China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 08:58

What is a "Gothic strake"? "Gothic" implies 400 years old.

Must be a chinese term that the rest of the world does not understand

manum · Post by **manum** » 11 Feb 2011 08:59

China, survives, administered and flourishes on a billion quotes....thats what he is doing and feeling smart, he is blind too, so doesn't feels embarrassed as well...
We need to look away from him...and stop embarrassing ourselves.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Feb 2011 09:00

^ EF2000 is much agile than any euro bird.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:03

WEN,

Has the J-20 flown since ALL those pictures? After that 15 minute flight? Two planes with two different engines, etc, etc, etc. Wind tunnel data. Chords that would make a beautiful girl blush.

Has it flown since then?

wen · Post by **wen** » 11 Feb 2011 09:03

NRao wrote:What is a "Gothic strake"? "Gothic" implies 400 years old.

Must be a chinese term that the rest of the world does not understand

And this is the "expert" that claiming J-20 is rooted from the junk called MiG-1.44

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:05

What is a MiG 1.44?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:06

You are mixing people.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:09

wen wrote:
NRao wrote:What is a "Gothic strake"? "Gothic" implies 400 years old.

Must be a chinese term that the rest of the world does not understand

And this is the "expert" that claiming J-20 is rooted from the junk called MiG-1.44

J-20 = breadbox.

Wen,

come back in 10 years.

I think the J-20 THEN will be worth discussing.

What crap is this plane?

Like someone observed it the J-20 had the grace of a Boeing 747.

And THAT is true.

Song, wind tunnel and all.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Feb 2011 09:09

Do explain wen what do you mean by Gothic strake....

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Feb 2011 09:12

This dude's best response is "J20 director knows". Unfortunatel, even after reading the journal that he linked to, he is unable to answer any question on aerodynamics. So, like a drone "the master knows everything, you shouldn't question it. And when I say J20 is best and rest is crap without any proof, you have to accept it"

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:15

Wen,

JUST by the way (BTW) (God, it is like teaching my kids when they were 5 year old!!!) even the PAK-FA is not a very big deal. It has to mature. The F-22 took 10 years for it to be what it is today. Russians are great. So are Chinese. BUT the J-20 is NOT great.

YET.

It MAY be in 10 years. Who knows.

Those wind tunnel data are rubbish. As far as I can see that data is ONLY good enough to make a 1.44 into a J-20. That is it.

let the J-20 fly again and then we can talk.

munna · Post by **munna** » 11 Feb 2011 09:21

Wen puttar you are losing face! J-20 = Naan/Paratha box.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:48

Will people on BR PLEASE stop asking Wen ji about Gothic strakes. For that is what turns up on google chaha.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:51

BTW, the oldest ref I can find (about "Gothic strakes" is in 1979 - that too it refers to an F-16.

Funny that the more I research this new, innovative J-20, the more I find that it is based on really old techs.

I find it very hard to believe that the J-20 is innovative in any form. Sounds like the long lost platypus to me.

Gothic strakes for you!!!!!

FROM 1979 for heavens sakes.

And this Chinese is pawning it of as a new technology, because some director of tech in their God knows what dept said so in Chinese and that he has a Ph. D in some area.

check out page 12 from that article from 1979!!!

The J-20 is turning out to be an expensive joke!!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Feb 2011 09:52

when are we going to learn. do not feed the troll.

But I must admit, its kind of fun

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 09:57

Sid,

THIS is WAY beyond a troll.

This is an entire air craft design team of a nation that has the 2nd largest economy in the world today!!!

Think of that.

Wen? troll?

And they are challenging a Russian technical culture that has been in existence since the 40s or earlier?

Laughable.

Shows how hollow they are.

Gothic strakes. I will carry that into my next few lives. : )

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Feb 2011 10:07

Don't we have a mod here ? Why being democratic with this wank.. sorry wen chap ? He better go and whine somewhere else.J 20 is not going out of china for the next decade anyway.And man, this guys english is bad doesn't he read before he post ?

Rao ji, your time is best spend after this troll is kicked out.Please stop responding to him/her !

