LCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8257
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by disha »

shiv wrote:Well the SDRE YellSeeYay had a treat for me on the golf course this afternoon. I saw the whole display - takeoff and a steep climb with two rolls and a turn at the top of the climb, a tight turn putting it back in line with the runway for an inverted flight. I loved it. So far this is the best I have seen from the LCA.

The group playing with me (who misidentified a group of 4 Jags as MiG 21) all stooped to watch the display as I had done and one of them even said "awesome its dancing like a kite". I told them it is our own SDRE LCA.
:(( Can you get a cam corder for your golf caddy? Waiting for the day when LCA demonstrates knife-edge!
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

given the amount of time al hakimi is on BRF and the golf course, one wonders when he does any hakim-giri!?! :)
SanjibGhosh
BRFite
Posts: 150
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 18:49

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SanjibGhosh »

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/424149/
Five Tejas fighters to light up Aero India
India’s home-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is poised to grab a large share of the limelight at the five-day Aero India 2011 air show in Bangalore, beginning on February 9. For the first time ever, a formation of five Tejas fighters will roar past the spectators during the inaugural fly-past. And, jostling with the world’s premier fighters, two Tejas prototypes will perform aerobatics displays that the pilots describe as “well beyond anything that we have ever displayed before”.
PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by PratikDas »

SanjibGhosh wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/424149/
Five Tejas fighters to light up Aero India
...And, jostling with the world’s premier fighters, two Tejas prototypes will perform aerobatics displays that the pilots describe as “well beyond anything that we have ever displayed before”.
I wanted to say "YES" many times over, but I thought that might sound rude :mrgreen:
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I guess only advanced production engineering setup (robots) is required to scale down cost projections for LCA. At the projected rate of 8 a/cs per year, there would be still issues in bringing the cost down since the numbers and time matters in reducing costs.

Now, I am not sure if these figures are based on current HAL capabilities or expected projections based on use of robotic assembly lines. Going by the needs again, they could add assembly lines, but need to justify expenditure here.

Increased investment costs in additional production setup, can only reap benefits after RoI, and we would need about 15-20 tejas per year after Mk2 FoC happens. It is going to be a struggle for HAL till then.
babbupandey
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 16:53

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by babbupandey »

I guess HAL should start building the capacity. It will serve two purposes:
a. HAL can show to IAF that they have the capacity and can start production as soon as they get the orders
b. once HAL has the capacity, then government would like to use that capacity else it will result in wastage - so it will give more incentive to government to "insource" rather than "outsource" :D
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Of all the assembly lines I have been to I have never seen robotic arms doing the work anywhere ... It doesn't make sense for a 20-40-60 per year line. Besides most of the work is internal to the plane (like wiring and stuff) and very labour intensive.

See this video for an example, and this is for planes which are not as intricate and space constrained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OKmjqzr ... ure=fvwrel

They have just huge cranes which can take stuff from one place to another.
babbupandey
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 16:53

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by babbupandey »

I think he was talking about employing robots to build smaller components.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

^^"he" meaning Benji Mammen, Manager, Tejas Production line? if not, then "have some business standards". :mrgreen:
babbupandey
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 16:53

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by babbupandey »

Yes - I meant Benji Mammen, referring to Shuklaji's article :D
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

“By March 2012, the first four fighters from the Tejas production line will be handed over to the IAF”, promises Ashok Nayak, Chairman and Managing Director of HAL. “And from then onwards we will step up production to 8 fighters per year.”

This involves a radical change in the way that HAL builds aircraft. Benji Mammen, HAL’s manager for the Tejas production line, explains that each developmental Tejas incorporated multiple improvements, which meant that each aircraft was significantly different from its predecessor. Now, having obtained operational clearance, HAL would build a standardised fighter, using automated assembly line processes that would speed up the process, as well as improve precision and build quality.

“Take the LCA wing, which is attached to a metal framework with rivets and bolts,” explains Mammen. “So far, we marked and drilled by hand the 3,000-odd holes which are used to attach the wing. Now we will automate the whole process, perhaps through the use of robots.
yes indeed.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Generally the wing come prefabricated to the assembly line.

