India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Apr 2011 21:58

^^ Only problem i forsee with the Europeans making it is that MoF will as usual put a spanner and start pointing at the costs and need for re-bid/re-quote etc since the Frenchies wont come cheap...

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 27 Apr 2011 22:04

Guys, I know this sounds stupid, but go to youtube and do a search for "future dogfights" featuring the raptor. In that the "enemy air force" approaching a flight of raptors is made up of SU30 MKI and Dassault Rafael!!!!- India is the ONLY country that flies the MKI (yes, it said MKI and not just SU-30)- so did the producers of that episode have a premonition about 4 years back!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Apr 2011 22:09

putnanja wrote:The 10 C-17s for $4.1 billion + another 7 in options should keep the US happy. Any co-incidence that the C17 order was announced a few days before the MRCA downselect? Given that, I still wouldn't dismiss the US from coming back into the MRCA game

Recall BO's gratitous mention of India in an unrelated context of healthcare reform last week? I realized the US a/c are out of running.

The transport a/c should do for now.

The gratitious remarks make it difficult to be back in game.

As I said before a good AESA is needed for now. And the plane that has it will be a good choice.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Apr 2011 22:11

Bravo! One step forward and hopefully no two steps backward.

It was clear to me that when St. Antony refused to meet at the pearly Gates, the Unkils were in trouble!

Shivji, on HT a few moments, back mentioned that the other vendors would be given details of why they lost? Having worked as a salesman for Unkil MNC’s, I doubt that very much. All vendors of sensitive equipment exchange a Non-Disclosure Agreement with the purchaser! Which bind both from non-disclosure of the details of their offering to any third parties.

No vendor would have met the 643 parameters entirely to the IAF/MoD satisfaction. But each vendor would have had discussions and maybe also included guarantees of improved performance, ToT etc. But there would be weightage and the total of the points earned would have figured in the equation. Maybe a complex equation.

There will be attempts to derail the process, but I am sure there will be a Plan B. More SU-30MKIs?

Personally I opt for the Rafale, but would have been really happy to see an Indian MRCA.

The caviar and champagne can wait till the contract is in and the first MRCA delivered.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Apr 2011 22:18

^^ Only problem i forsee with the Europeans making it is that MoF will as usual put a spanner and start pointing at the costs and need for re-bid/re-quote etc since the Frenchies wont come cheap...

Unless some other derailing takes place it will have to be the cheaper of the two!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Apr 2011 22:24

Err I am not so sure if the over priced gold plated (and then removed) C 17s are going to make it in as well.

Just call it a hunch.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Apr 2011 22:43

ranjithnath wrote:seems like most of BR is supporting katrina now .a stark contrast to what we had when MRCA had started.reports on EF poor A2G and libyan strikes have helped a lot.

Most are happy its close to a decision!

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Apr 2011 22:52

I am happy this one is not going to be dragged on like Advanced Jet trainer. We needed these planes yesterday.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 27 Apr 2011 22:54

Eurofighter versus Rafale in India's $10.4-billion combat jet tender
http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=235218

Eurofighter, Rafale make Indian MMRCA shortlist?
http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?id=5637

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Apr 2011 23:01

wiki says prior to gripen test in leh, 4 of the 5 contending a/cs failed engine restart test at leh. now, comes the question between these two. which one?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Apr 2011 23:22

SaiK wrote:wiki says prior to gripen test in leh, 4 of the 5 contending a/cs failed engine restart test at leh. now, comes the question between these two. which one?

This doesn't seem like a problem that is too difficult to overcome. It is not about thrust either. As an (somewhat lame) example, my new car has a 1.3litre engine but had problems starting in winter, while my neighbour's old maruti with 800cc engine had no problem. Slight tuning later the problem went away.

Anway, if the down-select is indeed as reported (EF+Rafale), I think now is not the time to discuss the Leh test but to celebrate IAF's independent and professional decision. They didn't get swayed by the US pressure or the continuous stream of lifafa stories in media or concerted attempts by some to get Rafale ejected (atleast twice).

naird · Post by **naird** » 27 Apr 2011 23:41

Official confirmation from SAAB

http://www.saabgroup.com/About-Saab/New ... programme/

manum · Post by **manum** » 27 Apr 2011 23:49

Ahh, I just saw the news...WOW
We were so right altogether...it was collective hunch and demand isn't it, Its's building up for a great party...

