India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 28 Apr 2011 09:16

@the prices being quoted, we can barely afford the original 126 , let alone 200 unless there is a IN buy of 60 rafale later for IAC2 and IAC3 airwings.

If the French are sensible, they should offer 200 planes for the cost of 126, being fully aware of the fact that hardly anybody has purchased the a/c outside France. With this deal, may be India would become the largest operator of this plane.

But, there is also a chance that the French will fire on their foot in front of the Indian babus, by allowing greed to prevail over pragmatism.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 09:16

ok..just a question of semantics. I count the reserve a/c kept under wraps in a separate pool.

have to say during entire circus the Rafale team has been the quietest...hardly any visibility...no lifafa articles...giving the feeling they were not interested and had given up vs unkils high decibel posturing and pressurizing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 09:25

Singha wrote:sir 200 planes is 13.5 squadrons

126 is 8 squadrons + 6 reserve

15 each.

...

Typical IAF squadron strength is 18 aircrafts, consisting of 16 single-seater plus 2 two-seaters. So 126 is 7 squadrons (@18 aircraft per squadron).

When you add up the ~60 options, that's another 3 more squadrons. So the total (126+60 options) comes to 10 squadrons (plus 6 in deep reserve).

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 28 Apr 2011 09:56

I thought GOI will shortlist Rakhi (F-18 E/F), but groom is more suspicious about Rakhi's fickleness and fidelity. Probably my assumption, what went against Uncles Teens are:
- The new cold war has not yet started and Uncle still has not left Chinty, so GOI thought it will be unwise to select teens fearing that it will be antagonizing and making China paranoid about US-India bonhomie, while US still in dilemma whether to get ride of China or not.
- US assistance of Paki and its future demand of level playing field had weighed in GOI mind.
- Selecting teens means making furious Bear, so better avoid.

Adder later. Probably GOI will select Rafale. The advantages are:
- Already Snecma has been roped in Kaveri and its promise to fly Rafale with Kaveri-Snecma engine.
- India is comfortable and familiar of French avionics, so seem less integration.
- Bleeding hearts of mainland Europe (sans France) for every fifth columnist of India (maoists, Islamic terrorists, etc.)
- The tactics adopted by Typhoon probably had been passed by EF consortium to KSA, from KSA to Pakis.
- The news emanating from Typhoon spare problems and diversified production base might became nightmare to IAF.
- Finally, already the Rafale is multirole.

Probably, IAF should get guarantees that future Rafale should not be sold to China and any gulf nation.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 28 Apr 2011 10:10

My biggest concern with Rafale is the French reputation for greed. We have seen that consistently in the negotiations for Mirage upgrade, which has been delayed for many years now thanks to their ridiculous pricing. So am a little surprised at this gung-ho reaction on Rafale from everyone in BRF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 10:20

the ideal MRCA contender is unobtainium:
- A2G of rafale
- A2A of typhoon
- capex , opex and size of gripenNG
- avionics, weapons choice and radar of F18
- bubble canopy of F-16

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Apr 2011 10:21

Singha,

some more cons with going with Rafale:

Possible JV between DRDO-Thales for Sensors:
-AESA Radar including GaN T/R
-AESA Electronic Attack Jammer
-New LW/MW IIR based OSF/IRST technology
-Next generation comprehensive EW suite [Will give boost to our own mayawi project]

And we are already cooperating with Scnema on Kaveri. These JVs [with possible exception of Kaveri] should be serious enough that both FrAF and IAF are taken on board to buy these equipments for their Rafale.

All these four items can be common between LCA MK2, AMCA and Rafale. From point of view of maintenance this will be awesome. Also, this is one good way to make some substantial effort to prevent future sale of Rafale to those adverse to India since we will have a stake and hence a say in all the above items.

We will have MKI with its latest update and PAK-FA for A-A future battles. That my opinion is EF's major drawback other than the fact that we have to deal with 4 different govts.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 Apr 2011 10:39

Rakesh..... why did you call the Rafale .... Katrina ?
Anway good news if this is offical and true.

F-18 was too heavy and would have competed with Su-30s and there not be cost effective.
F-16 .... Pakis had it
Gripen would have killed Tejas
and Mig-35 was just a 29 and we already have it with the upgrade.

Now out of Typhoon and Rafale. I think we need to have a thread that now bashes every aspect of Typhoon and Rafale and we again make an informative decision.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 Apr 2011 10:44

Guys a quick question in the context of MRCA and also since you are throwing numbers around here

What is the official number of aircraft in an IAF squadron ... 16 ?
What is the official number of aircraft in an Indian Naval squadron ... 12 ?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Apr 2011 10:47

I am not sure if they can,
but the plane that can carry 3 Brahmos, will have very very big advantage.

