India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Alliances of the Air: Shashi Tharoor

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 32/English
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by NRao »

vardhank wrote: Wise words from Shapiro. They're getting plenty of other sales, and will continue to do so. Especially given the post-Geronimo mood in Washington, hopefully the relationship strengthens, and the US feeds a growing realisation that not getting a sale from us is still better than gifting F-16s to Pak.
There is economic, politics and THEN there is strategic.

EVEN if there is very little of the estimated $50 Billion that goes the US way, the strategic value will always remain till some ground reality changes. Conversely, the strategic value/relationship could decline but the economic one one remain very high (as in the case of Sino-US and also Indo-Sino - strategically India and China at beating each other up, but in economics they are, relatively, the best).

Strategic does not have to mean that the two entities are politically or economically aligned.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by NRao »

The MMRCA decision, IMVVHO, is a technical and a political based decision. Not a strategic nor one based on economics.

Like I said earlier, the decision to leave it purely at technical is a political decision.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Kailash »

Per this link, UK might be operating Rafales from their AC than the JSF !!

Ironic and there is no talk about the navalized typhoon anywhere..
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Singha »

naval rafale will likely be half the cost of JSF and still suffice for beating up folks like libya or iran.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Murugan »

Second big snub for America

3 May 2011, 1901 hrs IST, AGENCIES

It’s the second major snub for the US from India which has decided to reject two major defence agreements, CISMOA and LSA, which would have allowed US access to Indian defence communication as well as access to Indian ports and airports. US President Barack Obama had pushed for this proposal during his November visit to India. But Govt sources say that the Union Defence Ministry and the armed forces have decided against the agreements.

The absence of CISMOA restricts US from transferring certain high-tech equipment to India. US wants to enhance the ‘interoperability’ of the Indian and American forces, as also ensure secrecy of its C4ISR (command, control, communications, computer, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) systems, through CISMOA. Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) envisages Indian and American militaries providing logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft on barter or an equal-value exchange basis.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Second-big-snub- ... 372209.cms
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by vardhank »

^^^
I don't think it should be seen as such. In a way, the USA is learning to accept the fact that India cannot be seen as an ally in the Cold War sense, i.e. a vassal. The nuclear agreement, for example, quietly bypassed the NPT and CTBT problems. The US tried again with CISMOA and the LSA - and lost. And I believe, soon enough, it will come up with a new, only-for-India agreement that basically means pretty much the same benefits, but without the restrictions we dislike. In the end, the USA's nothing if not pragmatic, and if that means bypassing their own laws, they'll do so.
Possible alternate scenario: we won't see this happening right away, but when the US needs to use our bases in some situation, an agreement will be thrashed out, and nuts to the laws.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by manum »

Singha wrote:the aftermath of geronimo makes it politically tough for POTUS to give huge freebie packages to TSP, unless some major co-operation like starting a push into waziristan by PA, handing over other A-list fugitives is seen as coming from rawalpindi.
the inevitable price of such major co-op will be internal attacks on the PA and west punjab by the pakiban.
nothing will stop POTUS to Hope Lotus will bloom in Paki land...Didn't you see UK PM asking countries to be sober on puppy paki...and USA will ask more questions, may be distrust a little bit more...I always wonder as if UK feels inclined towards Paki because its one who caused it...

I dont think we still understand the relation of west to Pakistan...Paki's are bad habit, junkie friend whom you can take anywhere, all they need is a place to stay and will share cigarettes...but are good time to be with, kick around, lecture rather than speaking to empty wall...and so on...many benefits...

Nothing will change, did they ask about whereabouts of other fugitives already in Pakistan...Dawood is in America's top ten most wanted fugitives with AQ no. 2....
There is no point thinking about what west might do...it's better to keep our collar straight up and keep walking in our direction. I am wishing India to use its forces and MMS to grow balls..
Last edited by manum on 04 May 2011 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Lalmohan »

the only reason that current UK leaders 'lean towards' pakistan is due to the large pakistani community in key electoral seats in northern england and their influence on the westminster mp distribution - plus the fact that 80%+ of terror threats to the UK now originate in pakistan and/or with pakistani origin immigrants

in all the OBL tamasha, not much space has been given to 5 UK nationals of 'asian descent' who have been arrested photographing the sellafield nuclear plant in the past few days and booked under anti-terror laws

now they were not the west london sikh bird watching society members who got lost, or coventry gujerati nature ramblers association...
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by shiv »

Lalmohan wrote:the only reason that current UK leaders 'lean towards' pakistan is due to the large pakistani community in key electoral seats in northern england and their influence on the westminster mp distribution - plus the fact that 80%+ of terror threats to the UK now originate in pakistan and/or with pakistani origin immigrants
OT for this thread - but this is exactly the vote bank argument allegedly used in India to go soft on Pakistan.

