The cable in question:abhishek_sharma wrote:Some people were saying that there was no proof/evidence that MMS govt had worked on any "solution" of J&K. See here
http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=08LONDON2968
The cable in question:abhishek_sharma wrote:Some people were saying that there was no proof/evidence that MMS govt had worked on any "solution" of J&K. See here
Pakistani liberals have always taken comfort from the fundamentalists’ poor showing in elections and the tolerant, Sufi version of Islam traditionally prevalent in rural Pakistan. But polling by the Pew Research Centre suggests that Pakistanis take a hard line on religious matters these days (see chart 1). It may be that they always did, and that the elite failed to notice. It may be that urbanisation and the growing influence of hard-line Wahhabi-style Islam have widened the gap between the liberal elite and the rest. “The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,” says Salman Raja, a Lahore lawyer. “They go to Aitchison College [in Lahore]. They go abroad to university…A lot of us are asking ourselves whether this country has changed while our backs were turned.”
D.G. KHAN: At least five people were killed and more than 30 people in a blast near Sakhi Sarwar Shrine, Geo News reported on Sunday.
The blast occurred near the main gate of Shrine blast.
Led by the 56 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the U.N.’s Human Rights Council has passed a resolution against the “defamation of religions” every year since 1999. The OIC, which is represented by Pakistan at the Council, says the resolution is critical for “the defense of Islam” and to combat “Islamophobia” in the West......
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This year, to the chagrin of the OIC and in consideration of the tragic events in Pakistan, a markedly-changed version of the nonbinding resolution passed on March 24.
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Whereas previous versions of the resolution sought to protect “beliefs,” the newest seeks to protect “believers.” The three-page resolution, which resulted from discussions among diplomats from the U.S. and Pakistan (as the OIC rep), recognizes that there is “intolerance, discrimination and violence” aimed at believers of different faiths, but it omits any reference to “defamation” and denounces the advocacy of religious hatred and incitement to violence. It also calls on governments to prevent and confront such acts carried out in the name of religion.
No, they are not pure enough to live in the land of the pure. They must enhance their piety.The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,
This guy has almost summarized my ebook - with some updates.A_Gupta wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/india/a ... 10402.aspx
April 2, 2011: Pakistan's biggest problem is not the threat of attacks by Islamic terrorists, but the nationwide attitude of victimization by foreigners. Everything, even the widespread corruption, is blamed on some foreign conspiracy to bring Pakistan down. Every country has some of these myths, but some more than others. In Pakistan, the conspiracies are numerous and crippling.
All this might be expected in Somalia or Yemen, but not in a country of great sophistication which boasts an elite educated at Oxbridge and the Ivy League, which produces brilliant novelists, artists and scientists, and is armed with nuclear weapons.
Must be the hand of RAW/Mossad. Muslims don't kill Muslimsshravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine
DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.
Shivji, Why is that hard to understand. I think they are right when they say "Muslims don't kill Muslim's" cuz the one who is killed is always less pious and less Islamic than the killer and hence wah-ji-bull-cuddle.shiv wrote:Must be the hand of RAW/Mossad. Muslims don't kill Muslimsshravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine
DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.
Absolutely, The words used by Islamic scholars and apologists are invariably innuendo and rhetoric. It seems to me that this entire Islamic education thing places greater thrust on rhetoric and fiery oration rather than truth. Facts don't matter as long as the other guy i convinced by your words. That is how you find yourself listening to impassioned lame excuse makers like Zaid Hamid spouting pigswill in the name of Islam.VikasRaina wrote:
Shivji, Why is that hard to understand. I think they are right when they say "Muslims don't kill Muslim's" cuz the one who is killed is always less pious and less Islamic than the killer and hence wah-ji-bull-cuddle.
What manner of more pure and pious Mohammadden exterminating less pure and pious Mohammadden in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is this?shravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine
DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.
The Emir of asses, Ayass Amir wrote 2 days agoarun wrote: The level of Mohammadden religion inspired violence pitting one group of Mohammddens against another is shockingly high for a country self-claimed to have been formed as a safe-haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian sub-continent .