That will be a add great capability to IAF.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Apr 2011 10:51

I hope by tomm or max by end of month we will have official confirmation of the shortlisted fighters. I can't wait for 1st May 2011, by then everything will be settled.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 28 Apr 2011 10:57

If rafale than french will do this ????

1.Will french give us the choice of using Russian+India+Israel weapons
2.Still lot of sensors or podded so can we have Israel pods
3.Engine seems to be very ordinary .Looks like kaveri generates more power and have better specs than it.will airframe accepts a better engine and will we get it.

Cheers

Prabhu.G

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Apr 2011 11:39

LM response to exclusion..

"The US Government has informed Lockheed Martin that they have received a letter from the Indian MOD concerning the MMRCA competition. We understand that the US Government is working on a response to the letter from the Indian government. Lockheed Martin remains committed to our relationship with the Indian Air Force, Ministry of Defense and the other Services. Lockheed Martin has several world-class products offering the most advanced and reliable technology we believe is suitable for India's security needs."

Lockheed has not yet commented to the Star-Telegram. A Boeing spokesman said he had not heard anything official from his corporate ranks. But Washington defense analyst Loren Thompson, who has many good sources in the world of defense contractors, said he has heard similar but unofficial reports. "My understanding is the F-16 and F/A-18 have both been disqualified by India," Thompson said. "It may just be a negotiating tactic. They've (India) done stuff like this before."

Decision likely to anger US..

The government's decision is likely to have already made the Americans furious. The defence ministry's decision to dispense with the American warplanes would not be easy to swallow. US campaign teams are likely to up the pressure in every way possible.

Commenting on the development, retired Air Marshal P.S. Ahluwalia said that no one could doubt the professionalism of the IAF. He stressed there was no question of any political pressure on the forces and if the IAF has selected any aircraft then it has to be purely on merit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 12:14

one must say we have a long relationship with french industry like sagem , sextant, thales, thomson, mbda not just for our m2k and tejas program but stuff like upgrades of various a/c like jaguar/mig27/mig21-bison and even the indian army.

the US is stepping on thin ice here if they decide to act rough and try to browbeat us. we can punish them on the C17 front upfront by retendering now that IL-476 production is there. likewise the Mi26T having restarted, negates their chinook to a bantamweight toy. IA/AI could easily go for airbus exclusively in their next deal. the apache heli could be sidelined for 22 unit deal in favour of a indo-french or indo-israeli effort to make a MKI out of the Mi28N.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 12:28

prabhug wrote:If rafale than french will do this ????

1.Will french give us the choice of using Russian+India+Israel weapons
2.Still lot of sensors or podded so can we have Israel pods

To answer you question, just look at the IAF's Mirage-2000 fleet. It's the only plane (and Jaguar) that has been integrated with a wide range of munitions, such as the Israeli Litening Pod, American Paveway-II LGB, Israeli Spice ASM, and rumors of its integration (or trial) with Russian R-73/77, etc. The same can't be said about the Russian hardware (although MKI is integrated with Litening Pod it seems).

prabhug wrote: 3.Engine seems to be very ordinary .Looks like kaveri generates more power and have better specs than it.will airframe accepts a better engine and will we get it.

You seem to just look at the power only. The power output for M-88 was designed for the Rafale as per its specification. But beyond this, an engine is not just about power only ... there are other merits that also has to be factored in such as fuel-consumption ratio, durability of parts (meantime-between-failures), ease of maintenance (automated checks, LRU) etc. Besides according to KH interview in 1998 or so, in his words the original Kaveri was aspiring to reach M-88 level of technology. It is no surprise M-88ECO core module was selected for the Kaveri hybrid.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2011 12:33

US certainly wont take the fact lightly that both its contender from LM and Boeing are not being selected , at a time when their industry needs order and they indeed they did heavy pitching from LM to Presidential level.

Lets hope the GOI will stick out its neck and stand by IAF choice. It would be interesting in days and months ahead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 12:37

any sign of US acting tough on other fronts like GE414 engines should only harden GOI resolve.

btw timothy roemer the US ambassador in delhi has resigned today and is heading home.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Apr 2011 12:42

Vishnu wrote:
Marten wrote: hehe, you're always on the dot, Sir!

