India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Dilbu » 29 Apr 2011 10:46

Saar will you please tell me how we should consider strategic implications in buying a plane? Should we look at the performance of the machine or should we look at the size of seller's danda (pun intended)? And what if you are not happy with the machine but there is a shiver in your dhoti because of the danda? The basic question is whether we should compromise the performance and buy something based on strategygiri or go ahead and buy the best machine and deal with the strategygiri later.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 10:49

strategies and alliances can change overnight as events take their course.
a good plane only gets better. a bad plane has a tough hike to be a good plane.

I would go with the plane over chankian strategy.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ashkrishna » 29 Apr 2011 10:52

Quite obviously , the best plane should be chosen with no space for "tactical brilliance" type thinking. Let me rephrase the question, will the government machinery be able to back IAF's decision in the face of a heavy media based backlash spearheaded by lifafa journalism? If they do, then we have emerged the winners in this saga.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 10:55

Vishnu wrote:
To be sure ... I entirely accept the argument that the IAF SHOULD get the jet is truly wants ... in which case ... this entire tender process is a joke ... where companies end up spending upwards of 25 million dollars to fly down jets to get them evaluated in what is, realistically, a lost cause for them.


Well it's a risk every country / company has to take. They were invited not forced to bring in thier jets.

Vishnu wrote: As an example .. Did the IAF really need the F-16 to fly down to India for it to be failed on the grounds that its design life was reaching an end ? (Assuming that this was the thinking in the IAF). Did the Gripen really need to fly down a prototype to India for the IAF to be convinced that the jet was still a product in development? Or is it really fair that the jets that did badly in the technical trials were assessed on the basis of one bad day (the Leh high altitude tests for example). CISMOA and other intrusive US laws were ALWAYS present ... If the IAF was concerned about these (assuming that they were) ... then why invite the US jets for the tender in the first place ?


IAF issued a RFP. F16s were what were offered. Now if the IAF would have stated even before giving the Americans a fair chance to demonstrate the capabilities of whatever they were feilding, then there was chance a lot of people wouldhave cried foul. Ditto with Gripen.

Vishnu wrote: Somebody told me yesterday ... slightly exaggerated ... but interesting nonetheless ... "Its like the IAF was told to go to a showroom to buy a sports car and they said `Give me that gorgeous red Ferrari !" Sure, the Ferraris in this case, the Rafale and the Typhoon are incredible platforms ... NO disputing that ... its just the process I am questioning ...

Thanks
Vishnu


Process was just fine. This is how large purchases are done. I am not in defence but my company does do a lot of advertising it is largest single vendor order we issue every financial year. We send out a RFP. We give every company that applies a chance to present. Now some fly down, and some take the bus, Some come with art work some even come with commercials already shot, how are we bothered with that?
Last edited by Sri on 29 Apr 2011 10:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby krishnan » 29 Apr 2011 10:56

the tender was probably floated to get the best leverage and also the fact that if we had just gone with US for this , then there would be shouts of corruption.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 10:56

I've been wanting to post this since last night but posting this now (Man this thread moves).

1. The Netas vary of the scams that have hit GoI ministers recently, played safe and MoD announced that the IAF did the downselect based on technical parameters of the aircraft as per the parameters laid down in the RFP.

Now the netas and babus will step in and with the IAF guys will beat out the best deal for the country. (The airforce has already told them that the two finalists are acceptable).

From this point forward, things such as offsets, strategic relationships, cost - both economic and political leverage come into play.

Now the real muck raking and shady, dicey stuff begins.

2. Very important point raised by Adm. Raja Menon:
i) He questions the way the selection process was structured. He says this is the same process that has been used since the last 2- 2.5 decades. (My observation: The forces test the equipment, give their choices, and then the netas and babus make a hash of it)
He feels that a different approach is needed for defence aquisitions. Perhaps a more integrated approach where offsets, political capital etc are brought in right at the outset?
ii)He was referring to the EADS Eurofighter, when he questions what political leverage can a consortium of 4 nations bring to the table with India. My feeling is that he forsees that things might not be smooth sailing with the EADS. Perhaps because the Eurofighter is in particular no ones own baby - the sense of belonging to each of the 4 nations is not that strong. At the end of the day, Germany and the UK will only look at what their share of the whole deal is going to be worth - which might be like a third of the whole deal.

Compare that with the french - for them this is a $11 billion deal. They are very very eager to seal this deal.

