LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2011 18:01

viktor wrote:Guru log, finally figured out the way to merge clips and add titles to it. I am feeling "dhanya dhanya". There it goes.

"Composite clip of HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) flying at Aero India 2011 (Yelhanka AFS, Bangalore/Bengaluru). Also visible is DRDO aerostat in background. Also visible in the video are Dornier Do-228, An-32, Su-30MKI and Gripen among other aircrafts.

LCH is based around HAL Dhruv (Advanced Light Helicopter - ALH) and is an indigenous effort."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suIR5ME4rL4

Good stuff

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 14 Feb 2011 21:37

The LUH glass cockpit looks superb..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VbSnFccvKdY/T ... 600/z7.jpg

viktor · Post by **viktor** » 14 Feb 2011 23:26

Shukriya Shivji.

*Fighter line up video shifted to Aero India 2011 thread.*

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 15 Feb 2011 02:44

Sriman wrote:The LUH glass cockpit looks superb..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VbSnFccvKdY/T ... 600/z7.jpg

A new video with LCH team on Tarmak.. Hari Nair features too...

Its nice to see that IA/IAF personnel are directly involved even with the LUH from the begining.. good sign for the future..

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Feb 2011 06:59

Launching Tarmak007 Videos (TV-007): Here's roll out with Team LCH

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 15 Feb 2011 09:48

Very nice video.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Feb 2011 11:39

Video Grab from TARMAK007's LCH video.
(I WISH TARMAK007 WOULD NOT ROTATE HIS CAMERA FROM HORIZONTAL TO VERTICAL POSITION WHEN HE WANTS TO LOOK BEYOND THE SCREEN WITH THE CAMERA ROLLING - Its Jarring to the viewer, and not good camera etiquette)

Dual controls

The LCH weapons boom:
This is not aerodynamically shaped at all, is not angulated in its attachment to the helo body, and appears to be too small to generate any lift.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Feb 2011 12:19

about the weapons boom it has been mentioned the *second* kala billi (more a spotted billi now) has the aerodyamic little wing.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 15 Feb 2011 12:41

Gagan wrote:The LCH weapons boom:
This is not aerodynamically shaped at all, is not angulated in its attachment to the helo body.....

It is not blunt faceted but has a sharp edge that brings together two facets. Of course it is not too sharp because it needs some thickness to bear the loads and cannot have a curved or rounded edge as it is stealth and has facets instead for deflection.

Gagan wrote:The LCH weapons boom:
.............. and appears to be too small to generate any lift.

If the philosophy is to reduce the widths to reduce probability of hit(like the narrow frontal c.s. for e.g.) then why do you want to increase the boom area merely for some lift as the wider area will also increase its vulnerability to ground fire? It is not a big gunship like Mi-24. Also unlike a plane its lift necessity in mountains is going to be abruptly vertical and not so much for smooth horizontal flights. For a lift like vertical climb a wider boom would give more drag to the air thrust down from the chopper's rotor above.

JMT

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 15 Feb 2011 13:54

putnanja wrote:Launching Tarmak007 Videos (TV-007): Here's roll out with Team LCH

I saw Hari Nair in the video *expression of star-stricken awe*

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 16 Feb 2011 19:06

viktor wrote:paging Hari Nair ji, pls drop a line at IndIa DefeNce dat IN at geemail daat com.

Viktor, I don't understand - is that an e-mail id? and if so, whose?

@ babupandey - "I saw Hari Nair in the video *expression of star-stricken awe*"
- Hey - I was just trying to give a polite & civilised look to Ananth's cam.

