Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 29 Apr 2011 10:52

"The Rs 14,000 crore ($3.1 billion) contract already has been signed by the army and BDL. The company is expected to make 500 missiles per year, and the first batch will roll out by September 2012. “All the missiles under this order will be of the same version,” Prahlada says."

First time there is report of good number of missiles being produced per year - 500. Else it is terrible to hear 10-12 of Prithvi/Agni (I dont remember which one it was- as reported on the forum earlier) being produced in a year. Even Brahmos numbers are not very agreesive.

At this rate, BDL will be done with the contract in 2 years (assuming all other sub-systems are available at same rate). Hope they continue the good work and offer MK2 soon to be given more orders by the Army/Airforce

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Apr 2011 10:54

here is the link for copyright purposes
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 301846.xml

$5 billion is a tremendous amt of money and shows the confidence of the end user in every aspect of the rig. its likely the largest ever order in india for any domestic defence production run.

covering undefended greenfield areas in NE - good

ordering more to replace the SA2/SA3/SA6 units at northern and western bases - better (another $2b easy)

a couple more batteries to defend bengaluru and hyderabad from J-20 - best

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Apr 2011 12:11

"

We are not a foreign organization. We are not developing LCA for an enemy nation"

RamaY wrote:
anjan wrote: Right, so they are frustrated because... the Army picked them? I'm failing to see your logic here especially given the sheer size of the contract.
I was pointing the difference in those statements. The Akash team is proud to say that it is like home-made food; where as the HAL team is forced to say "we are not enemies".

IIRC, this comment is from The Tejas Story written by Air Marshal P Rajkumar, who headed the project for nine years. He had to say these words to then serving Air Force Chief in order to persuade him to attend some landmark event in development . So it was an Air Force officer on deputation to HAL who said something like that to Air Force Chief

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Apr 2011 00:19

Austin wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Apart from that, each Akash Group/Regiment is expected to have 4*Batteries with 4 mobile launchers@3 Akash SAM each. This brings the total to 48 ready to fire missiles. Assuming 5 further reloads, we're talking about 240+48=288 Akash missiles per regiment/Group. Which is quite acceptable, IMO.
Looks fine , the 5 reloads are quite high , I would expect 2 reloads per Akash Group.

All signs indicate IA's Akash Regiment is much larger than an Akash Group. We are consistently hearing reports which corroborates that an IA's Akash Regiment is equivalent to around 5-8 IAF Akash Squadrons (10-16 batteries). This is equivalent to 3 to 4 Akash Groups (at 4 batteries each).

Look at the numbers below as quoted from Prahlada:

Singha wrote:The Rs 14,000 crore ($3.1 billion) contract already has been signed by the army and BDL. The company is expected to make 500 missiles per year, and the first batch will roll out by September 2012. “All the missiles under this order will be of the same version,” Prahlada says.

Why would BDL produce 500 Akash missiles per year if the IA Akash regiment is only equivalent to one Akash Group (each with 288 missiles as rohitvats is pointing out)? This means for an order of 2 IA Akash regiment order, BDL would be able to produce all in just one year or so. It does not make sense to have that much capacity for an order of just 576 missiles.

But for an order of 2,000 Akash missiles, it does make sense to be producing 500 missiles per year. 2,000 missiles for 2 IA Akash Regiment points to around 8 IAF Akash squadrons (w/ 1,000 missiles on order). As we know, each IAF Akash squadron possesses 125 Akash missiles (or to do a simple breakdown around 62 missiles per battery). The numbers may differ slightly between the IAF and the IA ... but it is highly unlikely to be substantially different.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Apr 2011 02:06

Singha wrote:here is the link for copyright purposes
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 301846.xml

$5 billion is a tremendous amt of money and shows the confidence of the end user in every aspect of the rig. its likely the largest ever order in india for any domestic defence production run.

covering undefended greenfield areas in NE - good

ordering more to replace the SA2/SA3/SA6 units at northern and western bases - better (another $2b easy)

a couple more batteries to defend bengaluru and hyderabad from J-20 - best

GD, These are needed for the Paki baburs coming on line. PAD/AAd can take care of BMs like Hatf/Ghauri etc. Also shows the need now.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Apr 2011 03:11

GD, These are needed for the Paki baburs coming on line. PAD/AAd can take care of BMs like Hatf/Ghauri etc. Also shows the need now.