3. I don't expect too much trouble from the losing competitors. Because the downselect is based on technical and performance characters of the aircraft. Even things mentioned in the media, such as after sales support, US congress's shenegians, restrictive TOT laws etc haven't yet been considered by the IAF at all. That is something that will only now come up.
The losers lost because their planes didn't fly and fight well. That's shameful. The F-18 or the F-16 are pigs with lipstick on, and if they have trouble flying off Leh airfield with full load against say a war with China, then they in trouble, AESA radar non-withstanding. Imagine the US aircrafts lost out on technical parameters inspite of AESA radars!

4. Vishnu Som's program was 50-50.
6/10 on presentation (Vishnu you shouldn't fumble on your sentences, and you shouldn't waste time on long sentences if all you have is 22 mins).
4/10 on Graphics and the timing. The person bringing up the graphics had to take cues from Vishnu and delayed bringing up the graphics (Importance of practising beforehand specially when dealing with rank anaris), and finally this was intended for the ingliss speaking mango abdul, and you should have explained AESA with things such as the latest, cutting edge and stuff like that.

The mango abdul that one is targetting with the NDTV audience are the girlie types who only know what they see in a hollywood movie - Mission impossible types. They have to be made to understand. Instead of saying:
Standoff capability, and precision guided munition

use:
The ability to hit an enemy tank with a missile fired from 50 or 100 kms away!!!
Very much in the ball park of what the Americans use to praise their stuff (They have satellites that can read a vehicles' number plate. The effort is to amaze the mango abdul with colorful language, not drab technical terms. I guess it doesn't matter if the range can be rounded off to impress the abduls.

But final point: Vishnu, you are perhaps the only one (other than shiv aroor) actually doing reasonable defence journalism in India. That arnab goswami has been hyperventilating on about the purulia arms drop story - I wonder if he's slept at all since the last two days! :D And that Kim Davis is no different that Osama, supplying weapons and trying to justify it too, and JK dutt is a villan (Gasp!!!).

[/ramble]

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rasiklal » 29 Apr 2011 10:58

I have no doubts, in fact I have never had any, that this time too, the MoD and the respective HQ have made the right choice. I have read too much of fluff on the F-teens by that airport novel hack of a chickenhawk, way back in the day when some posters here were in shortpants. Enough to know that these Kahn airframes are seriously long in the tooth. The F-teens did mark a radical departure back in the day making possible all sorts of maneuvers that no one thought possible. A generation has passed since then and airframe tech has moved on, with late 1990s electronics making possible ever more ambitious airframes. Maybe the MoD and Vayu Bhavan shd have simply called for the Munni and Sheila right away instead of going thru this rigmarole of Becky, Dorothy, Ingrid and Olga. But that is also assuming I know more than grizzled veterans who have been flying planes since I was in shortpants! Give some credit to the IAF team who between them have 1000s of hrs of hard flying experience of the order of >200 hours/year. Among these are the officers who have cut their teeth (or learnt their craft from those) flying against an equally well trained and motivated AF with matched hardware capabilities. I believe the IAF are the best aviators and aviation leadership around, no exceptions.

Here's the order of business-
-It is about buying aircraft to defend your wazoo, my wazoo, and some-strategic-affairs-expert-who-runs-a-blog's wazoo.
-When our enemies don't think that we are in a post-nuclear world with MAD or whatever and are only jacking up their defence budgets, it makes no sense for us to buy airframes just to keep Khan happy.
-There are nations that at one time or the other have decided that wars are over, and there is no need to invest in offensive weaponry - yeah like the Czechoslovakia of the 1930s
-Maybe the technical difference between Munni/Sheila vs. Becky/Dorothy is academic given the low likelihood of a conventional war as one "strategic" affairs blogger puts it. Maybe also that when your enemy looks at you and sees that you and sees that you own a rifle, shotgun, LMG, and not just an airgun (like your other enemy next door) he will think twice about staring you down. That's how it works.
-The Asian hegemon doesn't please Khan by buying whatever Khan offers. The hegemon gets his work done by offering a dirt cheap manufacturing base that keeps Deewar Sadak happy, by making it possible for Khanland companies to simply save on expenditure, top line be damned. Khan works in mysterious ways. During the Detroit bailout debate in the Congress in 2009,guess whence the loudest naysaying cong'men came from? TN, KY, AL, etc., where foreign automakers are based, which stood to lose the most from a bailout of the domestic auto industry. Khan did the right thing then by bailing out the domestic auto industry saving millions of jobs and Chrysler today is close to repaying its loans to Uncle Sam. Khan companies want to sell more and more to the Asian hegemon even though the latter is no longer simply a buyer,and rapidly moving up the value chain, and wants more and more technology - they want the seed corn. And Khan companies are so dependent on the China manufacturing base to maintain their share of value added that they are willing to drop anything. India has a teensyweensy bit of leverage with our service companies playing much the same role, but barely. The last two years have seen plenty of denunciation of job stealing by India (H1B, cheap healthcare etc) but come every Black Friday, doorbuster deals, Amazon.com, Apple etc., no Khanlandwala gives a damn. They continue to buy Made in China stuff.
I hope no one thinks Indians are naive, because Indians don't believe our interlocutors are naive. :roll:

