Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 28 Jan 2011 10:10

^^^^ Finally the IA has decided to better keep the Arjun on border guard and spare the tins for ceremonies

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Jan 2011 12:06

The tins might get inferiority complex, thats why

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 28 Jan 2011 16:59

Does the Arjun MK2 sport any physical changes as well(Reactive armour??)? If yes, can somebody point out any photos with the changes?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jan 2011 18:35

^^It is still under development. So there are no pictures. There was news recently that the Mk2 is slated for summer trials this year. Maybe we'll get some pics then.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jan 2011 19:02

If you show pics of NERA, then by the time it reaches ddm, it becomes ERA.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 30 Jan 2011 12:02

For the jingoes of Arjun tank.... Take it FWIW...
A Tamil regional channel telecasted a show on 26th Jan where it took Tamil actor Karthik to CVRDE and HVF. He spoke to the director of the HVF and also tried driving Arjun Tank. I'm just posting the video of that show here.
link
In this video at around 8.00 they are showing the Arjun driving simulator and at last karthik tries his hand in driving the real Arjun..

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 30 Jan 2011 12:34

dinakar wrote:For the jingoes of Arjun tank.... Take it FWIW...
A Tamil regional channel telecasted a show on 26th Jan where it took Tamil actor Karthik to CVRDE and HVF. He spoke to the director of the HVF and also tried driving Arjun Tank. I'm just posting the video of that show here.
link
In this video at around 8.00 they are showing the Arjun driving simulator and at last karthik tries his hand in driving the real Arjun..

That's pretty neat. Got the point across (considering the non-jingo target audience) in a simple way without resorting to hysterics. And we get a look at the simulator

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Jan 2011 13:07

Nice Video. I'd give anything to even get in that simulator, let alone drive the tank itself. Also notice the Crimson Tide soundtrack playing when the actor is attempting to drive the Arjun.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 06 Feb 2011 18:38

These, 2 brochures were on Display DEFEXPO 2010. Is there is any news on these ?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 06 Feb 2011 23:36

^ Hasnt this been in the making for many years.. or has it been in service for long?
either which way, it doesnt make it to 26 Jan parade

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 Feb 2011 10:01

Arjun tank to get more Indian muscle

DRDO chief VK Saraswat said the German engine on the current version of the tank would be replaced by an Indian power plant and the new variant (Arjun Mk-II) would have 90% indigenous component. The existing tank may be hailed as an indigenous project but imported items such as power pack, gunner's main sight and track account for 58% of the cost per tank.

Saraswat, also the scientific adviser to the defence minister, told HT at Aero India-2011, "The new variant will have high indigenous quotient, except for some hydraulic and electronic systems. The tank should be ready in early 2014. It will feature several modifications including superior missile firing capabilities.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Feb 2011 10:13

2014?...then couple years of "comparative trials" with super duper t-90 XYZ variant...eh we'll c...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Feb 2011 11:34

None of the above SP Arty systems are in place.....105mm is not required while Bhim was killed courtsey one renuka choudhary.....

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 12 Feb 2011 20:17

Can a auto loader be retro fitted into Arjun Turret ? Why is CVRDE not thinking on that line ?
It can reduce the number of persons inside the tank from 4 to 3.
IA is used to 3 persons inside the tank

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Feb 2011 20:23

why??

I might argue I prefer the 4th person in the crew

Its not like we are having a shortage of people

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 12 Feb 2011 20:41

Surya wrote:why??

I might argue I prefer the 4th person in the crew

Its not like we are having a shortage of people

One reason could be Space inside the tank can be saved which can be utilized for more ammo or gadgets or fuel.
Did you think on this line ?
Infact, I want to know if there could be other advantages by having a auto loader. May be someone who knows tanks better will be able to answer that. May be speed of reloading the Gun can be increased. May it would be safer to have a auto loader as a manual loader would use his hands to reload the gun and the gun re loads quite fast and accidents in reloading can be avoided.
May be there could be disadvantages as well.
Any answers Surya Ji ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Feb 2011 21:20

no need for ji

Normally the 3 man crew advantage would be a more compact tank rather thant he fuel\ammo

except for the Russians who pretty much are running out of men

After seeing the autoloader in confined spaces I will not risk an autoloader flying around anywhere near me and prefer the extra crew - (more arms have been lost to autoloader than accidents than due to manual reloading) - and unless the crew is exhausted completly the human loader can perform it pretty fast - - who can also double up for one of the other role

A little more ammo and fuel to me does not buy me a lot.