+ the cost should be over some 5+ years. If it includes support, etc, then it should be over some 10ish years at least.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Apr 2011 21:42

srai wrote: All signs indicate IA's Akash Regiment is much larger than an Akash Group. We are consistently hearing reports which corroborates that an IA's Akash Regiment is equivalent to around 5-8 IAF Akash Squadrons (10-16 batteries). This is equivalent to 3 to 4 Akash Groups (at 4 batteries each).

srai, can you tell me what is a difference between a Group and a Regiment? When the number of batteries in the present ToE in a Regiment and Group are same, why will suddenly the Regiment be that much bigger than an IAF Squadron? And btw, the SA-6 equipped AD regiments are called Groups in IA.

And a more fundamental question - what will IA do with such a large formation? Especially, when such a large regiment will be nothing but composed of multiple Akash Groups? After all, each Akash Group is one single operational entity.

From the deployment perspective - IA will need a Akash Group (or missle regiment as they are known) for each of the Strike Corps at minimum to protect the mechanized assets. That is the main reason those ASPL are mounted on T-72 chasis - so that Akash Group can keep pace with mechanized forces.

Why would BDL produce 500 Akash missiles per year if the IA Akash regiment is only equivalent to one Akash Group (each with 288 missiles as rohitvats is pointing out)? This means for an order of 2 IA Akash regiment order, BDL would be able to produce all in just one year or so. It does not make sense to have that much capacity for an order of just 576 missiles.

You are basing your argument on the assumption that what Dr. Prahlada says about how many regiments IA intends to equip. He could be plainly wrong. And I think he is.

Just because he uses the 2,000 number and regiments in same breadth does not mean that IA Regiment has that many batteries. And why shoud it be? have you considered how such a large formation will be deployed? What is the efficacy of such a formation? It will after all be just a conglomerations of multiple Akash Groups. What use is that.

IIRC, IA has two SA-6 Groups - this will need replacement as well new regiments will need to be raised/converted. Those 2,000 missiles will be used to equip multiple regiments - which need to be spread across various formations. A single Corps may end up with more than one Akash Regiment in it's AD Brigade.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2011 23:16

Interesting points Rohitvats. You are basically saying multiple regiments, as part of the two SA-6 "Groups", which will actually be tasked to individual formations

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 May 2011 12:28

HELINA air to surface missile to be ready by 2013

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 May 2011 12:51

chackojoseph wrote:HELINA air to surface missile to be ready by 2013

This is a very good news. Really hoping that all goes as planned as this is a crucial project for LCH.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 May 2011 12:56

i have kind of lost all hopes for any DRDO products except for those which cannot be imported

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 May 2011 13:54

chackojoseph wrote:HELINA air to surface missile to be ready by 2013

More information available here.
Excerpts

Saraswat said the initial trials of the missile from ground-based system have been successful and work will now begin on its integration with the helicopters.

Under this programme, work is expected to begin by the end of this year on development of short range surface-to-air interception missile system in collaboration with France.

On the work-sharing arrangements between the two sides for the programme, Saraswat said, "The design and development would be totally indigenous and only a few things such as the production technology and seeker would be from the partners (MBDA)."

In the partnership, the DRDO will also seek the production technology for the mass production of missiles in the facilities of Public Sector Undertaking Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL).

"When you want to produce large numbers, you have to have an automated assembly line. For missiles, we don't have that automation system in our production facilities... What we are looking at in these new programmes is that production technologies of BDL are also improved so that the rate of production can be increased," he said.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 May 2011 22:18

Karan M wrote:Interesting points Rohitvats. You are basically saying multiple regiments, as part of the two SA-6 "Groups", which will actually be tasked to individual formations

Ah!

I think when DRDO chiefs in the likes of PC Jain and Dr. Prahlada are talking about "regiment" they are really talking about the "SA-6 Group" sized order. From SIPRI database, IA ordered 25 SA-6 systems in the 1970s, which was put into the 2 "SA-6 Groups" that we know of. This indicates that each "SA-6 Group" has around 12 SA-6 batteries (or in IAF equivalent terms, 6 IAF Missile Squadrons w/ 2 Combat Flights/Batteries each). As per various news reports, the numbers being reported are similar to this, such as 2,000 missiles (if IAF order numbers applied, it comes to around 1,500 missiles for 24 batteries), 500 units/year production capacity, > $3 billion order etc.