-And let's take a long and hard breath about these big numbers $10 billion over five years? C'mon maskari mat kar yaar. Rs.40,000 crore? How big was the DMK/telecom scam? Rs.1.7 lakh crore :eek: :eek: :eek: Reliance Industries is $45 billion company that made a net of $4.5 billion last year. Tata Steel purchased the Corus Group in an all cash deal, worth $ 12.04 Billion in 2006. When Morarji Desai's government signed a Rs.1,500 crore arms deal with the Soviets in 1977, there were few Indian private sector companies with revenues >Rs.100 crore those days. Now? The 1st world had better get used to a growing and assertive Indian economy that will not be forever an high tech importer. Neither will it be a self-ssufficient manufacturer. It will become a strategic value added economy so best to get used to becoming a strategic supply web partner.
Last edited by rasiklal on 29 Apr 2011 11:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shukla » 29 Apr 2011 11:00

Rafale, Typhoon score on merit
Deccan Chronicle

Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 11:02

I do not understand why we must have all 126 Aircraft of the same type. Can't we have a mix of Rafale, and American and Russian Fighters as well.Why and who decided that we have all 126 of the same brand.It is not a wise policy.We must match enemy aircraft too, equally, so some American Aircraft maybe at least 42 American, 42 French, and 42 Russian ones would be a good combination to reach the 126 Aircraft requirement, and would keep many mouths shut. Now we will be encouraging both Russia and America to pamper our neighbours with their wares.This is what I feel.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby krishnan » 29 Apr 2011 11:06

Then why MMRCA tender and these long process? Just buy 50-100 from each vendor

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sum » 29 Apr 2011 11:07

^^ And the logistics circus to maintain such a fleet? As if current circus isnt enough...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Lilo » 29 Apr 2011 11:08

Austin wrote:MMRCA tender has always been a joke , how else would you justify a Gripen and Rafale competing for the same pie or F-18E/F and F-16 competing for the same share of market when there is a vast difference in capability and performance.

An ex-chief mentioned that there would not be any discrimination between single and dual engine fighter and in the end IAF chooses a fighter it really wants.

The tender was just a political gimmick to show every thing was fair and square , they should have instead sent restricted tender if they want selective and equal capability to be proven on ground based on parameters IAF has set , for eg sending tenders to just Boeing , Dassult and EADS would have been a very fair process , considering the others are in light/medium category.

IAF definitely gets what it wants and rightly so but this would leave the other losers thinking they were just made to look like fools in the entire MMRCA process.


I may be wrong,
but i think , IAF really didnt know what it wanted back in 2000 when it first started out. Thus it used these ten years of selection process as a learning phase to identify and test the various western fighter design doctrines which were accessible to it.

the following design aspects looks to be zeroed on based on this down select.

>High degree of Passive stealth (Eurofighter,Rafale in top bracket --- gripen and teens in the second bracket --- least stealthy being the Mig)
>Faith in the Delta wing (Rafale,Eurofighter,Gripen -- Have , Rest -- Dont have)
>Capability vis-a-vis network centric warfare (F18,f16 - Excellent and Proven , Eurofighter,Rafale - scope to EXCEED the teens but not proven -- major risk factor being the in-development AESA radar)
>Preference for a Twin Engine fighter --- for better survivability and Power/Weight ratio ? (Gripen and F16 loose out)
>TOT and influence over the subsequent design iterations. (Rafale,Eurofighter -- substantial scope , Rest -- very less scope)
>Scope for Indian and third party systems to be integrated into the fighter . (Rafale,Eurofighter,Mig35,Gripen --- possible , F16 F18 quite difficult if not impossible)

Vishnu wrote: in which case ... this entire tender process is a joke ... where companies end up spending upwards of 25 million dollars to fly down jets to get them evaluated in what is, realistically, a lost cause for them.


To answer vishnu's question i think whosoever spent their money and effort to bring down their fighter aircraft and to build relationships with the indian Neta-Babu dom and the media, ultimately knew they were betting on the respective USPs of their fighters to be taken up by the IAF as the defining mantra for its next generation force.

