Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2011 15:45

I think the P-15A project will be delayed due to MR-SAM , considering they plan to start testing by 2012.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 19 Mar 2011 05:44

AOA
25 yrs in the making, Army inducts Akash

NEW DELHI: Indian armed forces are going in for a huge induction of the indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems to counter the threat posed by enemy fighters, drones and helicopters on both western and eastern fronts as well as protect "vital areas and installations".

Developed by DRDO after 25 years of technical glitches, the 25-km range Akash air defence weapon system finally seems to have found favour with the armed forces, who are desperate to plug existing operational gaps in air defence.

The IAF had earlier ordered eight Akash squadrons — six of them will be based in North East to counter China — for Rs 6,200 crore. Now, the Cabinet Committee on Security on Thursday cleared two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries and hundreds of missiles each, for the Army. The total order for the Army stands at Rs 14,180 crore at present.

The low-reaction-time Akash is designed to neutralise multiple aerial targets attacking from several directions simultaneously, with a digitally-coded command guidance system, in all weather conditions. "The fully-automated Akash has an 88% kill probability within a specified kill zone... It has even intercepted a target with a 0.02 sq metre of radar cross-section (a fighter has a 2 sqm RCS)," said an official.

DRDO, in fact, says the sleek 5.6-metre-long Akash, powered to carry a payload of 60 kg, can even take on sub-sonic cruise missiles. Akash, which DRDO claims is "96% indigenous", is not the only SAM system that the forces are going to induct to replace their obsolete Russian-origin Pechora, OSA-AK and Igla missiles.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 19 Mar 2011 05:59

Rakshaks,
This may be asking too much, but I'll never know unless I ask:

Can someone on this thread provide a list of all the aerial bombs currently in the inventory/acquisitions pipeline?
A lot has been posted about missiles, but not so much about aerial bombs, which I think might see more use in a potential large-scale conflict.

I am curious because I'd like to understand how/if this ordinance might be integrated with the eventual MMRCA winner.

In particular, I'm interested in unit weight, warhead weight, warhead composition, guidance, designated tasking, manufacturer and point of manufacture.

Thanks for whatever Rakshaks can offer.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Mar 2011 06:46

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Rakshaks,
This may be asking too much, but I'll never know unless I ask:

Can someone on this thread provide a list of all the aerial bombs currently in the inventory/acquisitions pipeline?

Just check into BR:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Weapons/ASM/

http://www.defenseprocurementnews.com/2 ... m-the-u-s/:

While these bigger deals percolate India has been signing some smaller ones. It was announced yesterday that Textron (TXT) will sell over five hundred aerial cluster bombs to the Indian Air Force. The contract was done as a Foreign Military Sale (FMS) from the United States government and is worth over $250 million.

Nuclear?

http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory. ... ment.shtml

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 19 Mar 2011 07:24

Craig Alpert wrote:AOA
25 yrs in the making, Army inducts Akash

NEW DELHI: Indian armed forces are going in for a huge induction of the indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems to counter the threat posed by enemy fighters, drones and helicopters on both western and eastern fronts as well as protect "vital areas and installations".

Developed by DRDO after 25 years of technical glitches, the 25-km range Akash air defence weapon system finally seems to have found favour with the armed forces, who are desperate to plug existing operational gaps in air defence.

The IAF had earlier ordered eight Akash squadrons — six of them will be based in North East to counter China — for Rs 6,200 crore. Now, the Cabinet Committee on Security on Thursday cleared two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries and hundreds of missiles each, for the Army. The total order for the Army stands at Rs 14,180 crore at present.

The low-reaction-time Akash is designed to neutralise multiple aerial targets attacking from several directions simultaneously, with a digitally-coded command guidance system, in all weather conditions. "The fully-automated Akash has an 88% kill probability within a specified kill zone... It has even intercepted a target with a 0.02 sq metre of radar cross-section (a fighter has a 2 sqm RCS)," said an official.