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 27 Apr 2011 23:52

The deal with Snecma for the Kaveri engine and the IN's preference for a CATOBAR in IAC 2 and IAC 3 will help Rafale get in the driver's seat.

Witness the AJT Hawk deal where the navy is now going for the same trainers as the IAF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Apr 2011 23:55

JTull, even if they split now, it matters less ..as I am along with others already happy as the brutal years are over.

Will revert if necessary later on the 800 cc toy at an appropriate time

.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 Apr 2011 00:18

New Delhi: The Defence Ministry has shortlisted Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale from among six competitors participating in the $10.5-billion tender to provide the Indian Air Force with Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), say sources.

The Dassault and the Eurofighter, according to sources, are the only participants asked to extend the validity of their commercial bids and have been called to the Defence Ministry on Thursday, the sources add.

Sources also say that the other competitors - Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed-Martin's F-16, UAC's MiG-35 and Saab's Gripen - haven't received a message or a letter.

The MMRCA deal is meant to provide the Indian Air Force with approximately 126 new state-of-the-art fighter aircraft.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/govt- ... -101947?cp

Hate to ask but what if Boeing and LM did not have to extend their commercial bids...? This saga may not be over so fast.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 00:22

Rakesh wrote:
ranjithnath wrote:any info if the uprated M88 will be on offer???
If Katrina is indeed selected, then we will have to take the current M88 engine on offer. The M88-4 turbofan can be added on later as a block upgrade. We may not be able to wait till the M88-4 gets ready for service. ...

...

For that matter, if Rafale is selected, Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid could be a suitable upgrade option down the road. It will help standardize engines between the AMCA (200+ aircrafts) and MMRCA (~200 aircrafts). Total potential order for this Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid engine could be in the 800+ units ... if IAF goes down this path.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Apr 2011 00:24

Rafale, if selected, may also be purchased by IN for its future carriers.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 28 Apr 2011 00:46

Cosmo_R wrote:
Hate to ask but what if Boeing and LM did not have to extend their commercial bids...? This saga may not be over so fast.

My thoughts exactly.

But even if they are out, i guess the some of the reasons that might prevent any shady stalling tactics by the losers could be:

Mig 35: Russia has a lot with FGFA etc and i think they had given up on MMRCA long ago.

Gripen: no political clout to put pressure, plus a legal route may lead to something like what happened to Selex.

F-18: I see the earlier C17 price concerns as a means to show US that we are now doing a favor by buying it, so they should be happy with what they get. Plus there was also the extra P8 order.

F-16: Not much that i can think of apart from destroying any chances of future F35 sale to IN if they go legal route.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 00:53

Given that the selection is going to be between EF and Rafale, we can assume these PGM/AAMs:

Either one,
* Air-launched Stand-off ASM -> Storm Shadow/Scalp
* LR AAM -> Meteor

If Rafale,
* SR/MR AAM -> MICA
* PGM -> AASM
* AShM -> EXOCET AM39

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Apr 2011 00:55

Sorry - Rafale will NOT be selected.

India will end up with Typhoon. India may have a longer term strategy and vision. Yankees are out one more time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 00:55

srai wrote:For that matter, if Rafale is selected, Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid could be a suitable upgrade option down the road. It will help standardize engines between the AMCA (200+ aircrafts) and MMRCA (~200 aircrafts). Total potential order for this Kaveri-M88 ECO hybrid engine could be in the 800+ units ... if IAF goes down this path.

http://www.snecma.com/IMG/files/m882_an ... ile_fr.pdf

Srai: The M88-ECO can do 20,000+ lbs of thrust in A/B mode. Now that is nice. 800 turbofans is the bare minimum they would need for your above scenario. Let's hope they do.

srai wrote:Air-launched Stand-off ASM -> Storm Shadow/Scalp

That is one ridiculously expensive stand-off missile. Highly capable, but not sure if we can afford it...even in the single digits!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 01:00

Muppalla wrote:Sorry - Rafale will NOT be selected.
India will end up with Typhoon. India may have a longer term strategy and vision. Yankees are out one more time.

