with over 80 Operators.”

Airbus says the MRTT can be equipped with a combination of an aerial refueling boom system for receptacle-equipped receiver aircraft, Cobham 905E/805E under-wing refueling pods for probe-equipped receiver aircraft, and a universal aerial refueling receptacle system for self-refueling.

The new RFP falls under India’s Defense Procurement Procedures 2010 regime.

EADS

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 28 Jan 2011 03:28

nachiket wrote:one of the partners, Turkey seriously considering pulling out

Utterly false, in fact they're increasing their order.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 35-program

nachiket wrote:and the UKstanis cancelling their order for the STOVL version.

And replacing it with the CATOBAR version . . .

Reports of the F-35's demise are greatly exaggerated.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 28 Jan 2011 03:30

Juggi G wrote:
Airbus says the MRTT can be equipped with a combination of an aerial refueling boom system for receptacle-equipped receiver aircraft, Cobham 905E/805E under-wing refueling pods for probe-equipped receiver aircraft, and a universal aerial refueling receptacle system for self-refueling.

Well it's no news that it CAN be fit with those items, the question is: does the RFP actually ask for those items?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jan 2011 03:42

GeorgeWelch wrote: Reports of the F-35's demise are greatly exaggerated.

Gates had put it on life-support sometime back (when he placed the Marines version "The F-35B is "on the equivalent of a two-year probation," Gates said.").

However, you are right, in that the rest of the program will move on, Jan 27, 2011:

U.S. defense sec says happy with F-35 jet progress

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Jan 2011 03:43

GeorgeWelch wrote:
nachiket wrote:and the UKstanis cancelling their order for the STOVL version.
And replacing it with the CATOBAR version . . .

Reports of the F-35's demise are greatly exaggerated.

George, In the recent AFM and ACM mags there have been two very detailed articles on JSF the cuts in JSF were all part of their SDSR and it mentions that the numbers for the F35 B were in the region of 130 whereas the F 35 C that will take over will only be ordered in numbers of around 60.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 28 Jan 2011 03:57

andy B wrote:George, In the recent AFM and ACM mags there have been two very detailed articles on JSF the cuts in JSF were all part of their SDSR and it mentions that the numbers for the F35 B were in the region of 130 whereas the F 35 C that will take over will only be ordered in numbers of around 60.

And even with all the cuts it will still be the largest fighter program on the planet. All other fighters wish they could be as 'troubled'

One variant (B) has serious issues (and latest reports say even those issues are fixable), but there is no question of the program as a whole getting cancelled.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2011 05:00

GW,

I don't think any serious enthusiast would think that F-35 would be cancelled. There are only so many 5th gen planes being built. Amongst the NATO countries, F-35 is the only one being built now. So yes, I believe we will see F-35s in numbers.

Question is will India join the bandwagon if given a chance? In my opinion no, and quite frankly a big no. I can't see a need. I can see harm though.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Jan 2011 05:23

Slightly old articles in AFM and Air Intl on Indian Migs and other Russ a/c in service

http://ifile.it/9djsxk4/Mig%20Artilcle% ... tional.rar
http://ifile.it/n5fo9hm/Mig%20Article%202%20AFM.rar

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jan 2011 09:21

X post

Fitting reply to US 5th gen offer BS

With own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia, India not keen on US jet
Times of India

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Jan 2011 09:30

andy B wrote:Slightly old articles in AFM and Air Intl on Indian Migs and other Russ a/c in service

http://ifile.it/9djsxk4/Mig%20Artilcle% ... tional.rar
http://ifile.it/n5fo9hm/Mig%20Article%202%20AFM.rar

could you fix the link on the first rar file please ?