- Hari

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2011 19:16

Sir, any luck about a decent video of the LCH's routine with HAL's PR dept ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2011 20:31

I believe this goes into the LCH.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... r.jpg.html

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Feb 2011 21:22

The LCH Performance at Aero India 2011 was very good

Being a Patch collector would Love to have Sarang, LCH & LCA Patches in my collection. But when these patches start showing up in Ebay which is my only source for now I will be facing very tough competition

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 16 Feb 2011 21:30

Rahul M wrote:I believe this goes into the LCH.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... r.jpg.html

Radar absorbing material also on the right side pics

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Feb 2011 12:13

Indranil Roy ji/Kartik ji tarmak has new pic of lch td02, please present your analysis on the armament boom and the lift provided by the shape.
lch td02 pic

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2011 12:17

this is where N3 with his specialization in rotorcraft could have been great for analysis and speculations..sigh.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Feb 2011 13:22

suryag wrote:Indranil Roy ji/Kartik ji tarmak has new pic of lch td02, please present your analysis on the armament boom and the lift provided by the shape.
lch td02 pic

Please do away with the ji for me. Kartik is the true guru here.

This is not the new armament boom. Hari Nair sahab told us that the boom should be there by March/April

. Obviously this present armament boom will be much more draggy than the an aerofoil.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Feb 2011 16:58

From Anantha Krishnan's blog tarmak007:
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/02/d ... r-lch.html

This new paint scheme will give the LCH a great advantage, as it becomes impossible for it to be seen through any thermal devices.

How does that work?

I get that different colours will have different temperature but will it be that great to confuse the thermal imagers? In any case, won't the temperature be much greater than the surrounding anyway?

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 17 Feb 2011 17:35

^^
He might be a bit confused - I think he means it won't be visible/ easily visible through NVGs, not thermal imagers. I believe some digital camo patterns (the Canadian army uses these) are designed to be 'invisible' or at least problematic for NVGs/image intensifier-type devices.

nits · Post by **nits** » 17 Feb 2011 17:52

India goes shopping for multi-role helicopters

India has turned down an American offer to supply 16 multi-role helicopters (MRH) through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route for its Navy and decided to go for open competitive bidding for the multi-billion dollar deal.

The US Navy had offered the MH-60 'Romeo' to meet Navy's requirement for 16 MRH through an inter-governmental agreement but the proposal was rejected, Defence Ministry sources said.

Following the Indian government's decision, only two contenders American S-70 Bravo and European NH-90 remain in the fray to take part in the field evaluation trials, the sources said. The trials are expected to start after March this year. The tender was issued over two years ago in September 2008.

Observations

1) India might want to do away with immediate FMS deal due to recent M777 Issue
2) Tender was issued in Sep 2008 and Trial to start in March 2010; why does it take so much time just to start the trial when tender is out 2 years back...?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 17 Feb 2011 17:57

Gaur wrote:From Anantha Krishnan's blog tarmak007:
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/02/d ... r-lch.html
This new paint scheme will give the LCH a great advantage, as it becomes impossible for it to be seen through any thermal devices.
How does that work?
I get that different colours will have different temperature but will it be that great to confuse the thermal imagers? In any case, won't the temperature be much greater than the surrounding anyway?

Will appreciate if you can post some background about this digital camouflage paint scheme. I really could not find anything by myself.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Feb 2011 18:04

^^
Thats the problem. AFAIK, there is not rally any background. To me, this looks like just a paint scheme to make visual detection difficult (along the lines of US Marines's MARPAT). The difference in temperature of different colours will be negligible. Thats why I was asking if someone else has come across any different.
So, I think that vardhank may be correct that the IAF officer got confused/had a slip of tongue. His explanation of what the Officer meant to say makes sense to me.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2011 18:22

nits wrote: Following the Indian government's decision, only two contenders American S-70 Bravo and European NH-90 remain in the fray to take part in the field evaluation trials, the sources said.