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Feb 2011 10:21

Gothic strakes was really awesome. That happens when only you read 10 chi-panda forums and try to collate all info in one post.

They are struggling to bridge their tech gap with USA since that J7/EP-3 collision 12 years ago, where they could do nothing more then sending back that plane in pieces.

But this stupid propaganda using photoshop-sweat-shops and cloning factories is not helping improve their image in any way.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 11 Feb 2011 12:16

wen wrote:5)During China's internal military excreise, J-10 (short distnace coupling canards) have always beaten the crap out of convetional layout Su-27/30s, for instance:

1 J-10 vs 4 Su-27s, 4:0http://mil.jschina.com.cn/2009/1105/1664.htm

2 J-10s vs 4 Su-27s, again, 4:0http://dh.jgjy.gov.cn/shownews.asp?news_id=1873

6 J-10s vs 6 Su-30s, 5:0, the only Su-30 surivived was driven by probably the best Su-30 pilot in PLA(vice commander of the only SU-30 division in China Navy, with the highest awards winning among all Su-30 pilots in PLA), and he narrowly escaped the hunts.http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/detail_2010 ... 56_0.shtml

6)RAF's EF2000 has conducted military excreise with French Raflale, the Raflale (short distance coupling canard) basically beat the crap out of EF2000 (long distance coupling canard).

So all in all, it seems that Song's findings has correlated with real-world performance very well.

Dear Wen panda, despite trying my best not to respond to your deeply insightful posts.. I can't stop myself from saying this -

If in a 1:1 fight five of your Su-30 got kicked by junk-10s, AND the BEST SU-30 Piolt in CHINA was just able to save his a$$ and run.. then it only proves one thing that your pilots are pieces of shyt.

and if they can't dance in front of junk-10's imagine how bad will there a$$ be kicked when they will be in front of Indian MKI's.. and probably EFs/rafaels.

There is just one truth.. and that is the only truth.. Whenever next time we gonna meet in a battlefield your chinki a$$ will be kicked and will be kicked real bad.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Feb 2011 12:46

*deleted*

wen · Post by **wen** » 11 Feb 2011 12:48

Boreas wrote:
wen wrote:5)During China's internal military excreise, J-10 (short distnace coupling canards) have always beaten the crap out of convetional layout Su-27/30s, for instance:

1 J-10 vs 4 Su-27s, 4:0http://mil.jschina.com.cn/2009/1105/1664.htm

2 J-10s vs 4 Su-27s, again, 4:0http://dh.jgjy.gov.cn/shownews.asp?news_id=1873

6 J-10s vs 6 Su-30s, 5:0, the only Su-30 surivived was driven by probably the best Su-30 pilot in PLA(vice commander of the only SU-30 division in China Navy, with the highest awards winning among all Su-30 pilots in PLA), and he narrowly escaped the hunts.http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/detail_2010 ... 56_0.shtml

6)RAF's EF2000 has conducted military excreise with French Raflale, the Raflale (short distance coupling canard) basically beat the crap out of EF2000 (long distance coupling canard).

So all in all, it seems that Song's findings has correlated with real-world performance very well.
Dear Wen panda, despite trying my best not to respond to your deeply insightful posts.. I can't stop myself from saying this -

If in a 1:1 fight five of your Su-30 got kicked by junk-10s, AND the BEST SU-30 Piolt in CHINA was just able to save his a$$ and run.. then it only proves one thing that your pilots are pieces of shyt.

and if they can't dance in front of junk-10's imagine how bad will there a$$ be kicked when they will be in front of Indian MKI's.. and probably EFs/rafaels.

There is just one truth.. and that is the only truth.. Whenever next time we gonna meet in a battlefield your chinki a$$ will be kicked and will be kicked real bad.

If you guys have is big mouth boys like the above I quoted, then I am not very optimistic about if about the performance about you guys in battlefield

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 11 Feb 2011 13:18

wen wrote:
Boreas wrote: Dear Wen panda, despite trying my best not to respond to your deeply insightful posts.. I can't stop myself from saying this -

If in a 1:1 fight five of your Su-30 got kicked by junk-10s, AND the BEST SU-30 Piolt in CHINA was just able to save his a$$ and run.. then it only proves one thing that your pilots are pieces of shyt.

and if they can't dance in front of junk-10's imagine how bad will there a$$ be kicked when they will be in front of Indian MKI's.. and probably EFs/rafaels.

