PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

[ravar]

Okay, though OT, copying my reply here for the benefit of lurkers and those among the gullible public who may take a fancy to DavidD's 'Chinese therapy'-

Roundworm isn't a good idea, but eating some tapeworms is actually a fairly safe and effective way of reducing weight, IIRC.

Jamwal You're a medical student ..right ?
One of my friend's relatives had a tapeworm infection. The worm reached his brain and had to be surgically removed,
I never believed when some people said Chinese will eat anything.

David That's probably a pig tapeworm(Taenia solium), cow tapeworm(Taenia saginata) is pretty harmless. That was actually one of the test questions I had not so long ago, both pig and cow tapeworms were choices. You know, I actually thought about clarifying that, but I didn't think anybody on the board would care about the differences! So yeah, don't ever eat pig tapeworm, cysterci in the brain are bad stuff! Oh, and it's not just the Chinese who've tried this, check this pic I got from my lecture slides:

Actually, I had left the first post of yours without censure. But, since you continue to push and justify this 'therapy', I have no other choice but to refute it.

To start with, I am surprised that you did your medical studies in the US since what you recommend above is banned in civilized countries and you would have faced music had you prescribed this for your patients (except of course in China where everything under the sun can be eaten, including these worms (both round and tape)which are of faecal origin!).

And you try to substantiate that by providing a slide printed in the 1920s??!!

Check this out-

http://www.helium.com/items/1761958-dan ... eworm-diet

Naturally, it would also ingest the vitamins and minerals too, leaving the host totally malnourished...
The original tapeworms were offered as small tablets to swallow, which would then emerge from its wrappings in the stomach and develop onto a 25ft plus tapeworm.
Both worm eggs and tapeworm segments are excreted in bodily waste, but there would be no guarantee of eggs purchased in the black market toilets being sanitized enough (with the kind of quality control that we find in China with melamine tainted milk, well...)

So the take is, this is the 'solution' that is being touted and currently followed by the Chinese for reducing weight- a totally malnourished subject with a 25 foot monster fished out of $hit, sitting in his stomach sucking his very life out...!

Sometimes, I feel that the devious scheming of the Chinese in cultivating a seemingly 'symbiotic' relationship with terrorist Pak, NoKo and other tinpot dictator vermins/worms of the world to meet their own selfish ends (short term benefit but long term disaster for themselves) doesn't have a root cause after all, in their way of thinking as reflected here! The analogy is hard to miss, the 'symbiotic' (which Chinese would want to believe) is actually a 'parasitic' relationship!

[Aditya_V]

Phew, the thought of a parasitic worm inside my body sent shivers down my body, how can anyone think of swallowing these worms, sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

[wrdos]

Chinese government just released the 2010 economic data.

The Chinese 2010 GDP was estimated as 39.798 trillion yuan which equals to US$6.04 trillion by the current exchanging rate.

[jamwal]

Impressive

[DavidD]

Okay, though OT, copying my reply here for the benefit of lurkers and those among the gullible public who may take a fancy to DavidD's 'Chinese therapy'-

Roundworm isn't a good idea, but eating some tapeworms is actually a fairly safe and effective way of reducing weight, IIRC.

Jamwal You're a medical student ..right ?
One of my friend's relatives had a tapeworm infection. The worm reached his brain and had to be surgically removed,
I never believed when some people said Chinese will eat anything.

David That's probably a pig tapeworm(Taenia solium), cow tapeworm(Taenia saginata) is pretty harmless. That was actually one of the test questions I had not so long ago, both pig and cow tapeworms were choices. You know, I actually thought about clarifying that, but I didn't think anybody on the board would care about the differences! So yeah, don't ever eat pig tapeworm, cysterci in the brain are bad stuff! Oh, and it's not just the Chinese who've tried this, check this pic I got from my lecture slides:

Actually, I had left the first post of yours without censure. But, since you continue to push and justify this 'therapy', I have no other choice but to refute it.

To start with, I am surprised that you did your medical studies in the US since what you recommend above is banned in civilized countries and you would have faced music had you prescribed this for your patients (except of course in China where everything under the sun can be eaten, including these worms (both round and tape)which are of faecal origin!).

And you try to substantiate that by providing a slide printed in the 1920s??!!