-Teens (network centric warfare and armaments) ,
-Gripen (serviceability and TOT) ,
-Mig (cost and TOT)

so they cant complain now that theirs was not chosen .

The corollary to this conclusion can be that for the foreseeable future IAF would not be inviting such an open ended tender from so many fighter manufacturers.
Last edited by Lilo on 29 Apr 2011 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Nihat » 29 Apr 2011 11:14

Now that the contest is down to between Eurofighter and Rafale at least there is some certainty to what capabilities the IAF is looking for and what are available.

The Rafale has a clear cut edge IMHO, only because looking at our modern inventory and the aircraft's we are inducting such as MKI, MiG-29 and LCA Mk1 all of them in the category of either "air dominance" or "point defense" aircraft's. The role of a ground pounder has been somewhat vacant , especially since Mig-27's are retiring. Rafale outscores Eurofighter on range and payload not to mention A2G experience in Afghanistan and Libya. the AESA is close for the Rafale whereas it's not even in sight for the EF and not to mention the additional hassle of dealing with multiple vendors V/s the French who may be blood suckers when it comes to money (who isn't) but atleast we can be reasonably sure of their strategic independence.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 11:20

iirc EADS, dassault systems, snecma , thomson also have engg centers in blr.

of the american mil-industrial biggies only GE has a center (doing civilian side work). GM is not really a mil-ind type?

granted none are doing secret or cutting edge mil work here, but they are building a base in a emerging supapawa and tapping human resources and building bridges into all of DRDO cave complex ....

no boeing, no LM, no raytheon, no northrop grumann....

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 11:23

When I go shopping I try to get different brands of the same thing to check which is better, so the entire exercise is valid. We have to taste the mangoes, the grapes. the chikoos and we also have to taste the bananas, and we need mangoes, grapes,chikoos and bananas to make a good fruit salad. Also add pomegranates and guavas.
However the decision to buy 126 numbers of the same aircraft is questionable, as now we will have a bland fruit salad consisting only of European Apples.

Imagine if you were buying it all, and you were the King of India, Singh is King, what would you do. Imagine that and see where democracy is leading us...........a tasteless banana salad for a banana republic.I would surely not want to fly exclusively a Rafale. I would, as a pilot, want to fly different fighters for different reasons and purposes. I think we should have re-structured the demand, 21 of each of the six types of aircraft, or shortlisted 3 out of 6 and got 42 each of the aircrafts. A combination works out better always.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 11:25

The IAF really LOVED the Mirage 2000. Rumour has it that you had to be someone special to be able to fly it - like in a kid of a Air chief marshal (Just kidding, bad taste etc), and was IAF's favourite fighter until the Rambha came along.

The EF and Rafale Cockpits are generations apart too in terms of styling and design.

The EF has a 4th gen type cockpit with those displays much like all 4th gen planes have, and a joystick in the middle.
The Rafale has a 5th gen feel. BIG, curved, displays, the controls are on either sides, and the seat appears to be inclined like the F-16.

Question: Will the winner add features hence forth? I am sure the contenders only carried the minimum stuff that would satisfy the RFP and a little extra. They would have avoided the latest of the latest stuff. Like the active signature cancellation that the French are alleged to have invented.
The Boeing team knew that their plane was under powered, and they offered a higher power engine, but at a very late stage, which the IAF duly rejected. I wonder if including new things would provide a legal foothold to the losers. Not that it matters, they will crib, but mostly in private.

2. Everyone has gotten major deals from India, EXCEPT the Europeans. The Germans are getting the U-206 AIP upgrade, and the brits have gotten the Hawk trainer. Not much to speak of. The Swedes havent' gotten anything yet.

Compare that with the French and the Americans - Reactors, Mirage 2000 upgrades, Scorpenes for the former, F414s, C-130, P-8Is and possibly C-17s (Though the price quoted for the C-17 sounds more like highway robbery to me).

Going by that line of reason, this might go to EADS.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 11:29

Sarkozy's visit to Agra and Fatehpur Sikri has kind of got him some luck on two fronts, he is gonna have a baby and India just might end up making France rich.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 11:31

^^^

French are desperate for this deal. I am sure some secret assurances etc. would have played thier role.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ashkrishna » 29 Apr 2011 11:38

sanjeevpunj wrote:When I go shopping I try to get different brands of the same thing to check which is better, so the entire exercise is valid. We have to taste the mangoes, the grapes. the chikoos and we also have to taste the bananas, and we need mangoes, grapes,chikoos and bananas to make a good fruit salad. Also add pomegranates and guavas.
However the decision to buy 126 numbers of the same aircraft is questionable, as now we will have a bland fruit salad consisting only of European Apples.