There is just one truth.. and that is the only truth.. Whenever next time we gonna meet in a battlefield your chinki a$$ will be kicked and will be kicked real bad.
If you guys have is big mouth boys like the above I quoted, then I am not very optimistic about if about the performance about you guys in battlefield

yup its a fact.. we have everything bigger than you

however kid I still want to know what you have to say about "The BEST Piolt in Panada Nation running out of fight"? If he is the best what do average ones do.. don't show up in the morning??

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 11 Feb 2011 13:21

wen wrote:5)During China's internal military excreise, J-10 (short distnace coupling canards) have always beaten the crap out of convetional layout Su-27/30s, for instance:

1 J-10 vs 4 Su-27s, 4:0http://mil.jschina.com.cn/2009/1105/1664.htm

2 J-10s vs 4 Su-27s, again, 4:0http://dh.jgjy.gov.cn/shownews.asp?news_id=1873

6 J-10s vs 6 Su-30s, 5:0, the only Su-30 surivived was driven by probably the best Su-30 pilot in PLA(vice commander of the only SU-30 division in China Navy, with the highest awards winning among all Su-30 pilots in PLA), and he narrowly escaped the hunts.http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/detail_2010 ... 56_0.shtml

6)RAF's EF2000 has conducted military excreise with French Raflale, the Raflale (short distance coupling canard) basically beat the crap out of EF2000 (long distance coupling canard).

So all in all, it seems that Song's findings has correlated with real-world performance very well.

Exactly, It is not a matter of pride..but is of shame that Su-30 pilots are that bad...!

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 11 Feb 2011 13:32

Wen,

You will not stop your S*, so here's something for you to remember.

The reason Indian's are called a sleeping giant (elephant) etc is coz we have always been a carefree society with million problems of our own and therefore a very high tolerance level.
This was PAST!

This gen of Indians are determined to stamp our mark and we are f* working hard to achieve it. China was never our friend, but we did not want it to become our "enemy".
We are ashamed that we have to hold back our beast (read armed forces) when your countrymen transgress our borders or when your slaves porkis get our fellow Indians killed.

But, do remember, we are becoming stronger and stronger and we will surpass every country including yours very soon. And we will not forget the insults.

Mark my words, the day we let loose our armed forces, you will see what they will do, so live till that DAY and don't be in Pakistan, coz we will put it out of its misery.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 11 Feb 2011 13:38

Bharat vasis, just because a moderator isn't around for hand-holding doesn't mean that you let the troll get the better of you. C'mon guys, let him laugh away or else his performance reviews will look bad. We all know that a real Chinese jingo would rather be on a Chinese forum for a more efficient and rewarding participation. Like Shiv so eloquently said, let him wave his thing around.

Please don't forget that AeroIndia is on and there are many other threads on this forum which are glowing hot with new toys. Enjoy the show. India's best is on display.

nits · Post by **nits** » 11 Feb 2011 13:45

troll feed deleted...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Feb 2011 13:49

okay guys, wen is gone. do save us mods from cleaning up after everyone next time a troll appears.

although going by wen's antics trolls would in all likelihood sue me for defamation.

hat tip to PratikDas for keeping a sane head !

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Feb 2011 15:21

Hope some one cleans up the 'strakes' left behind by that wank, err .. wen chap .It looks ugly in this thread.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Feb 2011 17:00

I second that, please delete the last odd page or so, ever since the biladhel appeared.
He completely derailed the AMCA thread too.

Or on second thoughts let the troll's posts remain in the China Military Watch thread, after all he was one of the best and brightest of them onlee.