DRDO, in fact, says the sleek 5.6-metre-long Akash, powered to carry a payload of 60 kg, can even take on sub-sonic cruise missiles. Akash, which DRDO claims is "96% indigenous", is not the only SAM system that the forces are going to induct to replace their obsolete Russian-origin Pechora, OSA-AK and Igla missiles.

its a nice step,the air defenses are obsolete including buk and pechora.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Mar 2011 09:43

I think you mean sa3 goa, sa6 kvadrat and sa2 pechora. we do not have Buk.

am also skeptical how good the sa13 missiles on tunguska are...they have been superseded by the sa15 missiles of 'tor' vl tracked vehicle.

imo we better get ourself both a wheeled version of Spyder (done for IAF) and a combined fleet of wheeled and tracked for the IA for close in defence of nodes and columns on the march. VL-Mica is another option. and get Maitri on track and deliverable at some point.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 19 Mar 2011 11:16

^^Singha, in fact the 2S6 Tunguska's 9M111 missiles are NATO-designated SA-19 Grison. The 2S6 Tunguska is a replacement for the ZSU-23-4 SPAAG, both of which operate as low-level AA defence for mobile Armoured or Mech. Inf. columns, which is why both are mounted on tracked high-mobility platforms themselves. The Tunguska itself is being superseded as of now by the Pantsir-S1, which has improved missiles, guns and guidance systems and can also be truck-mounted.

The 9K330 'Tor' is actually not a replacement for the Tunguska - it is a replacement for the 9K33 'Osa', in effect making it equivalent to what the Trishul would have been. Also used to cover gaps at the lower end of the Buk system's coverage - 2-10km or so. These are basically LLQRM's, and there is a bit of overlap with the 2S6, so a Russian Armoured Div would have organic platoons, each operating either of these systems respectively.

From what I've understood, the Russians seem to prefer the Pantsir as a std replacement for all LLQRM & mobile AA requirements, because it's less complex, cheaper and already has a wheeled variant. Plus, the 57E6 missile is ranged to ~20km, while the Tor's range is about 12km, with a minimum range of about 1km, a limitation the 2S6 & Pantsir overcome through their 30mm cannon thereby eliminating the need for a separate ultra-low-level SPAAG system.

I really believe the IA should be looking at upgrading the current 2S6's to Pantsirs for all Armoured and Mech. Inf. units while using Spyder (and later Maitri) LLQRM's tied in with large numbers of cheaper SPAAGs for 2nd-line units.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Mar 2011 12:33

Comparison of K-100 Novator (Awacs killer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100) vs. Brahmos Air-Launch:

Length - 6m vs. 8.4m
Dia - 40cm vs. 60cm
Weight - 748kg vs. 2500kg
Speed - Mach 3.2 vs. Mach 2.8
Range - 400km vs. 290km
Payload - 50kg vs. 300kg
Propellant - Solid vs. Ramjet

Overall, it seems that solid propellant is preferable to Ramjet. Comparison with the K series missiles also tends to support this conclusion.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 19 Mar 2011 17:59

I think the payload makes the difference... Consider payload of 300Kg for Brahmos v/s 50 Kg for K 100 Novator...

Also, Akash has range of 25-30 Km and weights over 700 kg... whereas 70km MRSAM has range of around 275kg(if i m not wrong), but Akash a payload of 60kg... dont know of MRSAM

Gurus might help

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 19 Mar 2011 18:32

nrshah wrote:I think the payload makes the difference... Consider payload of 300Kg for Brahmos v/s 50 Kg for K 100 Novator...

Also, Akash has range of 25-30 Km and weights over 700 kg... whereas 70km MRSAM has range of around 275kg(if i m not wrong), but Akash a payload of 60kg... dont know of MRSAM

Gurus might help

weight is no issue as you know that nobody carries missiles in hands but on tanks or trucks.MRSAM is few years away from operational capability and then some time to induct.

solid propellant motor is much smaller than ramjet and weighs less thats why MRSAM is lighter.but importing large number of SAM system is very very costly takes long procedure thats why akaash is best option.

even if SA-6 or pechora are upgraded russians will ask huge amount of money so its better to retire those systems.

so both samyukta and akaash do its job very well.

it would have been better that drdo had gone for foreign assistance for trishul missile as well it would have been operational by now.

John · Post by **John** » 19 Mar 2011 19:26

Pranav wrote:Comparison of K-100 Novator (Awacs killer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100) vs. Brahmos Air-Launch:

Length - 6m vs. 8.4m
Dia - 40cm vs. 60cm
Weight - 748kg vs. 2500kg
Speed - Mach 3.2 vs. Mach 2.8
Range - 400km vs. 290km
Payload - 50kg vs. 300kg
Propellant - Solid vs. Ramjet

Overall, it seems that solid propellant is preferable to Ramjet. Comparison with the K series missiles also tends to support this conclusion.

Most of Brahmos fuel is consumed in its terminal flight when it flies at a lower altitude, so those range figures cannot be compared to each other. Big advantage of liquid fueled ramjet is that missile can throttle making it harder for targets to intercept it. Big drawback is it is more expensive to maintain (Kerosene needs to drained and refueled) but by Canistering the missile that alleviates that issue. However the air launched is not canistered.