Funny innit? The policy of blackmail and negotiating with a gun to one's head works.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by JTull »

Lalmohan wrote:in all the OBL tamasha, not much space has been given to 5 UK nationals of 'asian descent' who have been arrested photographing the sellafield nuclear plant in the past few days and booked under anti-terror laws

now they were not the west london sikh bird watching society members who got lost, or coventry gujerati nature ramblers association...
Widely reported here as being Bangladeshi and all in their 20s.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Singha »

by any chance have they ever visited KSA or Pak for say 3 months of religious tourism ? ;)
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale News has released info on all Katrinas delivered to date to the French Air Force/Navy. An interesting figure is 38 twin-seater Rafale ‘B’ aircraft have been delivered vs only 30 single-seater Rafale ‘C’ aircraft. Guess the French too love the twin cockpit system! Please click on link below…

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... ivery.html

If Katrina is chosen and if we exercise (which is a near certainty) the option of 74 additional aircraft, that will bring the total to ~ 200…which will make the IAF the largest Rafale operator. If the 'M' variant wins the naval contest, the number is only going to get higher. Only a total of 180 are being planned for delivery to the French Air Force/Navy.

Some new pics of Katrina…

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... f-day.html

This one is truly beautiful…Katrina dispensing her flares. The flash from the flares gives the impression of a light desert camo (most prominent below the front left canard), but the grey below is a dead giveaway! Someone please identify those missiles? Are those MICAs? I know Katrina well...but I am zero on her accessories :)

Image
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by tejas »

^^^ Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by kmc_chacko »

will GoI show interest to ask France to buyback 52 old Mirages and replace it with 7sq single seater & 7 twine seater Rafaels total 252 fighters i.e., 14 sq
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

^^I guess that can be worked out only if Rafale makes it as the final option, and a new RFP is required for the buy back deal. I doubt Fr will do anything about it.. rather chew 2 or 3 ransom billions.. all in the name of katrina fascinations! /sarcasm onlee.

There are many countries who are trying to dispose of their old mirages.. no takes yet. /cost!
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by manum »

SaiK wrote:^^I guess that can be worked out only if Rafale makes it as the final option, and a new RFP is required for the buy back deal. I doubt Fr will do anything about it.. rather chew 2 or 3 ransom billions.. all in the name of katrina fascinations! /sarcasm onlee.

There are many countries who are trying to dispose of their old mirages.. no takes yet. /cost!
I guess its better to bargain more on Mirage upgrade more rather than replacing them with Rafale...It'll be on safer footing.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by narayana »

Rakesh wrote: If Katrina is chosen and if we exercise (which is a near certainty) the option of 74 additional aircraft, that will bring the total to ~ 200

Any Chances of splitting the order between 2 contenders if the numbers go beyond 200?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by ramana »

You will lose the advantage of increasing the qty. (lower unit costs) by splitting the order and not to mention the increase in logistics.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

plus you have double cost for contractual agreements, dual production line setup, dual tots, etc.. it is a high risk silly decision if they do so.

sarkozy's would not be shaken by calling her katrina, and would go about saying he has with him what he needs and done that and this.. they would not lose a penny on this deal rather lose mmrca. honestly, imho, france does not care if we have Rafale for IAF. All it matters for them is are we paying what they ask.

otoh, imo, germany and eads nations would under the name of profit shares, and equity partnership, would bring down the cost way so much it is hard for katrina to dance anymore. just business speak.

meanwhile, if IAF says katrinia it shall be, then our babooze will have tough time with sarkozy's men and women to get a good deal on this puppy.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

tejas wrote:Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.
You are correct Saar. Here is a sideshot of the IR (pointed nose) and EM (stubby nose) versions of the MICA missile.

