India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Sanku]

Totally wrong example. In your case of charity, it is the charity fooling you. In case of this university, one look at the university after landing in US, a serious student would have complained right away.

Well considering that they came all that way for a degree and paid for it. Why should they?

It is hardly a crime for which harassment should be meted out.

If I know an action is illegal and l still do it if someone lets me do it, I won't be responsible for it.

Thats the crux, did they know? Based on evidence so far they did not.

Clearly, you didn't understand my argument. The director of the university, the chinese lady is still around, and so are the others behind the university. If the students really want to sue them, they sure can.

Yeah, in fact if you notice it is the GoTUS which is already suing them. Execpt that GoTUS is not keeping the woman in shackles.

Oh! You pay thousands of dollars to a university to get a good education, and you land up and see a single room university, and you are not outraged?? Is it the student was idiot or was it because he never came there to study anyway? No serious student worth his salt would have stayed back if he was there only for education.

As I said, why should they be? They came for a degree not education and it is entirely their choice. They are fully entitled to it.

The question is different, the question is

1) Did the students break a law after being informed that there was a law which was being broken? So far this does not appear to be the case since even GoTUS is not charging them.
2) Did the alleged misconduct need such inhuman treatment? Or did keeping passports in custody suffice?
3) Considering that the Univ itself is a fraud univ, but was not closed down, what is the culpability of GoTUS in the mess and their moral and ethical responsibility towards the victims.
4) Would whites me treated similarly for such minor alleged transgressions.

[Sanku]

I say they should all be put in G' Bay, that will teach them niggers, yes sir.

Saar, I take issue with this extremist statement. You are being extremely insensitive. Your choice of words is not in keeping with the agreed upon norms of decent behavior. Please apologize to these decent human beings for calling them the N word. Thank you.

[Dhiman]

Dhiman-ji, I stand before you as unworthy of legal knowledge that you may possess. However, my understanding is that the "collar" is a substitute for "bail". Now, bail does not imply guilt, only suspicion of guilt. So, please explain the "voilation". Regards.

In that case sir, who decides on the "bail" part? The police or the court?

F1 to H1 transition is always done by going out of the country. So they get out of country after F1 and enter with new contract and stamp of H1.

It is very rare for Indians not go for H1 stamp.

No Sir You can get transferred from F1 to H1 without going out of the country. The only reason you need to go out of the country is to get H-1B stamped on your passport

[GuruPrabhu]

4) Would whites me treated similarly for such minor alleged transgressions.

No Saar, whites would be given inner thigh massages. That is just my guess but you exalted Saar must have data to support this. My guess is that whites would be invited to White House (for Whites onlee) and given excellent chai-biskoot. Saar, I agree that this is a conspiracy against brown ishtudents onlee. We should not settle for a penny less than $100M per ishtudent. Thank you, Saar.

[Sanku]

Thank you for providing me with a ready made platform GuruPrabhu. You are a real asset in a debate. Bye

[putnanja]

The question is different, the question is

1) Did the students break a law after being informed that there was a law which was being broken? So far this does not appear to be the case since even GoTUS is not charging them.
2) Did the alleged misconduct need such inhuman treatment? Or did keeping passports in custody suffice?
3) Considering that the Univ itself is a fraud univ, but was not closed down, what is the culpability of GoTUS in the mess and their moral and ethical responsibility towards the victims.
4) Would whites me treated similarly for such minor alleged transgressions.

Ignorance of law is not a valid excuse for breaking law. If that was the case, everyone will use that defence .

Only 18 students are being radio-collared and investigated, not all 1500.

What is inhuman treatment? Putting a radio collar? So you would be ok with the 18 students were put in a immigration detention center?

The university was open only fortwo- three year before its activities were found out and it was shut down. The US government has opened a hot line to help genuine students transfer to other universities.

Whether black or white, they would be put in immigration detention centers. To avoid that, they have started using radio collars.

[ArmenT]

The question is different, the question is

1) Did the students break a law after being informed that there was a law which was being broken? So far this does not appear to be the case since even GoTUS is not charging them.
2) Did the alleged misconduct need such inhuman treatment? Or did keeping passports in custody suffice?
3) Considering that the Univ itself is a fraud univ, but was not closed down, what is the culpability of GoTUS in the mess and their moral and ethical responsibility towards the victims.
4) Would whites me treated similarly for such minor alleged transgressions.