Imagine if you were buying it all, and you were the King of India, Singh is King, what would you do. Imagine that and see where democracy is leading us...........a tasteless banana salad for a banana republic.I would surely not want to fly exclusively a Rafale. I would, as a pilot, want to fly different fighters for different reasons and purposes. I think we should have re-structured the demand, 21 of each of the six types of aircraft, or shortlisted 3 out of 6 and got 42 each of the aircrafts. A combination works out better always.



I think the fruit salad analogy misses the point. The logistical nightmare, the hellish prospect of negotiating with 3 separate vendors and the simple fact that the air force fleet is not a fruit salad makes it logical to stick with one vendor. Why would anyone chose three different aircraft to satisfy one operational demand?

Choosing 3 different aircraft would also mean goodbye to TOT as HAL would find it quite expensive and impractical to produce just 40 aircraft of each type.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 11:40

EF cockpit - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pLcgtL4pTTQ/S ... ockpit.jpg

(note the big clean widely spaced knobs and switches on side panels vs the mass of buttons on old style side panels like the MKI...one that caused in a fatal crash in rajasthan)

Rafale - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2649/403 ... 76a687.jpg
http://www.aero.pub.ro/wp-content/theme ... 010616.jpg
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby viveks » 29 Apr 2011 11:41

Indian government has a lot of money now!!! A cash strapped third world nation goes for the 90 million pound a piece jet that may not be completely potent against the worthy adversaries. Rafale or EF2k. The F-16IN cannot be at the end of design life. The cockpit view of the aircraft is something is just awesome.
Perhaps the IAF thought after sales services would be a key thing. And the aircraft up-time. Going for the EF2k....would please the European workforce a lot especially when there is a situation where our own companies have significant industrial presence there. I think EF2k...will make the selection process.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sanku » 29 Apr 2011 11:43

Vishnu's PoV has been very disappointing.

I think from IAFs perspective Rafale was a clear winner from the word go. The entire packaging was more to ensure everybody (including electorate) that there is no hidden hand and scope for wrong doing.

Kudos to IAF. Very well done.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Christopher Sidor » 29 Apr 2011 12:00

sanjeevpunj wrote:I do not understand why we must have all 126 Aircraft of the same type. Can't we have a mix of Rafale, and American and Russian Fighters as well.Why and who decided that we have all 126 of the same brand.It is not a wise policy.We must match enemy aircraft too, equally, so some American Aircraft maybe at least 42 American, 42 French, and 42 Russian ones would be a good combination to reach the 126 Aircraft requirement, and would keep many mouths shut. Now we will be encouraging both Russia and America to pamper our neighbours with their wares.This is what I feel.


Boss it is not only about airframes. It is about support structures, it is about pilot training. Can a pilot fly a Mig29/35 on Monday, Mirage/Rafael on Tuesday and Jaguar/EFT/Tornado on Wednesday. Highly unlikely. And will such a pilot be able to perform at the top notch level in case of a conflict with PRC. Extremly unlikely.
We in India has a plethora of fighters airframes. No other air force in the world flies the variety of aircraft that we do. The need of the hour is to bring down these numbers so that we can simplify.

We need to build IAF around Su-30MKI/FGFA/Mig-29/LCA/AMCA/MRCA. This is the fighter fleet which should be the target in 2020. Splitting the deal might make political and strategic sense, but it is operationally and tactically madness.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 12:02

hey vishnu..
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Reason: No need to get personal - Chill out.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurinder P » 29 Apr 2011 12:03

viveks wrote:Indian government has a lot of money now!!! A cash strapped third world nation goes for the 90 million pound a piece jet that may not be completely potent against the worthy adversaries. Rafale or EF2k. The F-16IN cannot be at the end of design life. The cockpit view of the aircraft is something is just awesome.
Perhaps the IAF thought after sales services would be a key thing. And the aircraft up-time..