So it would seem that the terminology of "regiment" is what is being "misused" by DRDO and News Reporters. The word is actually being used to refer to a "SA-6 Group" level of order.

rohitvats wrote: srai, can you tell me what is a difference between a Group and a Regiment? ...

As far as Akash Group goes, this is a term coined by the DRDO/DRDL to denote 4 batteries working together with GCC and 3D-CAR in a more effective operational employment. However, IA's vocabulary on how it uses "Group" is different as it denotes a larger formation for its SA-6 AD system (with around 12 batteries). Yes, in a typical artillery parlance (world-over), 4 to 6 guns make up a battery and 4 to 6 batteries make up a regiment. So in this sense, the DRDO/DRDL "Akash Group" concept of 4 batteries is a "regiment" equivalent--if used in typical sense of the word.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 May 2011 22:34

the key takeaway from the Helina article is we lack the production technology to make vast number of high quality missiles in a automated manner and are seeking it from France. that we are weak in seekers is not a big secret as even AStra is using a imported agat seeker for now.

we are not going to be able to make 500 akash missile with high quality every year unless we get hold of the production and test technologies needed from the west. perhaps this is also a side strategic goal of mrca type things.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 May 2011 07:52

Goodbye Nag for another decade or so.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 May 2011 08:27

Chacko ji did it worsen after the chassis announcement ? Should we also bid good-bye to HELINA?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 May 2011 08:48

HELINA "looks" safe as the customer is different. It is not just NAMICA. You will get my reaction in some time in an article.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 06 May 2011 09:49

chackojoseph wrote:Goodbye Nag for another decade or so.

Advanced version of NAG with LOAL is under development as well as man portable one.
NAG in its current form can be best served as a TD with small orders to recover cost and for time being.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 May 2011 13:13

jaladipc wrote:NAG in its current form can be best served as a TD with small orders to recover cost and for time being.

Groan!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 May 2011 19:54

suryag wrote:i have kind of lost all hopes for any DRDO products except for those which cannot be imported

i have kind of lost all hopes for any DRDO products except for those used by the Navy.

Kersi

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 May 2011 09:02

Any!

Akash gentlemen? What about the remaining 2 Missiles of the IGMP?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 May 2011 09:28

Trishul has demonstrated all the technologies. There are no customers anymore. Nag may be limited to LSP. Nag varients may be sold to customers other than Army.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 May 2011 10:09

WE had hopes for a NAG resurgence but doesnt look like it will happen.
Chacko-ji Trishul is the least known of the five missiles, can you write an Obit for it, describing its life, achievements and death?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 May 2011 10:52

suryag wrote:Chacko-ji Trishul is the least known of the five missiles, can you write an Obit for it, describing its life, achievements and death?

Your wish is my command. I'll do it ASAP. I have some god literature on it.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 May 2011 10:58

Thanks sirjee

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 15 May 2011 17:26

There were supposed to be tests of Agni I,II, K-15 etc by this time of the year. Still no sign. This is disturbing. After all, we need operational tests of these missiles on a regular basis that are not related to R&D/adding new features and are solely for the purpose of confirming reliability. These tests to some extent have recently happened for Agni I. But more are reqd for Agni II, Agni III etc. Operational testing and deployment shld be top priority.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 May 2011 08:05

chackojoseph wrote:
suryag wrote:Chacko-ji Trishul is the least known of the five missiles, can you write an Obit for it, describing its life, achievements and death?
Your wish is my command. I'll do it ASAP. I have some god literature on it.

I too want to see it. Start from Wings of Fire quotes about IGMP initial batch.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 May 2011 09:12

Ok. I am in process of taking permissions for some info. I cannot post it without concent.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 May 2011 12:19

Well all of the missiles of the IGMDP were initial generation technologies, which are being supersceded even in Indian service. They are at least 2 gens behind the best systems in the world today.