1. You don't need to be informed that you're breaking a law. Ignorance of law is not an excuse, as far as the courts anywhere in the world are concerned. Imagine all the Cheeni students claiming that they didn't know that the laws prohibit driving any which way they want.
2. Depends on what the judge at the preliminary arraignment says and who he/she judges are flight risks. For example, if the authorities were to show at the preliminary hearing that some of these students had never attended a single day in this college, they would be treated differently before the trial hearings take place. Yes, you can be held in custody for suspicion of a crime.
3. Let the law take its course and see if the uni. is closed later.
4. Know of quite a few.

[GuruPrabhu]

Thank you for providing me with a ready made platform GuruPrabhu. You are a real asset in a debate. Bye

Thank you, Saar. A recommendation from you makes my day. I have tried to be an asset but your confirmation of my efforts is priceless. By the way, I posted long time ago that ignorance of a law is not a defense against breaking that law. Others are now making the same point but please remember that I made it first. It would mean a lot to me to have your endorsement. Bye, bye, Saar.

[Dhiman]

Only 18 students are being radio-collared and investigated, not all 1500.

Again sir, have these 18 students actually been charged in a court of law or did someone arbitrarily decide to put a dog tag on them?

What is inhuman treatment? Putting a radio collar? So you would be ok with the 18 students were put in a immigration detention center?

Yes, putting a radio collar is inhumane and as far as "Immigraiton Detention Centers" go, the less said the better. They have been actively criticized by favorite human rights bodies.

Given that at maximum these students might be in violation of their visa, the worst that can happen is that they can be deported provided that they decide not to leave voluntary themselves.

The university was open only fortwo- three year before its activities were found out and it was shut down. The US government has opened a hot line to help genuine students transfer to other universities.

Who decides which student is "genuine" and which student is not. The police or the court?

[putnanja]

Only 18 students are being radio-collared and investigated, not all 1500.

Again sir, have these 18 students actually been charged in a court of law or did someone arbitrarily decide to put a dog tag on them?

As someone else said earlier, the radio tag is equivalent to a bond. Couple of students said that they don't want the radio collar. They are now in detention center, and they can pay $8000-20000 bond and go out on bail. No one is forcing them to wear the dog tag. They are suspected of violating their visa terms, and so they either need to be in custody, or post bail, or wear the radio tag.

What is inhuman treatment? Putting a radio collar? So you would be ok with the 18 students were put in a immigration detention center?

Yes, putting a radio collar is inhumane and as far as "Immigraiton Detention Centers" go, the less said the better. They have been actively criticized by favorite human rights bodies.

Given that at maximum the these students might be in violation of their visa, the worst that can happen is that they can be deported provided that they decide not to leave voluntary themselves.

When people have been caught in violation of their visa, what is the alternative if you don't want radio tag or detention? Who will ensure that these people won't disappear somewhere deep into US and give the law a slip? And due process needs to be followed even when deporting. According the US laws, even illegal immigrants have to be given a hearing and their case heard before the judge orders them to be deported. The police cannot arbitrarily pick someone up from the streets and put them on the next available plane to their home country. They need to prove to the immigration court that the individual is either illegally in US or has violated their visa terms.

The university was open only fortwo- three year before its activities were found out and it was shut down. The US government has opened a hot line to help genuine students transfer to other universities.

Who decides which student is "genuine" and which student is not. The police or the court?

The police are charging the 18 students currently. The court will decide if they are guilty or innocent. The rest of the students have not been charged.

[ArmenT]

Again sir, have these 18 students actually been charged in a court of law or did someone arbitrarily decide to put a dog tag on them?

They don't have to be found guilty to be tagged. They can do it as a preliminary measure to make sure that the students don't disappear suddenly. Some may also have the option of paying a large amount of bail money.

What is inhuman treatment? Putting a radio collar? So you would be ok with the 18 students were put in a immigration detention center?

Yes, putting a radio collar is inhumane and as far as "Immigraiton Detention Centers" go, the less said the better. They have been actively criticized by favorite human rights bodies.

They have full freedom of movement to go around their neighborhood, as long as they don't try to give the authorities the slip and disappear. That's better than being cooped up in a detention center.