Bad news. No EH-101 Merlin.
Probably deemed too expensive by our VIPs riding in AW-101s.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 17 Feb 2011 18:48

Googled this digital camo pattern (the Canadian one is called CADPAT), and it appears it can defeat IR scopes, or Near-Infrared at least, which confuses the issue a little. I don't know whether that means it can defeat HEAT-sensing equipment, or whether it just defeats a visual wavelength known as Near-Infrared. Perhaps the IAF officer was not that far off after all, in saying in saying that it defeats thermal imagers.
Also, I can't actually find anything that says HOW digital patterns do this - would love it if anyone has info on this.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Feb 2011 19:38

http://www.hyperstealth.com/digital-design/index.htm

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 17 Feb 2011 19:50

@ Krishnan
Thanks. Good primer. Anything on CADPAT and Near-Infrared?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2011 21:19

Wasn't the EH-101 or AW-101 plagued with issues and canada was trying to get rid of its fleet ? They also seem to have low uptime/availability with the forces it serves.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 21:47

I think the NH-90 was the one having major problems.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2011 22:11

Rahul M wrote:I think the NH-90 was the one having major problems.

The operational availability of the EH-101 helicopters was on average about 50 percent in the first six months of 2008. The Defence has increased the operational availability of the EH-101 helicopters from around 30 percent at the beginning of 2008 to the current level.

http://www.rigsrevisionen.dk/media%2870 ... opters.pdf

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_prin ... 7&sponsor=

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Feb 2011 09:51

nits wrote:1) India might want to do away with immediate FMS deal due to recent M777 Issue
2) Tender was issued in Sep 2008 and Trial to start in March 2010; why does it take so much time just to start the trial when tender is out 2 years back...?

1. FMS is a government to government deal, and like Indo-Russian G2G deals, the seller's govt gives assurance. This allowed us to iron us Talwar bugs with relative ease. UK, French deals are with companies, enforcing becomes a pain, Eg Scorpene price increase, Hawk shoddy jigs/parts.
2. Because none of the helicopters offered has its bugs fully ironed out yet, whether Aw101/S-92/S-70/NH90.

My take - India takes up license production of Mi-17, that is robust despite age, and add the maritime featues of Mi-14 Haze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-14 that can land in water like Seaking, and add SV2000 radar (already added to Ka-25 &/or Ka-28), TAL, Mihir and Tadpole.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Feb 2011 10:22

tsarkar wrote: My take - India takes up license production of Mi-17, that is robust despite age, and add the maritime featues of Mi-14 Haze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-14 that can land in water like Seaking, and add SV2000 radar (already added to Ka-25 &/or Ka-28), TAL, Mihir and Tadpole.

Doesn't KA-28 have the russian radar on it ? I thought SV2000 wasn't in serial production.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 18 Feb 2011 11:59

vardhank wrote:@ Krishnan
Thanks. Good primer. Anything on CADPAT and Near-Infrared?

It is not the infrared. It is the pixel based display.

When you watch a scene through a display system that is pixel based, your eye tend to detect the patterns within the pixels, and the digital camo uses the same pixelation to confuse the eye. It works on any pixel based display, such as night vision. The camo will effective only if the pattern is visible on the screen.

But coming to thermal imaging, it will work only if the colours of the camo is differently insulating, so that it will look different in colour in the display. If you just paint a metal surface in the camo and look at it through a thermal scope, the painting pattern will not be visible, so it will not help. But imagine the white segments painted in heat conductive paint and the dark ones in insulating foam, then it is likely that the pattern would show on a thermal imager, and hence the camo will work.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 19 Feb 2011 05:14

Aero India: HAL Ambitious on Helicopters, as Indian Requirements Multiply

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has an ambitious plan to design, develop and manufacture 1,500 helicopters in next 10 years. According to a senior HAL official, "100 of those will be advanced light helicopters (ALH), 300 will be light utility helicopters (LUH) and the rest will be multi-role helicopters (MRH)."HAL will invest $4.4 billion to modernize and expand its capacity to execute current orders worth $22 billion.