A typical assembly line gets the forward fuselage section, mid-fuselage section aft-fuselage section, tail assembly pre-frabicated. They are put together manually. Following this the internals are laid out (again by hand). So an assembly line can go only as fast as the any individual process in this pipeline.
The putting together things look like this:
Image
or like this
Image

Ofcourse the prefabrication of the wing has to keep pace with this pipeline demand speed. And a manually fabricated wing is not going to be fast enough.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sum »

For the first time ever, a formation of five Tejas fighters will roar past the spectators during the inaugural fly-past.
What about the 5 LCAs flypast on the other 4 days?
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

unlikely. iirc two tejas will do aerobatics each day , perhaps one in morning and the other in evening round. the other planes who came in pairs are expected to do same unless a glitch grounds them and forces the other to fly twice maybe.

there is a czech aerobatic team who has brought their a/c inside trailers. should be good these guys.
Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1657
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sid »

LCA Final and Structural assembly lines. This is the sight we all waited for so long

from http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
Image

clicky for big image
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... Bline1.jpg
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sum »

^^ Like the SDREs using the Tejas as a umbrella for their lunch break in the above pic :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

typical weak yindus - cant even stand the hot sun like pakmards who'd be eating a roast goat skewered on a open air grill.

btw are those trailer boxes diesel generators to supply some portable APU power?
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

Sid wrote:LCA Final and Structural assembly lines. This is the sight we all waited for so long

from http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
Image
The colour of the Assembly line is really nice , matches the background and Tejas in front of it.

Wonder why they have named the assembly structure as "LCA" and not "TEJAS" Final Assembly.
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4041
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1534 Test Flights successfully. (03-Feb-2011).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-193,PV3-258,LSP1-60,LSP2-162,PV5-22,LSP3-26,LSP4-29,LSP5-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1520 Test Flights successfully. (10-Jan-2011).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-192,PV3-255,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-22,LSP3-24,LSP4-25,LSP5-2)

Looks like they update website on Saturday.
shijo
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 7
Joined: 17 Jun 2010 11:55

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shijo »

http://in.finance.yahoo.com/news/Light- ... 79504.html

The LCA project was initiated in the mid-1980s to replace the ageing MiG-21s. At the same time there were two other countries that took equally important decisions on their own aircraft programmes. In Canada, Bombardier acquired Canadair and decided to go full time into commercial aircraft manufacturing. While in Brazil, the government-run Embraer decided to design and manufacture the first Brazilian commercial liner.

A bit of net surfing tell me that a 90-seater Bombardier CRJ jet or a 90-seater Embraer E-jet costs the same as a Tejas!

Two countries consciously decided to establish their names by flying millions of people across the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
look at the bolded part, wht can we call him :evil: :evil: :evil: ?????
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

does anyone know if the wingbox/fuselage unit in tejas is a single machined piece or a rivet and weld structure?

re production, whilst robotics - maybe they mean CNC machines also, could be useful for some stages, it seems to me that the rate limiting factor is the availability of skilled labour for final assembly/integration and quality assurance

one assumes that the tiered supplier base has had enough time to spool up, but again - cannot be certain that all components are coming in on time at the right quality
P Chitkara
BRFite
Posts: 355
Joined: 30 Aug 2004 08:09

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by P Chitkara »

Has anyone seen any picture of the final config cockpit LCA cockpit or that of PV5; or, is it known what kind of changes were done to it?
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11242
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gagan »

Austin wrote:Wonder why they have named the assembly structure as "LCA" and not "TEJAS" Final Assembly.
:twisted:
I wondered about it too. And this doesn't sound very good.

Another possible re-naming around the corner?

Our netajis rename roads every time the party in power changes, how difficult would it be to change the name of an aircraft program?
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Vipul »

Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

BANGALORE: Almost three decades after it was conceived and after running up a staggering 3,000 per cent cost escalation, India's indigenously developed fighter will Wednesday for the first time be seen in its true role of a combat jet at the AeroIndia international air show on the outskirts of this aerospace hub.

The Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) has been on view at two previous editions of the biennial trade exposition but either on the ground or as part of a sedate flypast.

"This will be the first time when a fleet of Tejas', including a trainer variant and a naval variant, will be seen in a flying display at the AeroIndia 2011 to showcase its potent strike force," P.S. Subramanyam, direcctor of the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), told IANS.

ADA, an arm of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed the jet, billed as the world's smallest fighter, which has been built by state-owned aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Some 10 Tejas' will be on display during the Feb 9-13 show.

Conceived in the mid-1980s as a replacement for ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the real funding for the ambitious LCA programme came in 1993 with the government granting Rs.2.28 billion ($50 million). Till now, Rs.67 billion ($1.5 billion) has been spent on the project.

On the plus side, Tejas received the IAF's initial operational clearance Jan 10, which means it is now ready for induction in the fleet. The first Tejas squadron - 20 aircraft) is expected to be formed by 2014 after the aircraft is fully certified and secures the final operational clearance over the next two years.

At Rs.1.9 billion ($42 million) per aircraft, the first squadron will cost about Rs.38 billion ($836 million), while the second squadron at Rs.2.10 billion ($46 million) each is projected to cost Rs.42 billion ($924 million).

The IAF plans to induct about 200 Tejas aircraft over the years and increase its squadron strength to 39-40 along with 220 of the Russia .-made Sukhoi-30MKI, another 126-194 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the fifth generation fighter aircraft that is being jointly developed with Russia.

Tejas is powered by the General Electric (GE) F404-GE-IN20 engine as the homegrown Kaveri powerplant is still undergoing advanced trials. Barring the GE engine and sensitive items such as sensors and high-end components, the entire aircraft, including the glass cockpit, avionics and sub-systems is 65 per cent indigenous, with the figure likely to go up by 15 per cent.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.

The aircraft is also capable of carrying assorted weapon load and drop tanks up to four tonnes and on eight hard points.
sivab
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sivab »

Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.
:?: :eek: :shock:
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9119
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

sivab wrote:
Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.
:?: :eek: :shock:
So there's no Naval Mk2 on the cards?
sumshyam
BRFite
Posts: 552
Joined: 23 Sep 2009 19:30
Location: Ganga ki dharti.
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sumshyam »

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

The author is CEO, Saffron Brand Consultants.
he might want to spend more and make his website look a tad more readable

:)
Sidhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 18
Joined: 07 Feb 2011 20:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sidhu »

Marking my first post with a newbie question.

Do the flights related to demo of the aircraft count as test flights or are test flights reserved to refer to flights where "testing of specific points" are concerned ??

It was heart warming to see 4 LCAs in formation today. Truely a jingo's delight
Last edited by SSridhar on 08 Feb 2011 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: SeeDo, your handle is changed. Pl see Forum Feedback thread for more details
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

nachiket wrote:So there's no Naval Mk2 on the cards?
the navy will have only Mk2 and no Mk1. only its trainers would be powered by F404. whether kaveri will power the Mk2 or not is a separate question.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

does anyone have hours for IJT testing??

maybe it needs it own thread else gets drowned by LCA and heaven forbid the MRCA
Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurneesh »

Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"This will be the first time when a fleet of Tejas', including a trainer variant and a naval variant, will be seen in a flying display at the AeroIndia 2011 to showcase its potent strike force," P.S. Subramanyam, direcctor of the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), told IANS.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.
So we will see the first flight of naval LCA... nice..

Kaveri appears to be less powerful than 404 as of now and will be less powerful compared to 414 in it's mk-2 avatar. So, while it can be used in a trainer, dunno how well will the navy receive the Kaveri Powered LCA when the 414 powered mk-2 is what has pleased the AF (only just) as Navy LCA would have higher thrust requirements (plus more weight).
sivab
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sivab »

^^^ He is talking about snecma kaveri not current one.
narmad
BRFite
Posts: 226
Joined: 10 May 2005 09:47
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by narmad »

The Navy seems to want the MK2.
May be the Navy has the same misgivings about the Tejas MK1, its just that they don't go on and air it to the public.
They did reject the Naval ALH for valid reasons, but they did not make a huge hue and cry about it.
Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurneesh »

@ sivab Snecma Kaveri will produce around 90 kN. 414 produces around 98 kN and the one offered for LCA is said to be the most powerful 414 version (might as well be an EPE). So, LCA navy might actually have to make do with 8 kN less thrust while being heavier than the AF version.