Meanwhile the death toll in this particular demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 36:
36 KILLED In Sakhi Sarwar Shrine In 3 CONSECUTIVE blast , Two Suicide Attackers Are Arrested
Almost as a response to that is this dim glow of a llightbulb of realizationIf the religious parties still don’t make much of an electoral impact we have to thank the good sense of the Pakistani people for that.
In fact I would say that the elites deluded themselves into believing that they were or so modern and oh so liberal that not only did they sit tight when Hindus and Sikhs were serially and virtually eliminated from Pakistan, but the brlithering idiots also thought their elections were free and fair and actually represented the will of Pakis.Pakistani liberals have always taken comfort from the fundamentalists’ poor showing in elections and the tolerant, Sufi version of Islam traditionally prevalent in rural Pakistan. But polling by the Pew Research Centre suggests that Pakistanis take a hard line on religious matters these days (see chart 1). It may be that they always did, and that the elite failed to notice. It may be that urbanisation and the growing influence of hard-line Wahhabi-style Islam have widened the gap between the liberal elite and the rest. “The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,” says Salman Raja, a Lahore lawyer. “They go to Aitchison College [in Lahore]. They go abroad to university…A lot of us are asking ourselves whether this country has changed while our backs were turned.”
True & accurate statement, all of it. In all of their persistent and focused efforts to attach themselves to Indian success stories, they still talk about a border less Kashmir, peoples right to self determination and they absolutely believe in it. Sadly, I am talking about the RAPE here who should know better so what to say of the hoi polloi?In general, Pakis having realized that Pakistan is going down a bottomless pit, want to be part of the Indian success story. Be it IPL, movies, economy, education. Hence this "South Asia" nonsense. But of course they want India to hand over Kashmir to them.
+1JE Menon wrote:>>the elites deluded themselves
Doc, they may not have deluded themselves. IMHO they knew exactly what was happening and what the issues were all along. The only thing was that they were milking it to their advanage, the best of both worlds as it were: totally in sync with the Western elite or sub-elites (more here actually) because of their preference for Western dress (especially the men) and Americanised accents (both men and women) and a thoroughly western education (both British and American). They blended in easily in Washington and London. Back home though, all they had to do was change into shalwars and they would simply segue easily into the role of feudal lords and ladies, served on by tens of servants and sundry hangers on. These slimy serpents knew exactly what was happening because they were making it happen, and they were lying to extend their sources of wealth and conveniences.
And there's an additional point, when their Western guests came over to Pakistan they were uber impressed by the fact that their English speaking, liberal lite hosts (only lite because when it came to their daughters or wives, that's where the free-thinking approach ended) gave them the whole "Raj" experience - with servants waiting on them, giving the feeling of "colonial sahibs and memsahibs".
There's another aspect to it. When these westerners (Americans in particular, the Brits are more plugged in) interacted with these Pak bureaucrats and generals, thoroughly Westernised in appearance and social etiquette, it did not matter what rubbish they talked - these fools at foggy bottom were always ready to believe they were more valuable partners and more dependable lackeys than any chap turning up there with a Nehru jacket and a turban or a mundu-veshti and an overcoat to cover up in the cold (no matter how sane and rational his chatter was) - plus we never were prepared to be their lackeys. There was that essential dissonance then, and it is still there now to some extent, but the mask is being stripped away layer by layer - especially because now there is much greater people to people interaction between Americans and Indians.
A few hours later, in the Kashmiri capital of Jammu. Puppet Premier Bakhshi Ghulam Mohammed formally proclaimed adoption of the constitution joining Kashmir to India—and in the process, gave the clearest statement yet of Jawa harlal Nehru's attitude toward the U.N.: "We are not bound by resolutions which are against our country and our interest."