Check this out-

http://www.helium.com/items/1761958-dan ... eworm-diet

Naturally, it would also ingest the vitamins and minerals too, leaving the host totally malnourished...
The original tapeworms were offered as small tablets to swallow, which would then emerge from its wrappings in the stomach and develop onto a 25ft plus tapeworm.
Both worm eggs and tapeworm segments are excreted in bodily waste, but there would be no guarantee of eggs purchased in the black market toilets being sanitized enough (with the kind of quality control that we find in China with melamine tainted milk, well...)

So the take is, this is the 'solution' that is being touted and currently followed by the Chinese for reducing weight- a totally malnourished subject with a 25 foot monster fished out of $hit, sitting in his stomach sucking his very life out...!

Sometimes, I feel that the devious scheming of the Chinese in cultivating a seemingly 'symbiotic' relationship with terrorist Pak, NoKo and other tinpot dictator vermins/worms of the world to meet their own selfish ends (short term benefit but long term disaster for themselves) doesn't have a root cause after all, in their way of thinking as reflected here! The analogy is hard to miss, the 'symbiotic' (which Chinese would want to believe) is actually a 'parasitic' relationship!

You need to chill out a bit man All I meant to say was that scientifically speaking, eating tapeworms isn't as bad as it might sound!

[zlin]

Capitalists are just loving Communist China. The big CEOs who attended the white house state dinner for Chinese president are:

Mr. Steven Ballmer, Microsoft, Redmond, WA
Mrs. Connie Ballmer

Mr. Lloyd Blankfein, Goldman Sachs, New York, NY
Mrs. Laura Blankfein


Mr. Greg Brown, Motorola, Schaumburg, IL
Mrs. Anna-Louise Brown

Mr. Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase & Co., New York, NY
Mrs. Judith Dimon

Mr. Robert Iger, The Walt Disney Company, Burbank, CA
Ms. Willow Bay

Mr. Jeff Immelt, General Electric, Fairfield, CT
Mrs. Andrea Immelt

Mr. Muhtar Kent, Coca-Cola, Atlanta, GA

Ms. Ellen Kullman, DuPont, Wilmington, DE
Mr. Michael Kullman

Mr. Andrew N. Liveris, The Dow Chemical Company, Midland, MI
Mrs. Paula Liveris

Mr. W. James McNerney, The Boeing Company, Chicago, IL
Mrs. Haity McNerney

Mr. Paul Otellini, Intel, Santa Clara, CA
Mrs. Sandy Otellini

Ms. Azita Raji, JP Morgan Securities, Inc., Belvedere, CA
Mr. Gary Syman

Mr. David M. Rubenstein, The Carlyle Group, Washington, D.C.
Mrs. Alice Rubenstein

Mr. John Thornton, The Brookings Institution, HSBC North America, Palm Beach
, FL
Mrs. Margaret Thornton

Ms. Anna Wintour, Vogue Magazine, New York, NY
Mr. Shelby Bryan


The reason is like this
China to buy Boeing planes worth $19 bn
(AFP) – 12 hours ago

WASHINGTON — China plans to buy 200 Boeing aircraft worth an estimated $19 billion, the White House said Wednesday during a state visit by President Hu Jintao to the United States.

The order includes 737 medium-range and 777 long-range jets, Boeing said in a statement confirming the deal.

The aircraft will be delivered over the three-year period 2011-2013, Boeing said.

"Boeing is pleased to have received final approval today from the Chinese Government confirming a $19 billion aircraft agreement," it said.

Boeing jets comprise more than half of all commercial jetliners operating in China, the company said.

If forecast that China's air travel and cargo system will need 4,330 new aircraft over the next 20 years, worth more than $480 billion.

"We value China's support for our products and its confidence in Boeing," said Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Jim Albaugh.

[Ambar]

Zlinulla, since you seem to be following Hu's visit to states closely, did you also hear the opinion voiced by another well known capitalist,Donald Trump on CNBC today?

[DavidD]

You need to chill out a bit man All I meant to say was that scientifically speaking, eating tapeworms isn't as bad as it might sound!

OT:
Dude, you are a complete fraud. Why claim a medical education when you have clue? (I don't, but don't claim to be a Doc).
Tapeworms, even your supposedly benign "Cow Tapeworms" WILL lodge themselves in secondary carriers-- they can cause serious issues. One of our acquaintances recently recovered from one such incident -- it was lodged in his brain. Not as bad as it sounds??? D'bag.