As for K-100, considering we have not heard anything about K-100 for a 2 years i think that talks to joint venture fell through?

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Mar 2011 21:38

As for K-100, considering we have not heard anything about K-100 for a 2 years i think that talks to joint venture fell through?

IIRC, a recent article posted on BR about the "Super-30" upgrades for the MKI mentioned the K-100 as one of the new thing in the Super-30 scheme...

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 20 Mar 2011 12:32

sum wrote:
As for K-100, considering we have not heard anything about K-100 for a 2 years i think that talks to joint venture fell through?
IIRC, a recent article posted on BR about the "Super-30" upgrades for the MKI mentioned the K-100 as one of the new thing in the Super-30 scheme...

sum,

the term 'super 30' was part of an article in the latest vayu magazine. it does not talk about K-100 at all. instead it talks about air launched Brahmos as part of the deep upgrade. it does mention other weapons (both russian and others) + 'phased array radar' - again not clear on AESA.

FWIW.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 20 Mar 2011 16:09

Singha wrote:I think you mean sa3 goa, sa6 kvadrat and sa2 pechora.

Sa-3 is called goa/pechora and not Sa-2. Goa is it's NATO name while pechora is it's russian classification. Sa-2 is called Guideline/Dvina similarly. AFAIK Sa-2 can be seen in IAF museum only as it has been decommisioned from service in 1991.

Cheers....

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Mar 2011 17:27

JUst when we thought everythuiing was going good for Akash

http://www.sify.com/news/cbi-arrests-th ... fhdhe.html

Chennai: The CBI has arrested three persons including two former directors of Society for Applied Microwave Electronics Engineering and Research (SAMEER), a central government undertaking, in connection with alleged "criminal irregularities" in supply of modem to India's Akash missile project.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Mar 2011 17:57

krishnan wrote:JUst when we thought everythuiing was going good for Akash

http://www.sify.com/news/cbi-arrests-th ... fhdhe.html

Chennai: The CBI has arrested three persons including two former directors of Society for Applied Microwave Electronics Engineering and Research (SAMEER), a central government undertaking, in connection with alleged "criminal irregularities" in supply of modem to India's Akash missile project.

You had me worried there for a second. If its financial irregularity then this story will just get added to the long list we've seen over the last year. For a moment I thought the modem had been sabotaged. Thank heavens that isn't the case.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Mar 2011 01:20

pragnya wrote:
the term 'super 30' was part of an article in the latest vayu magazine. it does not talk about K-100 at all. instead it talks about air launched Brahmos as part of the deep upgrade. it does mention other weapons (both russian and others) + 'phased array radar' - again not clear on AESA.

FWIW.

Thanks for clarification, was surprised K-100 name popped up again after 4 year hiatus, which is a sign of project that is good as dead.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Mar 2011 01:53

John wrote: Most of Brahmos fuel is consumed in its terminal flight when it flies at a lower altitude, so those range figures cannot be compared to each other. Big advantage of liquid fueled ramjet is that missile can throttle making it harder for targets to intercept it. Big drawback is it is more expensive to maintain (Kerosene needs to drained and refueled) but by Canistering the missile that alleviates that issue. However the air launched is not canistered.

As for K-100, considering we have not heard anything about K-100 for a 2 years i think that talks to joint venture fell through?

Russia is holding back on Brahmos air-launch ... so we may need to look for alternatives. Solid fuel might be a good alternative to avoid dependence on Russia for ramjet engines.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Mar 2011 02:38

CL20 can substantially reduce weight further. Wonder it can be a controlled so that it can fuel the flight to mach 4+.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 21 Mar 2011 03:28

Isn't CL20 an explosive?
And we are yet to perfect that technology.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Mar 2011 08:59

pragnya wrote: the term 'super 30' was part of an article in the latest vayu magazine. it does not talk about K-100 at all. instead it talks about air launched Brahmos as part of the deep upgrade. it does mention other weapons (both russian and others) + 'phased array radar' - again not clear on AESA.

FWIW.