This is a good reading of the history. The first impression which is still in US elite memory of Independent India is JLN and others and about their lecturing of anti imperialism. Only Nixon had read properly about Indian struggle and he had visited India and talked to independence leaders such as Rajaji.Cosmo_R wrote:
The real difference IMHO, was the attitude. Ayub wanted masters not friends but would accept either role if the PA got arms. JLN, VLP (she was the Indian rep to UN and later Amb to DC) and VKKM on the other hand were:
1. Openly dismissive of the uncouth/uncultured Americans—subconsciously aping the Brits attitude. This took the form of giggling at American pronunciations of English words
2. Carrying a chip on their shoulders about colonialism and losing no opportunity to lecture
3. Seen to be closet commies by Dulles (both of them)—reinforced by a national day of mourning in India when Stalin died (I got the day off from school I remember)
4. Perceived to be delusional given that JLN passed over the UNSC seat in favor of China and wanted to abolish the Indian Army.
5. Viewed to be implementing a 'socialist economy' forgetting that JLN was a Fabian socialist under the spell of one Nicholas Kaldor
etc.
If you go back and sift through the history of the relationship, I think you'll agree that these elements played a large role in shaping US policy towards India. It wasn't appearances it was silly baiting—the precursor of unrealistic 'strategic defiance'. FWIW, I heard much of this from my Father who was part of many of the delegations.
Anecdotally, VKKM was famous for one more (in addition to his 7 hour UN speech) thing: At formal dinners he would eat his rice/idli whatever and then minutes later his head would hit the table. He would regularly zonk out because the rice had a soporific effect. Perhaps Dr. Shiv might enlighten us on why this was the case. Anyway, it just added to his aura of weirdness.
????????The town of Sakhi Sarwar was renamed after its saint while previously it was known as Nigaha or Moqam, a sacred place for Hindus. According to the Hindu mythology, god Shiva was born in Moqam and spent his childhood here.
Will she go with India? How much do you think it'll cost? Other than Kashmir, that is.And she, naturally, will go for the highest bidder at any given time.
JEM is, of course referring to the "Little Prince" effect - something that I suspected but was unsure of believing until I read exactly the same thing in a book called the "Little Prince" by one Antoine de Saint Exupery. It's a very small, great book and the Little Prince effect has been mentioned on BRF before:JE Menon wrote:
Boss, I never said they were not smartly dressed... but differently dressed. For me, a woman in a sari and a bindi (VLP) is smartly dressed as it is for you, or a man in a sherwani (Nehru - almost always after independence), or a bureaucrat in a "Nehru" jacket (VKK Menon - though he wore suits too IIRC)... It is the way they appeared to Americans. These guys used to put their aliens (I mean the hollywood UFO version) in Nehru jackets at one time . As for Sherwani and Sari, forget it - they dissonance was too strong.
The Turkish Astronomer - The first human to discover the prince’s home, Asteroid B-612. When the Turkish astronomer first presents his discovery, no one believes him on account of his Turkish costume. Years later, he makes the same presentation wearing Western clothes, and his discovery is well received.
Thanks Shivji for this link. Hope to read that book one day. We see that effect a lot in our country, don't we?shiv wrote:JEM is, of course referring to the "Little Prince" effect - something that I suspected but was unsure of believing until I read exactly the same thing in a book called the "Little Prince" by one Antoine de Saint Exupery. It's a very small, great book and the Little Prince effect has been mentioned on BRF before:JE Menon wrote:
Boss, I never said they were not smartly dressed... but differently dressed. For me, a woman in a sari and a bindi (VLP) is smartly dressed as it is for you, or a man in a sherwani (Nehru - almost always after independence), or a bureaucrat in a "Nehru" jacket (VKK Menon - though he wore suits too IIRC)... It is the way they appeared to Americans. These guys used to put their aliens (I mean the hollywood UFO version) in Nehru jackets at one time . As for Sherwani and Sari, forget it - they dissonance was too strong.
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/littlepri ... cters.htmlThe Turkish Astronomer - The first human to discover the prince’s home, Asteroid B-612. When the Turkish astronomer first presents his discovery, no one believes him on account of his Turkish costume. Years later, he makes the same presentation wearing Western clothes, and his discovery is well received.
