Indian Naval Discussion

nash · Post by **nash** » 08 Mar 2011 14:22

@suryag

Thanks for your information ..it very much similar like the wiki link, there they are doing airship of 1920s-30s.

Now it used for ship

Tej · Post by **Tej** » 08 Mar 2011 17:04

http://frontierindia.net/russian-built- ... ing-trials

Tej · Post by **Tej** » 08 Mar 2011 17:07

Russian built Indian Aircraft Carrier “INS Vikramaditya” begins mooring trials

http://frontierindia.net/russian-built- ... ing-trials

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Mar 2011 17:37

Anujan wrote:

Check out the wake of the second ship from the left.

Seems to have either lost her rudder or someone is DUI.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 09 Mar 2011 04:09

NRao wrote:
Check out the wake of the second ship from the left.

Seems to have either lost her rudder or someone is DUI.

lol

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Mar 2011 06:54

SNaik wrote:
I suppose the general manager of Yantar knows better. January 2012 is revised date for Tarkash which was initially scheduled for 2011 as well.

I sure hope so...
I guess you missed my sarcasm in the post with the regular delayed syndrome that IN has suffered with it's acquisition with vessels procured from stateside! case in point, Russia, Italy, France need I say more?

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 Mar 2011 07:06

INS Vikramaditya Dock Trials Begin in Severodvinsk Naval Yard

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Mar 2011 14:22

Indian Officer in Severodvinsk Honey-Trap
Barents Observer

Natasha

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2011 17:13

^^ Isnt that an old news that you are posting ,well the picture is new though so credit goes to you

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 09 Mar 2011 21:00

Anujan wrote:X-posting:

Eat your heart out SDREs!! Pakistan navy has acquired a Delhi class destroyer and is conducting an exercise 400% better than Malabar 2010.

Here is Full page color ad in Nation newspaper. See it and shiver in your dhotis.
http://nation.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2011-03-08/page-11

Just read that those pics are of Indian navy ships and one is of US navy...

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 09 Mar 2011 21:36

Tarkash and Trikand today.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 09 Mar 2011 21:38

Austin wrote:^^ Isnt that an old news that you are posting ,well the picture is new though so credit goes to you

The original Natasha looked nowhere nearly that spectacular

John · Post by **John** » 09 Mar 2011 22:15

SNaik wrote:Tarkash and Trikand today.

Interesting that confirms earlier reports of Ak-630, so i am guessing they will be fitted with Barak later on.

maz · Post by **maz** » 10 Mar 2011 00:32

From my very limited understanding, Barak 1 works with the Elta 2221 STGR fire control radar as well as Elta 2238 search radar for target acquisition. That being said, if Barak is fitted to P-28, then we know that it can work with other directors and search radars.

snaik, please contact me.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 02:33

Maz, I emailed you yesterday, edjanko @ hotmail.com

John · Post by **John** » 10 Mar 2011 03:26

maz wrote:From my very limited understanding, Barak 1 works with the Elta 2221 STGR fire control radar as well as Elta 2238 search radar for target acquisition. That being said, if Barak is fitted to P-28, then we know that it can work with other directors and search radars.

snaik, please contact me.

Barak has been integrated with Half plate radar on Delhi they did run into issues but that was worked out. Interesting that IN doesn't seem to much love for Kashtan.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Mar 2011 06:13

John wrote:
maz wrote:From my very limited understanding, Barak 1 works with the Elta 2221 STGR fire control radar as well as Elta 2238 search radar for target acquisition. That being said, if Barak is fitted to P-28, then we know that it can work with other directors and search radars.

snaik, please contact me.
Barak has been integrated with Half plate radar on Delhi they did run into issues but that was worked out. Interesting that IN doesn't seem to much love for Kashtan.

I have always found the Barak interesting because from a size to range perspective (asumming that advancement in solid motor tech et all) its a big fat missile for a 10-15k range is it fully powered? I am guessing that big motor and those huge fins give it lots of energy and manouverability all through its flight to intercept phase?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 13:03

Vikram, mooring trials. Photo by Oleg Kuleshov.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Mar 2011 13:20