Current Kaveri poduces 75 kN as compared to 85 kN produced by the 404.

There was an article some time back wherein the Navy Chief mentioned that LCA is not exactly what they want but they will support it as it is indigenous.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5353
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version,
INteresting, I wonder if this is what has caused the delay in penning the second order of the initial 40. So from the looks of it, the IAF gets only 20 LCA mk1 -GE F404 IN20 (85kn) powered. The remaining will all be 414s. Thing is what do they intend to do with the additional IN20 engines? They were originally supposed to power the second batch of 20 a/c.

In effect this would mean that a total of only about 120 Tejas (mk1 & 2) will be produced. I think this could be a move to undermine and relegate the Tejas to a nominal number. Otoh, look at the orders estimated for the Pakfa and MKI - both around 250-300! I would not be surprised if the MRCA far outnumbers the Tejas in the IAF.

Backwards thinking if true imho. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The force structure seems to be increasingly topheavy. World over (and not too long ago, in the IAF as well) the light fighters make up numbers, while the twin engined heavies are the spearhead. The current procurement plan seems entirely opposite of this logic.

They need a cheap bird to be the backbone of the fleet, the LCA seems ideal. However, perhaps the engines being American means that the IAF would rather not take chances. Conversely, if the AF is comfortable with the US components, expect twice the number of Gripens vis a vis the Tejas. No matter which way we look at it, as of now the LCA seems buggered! :evil: I hope the AMCA manages better - homemade engines are a must.

JMT of course.

CM>
Last edited by Cain Marko on 08 Feb 2011 03:28, edited 1 time in total.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5282
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Cain Marko wrote:
We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version,
INteresting, I wonder if this is what has caused the delay in penning the second order of the initial 40. So from the looks of it, the IAF gets only 20 LCA mk1 -GE F404 IN20 (85kn) powered. The remaining will all be 414s. Thing is what do they intend to do with the additional IN20 engines? They were originally supposed to power the second batch of 20 a/c.

CM>
DDM.


This is the correct order:
  • 20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
  • 80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5353
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

indranilroy wrote:^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.
It is not? I thought the engine deal went with GE last year in October. Also remember, the above is a direct quote from PS, not DDM spin/edit. The man is being quoted - verbatim.
srai wrote:DDM.
Refer above.
20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)
As of now the second 20 order has not materialized/inked. They have been talking about a 20 + 20 for ages, and for sure the first 20 was ordered waay back (2005?). The second 20 though is nowhere to be seen. As it currently stands, HAL has orders for only 28 LCA. Or did I miss something? When did the IAF sign for the second Tejas MK1 (GE IN20) order?

CM
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5282
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Cain Marko wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.
It is not? I thought the engine deal went with GE last year in October. Also remember, the above is a direct quote from PS, not DDM spin/edit. The man is being quoted - verbatim.
srai wrote:DDM.
Refer above.
20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)
As of now the second 20 order has not materialized/inked. They have been talking about a 20 + 20 for ages, and for sure the first 20 was ordered waay back (2005?). The second 20 though is nowhere to be seen. As it currently stands, HAL has orders for only 28 LCA. Or did I miss something? When did the IAF sign for the second Tejas MK1 (GE IN20) order?

CM
If that's the case, then there will be 5 years of idle production time between LCA Mk.1 and Mk.2 version. Mk.2 version is going to make its maiden flight in 2014 with IOC happening around 2017. As we have seen with IAF and HAL practice, they don't start manufacture of the type until IOC is achieved (because prototype configurations change a lot). This means @ 8 aircraft per year current capacity, HAL will have delivered the 20 LCA Mk.1 version by early 2013. So between 2013 to 2017, HAL LCA facilities will lie idle (with only a handful of Mk.2 prototypes being built during that span).
Post Reply