Who decides which student is "genuine" and which student is not. The police or the court?

Ultimate decision lies with the court.

[symontk]

Actual question is, in US who decides which Universtity is good or bad

When a visa is given, do the US Govt check if the Uty is good or bad? If not, why are they crying foul? If checked then US govt shouldnt have given the visa in first place

[Dhiman]

They have full freedom of movement to go around their neighborhood, as long as they don't try to give the authorities the slip and disappear. That's better than being cooped up in a detention center.

This is a visa violation case, so the option should have been to leave the country rather than being told: you can either go to jail or you can either wear this radio collar. There is reciprocity you know.

[putnanja]

They can't deport anyone without a court hearing. Plus if someone is deported for visa violation, they may never get US visa again.

Another issues that some of these studentsmay be really innocent , and the court may release them, so that they can transfer to another university.

[Dhiman]

They can't deport anyone without a court hearing. Plus if someone is deported for visa violation, they may never get US visa again.

Obviously India is not the only country with ridiculous set of rules and procedures. Self serving bureaucrazies are found everywhere.

[ArmenT]

This is a visa violation case, so the option should have been to leave the country rather than being told: you can either go to jail or you can either wear this radio collar. There is reciprocity you know.

Depends. They may be found innocent ater all and allowed to stay. On the other hand, if there's evidence produced that these 18 knew they were perpetuating a fraud (e.g.) say these guys gave a false residential address and never attended a single class, then there could be fines and jail time before deportation. Another reason for not giving the option for leaving, they can be used to turn in evidence to prosecute other people such as the university heads and the agents responsible for creating this fraud. My speculation only.

[Sanku]

Ignorance of law is not a valid excuse for breaking law. If that was the case, everyone will use that defence .

It is not a question of defense. This is a question of how law enforcement reacts. If a person has accidentally made a transgression, the court will view it different rather than a a wilful act.

Its a huge difference. The corner stone of law.

Only 18 students are being radio-collared and investigated, not all 1500.

So?

What is inhuman treatment? Putting a radio collar? So you would be ok with the 18 students were put in a immigration detention center?

Both are inhuman, they should have been produced before a magistrate, a bail surety taken, perhaps passport surrendered and told to report to police weekly.

More than enough action.

The university was open only fortwo- three year before its activities were found out and it was shut down. The US government has opened a hot line to help genuine students transfer to other universities.

Good, so the US govt is doing some things right, and for that I applaude its actions. I am not saying that they should not shut down the university.

However that does not absolve them of their responsibility to treat ALL students humanely.

Whether black or white, they would be put in immigration detention centers.

Please show me one incident of a such rules applied in a similar context on a white student.

[Sanku]

This is a visa violation case, so the option should have been to leave the country rather than being told: you can either go to jail or you can either wear this radio collar. There is reciprocity you know.

Depends. They may be found innocent ater all and allowed to stay. On the other hand, if there's evidence produced that these 18 knew they were perpetuating a fraud (e.g.) say these guys gave a false residential address and never attended a single class, then there could be fines and jail time before deportation. Another reason for not giving the option for leaving, they can be used to turn in evidence to prosecute other people such as the university heads and the agents responsible for creating this fraud. My speculation only.

Completely agree with ArmenT here, however a normal civil country handles it in a far less offensive manner -- such as asking them to surrender passport, report to a police station once a week, providing bail sureties etc.

The issue is the offensive treatment during this period, even if the court releases them, who pays for the harassment they suffer till then? And doesn't the principle of "presumed innocent till proven guilty" demand that the people be treated with respect in the interim?

Its not like they are charged for a heinous crime.

[Dhiman]

Depends. They may be found innocent ater all and allowed to stay. On the other hand, if there's evidence produced that these 18 knew they were perpetuating a fraud (e.g.) say these guys gave a false residential address and never attended a single class, then there could be fines and jail time before deportation. Another reason for not giving the option for leaving, they can be used to turn in evidence to prosecute other people such as the university heads and the agents responsible for creating this fraud. My speculation only.

Have the university officials been arrested yet? or just the students? Also, has any action been taken against officials in US embassy who handed out visas without doing proper checks or just the students?