Well, even the article i thought which mentioned "K100" only says "rumoured to be", so maybe the K-100 is indeed dead:

This first 40 aircrafts will also get, strengthening of air frame to enable them to carry near 2.5 tonne, Air launched version of Brahmos , Indian air force have already provided two Su-30MKI aircrafts in 2010 to carry out such modification to the airframe and Air launch variant is also ready only integration with airframe is left . Under “Super -30” Project, Su 30MKI will get Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA radars along with new onboard mission computers, electronic warfare systems and new Russian BVR Missiles rumored to be Novator K-100 missile also known has “AWCS Killer ” and also India’s own Astra BVR Missile.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Mar 2011 09:34

They should rather try integrating R-37M with MKI then wait for some mythical K-100 to come up.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Mar 2011 03:12

..:: India Strategic ::.. Magazine
Weapons on Offer to India
Raytheon’s Hawk XXI Air Defense Missile System

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Mar 2011 06:25

The HAWK(Homing All the Way Killer) is such an old dog its ridiculous.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 25 Mar 2011 12:39

Hi

After the Libyan crisis, looks like the SAM coverage has to be much more robust than available with us (Assuming Libya has s125 pechora).I had few doubts

What should be the technology to concentrate on to protect our airspace and moving columns?
Looks like SAM sites are going to be history since they are targeted with Air to surface weapons from 200 KMs. Is the mobile SAM (Like Akash SAM) is the alternative or we should have SAM which is spread over a large area (so that neutralizing is less possible)

Why Lasers(Instead of ground radars) are not used to guide missile, my assumption here is lasers would occupy less space than radars(which would make SAM more mobile)?

Thanks

Prabhu.G

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 25 Mar 2011 13:14

prabhug wrote:
Why Lasers(Instead of ground radars) are not used to guide missile, my assumption here is lasers would occupy less space than radars(which would make SAM more mobile)?

Well good sir, Lasers can only travel in a straight line and current laser tracking is by line of sight. Radars can track over the horizon and can continuously track a target with high accuracy, thereby allowing the missile to continuously adjust its path to intercept. It is quite easy to lase a target like a lumbering tank but it gets harder to lase fast moving agile targets. Albeit, beam riders can take out older radars, but the new AESA radars keep modulating their frequencies that the beam riders would have a hard time following.
Here is good entertaining video on a tank trying to get a laser lock on a vehicle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKfpPrRVIo

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 25 Mar 2011 15:03

Greetings Gents,

I am wondering about Kashtan and the Barak. They both seem to be beam riders, I am just wondering how the Kashtan's 9M311 compares to the Barak, as it is open source that the Barak successfully intercepted all missiles in the IN's inventory, but I could not find anything about the 9M311. Also did the Barak successfully intercept BRAHMOS? or were the tests before the induction of that missile?

Cheers

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Mar 2011 17:36

prabhug wrote:Hi

After the Libyan crisis, looks like the SAM coverage has to be much more robust than available with us (Assuming Libya has s125 pechora).I had few doubts

What should be the technology to concentrate on to protect our airspace and moving columns?
Looks like SAM sites are going to be history since they are targeted with Air to surface weapons from 200 KMs. Is the mobile SAM (Like Akash SAM) is the alternative or we should have SAM which is spread over a large area (so that neutralizing is less possible)

Why Lasers(Instead of ground radars) are not used to guide missile, my assumption here is lasers would occupy less space than radars(which would make SAM more mobile)?

drdo can upgrade the current russian SAM systems in inventory but don't know the reason why its not been done?

those pechora can be made mobile.

main reason of SAM failure is that the SAM systems is always associated with EW systems and nobody sells it latest EW systems. and imported ones are not upto mark.

if EW fails SAM system fails, NATO,israel all have EW systems and they don't sell their latest ones.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Mar 2011 04:46

BDL inks Rs. 14,000 Crore deal with Army for Akash missiles

In one of the biggest Defence production contracts, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) has signed a Rs 14,000-crore contract with the Indian Army for the production of Akash, the surface-to-air (SAM) missile developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The public sector undertaking, BDL, recently received an order for the Air Force version of Akash for over Rs 1,000 crore, the Chairman and Managing Director, Major Gen Ravi Ketarpal, said in a release from the company.

The Akash missile has a range of 25 km with a low reaction time of 15 seconds. It can shoot down aircraft, helicopters and UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) travelling at speeds of up to 700 m/sec. The weapon system is capable of engaging targets in all weather conditions.

Developed by the DRDO as part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), the missile has been a priority for the armed forces, who plan to use it for the close defence of its installations from all types of aerial attacks.

The contract is the highest value placed by the Indian Army to date, the BDL release said.

BDL is gearing up to manufacture a series of missiles that have been or are being developed by the DRDO by setting up facilities in Andhra Pradesh and other States. It has been allocated land for expansion in two places in Andhra Pradesh.

BDL is the main manufacturer of the indigenously developed missiles. With the implementation of the contracts, it expects to turn into a Navaratna Defence PSU with a turnover projected at over Rs 5,000 crore by 2015. Currently, it is a mini-ratna.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 26 Mar 2011 08:43

India developing 5,000 km-range Agni missile: Antony
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 571261.ece

“India has reached an appreciable level of competence in missile technologies, with a reach capability of 3,500 kilometres. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing Agni missile with a capacity to reach 5000 kilometres,” he said here.