More like ice trials

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Mar 2011 14:39

^^ Automatic Command Line of Sight works this way –
1. A search and tracking radar like Fregat or Elta 2238 detects and tracks the target.
2. Fregat/2238 then cues the missile guidance radar (Elta 2221) to beam at the target, while itself still tracking the target.
3. Barak after launch, enters the 2221 wide beam, and sensors on rear fins detects and aligns the missile to the center of 2221 wide beam.
4. Missile passes from wide beam to narrow beam.
5. Missile passes from narrow beam to pencil beam.
6. When close to target, proximity fuse detonates.
7. The entire process is fully automated.
8. In the event Fregat/2238 is jammed, 2221 has a video camera/thermal imager to manually direct its beam to the target, though this is clumsy in practice.
This is how Standard/Shitil/Barak 1/Seawolf/ ESSM/Akash/Trishul missiles work. Shitil uses Orekh instead of 2221.
Next generation? Active Radar Homing + Imaging Infra Red seeker missiles like VL MICA and Spyder.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 16:22

tsarkar wrote:^^ Automatic Command Line of Sight works this way –
1. A search and tracking radar like Fregat or Elta 2238 detects and tracks the target.
2. Fregat/2238 then cues the missile guidance radar (Elta 2221) to beam at the target, while itself still tracking the target.
3. Barak after launch, enters the 2221 wide beam, and sensors on rear fins detects and aligns the missile to the center of 2221 wide beam.
4. Missile passes from wide beam to narrow beam.
5. Missile passes from narrow beam to pencil beam.
6. When close to target, proximity fuse detonates.
7. The entire process is fully automated.
8. In the event Fregat/2238 is jammed, 2221 has a video camera/thermal imager to manually direct its beam to the target, though this is clumsy in practice.
This is how Standard/Shitil/Barak 1/Seawolf/ ESSM/Akash/Trishul missiles work. Shitil uses Orekh instead of 2221.
Next generation? Active Radar Homing + Imaging Infra Red seeker missiles like VL MICA and Spyder.

Tsarkar, the description is generally correct, just some minor add-ons. Fregat (or any volume search radar) will not cue FCS directly but go through CMS. Command missile does not necessarily have to be a beam-rider, especially against sea-skimming missiles. Standard, Shtil, ESSM and Akash are not command-guided, they have terminal semi-active radar guidance, which utilizes target illuminator radar on the ship and receiver on the missile. The command link is limited for midcourse update in long-range engagements.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2011 16:44

^^ SNaik , Shtil/Shtil-1 and Akash are command guidance missile and not SARH.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Mar 2011 17:52

Yes SNaik, you’re right, I should not have generalized, Standard & ESSM & Shtil are indeed SARH, but Akash is ACLOS. Shtil was the first Russian naval missile with SARH. And I excluded the "via CMS" part for simplicity’s sake.

The reason Akash 2 cannot have more than 35 km range is because of the ACLOS limitations. However Akash was designed to deal with saturation attacks at 25 km ranges, like Pakistani bombing raids on Indian airfields in 1965 & 71. And the Pakistani's purchased Brazilian ARMs to counter Akash battery radars. And India goes Akash 2 with 35 km to outrange the 25 km Brazilian ARMs, though Spyder can target missiles & bombs that get through Akash.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Mar 2011 18:18

But Akask radar has a target range of 60+ km, a missile battery can be located 20Km closer than the Rajendra radar and target the Aircraft, in such a case ARM range for the Paki aircraft should be greater.

Wasn't Rajendra 3D Car a PESA radar which is difficult to lock on to for ARM's

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 19:01

tsarkar wrote:Yes SNaik, you’re right, I should not have generalized, Standard & ESSM & Shtil are indeed SARH, but Akash is ACLOS. Shtil was the first Russian naval missile with SARH. And I excluded the "via CMS" part for simplicity’s sake.

The reason Akash 2 cannot have more than 35 km range is because of the ACLOS limitations. However Akash was designed to deal with saturation attacks at 25 km ranges, like Pakistani bombing raids on Indian airfields in 1965 & 71. And the Pakistani's purchased Brazilian ARMs to counter Akash battery radars. And India goes Akash 2 with 35 km to outrange the 25 km Brazilian ARMs, though Spyder can target missiles & bombs that get through Akash.

Yes, you are right about Akash, I was misleaded by it's outward appearance (looks like Russian Kub, which is SAR).

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 19:02

Austin wrote:^^ SNaik , Shtil/Shtil-1 and Akash are command guidance missile and not SARH.

Akash is, Shtil is not. Just midcourse update.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Mar 2011 19:17

Aditya_V wrote:But Akask radar has...ESA radar which is difficult to lock on to for ARM's

Yes & Yes. I didnt want to discuss operational deployment modes earlier, but then realized it has been published long back.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Mar 2011 19:37

SNaik wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Yes SNaik, you’re right, I should not have generalized, Standard & ESSM & Shtil are indeed SARH, but Akash is ACLOS. Shtil was the first Russian naval missile with SARH. And I excluded the "via CMS" part for simplicity’s sake.