Expect Durkha Butt to beat her err... drums and claim the process was rigged. Oh boy, unless they give her an "escorted" tour of Paris or Frankfurt/Madrid/the mother nation - Italy, there's going to be a lot of crying and yelling about the IAF's real choices not being entertained. "Reliable sources inform Undie TV that the process was rigged - proof being the files being found in the Oiro/Froggie consortium offices!"

Let the real games begin!
PS: Rakesh saar, we'll collect the sweets at AI 2013. Kindly dispatch the Arihant lot c/o Shiv saar.

Marten, Be careful about what you post ... changing a few letters in a name here and there doesn't protect you from libel. Not a threat, just friendly advice.

The news, from what I am hearing is accurate ... Rafale and Eurofighter make the downselect. However, we will need to wait for an official Defence Ministry statement which may well come tomorrow.

May the best plane win though I am disheartened that my personal favourite, the Gripen, hasnt made the cut !

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
NDTV

Vishnu Ji,

My friendly advise for you is to stop defending Barkha Dutt.
She is a political fixer operating under the garb of Journalist.
Btw, I have not changed any letters and welcome a libel suit from either Barkha Dutt or NDTV.
If need be I can send my personal information for filing a complaint against me.

Also, the above statement is from Govt documents related to 2G Scam.

Anyway OT..

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2011 13:02

Khalsa wrote:Guys a quick question in the context of MRCA and also since you are throwing numbers around here

What is the official number of aircraft in an IAF squadron ... 16 ?
What is the official number of aircraft in an Indian Naval squadron ... 12 ?

As per my reply earlier, here is a general breakdown:

Code: Select all

Typically in each Squadron, the assigned strength is as follows:

                         Single-Seater         Two-Seater            Total
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
IAF Squadron*               16                      2                  18
IN Squadron^                12                      3                  15


Notes:
* Usually the case, except for 2-seater MKIs (16 units/sqdn). Apart from this there are also deep reserves 
   held for aircraft type (not assigned to any particular squadron per se).
^ Judging by the recent acquisition of MiG-29K (12+4 & 24+5) and also looking at the original order for Sea Harriers (25+5)

Other typical breakdowns found in air forces are the following:

* One wing -> 3 to 4 squadrons
** One squadron -> 12 to 24 aircrafts
*** 2 to 4 flights (in one sqdn) -> each with 3 to 6 aircrafts
**** 2 sections (in one flight) -> each with 2 to 3 aircrafts

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2011 13:12

Singha wrote:any sign of US acting tough on other fronts like GE414 engines should only harden GOI resolve.

btw timothy roemer the US ambassador in delhi has resigned today and is heading home.

We cannot win via game of one up man ship with US , if we can screw them in few defense contract they can get back to us in 100 different ways.

So the only way to to negotiate and work with them on this , this loss is a big setback to them considering they made a huge fanfare about it.

timothy resignation is just a personal affair ,nothing to do with MMRCA or something else

From the usual reliable sources the IAF took a decision couple of months ago on the two winning contenders but MOD agreed 3 days back in a meeting on IAF choice,

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Apr 2011 13:18

i'm not so sure, we've given them lots of other sweetners, and will give them more
this was more of a showpiece deal though

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 28 Apr 2011 13:20

Vishnu wrote:
Marten, Be careful about what you post ... changing a few letters in a name here and there doesn't protect you from libel. Not a threat, just friendly advice.

The news, from what I am hearing is accurate ... Rafale and Eurofighter make the downselect. However, we will need to wait for an official Defence Ministry statement which may well come tomorrow.

May the best plane win though I am disheartened that my personal favourite, the Gripen, hasnt made the cut !

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
NDTV

LIBEL!? Damn it man, it's called freedom of goddamn speech. The only thing Marten is guilty of is using colourful language to describe some journalist that apparently has a reputation of bias and that's all.

In other news, I can honestly say that I am happier than a fat kid at an all you can eat buffet. Eurofighter and Rafale are really awesome aircraft and either will be a glorious addition to the IAF.

P.S. The PAKFA is the only aircraft that can make my mouth froth, so I eagerly await the FGFA

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 13:23

HUD camera footage of Rafale bagging F-18s on exercise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKOl-ASZMjs

python5 would be a good weapon for this kind of scene.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 28 Apr 2011 13:37

Regarding Possible US hostile reaction to Indians on the decision to go with Rafale/Eurofighter. I guess MOD before taking this decision must have analysed each and every pro-cons of kicking out the Amirkhans. There are other military deals {in near past and future } where IAF have shrugged off there long time partners in Russians to go with Americans . in C-130 J SH {6 more }, P-8 I. M-777 artillery guns, Javelins, C-17's, high possibility in IA going for 22-26 Apaches, Chinooks, Probable candidates for 197 light Helicopters {Bell copters }.