If they are looking to standardize the same aircraft for the Vayu Sena and the Nau Sena, then Katrina would be the obvious choice. Both variants are in active service with the Armée de l'Air and the Marine Nationale and have actual combat experience, unlike Shatru which has only recently validated her precision strike capability.

A naval version of Shatru does not exist either and has yet to be developed and that means money, which will have to be borne by India. Is that really needed, when one is already there?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Apr 2011 01:01

So can someone do a matrix of these two a/c?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Apr 2011 01:01

Glad to know that Americans have been knocked out.
Another record for fastest growing thread in sight.

AoA onlee

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Apr 2011 01:08

Rakesh wrote:
Muppalla wrote:Sorry - Rafale will NOT be selected.
India will end up with Typhoon. India may have a longer term strategy and vision. Yankees are out one more time.
If they are looking to standardize the same aircraft for the Vayu Sena and the Nau Sena, then Katrina would be the obvious choice. Both variants are in active service with the French Armed Forces and have combat experience, unlike Shatru which has only recently validated her precision strike capability. A naval version of Shatru does not exist either and has yet to be developed and that means money, which will have to be borne by India.

The strategy may not be purely technical and monetery. Moneywise India will spend a lot even if there is waste. The strategy may be to build and fund a new relation and create in the long run a private space in geopolitics. May be some sort of vision. Let us see. I am sure if there is a huge technical gap between the two and is in favor of Katrina, they will go with her. But if the gaps not too much and even if it is not glamorous they will go with Typhoon. We are SDRE onlee.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 01:11

Muppalla wrote:We are SDRE onlee.

hehehe....no argument there!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 01:14

ranjithnath wrote:METEOR !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor

IAF to procure long-range missiles to enhance striking range
http://www.hindustantimes.com/IAF-to-pr ... 89983.aspx

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 28 Apr 2011 01:29

JTull wrote: Anyway, if the down-select is indeed as reported (EF+Rafale), I think now is not the time to discuss the Leh test but to celebrate IAF's independent and professional decision. They didn't get swayed by the US pressure or the continuous stream of lifafa stories in media or concerted attempts by some to get Rafale ejected (atleast twice).

Touche. Could'nt have said it better myself! However, dont expect back-door pressure from unkil or the lifafa journalism to end anytime soon.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 28 Apr 2011 01:46

ramana wrote:So can someone do a matrix of these two a/c?

I am preparing a detailed matrix comparing the Rafale and Eurofighter, mostly pulling in data from Wikipedia.

I'll post a pic of it here when it's ready. RK

saip · Post by **saip** » 28 Apr 2011 01:47

When it comes to cost they lead the pack -- Typhoon being the costiliest. In for a period of tough negotiations.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2011 02:14

Muppalla wrote:Sorry - Rafale will NOT be selected.
India will end up with Typhoon. India may have a longer term strategy and vision. Yankees are out one more time.

hey not that long...that they start converting them to UAV's run on nuclear fuel...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Apr 2011 02:23

Tribune reports

Next fighter plane from Europe

IAF next gen warplane will be from Europe
Eurofighter, French Dassault shortlisted for MMRCA deal
Ajay Banerjee/TNS

New Delhi, April 27
In what is a defining move in the much-talked about $ 10.4-billion deal for the Indian Air Force to buy 126 fighter jets, the Ministry of Defence today effectively shortlisted two European companies.

The ministry today asked the two companies to extend the validity of their commercial bids that are slated to expire tomorrow. The other four contenders in the race have not been asked to extend the validity of their bids indicating that two European companies will form the shortlist for the purchase. “It is shortlisting as only two companies have been invited,” a source said.

A total of the six vendors were competing in the tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Sources said the European consortium’s Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Dassault’s Rafale have been invited extend the commercial bids.