Lol, right, you have no friggin clue what your acquaintance had. Why don't you do some research before getting back at me. Let's start with something easy:

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Taeniasis

Symptoms
Tapeworm infection usually does not cause any symptoms. People often realize they are infected when they pass segments of the worm in their stool, especially if the segments are moving.

See? Gross, but not really dangerous.

Complications
Rarely, worms can cause a blockage in the intestine.
If pork tapeworm larvae move out of the intestine, they can cause local growths and damage tissues such as the brain, eye, or heart. This condition is called cysticercosis. Infection of the brain can cause seizures and other nervous system problems.

Note the PORK tapeworm part. So would you please compare the symptoms and complications of a cow tapeworm infection with that of obesity, obesity related illnesses(high BP, high cholesterol, etc.), and the side effects of drugs for treating obesity and obesity related illnesses? Then tell me, scientifically speaking, is eating cow tapeworm so bad? I mean, nothing beats diet and exercise, but it's not as bad as it may sound.

The question on my test specifically asked which of the following could migrate to the CNS(brain, spinal cord, etc.), and pig tapeworm was the only answer. I think I'm gonna have a bit more faith in my medical school education than some anecdotal "evidence" you present.

BTW, I never claimed to be a doctor, I said I was attending medical school, not finished with it yet! Also, I thought Indians don't even eat cows.

[PrasadZ]

BTW, I never claimed to be a doctor, I said I was attending medical school, not finished with it yet! Also, I thought Indians don't even eat cows.

Indians (and most humans) dont eat cow worms either
But its only a Chinese "not finished with medical school" who needs to justify one random behavior point of a few amongst his billion country-people to feel good for the day

[Chinmayanand]

OT !!!
What is better, eating a tapeworm or a fellow chinese who tastes better when broiled than boiled ?
Cheeni drones must be knowing better...

Cannibalism in China

Descriptions of cannibalism appear repeatedly in Chinese history, in numerous historical writings and literature, and most recently during the Cultural Revolution in the testimony of Cheng I, the Chinese film producer and writer who fled to Hong Kong in the spring of 1992 and sought asylum in the United States in 1993.

In his book Shokujin Enseki - Massatsu sareta Chugoku Gendaishi (Cannibal Banquet - Modern Chinese History Erased) (Tokyo: Kodansha Kappa Books, 1993), Cheng I describes in detail how, as a young Red Guard during the Cultural Revolution in south China, he witnessed hundreds of children, women and men classified as Counter-revolutionaries killed and eaten by the perpetrators, with such comments as "human meat tastes better when broiled than boiled."

In the recently published collection of studies Chugoku Igaishi, historian Okada Hidehiro quotes passages from the classic Ming dynasty (1368-1644) novel Water Margin, also known as All Men Are Created Equal, describing a group of villains who sell human meat as beef, as well as other characters who eat human flesh.

According to Okada, King Chu of the Ying dynasty (11th century BC) is alleged to have made salted meat and dried meat out of two feudal lords, as well as soup out of son of King Wen of Zhou, which he made King Wen eat.

During times of severe famine, a frequent occurence in China, cannibalism became marked.

The Great Historian Sima Qian records that in 594BC people ate each other's children and the dead in the walled city of Song, when it was beseiged by the Chu army.

In the 9th century, towards the end of the Tang dynasty (618-906) a Persian trader reported that human flesh was being sold openly in markets.

During the 12th century, it was said that 15 jin (1 jin = 1.323lbs) of dried meat was obtained from one human being.

Towards the turbulent close of Yuan dynasty (1276-1368), it was said that children's meat was best, then women's, and the least were men's.

Cannibalism was practiced not merely for sheer survival, but also as a means of revenge. Lu Xun (1881-1936) recounts such a case in his work ...., in which a revolutionary was killed in 1907 and his heart eaten by an enemy. This incident may have also inspired Lu Xun to write his celebrated novel Diary of a Madman (1918), in which cannibalism sevres as an analogy for the decrepit state of modern China.

The Chinese also believed medicinal benefits could be obtained from eating human flesh, and the benefits are described in their 16th century medicinal book Bencao Ganmu.

[ravar]

You need to chill out a bit man All I meant to say was that scientifically speaking, eating tapeworms isn't as bad as it might sound!

"scientifically speaking, eating tapeworms, isn't as bad as it might sound". The extent to which these trolleys go! (chor daande ulte kotwal ko!)