As far as I know there is no information regarding students perpetuating fraud although I don't deny the ability of US law enforcement to dig up or invent something . There is information regarding university perpetuating fraud and officials in US embassy handing out visa without proper checks.

[sugriva]

1. The Indians students have plausible legal defence if they can prove that they were indeed unaware of the antecedents of the university and that they had been scammed. However, upon investigation, if it is revealed that the Indian students were aware of the sham status of the university they would then be guilty of visa fraud and abetment of such fraud. That though, will not prevent charges from being pressed against them for being in violation of the minimum 1 year full time study requirement for obtaining CPT/OPT, irrespective of either of the two outcomes mentioned earlier. Being unaware of the law is no excuse for being in violation of it.

2. In this context, it is irrelevant whether the students offered to come back to India when confronted by the ICE worthies. There is a due process of law and it appears that GOTUS is intent on carrying it out. On another note, most of the students wouldn't even have offered to come home as that would directly imply their complicity in the fraud perpetrated by the TriValley University.

3. The US government radio tagging them and their spokesperson in India defending it, is a major PR faux pas that could have been avoided. It now completely clouds out the real issues and violations at hand, viz the issue of how the US consulate was approving visa applications for a sham university and how the ICE department was handing out I-20's to students who didn't satisfy minimum study requirements.

4. That said, there is a cultural obsession among AP people with wanting to go the US, settling there and being seen as successful by people back home. Why that is so is not quite clear to me. This cultural obsession is what drives people to take desperate measures to get to the US and remain there.

[Dhiman]

Completely agree with ArmenT here, however a normal civil country handles it in a far less offensive manner -- such as asking them to surrender passport, report to a police station once a week, providing bail sureties etc.

The paranoid thinking here is that they will go underground (i.e illegal) if not tagged or put in jail, i.e there is already a preconceived notion and attribution of a crime that has not been yet committed and that too without getting an opinion from a judge in a court of law.

Its not like they are charged for a heinous crime.

As far as I know, so far, only for violating terms of their visa. For which there is either 1) corrective actions that can be taken by filling out forms, or 2) by voluntarily leaving the country, or 3) forcefully being deported.

[Sanku]

@sugriva -- a very balanced PoV. However

Being unaware of the law is no excuse for being in violation of it.

The response of the state does in many cases depend on the intent as well as knowledge.

For example a group of youngsters accidentally picnicking on restricted Mil lands in India are treated quite differently from Paki hanging around to take observations.

There are concepts of suspended charges and deffered charges etc.

[Sanku]

Completely agree with ArmenT here, however a normal civil country handles it in a far less offensive manner -- such as asking them to surrender passport, report to a police station once a week, providing bail sureties etc.

The paranoid thinking here is that they will go underground (i.e illegal) if not tagged or put in jail, i.e there is already a preconceived notion and attribution of a crime that has not been yet committed.

Absolutely agree. You cant hang a man for a crime you think he will do, there is no pre-crime department yet.

As far as I know, so far, only for violating terms of their visa..

That too minor issues of the term and probably due to being aware of the clauses.

[sugriva]

The response of the state does in many cases depend on the intent as well as knowledge. For example a group of youngsters accidentally picnicking on restricted Mil lands in India are treated quite differently from Paki hanging around to take observations

.

That is exactly the point saar. Those in violation of the law have no control on how those who are paid for the upkeep of the law will treat them. In your example above, the military authorities had all rights to detain and question the picnickers if they chose to. The fact that they were let off was due to the discretion exercised by the powers that be. In the case of the Indian students it was at the discretion of the ICE authorities to let them off and deport them. It appears from the looks of it that they have gone by the book and booked them. It is for this eventuality only that people advise being on the right side of the law.

[Sanku]

In the case of the Indian students it was at the discretion of the ICE authorities to let them off and deport them.

Which is indeed my other point too. I only hope that all acknowledge it.

However I still maintain, while they carry out the task of the due process of law, there are better ways of taking care of people, who are effectively victims of fraud (without getting into specific legality)

[arnab]

Which is indeed my other point too. I only hope that all acknowledge it.

However I still maintain, while they carry out the task of the due process of law, there are better ways of taking care of people, who are effectively victims of fraud (without getting into specific legality)

Just curious - how can ICE carry out the 'task of due process of law' without being legalistic? How do we know that the students are 'victims' and not colluders? (how can a legal issue be sorted out without getting into specific legalities?). The students had a choice - bail / free with dog coller / detention. Deportation can only occur after the specific legalities have been worked out - no?