A mockup of the indigenous LUH attracted attention at the Aero India show. It is a three-ton-class helicopter designed to meet both civil and military requirements. These include the Indian armed forces requirement for 384 reconnaissance and surveillance hHelicopters to replace the Cheetah/Chetak series.

The armed forces overturned the selection of the Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec for the RSH, as the program was called in 2009, and another competition ordered. Field evaluation trials of the Fennec against the Russian Ka-226 have now been completed, and the report is expected in a few weeks. To fulfil the Indian Armed Forces requirement for the RSH, 197 foreign helicopters will be procured, together with 187 LUHs produced by HAL.

The LUH will be powered by a single Shakti engine, jointly developed with Safran. It will fly at 120 knots with a service ceiling of 21,300 feet; the range with a 900-pound payload will be 190 nm. HAL will complete the design of the LUH by August, and the first of three prototypes will fly by 2013. Initial operational clearance is expected by end 2014. Production will begin from 2015 at 10 LUHs in the first year and increase gradually to 36 a year. All 187 LUHs will be built by 2022.

HAL's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) made its public debut at the Aero India show. It has completed between 50 and 60 hours of flying. A second prototype was on static display. Certification is expected by end 2013. India is also considering an offer of 22 Boeing AH-64D Apache attack helicopters.

HAL handed over the first five Dhruv ALH Mk-III helicopters to the Indian Army during the show. The new high-powered Shakti engines have 12 to 15 percent enhanced performance compared to the earlier version, providing the Mk-III with an extra 330 pounds of payload. HAL has an order for another 154 ALHs from the army.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 19 Feb 2011 10:14

AINOnline wrote:Aero India: HAL Ambitious on Helicopters, as Indian Requirements Multiply
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has an ambitious plan to design, develop and manufacture 1,500 helicopters in next 10 years. According to a senior HAL official, "100 of those will be advanced light helicopters (ALH), 300 will be light utility helicopters (LUH) and the rest will be multi-role helicopters (MRH)."HAL will invest $4.4 billion to modernize and expand its capacity to execute current orders worth $22 billion.

Acording to Mr. Anand and Mahura Katti, In ten years
100 - ALH
300 - LUH
Rest (=1100) - MRH (or IMRH)

Isn't it true that 150+ ALH are already on order by IA (5 delivered in AI-2011).
Isn't it also true that as if today IA has shown requirement for only 167 LUH's (plus 197 from imports)
Isn't it also true that IMRH is still on papers and is not yet sanctioned.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... opter.html
Hindustan Aeronautics is studying the development of a medium multi-role helicopter that can replace the Indian air force's fleet of Mi-17s.
The project is still at the early stages and has not been sanctioned by either the service or the defence ministry yet, says Prasad Sampath, general manager of HAL's rotary wing research and design centre.
"We have identified that there will be a requirement for this type of helicopter and have been talking to the service on what they could need. Based on these, we have begun our initial studies," he adds.

What should i say now to Mr. Anand and Mahura Katti!! ..make your numbers right man!

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 19 Feb 2011 10:43

Boreas wrote: Rest (=1100) - MRH (or IMRH)

HAL Cheetah and LCH is also included in the rest other then any Helicopter which HAL may decide to manufacture in the course of next 10 yrs.
The plan is for next 10 yrs

vic · Post by **vic** » 19 Feb 2011 10:49

I think that

LUH-300
Additional ALH-300
LCH- 200
Then IMRH- has to be around 300 to 600, but IMRH would just start flying around 2015-18 and it would be impossible to built so many in next 2-5 years.

I think that 1500 should read as "500"

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 19 Feb 2011 18:59

LCH TD-2 , another Weapon loadout at AeroIndia.

Tarmak 007 link -> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WUXThagm7EI/T ... 00/LCH.jpg
Apologies if already posted elsewhere..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Feb 2011 19:08

great shot !

don't read too much into the numbers break-down, DDM confuses them all the time.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 19 Feb 2011 19:23

Improvisations on LCH TD-2