Image
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

wow! amazing pic, and depicting superb surface/finish quality of these weapons.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by NRao »

Is it not amusing that the IAF is the largest operator of Su-27/30 series, and now could become the largest for the Rafales.

The French just may have to accept a name change here.

Not to mention the PAK-FA derivative - FGFA too.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

so, technically it may be possible to have additional t/r panels on three angles, one below the nose and two adjacent leading to canards. that should be considered as increased space for the aesa panels. Now, it is left the designers about what else is out there that this can't be done.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Gurneesh »

OT but as per wiki: India has ordered 272 MKI. Russia already has 322 Su27 plus 48 Su35 to be delivered. China has 203 Russian built Su27/30 plus around 100 J11.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by tejas »

No need for the Saar title, boss. BTW welcome back I was used to seeing your daily postings more than ten years back!

PS, minor nitpick, the ER version has the sharp nose and the IR version the stubby one. I know looks don't count for anything but I have been in love with the Rafale since the first time I saw it. The Tiffy is one of the ugliest beats I have ever seen.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Raja Bose »

Rakesh wrote:
tejas wrote:Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.
You are correct Saar. Here is a sideshot of the IR (pointed nose) and EM (stubby nose) versions of the MICA missile.
I think you got it the other way round - shouldn't IR be the stubby nose one with the window?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by NRao »

((he is trying to confuse the confused Pakis.))
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

tejas wrote:No need for the Saar title, boss. BTW welcome back I was used to seeing your daily postings more than ten years back!
I am SDRE...I am like this onlee. I am learning, so everyone is my Saar.
tejas wrote:I know looks don't count for anything but I have been in love with the Rafale since the first time I saw it.
Why do you think she has the name Katrina? :mrgreen:
tejas wrote:The Tiffy is one of the ugliest beats I have ever seen.
Another reason why I gave her the name Shatru...but some BRFites did not like the name.
tejas wrote:PS, minor nitpick, the ER version has the sharp nose and the IR version the stubby one.
I think you got it the other way round - shouldn't IR be the stubby nose one with the window?
NRao wrote:((he is trying to confuse the confused Pakis.))
OH GREAT!!! Now the Pakis know as well. Thanks a lot!!! :evil:

But jokes aside, I just wanted to see if you guys were awake :)
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

narayana wrote:Any Chances of splitting the order between 2 contenders if the numbers go beyond 200?
In addition to what Ramana and SaiK have said, 200 aircraft (just for the air force alone) will give us tremendous leverage in any negotiation with the French. It would be foolish on our part to not see the opportunity here. We have to look beyond transfer of technology. It is only when you aim for the sky, you hit the trees...or however that saying goes. The French need to be squeezed for more. It is time for us to do a reverse dhoti squeeze.

You know India has arrived, when we have the financial resources to purchase an aircraft in greater quantity than the host country who developed the aircraft or has in its own air arm. This is an exciting moment to be in India...MMRCA notwithstanding.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

Per janes, feb 2011, the rbe2-aesa went into validations for tranche-4 (2013 delivery), gone on operations trials for the past couple of months by now. Any latest updates/pics on these?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

found one link with pic:
Image

any more close ups? I see about 886 t/rs
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

Some old links...

Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/De ... /?pid=1157

RBE-2 AESA Revealed
http://**************/2008/1 ... ealed.html

Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - 02 Feb 2011 press release
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... on_Rafale/
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK wrote:any more close ups?
How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... c.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

awesome!
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by kmkraoind »

If Rafale is chosen it it possible India to sign to buy 100-150 of French 2000-C/D/N variants (French old stock) at 15-20 mil a pop and choice of upgrading any much and any where at its will. If so it will definitely add numbers till 2025 till AMCA and FGFA are realized to their full potential.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by andy B »

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:any more close ups?
How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... c.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.
Err is it just my dirty kafir mind or does Katrina look like she is coming forth to gimme a smack with those lips....? :mrgreen:
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Dileep »

Well, your dirty kafir mind can also think about Katrina's CockPit.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Singha »

can anyone who is not math challenged count the number of modules?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Samay »

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:any more close ups?
How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... c.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.
:eek: if I had to select, I would have fallen for katrina without second thoughts.
Katrina is when technology meets french art :D
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