The reason Akash 2 cannot have more than 35 km range is because of the ACLOS limitations. However Akash was designed to deal with saturation attacks at 25 km ranges, like Pakistani bombing raids on Indian airfields in 1965 & 71. And the Pakistani's purchased Brazilian ARMs to counter Akash battery radars. And India goes Akash 2 with 35 km to outrange the 25 km Brazilian ARMs, though Spyder can target missiles & bombs that get through Akash.
Yes, you are right about Akash, I was misleaded by it's outward appearance (looks like Russian Kub, which is SAR).

Yeap Akash is actually based on SA-6 which is command guided as well.

andy B wrote:
I have always found the Barak interesting because from a size to range perspective (asumming that advancement in solid motor tech et all) its a big fat missile for a 10-15k range is it fully powered? I am guessing that big motor and those huge fins give it lots of energy and manouverability all through its flight to intercept phase?

Yes it is designed to be full maneuverability through out its flight to keep pace with any maneuvers by the target and it also carries a very large warhead to disable the missile even if it misses. However all this comes at cost lower max speed.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Mar 2011 19:57

John, Kub is the first Soviet SARH SAM.

maz · Post by **maz** » 10 Mar 2011 22:42

Snaik, please check your email.

On the mod 11356, I am wondering why the IN chose to go with 3s-90 launcher for Shtil instead of VLU? Just from a redundancy point of view, a single arm launcher is a bit of an anachronism isn't it?
tsarkar, good to have you back.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 11 Mar 2011 00:34

^^^
IN wants to replace them with LRSAM, hence they are going for a regular fit in terms of achieving commonality with the older ships.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 11 Mar 2011 00:55

SNaik wrote:Vikram, mooring trials. Photo by Oleg Kuleshov.

what is that circular drum on the top and what purpose it serves?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 11 Mar 2011 02:04

Baldev wrote:what is that circular drum on the top and what purpose it serves?

On Kuznecov it is Rezistor-K flight control@command system.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 11 Mar 2011 02:08

jaladipc wrote:^^^
IN wants to replace them with LRSAM, hence they are going for a regular fit in terms of achieving commonality with the older ships.

Shivalik, no doubt, is one of the IN oldest ships.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2011 07:09

I think the trick used to deal with ARMs is to site radars near center of bubble (protected by SR sam like spyder and aa guns) but site the MR sams at edge of bubble passively, so once they fire , it is at short range on inbounds ?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Mar 2011 09:59

Baldev wrote:
SNaik wrote:Vikram, mooring trials. Photo by Oleg Kuleshov.

what is that circular drum on the top and what purpose it serves?

And here was poor me thinking it was a VODKA storage drum....and piping it to all the workers all over the ship was proving difficult and a primary reason for the repeated delays....

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Mar 2011 12:05

^^ Single arm launcher much cheaper than VL Shtil, and IN didnt want to bear the cost of development.

Our money is invested in Barak-8 and after 15 years of service, the ships would be upgraded to a standard fit.

Single arm launchers is good enough for Exocet armed Mirages that were the same vintage as our soon to be attrited Harriers, Orion and Atlantiques, Chinese soviet copy transport converted to MPA, JH-7A etc etc until that time. Also ships will operate together and IN is/has networked ships. So 1 Delhi + 2 Talwar can carry 4 instantaneous engagements. Pakis & Chinese dont have resources today for further saturation. Our resources will keep matching their growth in future.

Thanks Maz!

maz · Post by **maz** » 11 Mar 2011 18:01

Will the Trikand be launched this month as announced in dec 2010. It does not look like it because the ship is still in primer.

Does this mean that Tarkash and Trikand will be delivered in early 2012 and mid 2012 respectively?

John · Post by **John** » 11 Mar 2011 20:10

SNaik wrote:John, Kub is the first Soviet SARH SAM.

Oh yes confused with SA-3s.

maz wrote:On the mod 11356, I am wondering why the IN chose to go with 3s-90 launcher for Shtil instead of VLU? Just from a redundancy point of view, a single arm launcher is a bit of an anachronism isn't it?
tsarkar, good to have you back.

Correct me if i am wrong but didn't PRC fund the development of VL Shtil, which may have played a part in IN's decision. Besides the single arm launcher can launch missiles pretty quickly, for example Ticon's MK 26s were as effective as vls cells.

Shtil's major drawback is its Orekh FCRs which VL Shtil does not address.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2011 22:20

The Russian navy is developing 5-6 11356 or Talwar class ships which retains the same capability as IN Talwar class ships with the only change seems to be VLS Shtil-1 , this ship must indeed be a good design and capability for it to be majorly adopted by Indian and Russian Navy.

Recent Military Parade magazine have shown pictures of IN Delhi ships with VLS shtil launcher where the Single Arm Launcher getting replaced by VLS tube and some additional EO system , perhaps we may see VLS Shtil-1 once Delhi goes for upgrade.