I would rather have a more battle ready crew with access to ammo\fuel nearby (logistics)

vic · Post by **vic** » 12 Feb 2011 22:14

Autoloader is also used by French, South Korean, Japanese tanks

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 12 Feb 2011 22:42

Surya,
War is not a 10 – 5 Job, in case of a war a Tank unit has to be on 24X7 duty. So, a manual loader will be prone to exhaustion some time or the other. Imagine the weight of shells a Manual loader has to pull out and load into the gun. And saying a loader is a soldier and is physically fit to carry out this operation, won’t be a very strong argument. Majority of the tanks Indian Army is currently using is having auto loader and Indian Army in general is used to auto loaders in recent times. Again, giving examples of old tanks in Indian Army’s inventory would not be a strong argument either.
I was just suggesting if a auto loader can be retro fitted in Arjun, it would automate the process and a soldier will be saved from doing a manually exhaustive job.

And additional ammo or fuel doesn’t have any weightage according to you in case of War scenario ?
Did you also take into consideration the addition amount of ration that has to be carried for an extra soldier in case of War scenario ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Feb 2011 22:57

War can be 24 x 7 but I do not see the loader is loading nonstop 24 x7 - which is what I mentioned.

SP arty yes but tanks nah (having said that the loaders task is nmore physical and I would rest him more)

You are going to carry what 40 to 50 rounds

there is only that much you are going to fire.

And additional ammo or fuel doesn’t have any weightage according to you in case of War scenario ?

please read what i said - you are going to have only an incremental number

I would prefer it to be nearby in the logistics chain and avail

Again all I am saying is that in all the trials the Arjun has been made to go through there was nothing that indicated an autoloader helps (at least none i have read).

I personally do not like the flying piece of metal in that confined space.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 12 Feb 2011 23:54

Surya wrote:You are going to carry what 40 to 50 rounds

What is wrong with 10 more rounds ? Or are you planning to depend on supply lines say for a 10 day mission ? Or are you thinking in 10 days soldier will fire 40 – 50 rounds and anything more than that soldier will ask for over time as we do sometimes in our office. Saturday work means more perks !!

Surya wrote:there is only that much you are going to fire.

How do you know how long a mission would last ? Assumptions ? Say if Arjun goes up to Karachi in 10 days .

Surya wrote:please read what i said - you are going to have only an incremental number

Every incremental number would count. 100 litres more fuel actually would translate to 20 -24 more Kms for Arjun.

Surya wrote:I would prefer it to be nearby in the logistics chain and avail.

In a war situation, first thing that is done is cut enemy supply lines. That even the Talibans knows and they always try to cut the US supply lines through Peshawar.

Surya wrote:I personally do not like the flying piece of metal in that confined space.

Even I don’t like that but chances of getting in contact with flying metal increases in case of manual loading, if you have seen videos of manual loading. I was suggesting auto loading for precisely this reason, just to keep the loader away from flying metal.

Vivek K wrote:Incremental improvement in miniscule numbers while no improvement in the large orders to the T-90 ?

That is just a Tin Can compared to our Arjun. Let it be that way. It has no hope and why waste money in improving that ? Rather I would say stop Tin Can production and increase Arjun production.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2011 00:46

In a war situation, first thing that is done is cut enemy supply lines. That even the Talibans knows and they always try to cut the US supply lines through Peshawar

Wow

you are entitled to your views

Singha had posted the Pzh 2000 with an autoloader which was scary as hell.

But if you feel they are fine go for it
So far a lot of tanks seem to be doing perfectly fine without autoloader.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 00:49

dri ji, hold your horses for a moment. surya sahab knows a fair bit about mil stuff through his very odd chai habits which lets him meet a fair qty of chaiwallas.

about autoloader, your common sense instinct about autoloaders is correct but please consider a couple of points.