Go ahead, you have "scientific proof" to 'back up' (pun intended). Wishing the Chinese a very happy "scientific" itching and scratching at the orifices

[Shankas]

Question
Does Chinese President Hu Jintao have a spouse? I did not see anybody accompanying him in this trip.

[praksam]

Foreigners who travel to China often come back with grizzly tales of the weird and wonderful things they had to eat there: silk worms, dried seahorses or even sheep penises.

http://observers.france24.com/content/2 ... ing-street

and this is what happens after someone eats the penis of a sheep

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTEzODA3ODU2.html

[praksam]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODYyMTQ2MzY=.html

Encounter chinese style.

[Katare]

Grow up guys!

[hnair]

Question
Does Chinese President Hu Jintao have a spouse? I did not see anybody accompanying him in this trip.

Perhaps she fell ill after trying Dr. No's famous Tapeworm diet.

Dont insult the First Lady with such conspiracy theories, ye Dalai-cliquer, she was very much there during the trip. Infact she was keeping Mr Hu slim and fit from the inside. And whomever whispers "mail order bride" is a Fallen Gongi fit for tank testing

[Prem]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d50a634c-249c ... ab49a.html
Chinese sovereign debt to be sold in Japan

Japan’s army of small investors will this month get their first taste of renminbi-denominated Chinese government bonds when Monex, the country’s largest online brokerage, becomes its first distributor of such debt.Monex is betting that the intensifying speculation that Beijing will allow its currency to appreciate over the next few years will encourage wealthy Japanese individuals to buy the three-year debt. The bonds are a portion of Beijing’s Rmb8bn debt issuance in Hong Kong last December, of which there was a Rmb2bn portion of three-year (Y25bn, $303.6m) Beijing has been making moves to slowly internationalise the renminbi and is using Hong Kong as a testing ground for international companies and investors to hold and trade renminbi products. A number of international companies have issued renminbi bonds in Hong Kong and December’s Chinese government bond issue in the territory was Beijing’s second, the first being in 2009.

[DavidD]

Grow up guys!

I think I'm gonna follow your advice and take the high road on this one.

[Theo_Fidel]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 77830.html

What Lies Beneath 10.3% Growth

House prices in Beijing and Shanghai have risen at least 50% in the past couple of years. In November, consumer price inflation (CPI) hit a record by increasing 5.1% year-on-year. Thursday's official data show that in December, CPI rose 4.6%, though many analysts doubt this is an accurate gauge.

Unofficially, inflation could be far worse. CPI doesn't capture housing rents well; rapidly rising education and health-care costs aren't accurately depicted either. As a result consumer confidence, surveyed by Ezi Data, an independent agency, slumped in the October-December quarter as higher prices ate into real incomes. With food prices rising faster than 10% on an annual basis, poorer households are hit the hardest.

And yet none of this is likely to be enough in the short run. Although December CPI fell a bit from November, inflation is likely to push up again over the next three months. Despite the best efforts of regulators and monetary authorities, the three months of 2010 saw a reacceleration of credit growth—it hit 1.7 trillion yuan last quarter from 1.6 trillion yuan the quarter before.

Grain prices have pushed up by 15% year-on-year. Imported inflation, particularly oil, is heading up again. And every businessman in China seems concerned that hot money—courtesy of the U.S. Federal Reserve's quantitative easing program—will flood the economy. If China wants to push back on these extra inflationary pressures, it will have to up its administrative-control ante.

All this raise a fundamental question: All other things being equal, if China's 10.3% growth comes with such aches and worries, what is its worry-free growth rate—if there is one? Mr. Hu and his successors are sure to be racked by the question of how fast China can sustainably grow.

Because of some of these factors—labor and productivity could be a structural change—China will soon manage only 7% to 8% growth. It could get worse. One risk is that if Beijing doesn't continue with reform—such as opening up the service sector to competition as the next area of the economy ripe for investment and expansion—the growth rate could be less than 7%. That may still be impressive by Western standards, but the danger is that it's insufficient to keep pace with Chinese people's aspirations for higher incomes. The other risk is that if Beijing tries to achieve its traditionally high growth rates by pouring ever more investment into the same sectors, that would be a recipe for more inflation and a bigger asset bubble.

This how these things end - pour more and more money to get less and less growth for more and more inflation.