If not a one-time payment then maybe a creation of a dependency by buying and selling from/to them on very favourable terms initially. This is something that the Pak mind is already afraid of. If most of Pak trade is with India and a lot of their economy and jobs depend upon India thenThere's no way of assuring a one-time payment
I think peace-overtures by the leaders of India whether they're inspired by the goodness of their hearts or by realpolitik is a very good thing for India. It keeps Pakistanis from joining together. The only time the Pakistanis unite is when they have a reason to hate India. By not thinking of India they spend their time doing what comes to them naturally, the reports of which we see everyday.But so far we don't seem to be doing too badly
For a country that likes to wear its beliefs on its sleeve, and for whom it is an article of faith that nobody can predict the future, the astrologers, tarot card readers, palmists, numerologists, even parrots, were all trotted out on television unabashedly. Nobody gave any fatwas against this practice. All of them, without fail, predicted a win for Pakistan. We should now make a mental note of this and stop indulging in this habit for the future. The idea that there will be divine intervention on our behalf, somehow, because we will beseech the Almighty so much, because we are after all the chosen ones, should be countered with reality too. You have to be disciplined and focused to win and secondly, unanswered prayers have nothing to do with ongoing social and political issues like the release of Davis etc. There is just so much that Allah can do when four catches against Tendulkar are dropped. Besides, contrary to our beliefs, we do not have exclusive rights on Him.
I thought only Hindus were superstitious.For a country that likes to wear its beliefs on its sleeve, and for whom it is an article of faith that nobody can predict the future, the astrologers, tarot card readers, palmists, numerologists, even parrots, were all trotted out on television unabashedly.
There is one thing about this that doesn't make sense: Isn't the US sitting in Afghanistan with a large number of military, intelligence and civilian assets? So, why do they need to inform the Indians, who in turn have to alert Afghans to take action when they have actionable intelligence? Why this round about way of dealing with real threats?menon s wrote:US tip-off helps foil attack on India Kabul mission, 3 held
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-ti ... ld/770036/Persistence of Dr.Singh? Sigh!Five days before the India-Pakistan Home Secretary dialogue on terror, New Delhi had alerted Islamabad and Kabul to an alleged Lashkar-e-Toiba plot to target its Ambassador Gautam Mukhopadhyaya and the Indian mission in the Afghan capital.
Subsequent intervention by Afghan authorities led to arrest of what sources call three potential suicide bombers and the seizure of a truckload of explosives in the Wardak province on March 23.
On March 22, US intelligence agencies are said to have passed on specific information through security channels to India’s Defence Intelligence Agency in Delhi about an alleged Lashkar plot, that included some officials of the ISI, to use suicide bombers against the targets on Pakistan’s National Day on March 23.
Security in Kabul is handled by the Afghan National Army and the local police.Naidu wrote: There is one thing about this that doesn't make sense:
Anujan wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/I-was-110 ... 80098.aspx
I was 110% confident that Sachin was out, says Ajmal
"To get a chance to bow down to Allah on Indian soil was a big moment for me," he added.
Captain of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan‘s cricket team, Shahid Afridi reportedly has much to say about India.arun wrote:Hindustan Times interview of Gautam Gambhir who displays a sound understanding of the malign nature of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Gautam Gambhir is an individual who is no Wagah Kandle Kisser . He wanted to dedicate the win against the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and thereafter the win in the final to the victims of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan fomented act of Islamic Terrorism at Mumbai on 26/11 which killed some 160 plus Indians.
Excerpt:
Read it All:And those 100 million people would be desperate for you to win.
We are aware and will give our best. And if we win the final, for me, it'll be dedicated to the people who lost their lives in the 26/11 massacre. To my mind, a win against Pakistan and a win in the final and that too in Mumbai should be dedicated to those victims.
Do you think that will soothe their pain?
I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped. Once on a trip to Jammu, I met some army men. They told me whatever we do, whoever we play; we should never lose to Pakistan. One of them was posted at the Indo-Pak border and was so emotional that he suggested that I should have a tattoo on my body saying, "I will never lose to Pakistan".
I play for India, I play for people of my country