> the russian style auto loader is what creates the vulnerability problems in the T-72/90 design. also, the autoloader restricts the size of the ammo which reduces its capability. I do not know if the leclerc or the korean K2 has same or similar problems. the japanese make tanks for driving around their islands in fun, they also make sure that it is light enough so that the roads are not damaged. the tank is probably good but as with all things jap military it is hidden to us. I won't be surprised if it's actually a transformer.

anyway
> about the arjun's 4 man crew it was IA that chose that western tank design philosophy with 4 crew.

now it's possible IA might want 3 man crew in FMBT whatever but the adoption of that would depend on whether the tech of the day manages to overcome the particular problems of the AL. (the ones I mentioned + the ones surya sahab said)

if it's not possible then no biggy because our army has engoug men to man tanks. it can spare one more for each.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 13 Feb 2011 01:20

Rahul M wrote:dri ji, hold your horses for a moment. surya sahab knows a fair bit about mil stuff through his very odd chai habits which lets him meet a fair qty of chaiwallas.

Rahul Ji, I fully agree with you. I can see Surya Ji is an oldie here and I can take it for granted that he knows more than me from the way he has been answering my queries. I have full respect for him

Actually, I must accept I have never seen the inside of a Tank with my naked eye

Infact, I was learning from him by asking him questions. My question was why don't we have an auto loader retro fitted in Arjun, so as give a life to the poor loader and save some space to carry some more ammo or fuel.

I think I got the answers from both of you. A big thanks to both of you.

vic · Post by **vic** » 13 Feb 2011 10:08

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 471513.cms

Bofors guns may now be made in India
Shishir Arya, TNN, Feb 11, 2011, 06.15am IST
Article

The gun that blazed a trail of controversy may be finally made at home (Is it back door entry for BAE and Bofors as OFB wiseman cannot even reverse engineer a chaddi?) . It is likely that the Ordnance Factory Board would get an order from Indian Army for making the 155x45 mm Bofors-type howitzers. This is the same specification purchased by the Indian army amidst all the controversy in mid-1980s (Incorrect it was 155x39). At the same time, the army has floated global tenders for the higher version of 155 X 52 mm caliber guns.

Director general (DG) of OFB D M Gupta told TOI certain formalities pertaining to the order were yet to be finalised. He was in city to attend a conference of OF workers on quality management. The guns would be made using a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement already in place with the Swedish original equipment maker AB Bofors after the guns were purchased (Ahh yes, back door entry, as I said above).

The order is expected to be placed in a couple of months. The OFB is hopeful because the order may be placed on nomination basis meaning there would be no other contender, added a senior official in this organisation. (Who wants competition? They will have cut down on the bribes and or sloth)The TOT agreement that the OFB had entered into allows it to make the spares as well further strengthen its case. The OFB already has the set-up and the government has a policy of encouraging indigenous production if there is capacity, added the DG.

If the order is bagged, this would be for the first time that such guns would be entirely made in India. The production was expected to be undertaken at the Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur, which makes the 105mm Indian Field Guns, the only indigenously developed howitzers. Earlier, the factory had upgraded the existing 155x45 guns (Incorrect it was 1555x39). purchased from Sweden to 155x52 mm (Incorrect - There is no such upgrade in open source info, he is confusing 130mm upgrade he has mentioned subsequently->) as well as the 130 mm guns to 155 mm, added a source. (or perhaps he is referring to offers made by OFB to upgrade 155mm and 130mm guns which was not accepted?). However, fresh order is expected only for making the 155x45 mm gun as global tenders have been floated for 155x52 mm guns.

Howitzers are identified by their barrel diameter. In case of 155x45 mm the first figure (155) refers to the diameter of the barrel while second (45) is indicates length of barrel is 45 times that of diameter. This fires a shell up to 30 kms while the 155X52 mm has the range of 40 kms.

The OFB would also be undertaking a programme of increasing production of Pinaka rockets that have a range of over 35 km, (42 km?) said Gupta. Without divulging the figures, he said the capacity would be more than doubled. "There were problems relating to its functioning in cold areas which have been sorted out and soon a programme of scaling up the production will be undertaken. Similar initiatives will be undertaken for augmenting production of shells for T-90 and Arjun tanks too. Other expansion programmes entailing Rs 2,000 crore are also awaiting approval of the government," he added.

Gupta said this financial year, the OFB would be clocking a 29% rise in turnover at Rs 11,208 crore as against Rs 8715 crore in previous fiscal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2011 10:15

May be he was misquoted? Most likely there is a OFB 155mm gun in development. The previous work is being cited as experience.