[RamaT]

Chanos on why Chinese economic mix is unsustainable.

http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2011/01 ... .cnnmoney/

[krisna]

China Grows 10 Percent Again: Is This Believable?

[krisna]

Hedge funds bet China is a bubble close to bursting

The manager, who wanted to remain anonymous, said: “The Chinese delegation has said all week that there will be double-digit growth for years to come and the Brits have lapped it up. But the data doesn’t add up. We think we’ve experienced credit bubbles over the past few years, but China is the biggest. And yet the global economy is looking to China as not just a crutch but a springboard out of the recession. It’s crazy.”

There have been academics and analysts who have argued about the dangers of China’s economy overheating for some time. But for many, the fact that hedge funds, particularly those with track records on previous crises, are launching specific funds is the sign that the bubble is close to bursting.
One academic said: “Economists have contrarian views all the time. But these hedge funds have their shirts on the line and do their analysis carefully. The flurry of 'distress China’ funds is a sign to sit up.”
More analysts are becoming bearish too. Last week, Lombard Street Research put out a note warning of China’s “already dangerously home-grown inflation”.
The analysts said figures showing the continuing boom in China were far from welcome: “On the contrary, Chinese policymakers have to slam on the brakes.” The financiers are warning that rather than depending on China as the prop of the recovery plan, Britain needs to be braced for another shock.

[Pranav]

Folks, we should not be too hard on our esteemed guests, imho.
(ducking for cover)

[PrasadZ]

+1 to pranav !
The forum is filled with negativity against ccp. Nothing wrong with that. But there is value in a more nuanced understanding as well. Just having the argument forces to confront their perspective.
No name calling against individual posters though

[RamaT]

This isn't about jumping on the bandwagon and hoping for a major Chinese failure.

It's about understanding how they are doing economically, in a global economy their failures will be felt by all and the negative impact will affect livelihoods, whether in Shanghai, New Delhi or New York.

In 1990 China and India had roughly the same GDP, 20 years later China's numbers show that to be a 4:1 advantage in their favor. No matter how you cut it, this is astounding. But when looking at this it is important to remember a wise saying, 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.'

The Chinese economy and government is like no other, they have much greater control over the levers and forces within their economy and can jail/kill people with impunity as tools to enforce policy goals with very little repercussions.

In this context, not pointing out structural issues and roadblocks in the continuation of the 'story' is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.

Will China continue its run, will it face a recession? Is the run fabricated, or is their economy on strong enough footing to continue for the next decade or two?

These are the fundamental questions that will take shape over the next two - four years and their answers will have repercussions, not just economically but also geopolitically and militarily. The nature of the Chinese state means that if their economic miracle starts failing they will need external pressure to maintain the CPC so that the citizenry does not revolt. The easiest way to do this is war.

So, in closing. Raining on their parade is not the goal, having a realistic assessment of their circumstance is. This will affect the lives of our people both figuratively and literally.

[svinayak]

In 1990 China and India had roughly the same GDP, 20 years later China's numbers show that to be a 4:1 advantage in their favor. No matter how you cut it, this is astounding. But when looking at this it is important to remember a wise saying, 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.'

Will China continue its run, will it face a recession? Is the run fabricated, or is their economy on strong enough footing to continue for the next decade or two?

Just the revision of GDP itself has added some 50% of the increase in the last 10 years

[Abhijeet]

All these stats are faked, of course, but interesting nonetheless.

Oh Its Fast! China’s Broadband Growth, That Is

457 million broadband users.
303 million mobile web users.
125 million rural Internet users.

[DavidD]

China appears to be trying to create some mega-cities. First up will be the Pearl River Delta region:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eople.html

City planners in south China have laid out an ambitious plan to merge together the nine cities that lie around the Pearl River Delta.
The "Turn The Pearl River Delta Into One" scheme will create a 16,000 sq mile urban area that is 26 times larger geographically than Greater London, or twice the size of Wales.
The new mega-city will cover a large part of China's manufacturing heartland, stretching from Guangzhou to Shenzhen and including Foshan, Dongguan, Zhongshan, Zhuhai, Jiangmen, Huizhou and Zhaoqing. Together, they account for nearly a tenth of the Chinese economy.
Over the next six years, around 150 major infrastructure projects will mesh the transport, energy, water and telecommunications networks of the nine cities together, at a cost of some 2 trillion yuan (£190 billion). An express rail line will also connect the hub with nearby Hong Kong.