Gothic Strakes and great education indeed.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Feb 2011 20:18

Hmm that was a curious specimen, hope BR s servers are well protected.I think trolls like this should be kicked out much before they waste others time and energy.A kind of whetting process for newbies.
On one hand i don't think the average Chinese would be that much interested in BR and with the kinda googly info he had one would think some part of Chinese 'official' network/propoganda is involved.

manum · Post by **manum** » 11 Feb 2011 20:29

I always remain worried about same...possible cyber attack on BR in due course of time...this site is one of its kind, and precious of precious...have there been instances of attacks in past?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2011 07:25

Sadly I missed this thread for 2 days.

As we all know the only F-22 ever shot down was done by a JF-17 Thinder and a Pakistani pailot using a DJ-1N missile. That was documented on video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXinpChdW4M

There is now a need to document the J-20s capabilities

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 07:47

shiv wrote: There is now a need to document the J-20s capabilities

Always be careful what you ask for. Fuji Films has a J-20, so does Jeep, among others.

The Chinese obviously wanted to hide that too from googlers.

However, IF you ask me, my take is that some within China hacked and got 40 year documents on the F-16, a few on ram coating and chin from perhaps the F-22, a few files from Russia on the MiG 1.44 and the V-fin from the PAK-FA.

And, since the combined loot could not build a flyable plane they, of course, got hold of their own J series, J-10 - canards (for slow speed, high AoA) (I mean, how can you have a 5th gen without high AoA?), perhaps leftover engines (which is OK, considering it is a tech demo).

An then came out with a breadbox, which should keep the Pakis happy.

BTW, has it flown since that 20 min made-for-the-internet flight?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2011 08:09

NRao wrote:
BTW, has it flown since that 20 min made-for-the-internet flight?

There are papers available that prove that test flights in stealth mode will not be detectable. The papers are in Malayalam, a mostly unknown language except for those who know it. But set that aside for a bit and look at hard reality that should make us Indians ponder over the future.

It is a well known fact that Pakistani pilots and Pakistani training is far superior to Chinese pilots and training. This is openly acknowledged by the Pakistan Air Force. Perhaps it is the strict Islamic diet versus an unrestricted Chinese diet, but Pakistani human material is just that much more capable and the more senior Chinese pilots as is well know trained on wooden models on the ground. So the capabilities of The J-20 in Pakistani hands worries me greatly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 08:13

Long March: China’s fifth-generation fighter is years away

By Greg Waldron

Images of a new aircraft purported to be China's fifth-generation fighter have created a stir among aviation enthusiasts, but a true Chinese combat aircraft in this category is probably well over a decade away from readiness.

In late December grainy photographs emerged on Chinese websites of an aircraft described as the fifth-generation Chengdu J-20. Most of the images appeared to show the aircraft during taxi tests, although one especially pixellated image showed what appeared to be the new aircraft close to taking off.

While there is the possibility that the aircraft is a hoax, Chinese air force generals have reportedly hinted about the existence of a fifth-generation fighter programme known as J-XX.

Some similarities to the Lockheed Martin F-22 and Sukhoi's PAK-FA/T-50 demonstrator are apparent. The J-20 features a blended fuselage and large, canted twin tails, while its fuselage has some low-observable characteristics. On the other hand, the aircraft's thrust nozzles are clearly fixed, whereas thrust vectoring has become de rigueur for even some fourth-generation fighters.

Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, warns about concluding much based on available images.

"Drawing even tentative conclusions about anything other than the basic airframe configuration strikes me as speculative," he says. "The canard-delta configuration, coupled with canted vertical fins, is reminiscent of MiG's now cancelled 1.42 programme, and it would be interesting to know why the Chinese designers settled on this approach, rather than that of the Lockheed F-22 or Sukhoi T-50 platform."

Barrie says Sukhoi moved away from the "tri-plane" configuration in its latest revision of the Su-27, the Su-27SM2/Su-35, which disposes of the canard design of the Su-27M.

The J-20 also appears to be very large for a fighter. In one photo it dwarfs a truck, suggesting a size similar to the General Dynamics F-111, or perhaps more appropriately the long-retired Tupolev Tu-128. Size alone could suggest that the aircraft is not a fighter, but a bomber.

Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia is also dubious about the new aircraft. "I'm less sure that it's even much of an impressive airframe," he says. "There are two rather large canards. I'm not sure that can be reconciled with a low-observable design. It looks like something that might have been designed in 1985."