Interesting analogy. Would you buy a 1972 pinto that ford upgraded the interior to include alot of buttons on the steering wheel over a oh lets say Bugatti Veyron? (assuming you had the cash). If the IAF only thought that a flashy cockpit was the edge, the Rafale would still be a contender, but lets see why the F 16 is near the end of its life,...the IN will most likely be the last block for the jet that first flew in 1970, and LM thew in the JSF, knowing that the F 16 wouldn't meet the lifetime upkeep of spares that IAF requested, and LM would weasel another nation into the already over buget, and still not in production aircraft called the F 35.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 12:05

Christopher Sidor wrote:Boss it is not only about airframes. It is about support structures, it is about pilot training. Can a pilot fly a Mig29/35 on Monday, Mirage/Rafael on Tuesday and Jaguar/EFT/Tornado on Wednesday. Highly unlikely. And will such a pilot be able to perform at the top notch level in case of a conflict with PRC. Extremly unlikely.
We in India has a plethora of fighters airframes. No other air force in the world flies the variety of aircraft that we do. The need of the hour is to bring down these numbers so that we can simplify.

We need to build IAF around Su-30MKI/FGFA/Mig-29/LCA/AMCA/MRCA. This is the fighter fleet which should be the target in 2020. Splitting the deal might make political and strategic sense, but it is operationally and tactically madness.


Thanks Christopher, I get the feel. I agree with you that we must simplify.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Anabhaya » 29 Apr 2011 12:06

MMRCA: Of leverage and liability

It is slightly discomforting that critics of MoD were not seen opposing the MMRCA tender process up until the point when US jets got rejected. If $10bn worth of purchases were to be a political decision the process was not required in the first place and any criticism of MoD vis a vis losing an opportunity to engage the US must have been made with no less vehemence when the testing/tendering process was in motion.
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Whilst there was some attempt to customise some agreements to assuage Indian sentiments the framework of a US military export showed itself to be utterly uncompromising on its needlessly intrusive tenets for the sake of material interests such as more jobs and orders for US Mil-Ind complex. Visiting dignitaries attempted to explain away such agreements as mere formalities that will not affect the end-user. It would have been interesting if anybody dared question the dignitaries as to why the US insists on such agreements if they were not so important at all. At the end of the day the US executive had a clear redline which it did not want to cross just so to sell a couple of hundred aircrafts.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 12:07

ashkrishna wrote:I think the fruit salad analogy misses the point. The logistical nightmare, the hellish prospect of negotiating with 3 separate vendors and the simple fact that the air force fleet is not a fruit salad makes it logical to stick with one vendor. Why would anyone chose three different aircraft to satisfy one operational demand?

Choosing 3 different aircraft would also mean goodbye to TOT as HAL would find it quite expensive and impractical to produce just 40 aircraft of each type.


Yes the analogy is too simplistic.I was just trying to write a little more creatively.Thanks for pointing it out.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 12:09

Whichever way it goes now, we will have to outperform the TSPs aircraft in real combat some day.I wish the best to the IAF, whatever the decision is.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Anant » 29 Apr 2011 12:12

Give Vishnu a break. He's free to his opinions as are the rest of you. Nevertheless, don't lose your civility when countering an opinion. Some of you have let your euphoria and distaste of things American get to you and have started to flame him. All that does is reduce the intellectual discourse of this otherwise excellent forum. I urge the moderators to clean this thread or at least warn people not to attack people ad hominem for holding opposing view points. Regardless, good luck to the IAF. I am sure they know what is best.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 12:14

Correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems that the two US fighters in the competition were 2nd best and 2nd line planes.

They really score on the technology and the armaments, but are weak on the flight parameters itself.

It is a credit to the networked warfare capabilities of the US armed forces that even these planes which are somewhat deficient can go into battle and win it for the US.

India, and for that matter no other nation, has the networked warfare capabilities that the US has. And so the aircraft has to be better in every aspect. The network can't be expected to pitch in and save the day every working second. The plane that India selects has to do every thing right, stand at the top on its own.

The US has a number of other platforms that it can rely on if these two didn't do the job, hell they can dump a 100 cruise missiles if they don't want their fighters to go in.

Things are different for all other armed forces.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 12:22

Anant wrote:Give Vishnu a break. He's free to his opinions as are the rest of you. Nevertheless, don't lose your civility when countering an opinion. Some of you have let your euphoria and distaste of things American get to you and have started to flame him. All that does is reduce the intellectual discourse of this otherwise excellent forum. I urge the moderators to clean this thread or at least warn people not to attack people ad hominem for holding opposing view points. Regardless, good luck to the IAF. I am sure they know what is best.