The Prithvis and the Agni 1s and 2s are being / will be superceded by the Shaurya, Agni 2AT, Agni 3, and Agni 5 systems.
Akash will be superseded by the Akash II.
The Nag and the the trishul might end up as TDs, but the Nag might see limited service, until there is a newer Nag-2 under development that we haven't yet heard about.

There are so many SAMs under co-development that there isn't no trishul-2.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 May 2011 13:37

There is no older gen tech in IGMDP. They wanted the best avaliable in current situation. NAG is a 3rd Gen.

Agni 2 AT, 3, 5 etc need different system as the ranges are different and require such technologies. Akash is very much current gen.

Trishul is also current gen, but, the requirement for its characteristics are not there anymore.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 May 2011 13:54

Chacko,

Am not sure about the Trishul requirement being not present. If you look at the SpyDer or the MRSAM projects. The Surface Python fits the requirement which was to have been met by GL Trishul requirement to a T. The Interesting point for me is that the SpyDer was purchased after the Trishul project was declared completed.

So ignoring all other aspects of the issue. I conclude that the project failed to meet the desired parameters and was scrapped in favour of both the Barak and the Spyder.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 May 2011 15:23

I am working on the article. I will give your answer there. Wait for it to come online. You can have a conclusive opinion then.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 May 2011 04:10

Our QRSAM, MRSAM, LRSAM and any other SAM JVs all have inputs from the Trishul program, George Kaka declared Trishul a Technology demonstrator and buried it, but it is getting a new life with these JVs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 May 2011 10:52

have deliveries of Sypder systems started? if not, when is the eta?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2011 11:25

cheenum wrote:Our QRSAM, MRSAM, LRSAM and any other SAM JVs all have inputs from the Trishul program, George Kaka declared Trishul a Technology demonstrator and buried it, but it is getting a new life with these JVs.

Read some of my reports on dying Trishul project

http://frontierindia.net/trishul-sam-mi ... quirements

http://frontierindia.net/iaf-initiates- ... ishul-sams

http://frontierindia.net/trishul-sam-and-the-indan-navy

http://frontierindia.net/trishul-sam-project-closed

i will have to dig out why IAF orders did not materialse.

Then there is a Trishul Song. You will see that in the next article. is sums up what happened.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 May 2011 12:00

Sad why the trishul was not accepted. Also a technician lost his life during the test

It should have been deployed atleast on the second line of frigates like the leander class to finetune it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2011 12:03

Trishul failed because they could not make its MMW 3 beam guidance work consistently till the end , the IN went to the extent of commissioning the Betwa class frigate without its main PD SAM for quite some time in the hope all glitches with trishul will be rectified but in the end it didnt and they had to go for Barak-1.

The other services as usual were not interested as other system like Spyder was available via global tender.

Ofcourse MOD just gave its a sweet covering letter to close the project.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2011 20:20

I too recall its the 3 beam guidance that was a hit or miss. For sometime the radar altimeter(SAMEER, Mumbai) to take on the sea skimming missiles was an issue.

In lessons learned I would say the 3-beam guidance was challenging and not fully realised at sea. The sad thing is it was supposed ot leverage existing technologies(existing Fire control radar from Holland etc) and give quick development for an easy win for IGMP. Same with Nag.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2011 22:59

Gentlemen,

The three beam guidance was finally proven in repeated test flights. The IN wanted more modifications to the system for specific threats but said as they had standardized on the Barak-1, there was little point in going for the Trishul. The IAF & IA also changed their mind later on, even after successful trials and said they preferred Fire and Forget missiles for their next generation SHORAD systems, hence the SRSAM project. Bottomline, 3 beam guidance was made to work, but the services now want something even more advanced. Of course, the missiles will not be as inexpensive as the Trishul, seeker equipped missiles do not come cheap.

Also, do not write off the Nag just yet. The Army requirement for a CITV for the Namica is not an impossible task for DRDO to achieve. The Army has already indented for 443 missiles and 13 launchers at BDL and BEL. There is every chance the order may be increased.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 May 2011 00:10

Karan M wrote: Also, do not write off the Nag just yet. The Army requirement for a CITV for the Namica is not an impossible task for DRDO to achieve. The Army has already indented for 443 missiles and 13 launchers at BDL and BEL. There is every chance the order may be increased.

Exactly, my feeling.