[Sanku]

Arnab wrote:

How do we know that the students are 'victims' and not colluders?

(i) Just curious....so are you stating it is all right to tag them even without first ascertaining whether they are victims or not?

(ii) In ethics and law, 'Let the punishment fit the crime' is the principle that the severity of penalty for a misdeed or wrongdoing should be reasonable and proportionate to the severity of the infraction.

So do you think tagging is really justified in this particular case?

Apart from the very valid point Ajatshatru points out, I would like to add one further point.

Did the students have a choice? Really? Only now we hear that they have option of a bond. Did they really? A 10,000$ bail surety is a choice that a FOB immigrant has?

Come let us not kid ourselves. The choices they had was go to jail or go to jail.

Certainly impounding passports is bad enough isnt it?

[arnab]

Arnab wrote:

How do we know that the students are 'victims' and not colluders?

(i) Just curious....so are you stating it is all right to tag them even without first ascertaining whether they are victims or not?

(ii) In ethics and law, 'Let the punishment fit the crime' is the principle that the severity of penalty for a misdeed or wrongdoing should be reasonable and proportionate to the severity of the infraction.

So do you think tagging is really justified in this particular case?

Nope tagging is equivalent to a bail (or maybe someone in the NRI community can post a guarantee for the students? Are you in the US sir?). Courts can ask a defendent to post a bail without ascertaining whether they are victims or perpetrators.

[arnab]

I would like to add one further point.

Did the students have a choice? Really? Only now we hear that they have option of a bond. Did they really? A 10,000$ bail surety is a choice that a FOB immigrant has?
.
Come let us not kid ourselves. The choices they had was go to jail or go to jail.

Certainly impounding passports is bad enough isnt it?

Sir from the ICE perspective, there is no guarantee that the 'students' would not disappear if after having been discovered they are left free to roam about in the community. The fact that their passports were impounded is neither here nor there. I'm told that the first thing illegal immigrants do is get rid of their passports.

[arnab]

Arnab

If I were in the US, I would have taken up their case free of charge.

I think it can be effectively argued when the case eventually goes to the Courts that there may have been several violations in the way these students were handled/treated....and, moreover, please remember the basic premise anywhere is 'innocent until proven guilty' and not the other way around....

The demand of a bail (dogtag) does not imply guilt. I did not ask whether you would take up their case free of charge. asked whether you would sign a statutory declaration in front of the US authorities guaranteeing that these 'students' would not disappear if left free in the community.

[Sanku]

The demand of a bail (dogtag) does not imply guilt..

Sir the whole point is that bail == dogtag is a very offensive way of operation, particularly for poor students who cant furnish huge amounts at drop of a hat.

This is harassment nothing more. Just keeping the passports itself would be pretty severe.

[Vikas]

Bottom line is we should stop accepting such behavior from any country be it White Packis down under or Uncle ji when it comes to Indians.
Let no one treat us like dirt or take us for granted.
If a student of Caucasian origin would have been left to roam free in community after a bond or by impounding his/her passport, Surely Indian students should get the same treatment.
Lets not forget Uncle and its paid minions would have been screaming murder, had an American student been tagged like this.

[Lalmohan]

one ugly fact that many of you will not like is that some indians go abroad as 'students' and then either fail to go to their college and/or overstay their visas - mostly working in the shadow economy. this puts the real students going to proper colleges into the same bad books as the dodgy guys and the authorities take the same stand against all. US immigration authorities are harsher than most

[archan]

Allright, enough of this. This thread is for Indo US strategic News and Discussion. I don't see much strategic importance to those students getting a raw deal or whatever. You gotta be wise or you get screwed, such is the world. No more of this discussion in this thread.
Anyone responding to an earlier post or making a new post on this topic in this thread will get a warning.

[Sachin]

Folks, sorry for being a "Late Lateef" here. Sanku pointed me to this thread.

Link posted by JwalaMukhi reads that
Investigators believe TVU reported that most of its students live at the apartment to conceal they don't live in the state.
Wont this alone justify tagging these students? Because the investigators found out that these chaps dont even reside in their known addresses. That being the case, how are the US agencies going to track these folks, if they just abscond.