Of course, this deal would have been icing on cake for Americans, But they simply can't arm twist us that easily that one might think of. I sincerely applaud MOD decision to go with Better fighters . I guess this is the one message that GOI is trying to give to 'em . Indian Tax payer money is not tat cheap that Americans may think of . If you want good money sell us your best product ? Opening the way for JSF probably?

Will · Post by **Will** » 28 Apr 2011 13:38

The problem here is what kind of spine the GOI has , to stand up to uncle sams arm twisting. Notice there is no official confirmation yet. Like the engine deal for the LCA there could be many a slip between the cup and the lip .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2011 14:00

Singha wrote:HUD camera footage of Rafale bagging F-18s on exercise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKOl-ASZMjs

python5 would be a good weapon for this kind of scene.

Good Video with a nice sound track ,a similar exercise between SuperHornet and 29K with knife fight will be interesting.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 28 Apr 2011 14:03

Finally we see some clarity. If this info is true then I am sad the Grippen NG did not make and glad that F-16IN and F/A-18SH did not make it too.

Rafale is multi-role no doubt, unlike EFT. And IAF thinks very very highly about its mirage fighters. But I still have my misgivings regarding Rafale. More on strategic front and some on capability front. Since Rafael is going to take on PLAAF's Su-27/J-11, will it fare favorably compared to these two fighters? And how will we prevent the french from selling this fighter tech or its associated tech to the Chinese? We should not forget that barring the Spanish, it is the French who have worked the most to lift the European arms embargo against the Chinese.

Or is Rafale a bargaining chip to bring down the cost of EFT and force the EFT consortium to hand over more in terms of ToT

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 28 Apr 2011 14:14

Vishnu Som's reply to Martin was not proper. He must apologize otherwise he will lose his face on this forum and others. Some journalists have been considering themselves beyond law these days. They think that media power gives them the power to sue and bully people around.

If Vishnu doesn't apologize, then atleast i wont be reading his erstwhile good articles.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2011 14:25

aditya.agd wrote:Vishnu Som's reply to Martin was not proper. He must apologize otherwise he will lose his face on this forum and others. Some journalists have been considering themselves beyond law these days. They think that media power gives them the power to sue and bully people around.

If Vishnu doesn't apologize, then atleast i wont be reading his erstwhile good articles.

arre chhodo yaar. What's the big deal? One guy said something. Another guy replied something else - why get carried away and get all worked up? Its not such a big deal.

Not reading BRF would be a good decision especially if a libel suit demands that the owners of the forum should be responsible for content. It is OK to challenge someone to sue. The problem is that if that someone sues - it may affect others and the Webmasters may not want to be caught even in a trivial lawsuit just because one guy feels his hard on is harder than anyone elses. Better to let it pass as an issue between two people.

All this freedom of speech sheedom of speech stuff is American inspired bullshit. Ask one resident of America to post on this forum that he wants to see an American president killed and then see how much fun it is? So please. It is freedom of speech only as long as one's own balls remain untouched.

JMT

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 28 Apr 2011 14:40

Will wrote:The problem here is what kind of spine the GOI has , to stand up to uncle sams arm twisting. Notice there is no official confirmation yet. Like the engine deal for the LCA there could be many a slip between the cup and the lip .

I doubt that will be the case here since in this particular case the IAF has disqualified the other 4 fighters on technical grounds. Hence it will be very difficult for GOI to now consider these fighters, if the IAF says it doesnt suit its requirements.....

The GOI could of course scrap the whole deal if Unkil raises too much stink- And i doubt MMS has the spine to stand up to Unkil- he is more used to bending over in front of Unkil.

But i have another thought- who actually runs this country- not Unkil but Madame. And Madame is from a country that is one of the producerts of EFT- now just put two and two together......

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2011 14:43

This news from Dec 21 2010

ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

Dec 21, 2010
IAF to Chose From Eurofighter and Rafael: MRCA

After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says “If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.” But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 28 Apr 2011 14:48

Milind ... 17 years ago ... I considered myself a king of the flame wars on the first generation of Usenet groups out there. With the benefit of age, and on account of having been burnt on a couple of occasions, I have come to realise that if I believe in something, and I know it to be the truth, then that is good enough for me.

Can we please use this thread to discuss MMRCA, something so many of us have followed with bated breath for years.