Looking at the map, Hong Kong will likely be more or less incorporated into this mega city. The Beijing-Tianjin area and the Shanghai area will be other targets.

[abhischekcc]

^Amazing

[vera_k]

Kudos. This is the future, and its good to see a plan to make it happen.

[RamaT]

China Will Face Crisis Within 5 Years, 45% of Investors Say

Global investors are bracing for the end of China’s relentless economic growth, with 45 percent saying they expect a financial crisis there within five years.

An additional 40 percent anticipate a Chinese crisis after 2016, according to a quarterly poll of 1,000 Bloomberg customers who are investors, traders or analysts. Only 7 percent are confident China will indefinitely escape turmoil.

“There is no doubt that China is in the midst of a speculative credit-driven bubble that cannot be sustained,” says Stanislav Panis, a currency strategist at TRIM Broker in Bratislava, Slovakia, and a participant in the Bloomberg Global Poll, which was conducted Jan. 21-24. Panis likens the expected fallout to the aftermath of the U.S. subprime-mortgage meltdown.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-2 ... F-OK&pos=1

[Suraj]

Somebody at CCTV is going to be flying rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong now, to quote from the movie:
CCTV shows Top Gun clips as PLAAF training footage

[DavidD]

China Will Face Crisis Within 5 Years, 45% of Investors Say

Global investors are bracing for the end of China’s relentless economic growth, with 45 percent saying they expect a financial crisis there within five years.

An additional 40 percent anticipate a Chinese crisis after 2016, according to a quarterly poll of 1,000 Bloomberg customers who are investors, traders or analysts. Only 7 percent are confident China will indefinitely escape turmoil.

“There is no doubt that China is in the midst of a speculative credit-driven bubble that cannot be sustained,” says Stanislav Panis, a currency strategist at TRIM Broker in Bratislava, Slovakia, and a participant in the Bloomberg Global Poll, which was conducted Jan. 21-24. Panis likens the expected fallout to the aftermath of the U.S. subprime-mortgage meltdown.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-2 ... F-OK&pos=1

Lol, what geniuses...so 93% of analysts think that China will have a financial crisis at some point of time. Real geniuses I tell ya

[vina]

Hmm . Was watching the movie Mission Impossible III , which was shot in Shanghai.

Rather than the "Architectural Chic" and basically lifeless Pudong and the show case rubbish, there were scenese along a small river/canal with street side houses, shops, walkways, very old looking bridges, crowded streets , ordinary Shanghai folks living life..

The riverfront/canal areas were so full of life , history,culture and genuineness, rather than the faux make believe disney world of Pudong, I would definitely hang out and spend lot more time in the old style Hutons of Shanghai, rather than Pudong.

But hell no.. The CPC will decide one day, that that area needs "development" and "plogress" and they will bulldoze those areas, put in some 10 high rises with parking lots and the entire place sanitized and folks kicked out to some ugly concrete blockhouses, some 50/100 kms from where they are and resell that highrises that come up in their place for 100 times the cost (land free anyways) and call it as "more plogress".. Sad, but I guess, atleast take a chance to visit and experience the real thing before it disappears I guess.

[DavidD]

Hmm . Was watching the movie Mission Impossible III , which was shot in Shanghai.

Rather than the "Architectural Chic" and basically lifeless Pudong and the show case rubbish, there were scenese along a small river/canal with street side houses, shops, walkways, very old looking bridges, crowded streets , ordinary Shanghai folks living life..

The riverfront/canal areas were so full of life , history,culture and genuineness, rather than the faux make believe disney world of Pudong, I would definitely hang out and spend lot more time in the old style Hutons of Shanghai, rather than Pudong.

But hell no.. The CPC will decide one day, that that area needs "development" and "plogress" and they will bulldoze those areas, put in some 10 high rises with parking lots and the entire place sanitized and folks kicked out to some ugly concrete blockhouses, some 50/100 kms from where they are and resell that highrises that come up in their place for 100 times the cost (land free anyways) and call it as "more plogress".. Sad, but I guess, atleast take a chance to visit and experience the real thing before it disappears I guess.

Why stop with China? I for one hope India would tear down all its ugly concrete buildings and burn all the electronics. Too bad those damn Indians want cars and cellphones and shiz, why can't they just all go back to living in the villages? I'd love to visit such a place! It'd be full of history and culture, and it'd give me a great reflection of the past, complete with poverty, malnutrition, and all!