Nothing the students may have done still gives an excuse to tag them as if they are some common criminals....

The agencies have found that many of the students did not even reside in their known addresses. Now that they have taken the pain to identify the students and track them down, wont it be a better idea to now make sure that they are tracked?

TVU and similar schools had a "well-earned" reputation of shortening the process by offering OPT/CPT from day one – which meant "students" could get on the employment track even as they began "college."

Such a scam used to exist in UK as well. Folks pay up some 2 to 3 lakhs join up some fake college some where in UK. The same agency would arrange for VISAs, and coach them to attend the VISA interviews. They also arrange for jobs such as bar men etc. The promise is that after their course is over they can return back with at least 5 lakhs. I know two cases (close friends). None of them planned to goto UK to actually study. It was to work in this illegal fashion there and come back.

Since the students had come on fraudulent visas issued by the fake uty, the ICE should deport these non citizens and not treat them as slaves with radio tag virtual chaining.

Seems to be the best and correct route . But is there a process of appeal, that the students out on bail (with the tags) can take this up in a higher court? In that case the students needs to stay put in US to figh their case. And since they are out on bail US agencies would have to keep an eye on them. But if there is no process of appeal, the best would be to deport them.

Maybe MEA would rather that they are all put into judicial custody/prison along with other undertrials while the case is taken care of?

This should have been the best way forward . As I mentioned earlier, this is how Indian judiciary treats the country's citizens in cases where it feels that the bail money cannot be paid, or there are chances that the accused would abscond, or would threaten witnesses etc. I feel this "tagging" incident may have been a ploy to get US Govt. in back foot, but they stuck to their guns and said that is how law works in US.

No, you cannot assume guilt before they are proven to be guilty, so putting collar around these students IS a voilation of human rights.

I dont understand this point. The US agencies need to keep track of these people, because sooner or later they have to be put up for trial. Their laws allow 'tagging' of people (instead of putting them inside a prison). That is how the bail procedure in their country works. I remember some human rights champions of my state crying that 'hand cuffing' and under-trial prisoner when brought to the court was a human right violation. In US, I guess they do this as a matter of practise (and in some cases, the prisoner also wears a prominent jacket).

India does not put shackles on even ILLEGAL immigrants or put them in jail. Merely intern them in camps (usually better than their prior chawls) and send them back by train.

May be the case with Bangladeshis. But for others it is usually the nearest Central Prison. I remember a case which recently happened in Kerala. These were folks from some South African country. They were caught for some serious offence, and sentenced to prison terms. They had to stay for more time in the same prison, because GoI and their own country decided on the deportation. And when it came, all of them were bundled into a police vehicle, taken to the air port and put on a flight. Dont know what these folks preferred. Stay put up in a prison cell, or have a tracker mechanism on their bodies.

Sure they broke the law, because the Univ they came through did not do its job, why is it the students fault?

On the VISA provided to the student. Who is the primary person to ensure that the VISA guide lines are followed? Or for that matter any US law? Is it the student, or with the university? The rule that more than 20 hours of work is not permitted. Is the University only the agency authorised to check this?

This is purely my observation, so FWIW. There are enough and more people in India who have a kind of life long ambition to move to European nations or to the USA. Perhaps it is the peer pressure/family pressure or the society's expectation that forces them to do that. So many of the folks I have met have used this illegal, or semi-legal routes to reach their dream destination. These folks (at least the ones I have met) are not dumbos or illiterates. And unless this craze (of migrating to another country at any cost) exists in Indian society, such cases are bound to happen again.

[Sanku]

Well Sachin given archan's post we now have to decide which thread to move the discussion to now?

[putnanja]

I had posted an article earlier where bail was set at $8000-20000 for couple of students who didn't want to wear the tags

[archan]

Well Sachin given archan's post we now have to decide which thread to move the discussion to now?

How about an email list amongst you people and sort it out? not everything needs to be discussed on BRF. At least I don't see a benefit of this discussion to the forum.

[ramana]

And in this thread.

[Sanku]

Just for the record, I concur, personally I think all the points have been made in the discussion, and there is not much more on this anyway.

I have no personally have no wish to distract the thread further.