I really don't want to engage you or others on Barkha, her work or her beliefs other than directing you to her statement at http://www.ndtv.com/page/?type=barkha-statement . You are also free to write to her at barkha@ndtv.com

For those interested, I am anchoring a special show on MMRCA at 7 pm this evening, nothing spectacular, but still ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor
NDTV

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 28 Apr 2011 14:51

^^ Vishnu, thanks I hope everyone can move on & focus on MRCA.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 28 Apr 2011 15:14

Just noticed that amongst the various people going through this topic is the following .... "Google Feedfetcher"

Just a reminder that we state or express here ... is still for all to see.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Apr 2011 15:36

Vishnu wrote:Milind ... 17 years ago ... I considered myself a king of the flame wars on the first generation of Usenet groups out there. With the benefit of age, and on account of having been burnt on a couple of occasions, I have come to realise that if I believe in something, and I know it to be the truth, then that is good enough for me.

I don't think anything has changed, you are still the 'king of the flame wars'

You started by bringing in a discussion of libel suit on a completely unrelated topic that too on an exposed colleague of your channel..

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Apr 2011 15:36

Well Well Well.........

What do we hear eh....... Khan out and Euro Canards in????

This in a situation where MMS would rather have his MMS leaked out rather than ditch Khan.

I have so many theories in my head as to why Hindi Khani will be allies, I was thinking that this deal will be a showcase to that.

anirban_aim wrote:My view of the thing is:

1) The deal will be expanded.

2) The downlist will have atleast one single engine, one American plane and one plane which probably will be most aspirational for the IAF.

The single engined plane will be used as a bargaining chip to bring down prices. All shortlisted vendors will revise prices downwards to get a bigger slice.

The final order will be split between the American contender and the other twin engined shortlisted candidate.

All the above and the final price negotiations will take more than a year or so and the final deal with suppliers will be signed in the last days of the incumbent govt.

Though, if things don't turn out this way, I will sit quitely in a corner and eat fried crow with humble pie, but I'm willing to stick this out. Lets see..

It seems its time for me to accept defeat and sit in the corner and eat the humble pie and roasted crow whaile facing the music.

I had little hope of Khan revival a -la

putnanja wrote:Never underestimate the power of khan. They managed to derail the process in Brazil, and they have heavily influenced other countries too. Like they say, it ain't over till it is over. Given the employment benefit that the US expects from this deal, and the clout US has with the PMO, I wouldn't write off the teens yet

and was thinking that the hotlines are buzzing already and the baba has already made his displeasure clear to MMS, who is in depression thinking how to fix St.Antony

But then I <BAM> I heard Roemer bhai got the boot. So Khans seem to be out for good, so its crow and humble pie for me.

But its all good, I might have totally wrong but its clear that IAF has chosen without fear or favor and if it helps its long term intrests then 3 cheers to it!!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 15:45

btw a UAE block60 F-16 skidded off a runway in europe today and the pilot ejected.

looking at the slim fuselage and tiny wings enfolding a massive engine and the kitchen sink ordance hanging off it, clearly one of the uglier, draggiest and more pumped-up-rat kind of a/c out there. and the F-16-block70-IN LM had promised would likely be even more overloaded and puffed up like a pregnant pig to meet our reqs.

and even the hardcore F18 fanboys will admit the rafale/EF can hold their own in a slow speed fight with the SH, use the same kind of JHMCS+TVC aams and are superior in the high speed/high alt BVR regime due to less wingloading and better wing design. its one trump card right now is the APG79 (since even EF mounts amraam, iris-t and asraam)..but euros are working to negate that 'soon'

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 28 Apr 2011 15:49

per the news report we have asked for extension of commercial bids from these 2 vendors.
does this imply that the others are definitely out, or can the others still be "in" as long as they do not change their commercial bids?

my apologies if this may appear to be a silly Q

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 15:50

their commercial bids all expire today. unless asked they cannot resubmit bids again. its over for them as their bids are no longer valid from today.
SAAB has accepted it with grace , boeing and LM could be trying the back channel route for sure to worm back in or atleast disrupt the process.

look for certain "leaks" and "breaking news" next few days, if they have any useful dirt now is when it will be exposed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2011 16:11

The Rafale IN angle would be interesting since IN is/will be in the market for new types once it moves beyond IAC-1 and MMRCA lic production is still 4-5 years away.

Unless IN decided that it needs nothing less than JSF the IN angle could play an important role in MMRCA selection.

Hope Philip could join us soon.