The old TOT which wasn't used, the 130mm upgrade and might be some barrel swap not reported all were channeled or leverage.

vic · Post by **vic** » 13 Feb 2011 10:16

ramana wrote:May be he was misquoted? Most likely there is a OFB 155mm gun in development. The previous work is being cited as experience.

The old TOT which wasn't used, the 130mm upgrade and might be some barrel swap not reported all were channeled or leverage.

Pls see my edits above

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Feb 2011 10:37

dinakar wrote:For the jingoes of Arjun tank.... Take it FWIW...
A Tamil regional channel telecasted a show on 26th Jan where it took Tamil actor Karthik to CVRDE and HVF. He spoke to the director of the HVF and also tried driving Arjun Tank. I'm just posting the video of that show here.
link
In this video at around 8.00 they are showing the Arjun driving simulator and at last karthik tries his hand in driving the real Arjun..

That turret and main gun seems to be stable as a rock!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Feb 2011 00:20

Sometimes I really think that some BRFite oldies would prefer seeing two divisions of Indian Armour slogging it out rather than doing the TSPA armor.

No more from me here now

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 Feb 2011 00:31

Raja Bose wrote:
dinakar wrote:For the jingoes of Arjun tank.... Take it FWIW...
A Tamil regional channel telecasted a show on 26th Jan where it took Tamil actor Karthik to CVRDE and HVF. He spoke to the director of the HVF and also tried driving Arjun Tank. I'm just posting the video of that show here.
link
In this video at around 8.00 they are showing the Arjun driving simulator and at last karthik tries his hand in driving the real Arjun..
That turret and main gun seems to be stable as a rock!

Yep. Hope this T-killer one day forms the bulk of our armour. What a beauty!

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 14 Feb 2011 05:03

^^ very nice link . Sivakumar explained the characteristics very well. interesting to see Karthik very pro defense and continuously praising the countries armed forces.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Feb 2011 09:35

SriSri wrote:Upgraded Arjun MBT Mark-II Serial Production to Begin in 2014

...

What is the progress on the second batch of 124 Arjun Mk.1?

The production of the first lot of 124 Arjun Mk.1 are to be completed first half of this year. So if the production of the second lot of 124 units is started this year and at 50 tanks/year current production rate, it will finish by 2014, which will coincide perfectly with the planned Arjun Mk.2 serial production date.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Feb 2011 11:11

Thank you, pandyan, for taking the time to take notes for us from the Arjun video. Was a pleasure to read.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 15 Feb 2011 12:58

SriSri saar

Is it serial production for sure or just fielding of prototypes ?

Pandyan

thanks from me too. I couldn't understand a word of what they were saying. Your description helped a lot.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Feb 2011 13:43

Does anyone know what happened to the Tank-Ex experiement? AFAIK, some squadrons were equipped for trials, and it offered the best of both worlds.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 15 Feb 2011 13:52

jamwal wrote:SriSri saar

Is it serial production for sure or just fielding of prototypes ?

Sir, First line of the report:
"After more than 90 upgrades, an advanced variant of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) will undergo serial production in 2014."

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 15 Feb 2011 14:26

I read that too, but was kind of incredulous considering the super awesome light weight machine that IA wants for a MBT

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Feb 2011 16:01

tsarkar wrote:Does anyone know what happened to the Tank-Ex experiement? AFAIK, some squadrons were equipped for trials, and it offered the best of both worlds.

Tank Ex to be an Indian T-72 upgrade option

The Tank Ex tale has taken a new twist. Two Tank Ex have been sanctioned for Indian Army T-72 upgrade possibility.....The two prototypes are to be tested by the Indian Army for the T-72 upgrades. During DEFEXPO 2010, Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T) and Raytheon Company announced teaming up in a L&T led proposal submitted this month to upgrade Indian Army T72 tanks.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Feb 2011 17:29

jamwal wrote:I read that too, but was kind of incredulous considering the super awesome light weight machine that IA wants for a MBT

That was only the points for a feasibility study for a long term plan.

But this order is nothing to be "happy" about frankly.

I will be happy when I read of the tank line being upgraded to 100 (or more) from the current 50.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Feb 2011 18:13

tsarkar wrote:Does anyone know what happened to the Tank-Ex experiement? AFAIK, some squadrons were equipped for trials, and it offered the best of both worlds.

last I heard the T-72 chasis had problems handling the recoil of gandiva.