[vina]

Why stop with China? I for one hope India would tear down all its ugly concrete buildings and burn all the electronics. Too bad those damn Indians want cars and cellphones and shiz, why can't they just all go back to living in the villages?

Suffice to say that you are confused on what is progress and modernity and what is really modern and what is make believe. Who says that you cant have cars and cell phones and modern living with heritage, culture and community preserved and intact. In fact, in places like Germany, Netherlands, Italy , France and much of Europe which are as cutting edge and high tech and enjoy some of the highest standards of material living anywhere in the world, many people live in houses some of which are more than 400 years old and have been in their families! Why part of the allure of NYC and places like Boston is their downtowns going back to colonial era America and their cobble stone streets and rich history!

Try looking at any postcard picture of the old mediaeval city center of any decently prosperous European country to understand what I mean.

The Chinese seem to have bought into the faux ideas of modernity. Modernity is in thought and behavior more than any thing else. Or else it is just a veneer. For eg, you can take an average Arab off the desert tent and put him in a massive sky scraper with all material comforts within a generation (like that happened in the middle east). But is such a person really "modern" , or someone with a medieval mindset who by magic and for reasons totally unrelated to him got very rich indeed , and is essentially behind all the material trappings really mediaeval (like your tarrel than mountains Pakistani friends) ?

I'd love to visit such a place! It'd be full of history and culture, and it'd give me a great reflection of the past, complete with poverty, malnutrition, and all!

Well, the CPC and your propaganda minstry with it's justification and legitimacy to rule being "bringing prosperity " will always try to justify and dub China's history before the CPC as "poverty,malnutrition and ignorance". But that is only part of the story. What about the splendor and rich heritage and high culture and learning and allt he good things about China, that emerged and thrived for millenia from those very same hutongs?. The CPC is very selective. To pump up Chinese natioanlism and irredentist claims on Taiwan, Tibet, East Turkestan (aka XinJiang), S. China sea and all else, you invoke the glories of ancient and pre CPC China and claim that since some X00 years ago ,some king in Tibet paid tribute to some imperial court in Beijing, Tibet is part of China Today, while at the same time rubbishing that China of old.

Sorry. Wont do. Compared to what was historically accomplished in China earlier, the CPC and it's minions are tiny pip squeaks who will rule for probably a 100 odd years before being flushed away in history as an aberration /detritus of history and future generations will remember it for 2 things.. 1) The brutalities and depredations of Mao Tse Dong and the reformism and dyanmism of Deng 2) The later day johnnie come latelys like Hu Jin Tao and others who try to hold back a rising tide by miliatry force and that Tianenmen Square I in 1989 was just a first popular uprising that was a precursor to the later ones that swept the thuggish CPC brutes out of power (hint look across to Tunisia, Egypt and I would guess Jordan and later Bahrain, and finally S.Arabia as examples where repressive regimes survived 40/50/60 years before kicking the bucket).

[vina]

Oh BTW, the people in the riverfront/canal front in Mission Impossible III seemed extremely civilized indeed. Between visiting Dubai and a genuine human interest tourist place, I would pick that Shanghai hutongs anyday ,and probably walk into a dimsum place like in Chinatown in Manhattan , where you sit and get served dim sums of various kinds in those small wooden baskets, you eat as much as you want (I had no idea what was in those dimsums, I just ate them all as they came..) and then at the end of it all, they count the baskets piled on your table and make your check to pay! Funny thing was usually none of waiters etc spoke English (recent immigrants, maybe illegals, who knows, who cares), but all the same, a great experience! Singapore too is a great experience in Chinese culture , though much of it too fell to the Shanghai "plogress" kind of madness much earlier, a pity I think.

[wig]

'China syndrome' means country faces dangerous property bubble
One of China's leading economists has said that the country is facing the possibility of a dangerous real-estate bubble and rising inflation which could put growth at risk.

Yu Yongding, senior fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS) and former member of the monetary policy committee of the People's Bank of China, said that the demand for new property was so high that prices were in danger of soaring out of control.

Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Mr Yongding said that China's authorities would have to act to calm the market and that the rate of growth would have to be lowered: "Definitely inflation is the biggest concern so far. At the same time we are concerned about a real estate bubble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/chin ... ubble.html

[Theo_Fidel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/busin ... trade.html

Inflation is starting to slow China’s mighty export machine, as buyers from Western multinational companies balk at higher prices and have cut back their planned spring shipments across the Pacific.