Despite China's clear ambitions to be a leader in both civil and military aviation, other programmes suggest that it lacks the building blocks to create a truly fifth-generation combat aircraft.

Chengdu's fourth-generation J-10 first appeared in 2006 after a decade of testing, but many experts feel it is comparable with Western aircraft of the 1980s. More recently, Beijing has struggled to develop the Shenyang J-15 carrier-borne fighter, a reverse-engineered version of the Su-33 that first flew 25 years ago.

One area where China is particularly weak is jet engines, with reports suggesting that its most advanced model, the Shenyang WS-10, requires an overhaul after every 20h of operation. The J-10 uses Russian Saturn AL-31s, as does the J-11B, a locally produced version of the Su-27.

Even the Chengdu JF-17 Thunder - an inexpensive aircraft pitched to developing nations such as Pakistan as a third-generation platform - is powered by the Klimov RD-93.

"People have seen the F-22 and this has given them ideas about how to approach stealth," says Richard Bitzinger, a senior fellow with Singapore's S Rajaratnam School of International Studies' Military Transformations Programme.

He points out that the F-22, the world's only operational stealth fighter, relies not only on a low-observable design, but also on the sophisticated integration of coatings and materials. The US Air Force type is also covered with sensors and avionics, many of which remain classified.

"The J-20 could make its first flight this year, but it is bound to have a long flight-test programme," Bitzinger says. In his view, China's fifth-generation fighter is over a decade away. For the time being the country will focus on cost-effective programmes such as the J-10 and J-11B to replace older types such as its air force's Chengdu J-7s - based on the Mikoyan MiG-21 - and Shenyang J-8s.

Bitzinger says that if China were to field J-10s and J-11Bs in sufficient numbers, it would be able to outclass key regional rivals such as Japan and Taiwan.

Tech vs. numbers. When numbers win, tech does not!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 08:16

The future of China's fifth-generation stealth fighter

RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik

Both experts and amateurs who have studied the blurred photos of an unfamiliar fighter jet on a runway in China (http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/ ... rious.html) have concluded that Beijing has started testing its fifth-generation stealth fighter.

The J-20 prototype is expected to rival the U.S. F-22 and the Russian T-50 fighters. But is China ready to start mass-producing the aircraft? How good is the prototype?

Experts call it a combination of the Russian and U.S. fifth-generation fighters, but that greatly simplifies matters. In the last 20 years, China has been working closely with Russia to develop a modern fighter jet. But the J-20 is not simply a copy of a Russian design. Rather China has tried to build a completely new aircraft based on the technology and knowledge it has gained during its years of cooperation with Russia.

The future of the new Chinese fighter will depend on several factors.

Engine

It is not clear what kind of engine the plane will have. Some say it will use the prospective Chinese-made WS-15 engine with a maximum thrust exceeding 18,000 kg, but the engine is still in the pipeline.

China has been unable to reproduce Russia's highly efficient high-temperature turbofan AL-31F engine, designed in the early 1980s and currently mounted on the Su-27 fighter and its modifications. The engines for Sukhoi planes manufactured in China are made in Russia and then assembled and adjusted in China.

The AL-31F engine is also mounted on China's J-10 fighter planes. The engine's Chinese analogue, the WS-10, is less efficient than the Russian prototype.

Materials

A fifth-generation stealth fighter must be able to evade radar, and so it must be made from modern composite materials. However, China does not produce such materials in commercial amounts, and experts doubt that it can develop and produce them for its Air Force.

Electronics

Electronic equipment, primarily radar, in China stands at approximately the same level as its engines. Chinese designs fall short of the capabilities of their Russian, European and American counterparts. Although China has been gradually narrowing the gap, it still has to import modern electronic equipment for its aircraft.

The best aircraft radar systems are currently made for Russia's Su-30MKK fighters, and China will most likely copy this design. It is not clear how much it will differ in terms of specifications from next-generation Russian or American radar systems.