The Tribune was the first to report in these columns on January 11, 2011, saying Eurofighter and Rafale were the top two contenders in the evaluation trails of the IAF.

The other aircraft in the fray - the US Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, US Lockheed Martin Corporation’s F-16, Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB’s Gripen - did not come at the top of the technical evaluation. The warplanes were checked and test flown to quantify 643 parameters in the cold climate of Leh and deserts of Jaisalmer. Weapon testing was carried out in the countries of the manufacturers.

Politically, the move is significant. The European consortium comprises Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy. So far, the European nations had been left out of the “slice” of the multi-billion dollar Indian Defence Budget. The IAF is buying transport planes like the C-130-J and the C-17 in bulk from Lockheed Martin and Boeing, respectively. Both are US companies. Boeing will be supplying the long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft for the Navy while the IAF is buying its choppers, the MI-17-V, from the Russians. Besides, the Navy is getting a couple of warships built in Russia. Also, the two nations have signed contract to co-develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft for an estimated $30 billion.

Italian shipmaker Fincantieri is producing two fleet tankers while French major DCNS is making submarines. The MoD and the IAF also expect that today's move could raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall PV Naik had indicated that by the end of April the shortlisting will be done.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Apr 2011 02:28

Adding on to Rakesh-saar's post, dont forget the comedy part of the media rumors- the paki pilot who claimed to have down three Typhoons with a prayer and a yo-yo. Am waiting for some drone assigned to J20 project to claim, "Raphale-amma doesnt have solid bum-popping hips like J20"

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Apr 2011 02:32

ramana wrote:Tribune reports

Next fighter plane from Europe

IAF next gen warplane will be from Europe
........
Politically, the move is significant. The European consortium comprises Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy. So far, the European nations had been left out of the “slice” of the multi-billion dollar Indian Defence Budget. The IAF is buying transport planes like the C-130-J and the C-17 in bulk from Lockheed Martin and Boeing, respectively. Both are US companies. Boeing will be supplying the long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft for the Navy while the IAF is buying its choppers, the MI-17-V, from the Russians. Besides, the Navy is getting a couple of warships built in Russia. Also, the two nations have signed contract to co-develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft for an estimated $30 billion.

Italian shipmaker Fincantieri is producing two fleet tankers while French major DCNS is making submarines. The MoD and the IAF also expect that today's move could raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall PV Naik had indicated that by the end of April the shortlisting will be done.

ramana-saar, OT, but I feel getting these out-of-luck master swordsmiths to forge your swords is better than paying his village headman for influence. People hate alms, especially skilled ones, who feel they can do an honest day's work...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Apr 2011 02:53

I think this attribution that we can't p!ss anyone off is what taking the ddm and aam world apart! /OT.

who cares what losers think? what is important for IAF, is what should be taken care off. now, everyone is thinking of the pie chart share here,,, very very indic indeed, and this exactly needs to be erased. It is OT, but it gets in everywhere.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 03:12

Rakesh wrote:...

srai wrote:Air-launched Stand-off ASM -> Storm Shadow/Scalp
That is one ridiculously expensive stand-off missile. Highly capable, but not sure if we can afford it...even in the single digits!

The cost for Scalp is around €800,000 per unit.

This meets the recent IAF requirements for standoff long-range missiles (SOLR(L)).

IAF Wants Long-Range Standoff Strike Missile

The Indian Air Force's Directorate of Operations (Offensive) has formally called for information from global vendors to support the potential acquisition of lightweight all weather "standoff long-range missiles" for its fighter aircraft, with mid course guidance. The RFI does not specify range or any other parameters, though it indicates the likelihood of series modification for the integration of the missile once selected.

In a separate effort, the IAF has asked for proposals from infrastructure developers to build an integrated air to ground weapons range on 7,000 acres of land. This will be one of India's largest strike ranges when done.

http://www.tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.a ... no=1&td=TD

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 03:43

L1 lowest bidder stipulation will favor the Rafale over the EF.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Apr 2011 03:45

That would indeed be sweet!

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 28 Apr 2011 03:50

either it is going to be a split order or it is going to be rafale