Markups of 20 to 50 percent on products like leather shoes and polo shirts have sent Western buyers scrambling for alternate suppliers. But from Vietnam to India, few low-wage developing countries can match China’s manufacturing might — and no country offers refuge from high global commodity prices.

Already, the slowdown in American orders has forced some container shipping lines to cancel up to a quarter of their planned sailings to the United States this spring from Hong Kong and other Chinese ports.

The wage increases are also driven by a growing scarcity of factory workers. The number of Chinese in their 20s and early 30s, the traditional age bracket for factory labor, is slowly shrinking because of the introduction of the “one child system” a generation ago. And a rapidly expanding university system has produced waves of graduates with no interest in factory work.

Some companies have responded by moving factories deeper into China’s interior, said Stanley Lau, the deputy chairman of the Federation of Hong Kong Industries, which represents exporters employing 10 million mainland Chinese workers. But inland wages are starting to catch up with coastal pay rates, Mr. Lau said, while higher transportation costs frequently offset the wage savings from moving to the interior.

[amit]

Oh BTW, the people in the riverfront/canal front in Mission Impossible III seemed extremely civilized indeed. Between visiting Dubai and a genuine human interest tourist place, I would pick that Shanghai hutongs anyday ,and probably walk into a dimsum place like in Chinatown in Manhattan , where you sit and get served dim sums of various kinds in those small wooden baskets, you eat as much as you want (I had no idea what was in those dimsums, I just ate them all as they came..) and then at the end of it all, they count the baskets piled on your table and make your check to pay! Funny thing was usually none of waiters etc spoke English (recent immigrants, maybe illegals, who knows, who cares), but all the same, a great experience! Singapore too is a great experience in Chinese culture , though much of it too fell to the Shanghai "plogress" kind of madness much earlier, a pity I think.

Vina,

You missed the most juicy bit about the Mission Impossible 3 saga. After giving an enthusiastic go-ahead to the shooting of the film with the hope that it would project China's image, the CPC seriously considered banning it from being screened in China (dunno if it was eventually screened but I think not). You know why? It's for showing the houtongs which you rightly praise as something which looks real instead of sterile Pudong.

This report says this:

The Beijing Times said: “In the Shanghai scenes all the roofs and alleys have raggedy clothes hanging from bamboo sticks everywhere.” Many viewers had found the scenes shot in Shanghai and the village of Xitang “inappropriate”, given that both locations were used as sites for the storage of chemical weapons by the film villains.

Here's another report saying the same

The factors of the film that are bothering the Chinese Film Bureau include images of Shanghai that show tattered clothes on bamboos rods and a sloppy police force.

This one is even more hilarious:

China's State Administration of Radio, Film and Television (SARFT), has not yet approve the mainland release of the action thriller, due to scenes showing "raggedy" underwear hanging out to dry, as well as locations including Shanghai and Xitang being displayed in a less than glowing light.

The basic point which David and other Chinese who post here don't realise is that it's not only money which can get you superpowerdom. You can't be incredibly thinskinned like the CPC is now and expect to be taken seriously just because you've got a fat wallet. Folks will kowtow to you to take your money but they will never take you seriously.

For good or bad the US has been a super power for so long because it has dominated the entire spectrum of thought leadership and a lot of that has stemmed from the fact that it allows a critical appraisal of itself. Heck, just see some of the jokes that they make about their own president publicly. Can you think of poking fun at Hu or even the local town mayor?

Sorry but the universal idea is that folks who lack self-confidence are the ones who are so image conscious.

Contrast that with Slumdog Millionaire. Thousands of folks in India raved and ranted about the depiction of slums in Mumbai and the supposed (supposed because I don't subscribe to it, but that's another matter) poverty voyeurism depicted in the film. But the idea of banning it because of that didn't even enter the public discourse though it showed Mumbai in a worse light - by several orders of magnitude - than what MI3 supposedly did to Shanghai.

India has a lot of warts and catching up to do in respect of China. But in self-confidence as a nation and civilization it is miles ahead.

You should pause to ask what has happened to the great soul of the Chinese civilization? A country that has given so much to the world is concerned just because international audiences would see ragged underwear hanging out to dry in their showcase city Shanghai? Where do the Chinese hang out their underwear anyway? In the bedroom?