Weapons

The guided weapons used in the Chinese Air Force were mostly copied from U.S., Israeli and Russian prototypes made in the 1960s through 1980s. China will have to spend a great deal of time and effort to develop its own weapons, even if it borrows elements of prototypes bought from other countries. But foreign producers are becoming increasingly wary of sharing their next-generation technology with China.

Conclusions

Since the 1970s, China has consistently lagged 15 to 20 years behind the world leaders in aircraft manufacturing. This was true of their third- and fourth-generation aircraft, and this appears to be the case with its fifth-generation fighter plane.

The J-20 fighter was produced nearly 20 year after the U.S. YF-22 (the prototype of the mass-produced F-22A), 17 years after the Russian MiG-1.44 (MiG-MFI, or Multifunctional Frontline Fighter), and 14 after Russia's S.37 (Su-47).

If the J-20 is accepted as the prototype for a new series, China will be able to produce a fifth-generation fighter plane within 10 years. If not, it will begin batch production no sooner than 15 or 20 years from now.

No one knows for sure what will happen, but it's certainly not too early to make predictions about the future of the new plane.

Given its traditional policy of aircraft manufacturing, China will most likely create a functional analogue of foreign-made 5G planes that will cost 50% to 80% less than Russian and U.S. models. China will most likely sell the plane in Central Asia, the Middle East, Latin America and Southeast Asia, as well as to the richest African countries.

The export models of the J-20 and the planes of that series made for the Chinese Air Force will have foreign, including Russian, equipment and weapons. Moreover, in the next 20 to 30 years China will have to continue to import modern aircraft technology. Despite the strides made by China's aircraft designers in the last 20 years, China has only slightly narrowed the technological gap dividing it from the global leaders.

The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 12 Feb 2011 14:07

^^^
Again the doubting thomases are back, this time in full force. This is not 1970, this is 2011. What is true in 1970 need not be true in 2011.
Since J-20 has flown ahead of what the so called experts predicted, I am extremely chary of giving any weight ages to these doubting Thomas.

Even if the J-20 is based on stolen or borrowed or influenced on some tom-dick-harry russian/american/European fighter, that does not in any diminish the possible threat that it posses. Even if J-20 flies on some Russian engine, that does not imply that it will less capable than PAK-FA/T-50. Even if China has to depend on some European source for its composites, that does not imply that J-20 will not have significant stealth capability.
Even our LCA is dependent on significant American and European support. Ditto for EFT/Grippen/Rafael which all have significant contribution from outside their owner countries.

The proportion of J-20 dependent on foreign suppliers does not in any way diminish what J-20 represents. And frankly pitting J-20 against American fighters is an academic exercise as far as India is concerned. What we will need to pit J-20 is against SU-30MKI/T-50 and the eventual MMRCA winner.

I hope that J-20 is not as capable as proposed PAK-FA/T-50. I also hope that china is not able to field significant number of J-20 fighters against India. Numbers which might overwhelm our own PAK-FA/T-50. It is said that in 1962 we made a major miscalculation, by not using our IAF. I certainly hope we do not make a different type of miscalculation this time.

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Feb 2011 15:29

The Russians would have the best idea regarding the 'capability' of the J 20 ., having said that would they be forthcoming about those details with India.Anyway its always best to prepare for a worst case scenario.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2011 18:38

There are multiple topics here. One of them happens to be to prepare for an eventuality - that is an on-going process. However, there are others that are about making observations (good and bad), which is what those two articles are about. For sure some amount of tilt (this or that way) is inherent in such articles. The real J-20 (as with the PAK-FA - with all those 5th gen rivets) - I suspect - is about 8-10 years away. Note that the F-22 took 10 years to get to where it is now.

Now back to preparing for a threat. India is still in the game of preparing for threats from air crafts that barely fly as compared to the J-20.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Feb 2011 03:05

'China ready to go to war to safeguard national interests'

The piece said countries like Japan, India, Vietnam, Australia, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Korea are trying to join the anti-China group because they either had a war or a conflict of interest with China.

"What is especially unbearable is how the US blatantly encourages China's neighbouring countries to go against China. We cannot completely blame the US, as flies do not stare at seamless eggs.