People here are expressing their opinion only Anant. I am sure Vishnu appreciates it too as he is expressed the same in his last post. Where's the problem? Unless you feel these opinions are personal attacks. This lingo is quite normal on BRF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Anant » 29 Apr 2011 12:24

Sri, I was referring to personal attacks, not the latter. I've been on here for more than a decade so I understand the lingo. Thank you.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby viveks » 29 Apr 2011 12:27

Gurinder P wrote:Would you buy a 1972 pinto that ford upgraded the interior to include alot of buttons on the steering wheel over a oh lets say Bugatti Veyron? (assuming you had the cash). If the IAF only thought that a flashy cockpit was the edge, the Rafale would still be a contender, but lets see why the F 16 is near the end of its life,...the IN will most likely be the last block for the jet that first flew in 1970, and LM thew in the JSF, knowing that the F 16 wouldn't meet the lifetime upkeep of spares that IAF requested, and LM would weasel another nation into the already over buget, and still not in production aircraft called the F 35.


The F-16 was made when the world had many violent potential conflicts. Its a killing machine designed by kings. You should know that that the Taxis in the UK are still the old ones with a new engine & stuff. Lunatics create such machines with love. I think this deal is about pleasing a workforce because a lot of indian investment has gone in the core sector in europe but not in the US.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 12:39

An interesting page for those seeking minute comparison parameters between Rafale and Typhoon.

http://topolo.free.fr/Compare/Rafale%20vs%20Typhoon.pdf

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 12:43

I recall a brf member (was it vivek ahuja?) had run some numbers on the M88 and EJ200 and arrived at a counter intuitive (if we follow popular perception) conclusion that as the fight got higher alt and faster the M88 was actually more efficient than the EJ200.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 12:45

manum wrote:hey vishnu...I am really wondering about your thought process...need to speak less about it though...

You expect a nation about to give billions of doller...not to test the options and get feel of them...you expecting we wont get the juice out of the deal...
You were expecting us to award consolation prizes to others...buying atleast 18 from each...

Do you go to a shop and not try different shirts...may not buying any of em too...so you feel sorry for shop keeper...I really dont understand where your common sense is lost...

May its somewhere in the gripen you flew...you must go back and search in gripen cockpit...if they havent cleaned it already...


Hi Manum ... never said trials shouldnt have taken place ... have only raised questions on the tender process ... in light of the shortlist of two jets which dont have operational AESAs. Have also argued the futility of evaluating aircraft from the US when, quite clearly, you don't want to be potentially tied down with intrusive legal issues. In an ideal world (which clearly does not exist), the IAF could have made a short shortlist ruling out the Gripen NG (they didnt need to test it in India to know its state of development). Also, as mentioned, some of the reasons given in the rejection letters (which I am privy to ... but cannot report) are on concerns which can easily be addressed. Its clear the IAF wanted to shortlist these two birds and thats fine ... it wasnt necessary to go through the entire extended trial circus. However, that is hardly a choice the Indian Air Force has ... the rules of an open tender are clear and they were adhered to.

Thanks
Vishnu
PS My commonsense is still intact .. though the 9 G plus maneuver I did in the Gripen NG may have squeezed my brain just a bit.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 12:53

from the chart Sanjeevpunj posted seems like in high level A2A the typhoon may be 5-10% better, Rafale is 5-10% better at low level A2A and Rafale is generally better in the medium alt strike mission , while typhoon with its higher dash speed, climb rate and acceleration might be better as a QRT interceptor heading off inbounds quicker.
ofcourse this is discounting sensors, RCS and weapons totally. however the rafale should have better loiter time and range on full internal fuel due to more internal fuel and smaller engines.

I'd say 5% advantage to rafale based on such raw yardsticks and another 10% based on proven A2G capabilities.

aesa radars and TOT pkgs if considered equal, we could have the rafale as a comfortable winner in the end.

we should not worry too much about A2A - the MKI MLU will feature a zhuk aesa radar of enormous aperture and the Big dog PAKFA-I is coming with its all new NIIP aesa , new flyswatter missiles and huge thrust AL41F engines. when its time to kick some a$$ these two will work in datalinked tag teams.

but we could use some high level help in the DPSA mission given the m2k and older Jags will at best last 10 more yrs and the new Jags like all Jags have range, alt and payload modest limits.
Last edited by Singha on 29 Apr 2011 12:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Apr 2011 12:56

Vishnu wrote:My only point is this ... and this is something that never really came up on my programme: I believe there is merit in the argument that the selection process was NOT objective. There may be truth in the argument that according to the 600 + technical parameters planes were assessed on .. NONE of the jets made it. Similarly, if the IAF was willing to be lenient, ALL the jets could have made the cut. Instead, its possible that the IAF picked and chose the technical factors on which to reject some of the competitors while downplaying the technical shortcomings of those jets that did make it. How else could the Rafale and the Eurofighter make it on the basis of having far from FULLY developed and operational AESA radars?