The Defence Minister was addressing a conference of heads of DRDO laboratories.

Under its missile development programme, India is developing ballistic missiles with longer ranges and had recently successfully test-fired the 3,500 km-range Agni-III missile from a launch facility. The Agni-series also includes missile variants with ranges between 700 and 2,500 km.

The 5,000 km-range Agni-V is a further advancement of the existing systems and is expected to be test-fired later this year, sources said.

Other missiles developed by the DRDO are the Prithvi and its variants with ranges upto 350 km, surface-to-air Akash missile defence system with a range of 25-30 km and the short-range anti-tank NAG missile.

The Trishul air defence missile system programme was scrapped by the DRDO after it was marred by delays.

In his address, the Defence Minister asked the DRDO to speed up the development trials and induction of Interceptor Missile as part of the credible Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD).

To reduce cases of suicides and fratricides in the armed forces, Antony asked the DRDO to to undertake a detailed research program to make an assessment of stress profile and mental health of the soldiers.

“I have asked one of the life sciences laboratories of DRDO to undertake extensive psychological research to optimise stress profile and enhance mental health of soldiers. The objective is to reduce incidents of suicides and fratricides among soldiers,” he said.

The suicide and fratricide rates in the early part of the decade were high, but due to sustained efforts by the Defence Ministry, they had come down significantly in last few years, according to officials.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Mar 2011 10:23

^^^

At this rate we will have an ICBM by 2030 onlee...... Why is the Indian Government risticting its stratigic options to onlee Asia. It needs to to go beyond asia in order to have a greater voice.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 26 Mar 2011 10:34

Pratyush wrote: Why is the Indian Government risticting its stratigic options to onlee Asia. It needs to to go beyond asia in order to have a greater voice.

Wanting and needing are two different things. India doesn't need a ICBM. We NEED to have deterrence against China therefore we are going in for a 5000km missile.

Instead of an ICBM, India should think about going in for multiple maneuverable re-entry vehicles and countermeasures as the next step after this Agni series to defeat ABM system that the Pakis or the Chinese may employ. This would be more value-for-money investment because it would guarantee our response and make our nuclear deterrent more credible to our immediate threats than simply a longer range missile that will scare more nations about our intentions than actually strengthening our real defense capabilities. =

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Mar 2011 13:14

Would AESA radars associated with SAMs be less vulnerable to:
1. Jamming
2. Attacks by HARMs

TIA

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 26 Mar 2011 14:09

I understand aesa would be less vulnerable to jamming but HARM's i am ain't sure.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 26 Mar 2011 14:13

Baldev wrote:drdo can upgrade the current russian SAM systems in inventory but don't know the reason why its not been done?

those pechora can be made mobile.

main reason of SAM failure is that the SAM systems is always associated with EW systems and nobody sells it latest EW systems. and imported ones are not upto mark.

if EW fails SAM system fails, NATO,israel all have EW systems and they don't sell their latest ones.

But long standoff weapons are doing the major damage on SAM installations.Virtually we know where the systems are installed and a GPS guided weapon would do the magic

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 Mar 2011 19:15

Indian Army Orders Akash Missile System
Aviation Week

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Mar 2011 20:15

What is this about a huge order for spike missiles to be installed on Russian-built combat vehicles - http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/ ... 0&fid=1725

What is wrong with Nag?

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 26 Mar 2011 20:28

Juggi G wrote:Indian Army Orders Akash Missile System
Aviation Week

From the above article

The Akash missile systems consist of a launcher, a missile with a 25-30-km (16-19-mi.) range, control center, multifunction fire control radar and supporting ground equipment.

I have a very juvenile question

about the range being 25-30 km. Does this mean the missile is ineffective if the target has come closer than 25 km? Or is it that depending on other conditional (may be like weather, etc.) the maximum range can vary from 25 to 30 KM?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Mar 2011 20:52

Pranav wrote:What is this about a huge order for spike missiles to be installed on Russian-built combat vehicles - http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/ ... 0&fid=1725

What is wrong with Nag?

The reading suggest that the weapon in qwestion has a range of 2.5 kms. This is not strictly a NAG class weapon. This seems to be a replacement for the Milan.

This report, if true suggests a degree of failure of MPNAG.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Mar 2011 21:11

^^^Javelin is part replacement for Milan series of ATGMs.....these will replace the Konkurs and earlier generation of ATGM used on BMP-1 and BMP-2 and BRDM.