To be sure ... I entirely accept the argument that the IAF SHOULD get the jet is truly wants ... in which case ... this entire tender process is a joke ... where companies end up spending upwards of 25 million dollars to fly down jets to get them evaluated in what is, realistically, a lost cause for them.

As an example .. Did the IAF really need the F-16 to fly down to India for it to be failed on the grounds that its design life was reaching an end ? (Assuming that this was the thinking in the IAF). Did the Gripen really need to fly down a prototype to India for the IAF to be convinced that the jet was still a product in development? Or is it really fair that the jets that did badly in the technical trials were assessed on the basis of one bad day (the Leh high altitude tests for example). CISMOA and other intrusive US laws were ALWAYS present ... If the IAF was concerned about these (assuming that they were) ... then why invite the US jets for the tender in the first place ?

Somebody told me yesterday ... slightly exaggerated ... but interesting nonetheless ... "Its like the IAF was told to go to a showroom to buy a sports car and they said `Give me that gorgeous red Ferrari !" Sure, the Ferraris in this case, the Rafale and the Typhoon are incredible platforms ... NO disputing that ... its just the process I am questioning ...

Thanks
Vishnu


Vishnu whose side are you on? Just 'cause f16/18, grippen give you test rides you turn against our own IAF. Why are you getting so much heartburn f16 to have been flown to India? Well our airforce had a good look at this jet owned by enemy country. In fact it was the beauty of the whole thing that IAF got a good look on 6 a/cs and studied their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm sure if gripen was chosen you'd be celebrating and not calling IAF's tender as a joke. :roll:
It was obvious from your posts even 2 years back that gripen was your favourite, well you may have tried to stay objective but it was dripping out of your posts and Oct' 09 in this post I had mentioned it:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5055&hilit=vishnu&start=2400

Vishnu regarding your favourite I think I know what it is. It's been obvious in your posts with the affection you have been writing about this jet and that is:
Grippen


And here is where you mentioned your own disappointment with Rafale + Ef2k 'cause they didn't give you any attention:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5055&p=763350&hilit=vishnu#p763350

Quite frankly, I have been rather disappointed with Dassault and Eurofighter. I did make a concerted effort to reach out to them for my series, the Jet Set ... but they didn't seem terrible interested ... and haven't really been in touch with me at all !


So Vishnu Som gets snubbed by Dassault and Eurobird and IAF downselects these very birds, so hot shot reporter starts calling IAF's tender and parametes a joke + plus starts :cry: :cry: :cry: for poor f/16's wasted fuel on trip to India. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So much for unbiased reporting!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurinder P » 29 Apr 2011 13:01

viveks wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:Would you buy a 1972 pinto that ford upgraded the interior to include alot of buttons on the steering wheel over a oh lets say Bugatti Veyron? (assuming you had the cash). If the IAF only thought that a flashy cockpit was the edge, the Rafale would still be a contender, but lets see why the F 16 is near the end of its life,...the IN will most likely be the last block for the jet that first flew in 1970, and LM thew in the JSF, knowing that the F 16 wouldn't meet the lifetime upkeep of spares that IAF requested, and LM would weasel another nation into the already over buget, and still not in production aircraft called the F 35.


The F-16 was made when the world had many violent potential conflicts. Its a killing machine designed by kings. You should know that that the Taxis in the UK are still the old ones with a new engine & stuff. Lunatics create such machines with love. I think this deal is about pleasing a workforce because a lot of indian investment has gone in the core sector in europe but not in the US.


As was the Mig 21, 25, 29, M2K, tornado, Avro Arrow (who the US forced Canada to squelch).

Take it this way, the Mig 21 Bison and the Mig 29 are designed to take on the f16. SU 30 MKI can tango, and waltz perfection around the f16 while the 16 can barely bump and grind. As for the investments, India has a choice for the fighters, why would the IAF get the F16 and F18 when countries like Canada are already starting their phase outs. Even the airframe is more olde school and Will Smith's rapping career, they don't even have canards to provide maneuverability. Gun fights will happen and would you rather sit in a F16 facing a Euro Canard that is out turning you, and covering your tail like a diaper? Missiles and gadgets aren't everything and that is the reason the eurocanards are 4.5 gen and the f16 f18 are 4th and 4+ only. You said you liked the F16IN's cockpit so much, check out the Rafale, same design with the throttle and joystick on the sides, and all the fancy battle and ECM suites, and no American price overheads.
Last edited by Gurinder P on 29 Apr 2011 13:05, edited 1 time in total.


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